NOTE: This page is in desperate need of revision and expansion. In the meantime, I suggest you use Rationalwiki’s Manosphere Glossary.
For newcomers to this blog, here’s a handy guide to some of the strange acronyms and lingo you’ll encounter here and in the “manosphere” in general. (For a definition of that term, see below.) I will update this entry periodically as needed.
First, the acronyms you’ll see most often here:
MRA: Men’s Rights Activist
MRM: Men’s Rights Movement
MGTOW: Men Going Their Own Way MGHOW: Man Going His Own Way.
Ok, so what do those terms mean?
MRM: The Men’s Rights Movement: A loosely defined, but largely retrograde, collection of activists and internet talkers who fight for what they see as “men’s rights.” Unlike the original Men’s Movement, which was inspired by and heavily influenced by feminism, the self-described Men’s Rights Movement is largely a reactionary movement; with few exceptions, Men’s Rights Activists (or MRAs) are pretty rabidly antifeminist, and many are frankly and sometimes proudly misogynistic. Those who oppose the MRM are generally not against men’s rights per se; they are opposed to those who’ve turned those two words into a synonym for some pretty backwards notions.
MGTOW: Men Going Their Own Way: As the name suggests, MGTOW is a lot like lesbian separatism, but for straight dudes. MGTOW often talk vaguely about seeking “independence” from western and/or consumer culture, and a few MGTOW try to live that sort of zen existence. But most of those who embrace the term have a deep hostility towards and/or profound distrust of feminists and women in general. Many MGTOW refuse to date “western women” and some try to avoid women altogether. I think the Man Going His Own Way acronym MGHOW adds another layer of confusion to an already awkward acronym, so I use MGTOWer instead.
Some other terms and acronyms you’ll run across here:
Anglosphere: Countries in which English is the primary language, or, more narrowly, those countries that used to be British colonies. They are full of evil Western Women (see below).
Incel: Involuntarily Celibate. A term, and identity, adopted by some dateless guys (as well as some women, but it’s the men we’ll focus on here). While there is nothing shameful about being dateless, or a virgin, or having a really long dry spell sexually — most of us have been there at some point — the term “involuntarily celibate” seems to suggest that the world owes incels sex, and that women who turn down incel men for dates or sex are somehow oppressing them. For those (male, straight) incels who are genuinely socially awkward or phobic, this can be a self-defeating stance that can lead to bitterness towards women. And often does.
Mangina: Derogatory term used by MRAs, MGTOW, etc. to describe guys who disagree with them — e.g., me. You can figure out the various connotations of this term yourself.
The Manosphere: The loose collection of blogs, message boards, and other sites run by and/or read by MRAs, MGTOW, and assorted friendly Pick-up Artists. The primary source of material for this blog.
NAWALT: Not All Women Are Like That. Dudes in the manosphere make so many ridiculous and untrue generalizations about women that they’ve come up with their own little acronym to describe the most common reaction to their nonsense: “not all women are like that.” Remarkably, many seem to think that making a reference to NAWALT is actually some sort of clever rebuttal of their critics.
PUA: Pick-up Artist. PUAs are obsessed with mastering what they see as the ultimate set of techniques and attitudes — known as “Game” — that will enable them to quickly seduce almost any woman they want. There is a vast literature on “game” online, though PUA (insofar as it is not complete bullshit) is at its essence simply a male version of the age-old ploy of “playing hard to get.”
Western Women: Also known as WW. Evil harpies, at least according to many in the manosphere. Contrasted with “foreign women,” a term that (in the manosphere, at least) sometimes refers to all women outside the Anglosphere, but often refers to a subset of these women from poor and/or Eastern countries, mostly Asian, who are regarded as more pliable and thus more desirable to haters of “Ameriskanks” and other WW.
But see, that’s what I’m talking about. r/malefashionadvice is for men who want to go a little above and beyond, like a lot of women do when they want to show off. Sure, it’s not hard to dress decently, but it’s tough to really play yourself up in that department, because there’s so little advice targeted at men. I think more young men should do it tho, because that and your weight are really the only factors you have any control over. Anyway it’s just a suggestion.
As for r/seduction, you can just pick and choose, if you have objections to some of their methods. I think this about most of the “pick up artists”. No one says you have to follow them mindlessly, but they do offer some good advice.
