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Today’s barely coherent rant comes courtesy of the Men’s Rights subreddit, on the topic of women wearing fancy outfits at work and oppressing all the men.
Under the riveting headline “Women have the burden of their appearance in the workplace myth,” an angry if somewhat confused Men’s Rights Redditor called Unhappy_Doubt_355 lets loose on all those women who complain about having to dress up fancy-like for the office while men can wear suits and no one cares. Because that gives women all the power or something.
I grew up listening to this theory, that women have to take care of their appearance all the time, which adds to the burden of their existence. It is only way more difficult, that they are forced to accept the constant flirting of men in the workplace, which is nothing less than harassment, as well as the “social expectations”, that are being forced on them.
Sounds plausible. Indeed, I need no make-up, my clothes are simpler to choose, my hair easier to take care of. I am not really being hit-upon in the office. My social expectations are not being reinforced on me verbally. But then I noticed how society functions.
It is that they need to do all these things to reap the benefits, that an avg. woman in society has, which an avg. man cannot even fathom.
And what benefits do women unlock by wearing the fancy work clothes? He doesn’t say. I guess he truly can’t fathom it.
Women don’t need to be so well-dressed in the office. They are allowed to wear simple clothes, every day the same if they want, crew-neck blouses and suits.
They don’t however.
Yeah, well, Elizabeth Holmes pretty much wore the same outfit every day when she was a CEO, and look what happened to her! 11 YEARS IN FEDERAL PRISON! Granted, there was also some massive fraud involved but still. Anyway, I’d be curious to see what happened to a woman not engaged in fraud who wore the same outfit to work every day. Somehow I’m guessing she’d hear about it.
Furthermore, they like their translucent clothes, form-fitting dresses, heels, make-up and all the other nice stuff. I kid you not, last time I was in the office, I saw the panties of both of my colleagues in 4K and one of them also had a visible bra.
Uh, what? I really need to hear the other side of this particular story because Unhappy_Doubt_355 kind of strikes me as an unreliable narrator.
They garner attention, that they claim later on that it is necessary. No it is not. It is just, that if you choose to dress like a man, you will be getting the attention of the avg. man. That is none.
I guarantee you that women dressing like men at work are going to get a lot more than “none” attention. I mean, the woman below wore a suit to work (albeit without pants), and look what happened! The whole place caught on fire.
Ok, that didn’t happen. It’s just that Midjourney doesn’t always understand prompts.
The societal expectations (which are being so incidiously differently defined, based on context) are another issue. A woman needs to be thin, beautiful, good mother, successful, rich or whatever else they claim that society enforces on them. Not really. Nobody enforces that on them. They want that, so that they enjoy the female attention. A woman might also be an adipose, she will just have the experience of a man with an average BMI and 20% fat, which is on the healthier side of the scale.
[citation needed]
It is also ignoring the fact, that a man is being born with those and opting out is kinda difficult.
Born with what? Opting out of what? What are you even talking about?
It is not easy to work in female-dominated professions (not only because of prejudice and scorn, but also because these professions seem to attack males)
Ok, he’s starting to make sense. I am constantly being attacked by nurses. Much like this.
He continues:
it is not easy to stay at home being a dad,
Well, it’s easier than being a single mom trying to raise kids while working
it is not easy “chickening out”, it is not easy having an average income.
Well, it’s not easy having an income that is, on average, less than men’s. Which is what women have, if you haven’t noticed.
But yes, apparently women are being brough at such an uncomfortable position if asked about a family plan (which I get, it can be difficult, but then again, it is not a sexist thing).
A family plan? Huh? I’m not going to get on his case for this because I have no idea what he’s talking about, and it’s probably an ESL problem.
Or women are being driven out of manly professions because they heard a dick joke, whereas men have to live in this brutal environment and not say a word.
There aren’t a lot of women who leave a profession because they heard a dick joke once. There are some women who leave a profession because of endless harassment and discrimination.
I hear your pain ladies, but all you are doing is claiming that it takes some work to gain the benefit of your advantage on men.
What “advantage on men?” You still haven’t said.
Naturally, this being the Men’s Rights subreddit, most commenters thought that Unhappy_Doubt_355 made a lot of sense.
According to a commenter called, er, WeEatBabies:
Women have zero burden, they have affirmative actions for school, work.
Grants to start enterprises.