Sure, I agree, but the problem is that the bad advice they also offer is so tremendously bad. And a lot of the “good stuff” is wrapped up in utter evil, so you end up doing the right things for the wrong reasons and carrying on the behaviour pattern inspired by insidious idiocy because it occasionally works out for you.
Say: “Don’t be needy”, which is to say “Don’t drown someone in your affectation, and respect their boundaries, because very few people like being made the center of the universe six seconds after meeting you”.
Good advice Great advice. Advice I would give to anyone.
But most PuA’s support that with: “Because women are evil, fickle creatures who enjoy toying with your emotions, and turning the tables on them makes their hamster run wild and makes you control the frame of the interaction and pass their shit tests”.
And the result is a bunch of idiots who pretend not to be desperate in order to run a power play on someone else, attempting to mind control them into submission… instead of just not being desperate, and needy and creepy.
Nuance matters in social interactions. And good advice given with bad reason behind it works out badly, because you’ll do the wrong things. People aren’t zero-sum.
Bwahahahaha! Wipes away tears of laughter.
Today on Man Boobz: Watch as DefJam brings failing to flounce to a new level when he poops in every thread possible.
I read that as “welded”. Which wouldn’t be a bad idea in the case of someone like GGG.
Part of the problem with the incels is that they do carry on like sex (for men) is a neeeeeed and that they’ll die if they don’t get it. Or rather, if they don’t get to shove their poor deprived peens into a vagina. Have you encountered GGG (governmentgetsgirlfriends)? If you haven’t, don’t read him: he’s seriously creepy and, if his whole schtick isn’t an elaborate troll, possibly dangerous. This is a guy who complains that his mother wouldn’t fuck him.
Dumping the label and saying depressed defintely sounds like a good idea. Much easier, I hope, to focus on the problem and get help (fingers crossed).
Bwahahahahaha!
You haz ALL THE WIN for this comment. With extra scented candles.
Christmas presents! We don’t do Christmas on this side, but Louis and I do over There. We haven’t started putting up decorations yet. When we do, there’ll be socks and stockings all over, ‘cos we have them for the furries. That’s nineteen Christmas stockings to put up, and Louis gets inventive about where he nails ’em. 😛
RE: Kittehs
The ‘sex is a physical need that I will die without’ thing is actually pretty common, and it always boggles me. Dude, evolution gave us HANDS. USE THEM.
Also, taitaisanchez is genderqueer; don’t know what pronouns are preferred yet.
taitaisanchez’s comment that approaching women isn’t a problem, because they’re people, goes to the heart of why everything PUAs say is not just unhelpful, but poisonous. They don’t see us as people.
“Also, taitaisanchez is genderqueer; don’t know what pronouns are preferred yet.”
I know; did I use pronouns?
Sorry, I didn’t mean to direct that towards you, Kittehs, it was to someone else and I forgot to tag it. Pardon!
No probs! I couldn’t remember if I had by mistake. 🙂
Ah! Preferred pronouns! All of them! I openly embrace both sides of traditional gender binary roles and I also am really hip to modern ideas about the tearing down of gender and gender ideologies. So I really embrace all pronouns.
LBT – The idea that ‘sex is a physical need that I will die without’ is so much crap. Who actually thinks like that? *thinks back to the last 3 months of lurking* Don’t actually answer that. *shudders*
For me, sex is part of the spectrum of expressions of physical intimacy that isn’t fulfilled in my life. It’s an emotional need. I can live for the rest of my life with out it, I may just not be particularly happy with it.
“Ah! Preferred pronouns! All of them!”
Greedy! 😛
“For me, sex is part of the spectrum of expressions of physical intimacy that isn’t fulfilled in my life. It’s an emotional need. I can live for the rest of my life with out it, I may just not be particularly happy with it.”
Well put. ::resists temptation to add All About Me anecdote::
but Kitteh, I would Like to here your Anecdote anyway! I love hearing such things.
Though I suppose In this case, I’m not helping your Temptation any, so feel free to ignore me.
Thing is, that’s not actually losing agency in a sense that’s anything to do with society and how it treats you, it’s an internal feeling. It would be like saying that people who’re scared of driving aren’t allowed to drive – they are, the government is willing to give them a license and the rest of society doesn’t care if they drive or not. It’s unfortunate for them that they can’t bring themselves to drive in that it limits their life in various ways, but the problem originates with them, not society.
Also, on the issue of whether or not sex is a need, I think that’s a big part of where the whole incel idea goes off the rails. A lot of people who identify as incel seem to be equating the need for emotional intimacy and touch in a general sense with the need for sex, and those aren’t actually the same things. They could get their need for emotional intimacy met via friendships, including friendships with other men (I’m assuming they’re mostly straight men here, since that’s clearly what they assume), and the more general craving for touch met via hugging friends or family, massage, some contact sports…there are lots of ways to be in close physical contact with other people that aren’t sex. But most people who identify as incel seem to have put all their emotional eggs in one basket and decided that if nobody seems to be expressing interest in sex with them then they’re being unfairly denied not just sex but any sort of emotional or physical intimacy at all. Which I think is part of what people find so frustrating about talking to them, and also part of what potential partners find offputting if that attitude leaks out irl as much as it does online.
(Also, random fistbump on the Kpop thing, since you’re the first other person I’ve seen on here who has any interest in it. Definitely proves the 90% of everything is crap rule, but there are a few people who I like.)
I do find myself wanting to tell people like GGG to get a dog sometimes, but in his case I’m worried that he’d do something horrible to the dog.
I can sort of see why the all the eggs in one basket thing happens, because a lot of societies encourage men to think that way, but not only is it not helping in the case of the incel guys, I also wonder how much the avoidance of other kinds of intimacy is reinforcing the problem in the first place. Emotional intimacy is something that people get more comfortable with with experience, so it’s usually easier for people who have close friends to become close to potential partners too, and being comfortable with non-sexual physical intimacy tends to take a lot of the pressure off in terms of sex too. I feel like the lack of any sort of close relationships is contributing to the issues the people who call themselves incel face in dating in all kids of ways. If you haven’t hugged a friend in years, and then you find yourself trying to initiate sex or even a goodnight kiss…that seems like a lot of pressure.
I think the cool quotes with the background thing is done using a block quote tag. If it doesn’t show up right, does anyone know how to do it?
Anyway. The thing that’s missing out of this analogy is that you drive things, but you intimately(typically at least) engage with people. Being able to connect with other people is tough. There’s no DMV manual, there’s no wikipedia article, there’s no set in stone guide on how to do it. Which is where a lot of people, not just ‘incels’, trip up.
In terms of being able to make do with out sex and just getting your needs met with just touch… The problem is most people have libidos and sex drives. That’s a separate issue, but when intersected with the inability to bond and attract people, the situation then becomes a personal catastrophe. I think the short circuit a lot of MRAs, MGTOWs, etc. make is the putting all of their eggs in one basket mistake though. So I think we agree on that point, but I think though that the missing nuance of how libido interacts with the need to emotionally bond with other people really underestimates the impact of sex as a social experience.
ALSO. Fist bump on KPop! I was kind of into KPop in the late 90’s/early 2000’s when the dancing game craze hit the arcades. Starian is a ridiculously catchy song THAT IS STILL SOMETIMES IN MY HEAD THESE DAYS.
It’s good stuff, but I generally don’t have the attention span to keep up with music. Sturgeon’s law may state that 90% of everything is crap but never underestimate exactly how large 10% can be.
In an actual not-internet Oscar Wilde quote, “I can resist anything but temptation.”
Briefly, the emotional need for intimacy vs desire for sex thing: in the last few years I’ve had the emotional intimacy with the person I want to have it with, and it no longer matters that earthly sex isn’t A Thing.
But the fact that sex involves other people and what they want actually makes “incel” as a label even more offensive, because if someone wasn’t allowed to drive they’d be within their rights to be pissed off and complain that society isn’t letting them, but when what you’re saying society isn’t letting you do is have sex, well, that just doesn’t come across as respecting the agency of other people at all.
I get what you’re saying about the connection between libido and the desire for emotional bonding, but I think it’s a learn to walk before you attempt running thing. It would make sense to tackle the less complicated/potentially less scary kind of intimacy/bonding first, plus I feel like if someone has years worth of unfulfilled emotional needs of the sort that for most people are met via a whole network of friends/family/lovers and they then meet one person and expect that one person to meet all those needs it’s kind of a recipe for disaster and puts a lot of pressure on that one encounter that wouldn’t otherwise be there.
On the KPop thing, I’ve been really disappointed in the 3rd and 4th generation acts so far other than a couple, but the 2nd generation bands are getting to the age where some of them are able to go off and do the interesting stuff that they wanted to do in the first place, which has been fun to watch. Plus I was following the JYJ lawsuit with great interest, because the industry as a whole is never going to produce better material and treat the artists more fairly unless artists get a bit more freedom. The fact that they won, and that Hang Geng and Park Jung Min won their lawsuits against their agencies too, is a pretty good sign, as is the mainstream success of the Brown Eyed Girls.
None of us are entitled to sex, love or intimacy, but we are entitled to our own agency with it.
You haven’t lost your agency. You can still approach someone and say (in whatever form), “wanna fuck?”.
After awhile of with out it and being unable to attract it, I lost the feeling of agency of being able to participate in sexual and intimate social spaces.
That is not anyone else’s problem. It’s not their fault, nor their responsibility. I’ll get back to this.
The involuntary part of “involuntary celibacy” is pretty much that lack of agency.
Nope.
Involuntary means one has no ability to effect the outcome. If I hit my humeric nerve really hard against something, my pinky is going to tell me about. Hit it hard enough (as I once did playing racquetball in high school) and it may radiate all the way to my thumb and leave my arm limp for several minutes.
The problem we tend to face is that when your problem is that you’re not likable, who is your advocate? Who speaks up for you? Where do you go? What do you do? It’s kind of ridiculous.
You are. Because it’s not my job to like you. It’s not anyone’s job to fuck you. It’s your job to find people who like you, for yourself. I’ve had lots of people I wanted to spend time with (and by no means all of them in a sexual way) not give a shit about me.
I’ve struck out with women lots of times too. When I was younger, and more callow, I might go for months on end without any of the women I was interested in wanting to tumble me.
And (this is the important part) no one was to blame. Not me, nor them. They had agency. I had agency. I did (and sometimes didn’t) make my interest plain. They made their lack of interest plain. That’s the way it goes.
No one, but you, is responsible for getting your ashes hauled. I have some pretty esoteric interests. There are women who find them offputting. So, those women and I aren’t going to be good fits.
That’s just they way it is. Doesn’t matter how much I think she’s hot, cool, intelligent, fascinating, what have you. if a guy who studied/taught military interrogation and likes to bait trollish types on the internet, and disappear for weeks a time on a motorcycle isn’t her cup of tea; then I’m not the guy for her.
Which is her absolute right. If I am not willing to change my interests, then she’s entitled to not want to be involved with me, even to the limited amount required for a one night stand.
Oh, Jammies: You weren’t going to bother with us. Don’t try to pretend this is different because you are trying to help someone who “isn’t one of us”. You had to be eyeballing the recent comments to know this was going on.
You care.
And you’re less than bright.
Pecunium, you’re being a bit harsh, but I’m guessing you aren’t caught up yet and will get a better feel for what ze meant. Also, your motorcycle, my ass, they need to meet.
And you have esoteric interests? Why I never! (Enjoy the snow? I did not)
“It would be like saying that people who’re scared of driving aren’t allowed to drive – they are, the government is willing to give them a license and the rest of society doesn’t care if they drive or not.”
You’d be amazed the shit I get for not driving. Society definitely does care. Totally off topic, but it bugs me to no end when people insist I Have To get my license (including *drum roll* my psych)
Regional maybe? I gave up my license when I moved to London and never got another one, nobody here seems to care. If I lived in LA it would presumably be different, but we have good public transit here, and Mr C has a car, so…
Maybe. Nobody in Pittsburgh seemed to give a shit, but I didn’t really associate with people who thought they were in charge of me, outside work, and my jobs where either student employment (not excepted to have a car in the city, plus, free bus fare so of course you use it) or the law firm (downtown, no parking, everyone takes the bus).
Here…well, obviously I could do public transit since I did in Pittsburgh! And if not, then I must get my license, I need the freedom and independence! (To panic somewhere else?)
Pittsburgh busses — mostly quiet other than people chatting, college kids, business people, homeless people minding their own business, people in aisles move, eventually, might need an elbow but rarely act like it’s your problem that they’re in the way. New haven busses — noisier than most concerts I’ve been to (EA excluded cuz damn does she know how to work the bass speaker range!), buskers, not the musical sort, the card trick sort, loud and demanding, jam packed with people who don’t understand how to get out of the way and just stare at me, etc.
So terribly sorry that I can handle asking college kids to move better than I can handle having middle age men try to demand I pay them to be tricked at their game and glare at me.