Child support, alimony, unfair family court system …
If anything was a minor burden to a woman, it would instantly disappear by laws.
And nobody cares how they dress at work.
Also, you should see the price of suits and ties, it’s far from cheap!
Iamthebackupplan disagrees with the OP, but only because he hates fat women.
If women cared about their appearance more than men, there wouldn’t be more obese women than obese men.
I don’t know how many times I’ll have to repeat this on this blog, but the rates of obesity for men and women are pretty much THE SAME, according to the CDC. Obesity isn’t a crime–at least, I hope not, because I’m obese–but if it were one, the authorities would be rounding up the same numbers of men and women. Yet somehow MRAs have come to believe that women are much fatter than men. I think they’re convinced that the existence of fat women is a crime against their boners.
IceCorrect mumbles something:
Men have the same expectations as women, but men are expected to men up, while women have privilage to complain about social expectation (even if most of them are done by other women)
amey_wemy states:
When one is used to privilege, equality feels like oppression
Which is true, of course, if applied to men, not women. As more than a few people have pointed out, it’s kind of the whole driving force behind the Men’s Rights movement in the first place: men angry that certain privileges of theirs are being slowly eroded and hallucinating that women in “form-fitting dresses” (or whatever) are stealing all the rights for themselves.
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Let’s not forget the additional Black Tax (which admittedly affects whatever gender) to qualify for office respectability: the hair texture your ancestors, Nature, and/or Heaven gave you is deemed unprofessional.
My first thought upon reading the title was that I went on a casual date with a woman the other day who wore yoga pants (apparently her usual attire unless required to dress up for a occasion). I did not feel very oppressed by this.
Upon actually reading the blog entry I think David is having fun playing with AI art, and also, this guy saw the outline of bras and panties under clothes? OMG, the oppression IS real after all!!!
So with the family plan thing, I think he might be talking about how when you’re interviewing women, you can’t ask us anymore if we plan on having kids. Because companies used to do this and if women said yes, the company would then decide that hiring her would be a waste of time because “oh she’ll just quit when she gets pregnant anyway”. And of course dude thinks that asking that isn’t sexist…
These guys have created their own victimhood oppression narrative. They are oppressed by their own lust and take no accountability for their lack of emotional regulation. They are triggered by everything. Make up, bras, skirts, dolls, workout clothes.
“…but men are expected to men [sic] up…”
Yes, but every time we try to talk about it you shout at us for hating masculinity.
Probably part of the LessWrong diaspora. <sigh>
Where TF does this loser work that his female co-workers are wearing office clothes that show their lingerie in detail? Methinks he’s
a) describing his fantasy and hoping to get the other chuds to believe it
b) is looking at the women through the “x-ray specs” from a 50 year old comic book
c) just flat-out lying
d) is so lacking in couth he can’t avert his eyes
e) all of the above?
Still, the AI art is fun.
@GSS ex-noob:
Where TF does this loser work that his female co-workers are wearing office clothes that show their lingerie in detail? Methinks he’s
a) describing his fantasy and hoping to get the other chuds to believe it
Now that Penthouse Forum is defunct, these guys have to air this stuff somewhere. I just wish they’d acknowledge it as plain old kink rather than High Octane Outrage Fuel.
(It’s like Gor—which would be far less annoying if John Norman would just admit he’s writing bondage porn, rather than presenting it as The Way Male-Female Relations Should Be.)
Some of what they’re complaining about is due to patriarchy hurting men.
I’m nonbinary, fat, and studying for an office job. Let’s see how I’m treated when I wear what the men are expected to wear (which is absolutely my preference).
@milotha
Okay, so men are outraged at women wearing attire.
Of course, they’d be just as outraged (and so would everyone else) if women wore no attire, but that’s beside the point.
I remember a few years ago some teacher got in trouble on social media because her body had curves, and it was like the internetz had never seen a woman with an hourglass figures before!
Of course it was a black woman, so how much of that was people using the criticism of her outfits as an opportunity to engage in anti-blackness versus people being outraged that she was wearing clothes is anyone’s guess.
I’m not sure where this guy works. Personally, I’ve never seen office workers wear clothing that lets the light through — with the possible exception of such clothing being worn with an opaque, fitted top underneath. I think he’s the one who likes [the idea of] their translucent clothes.
Here’s a Tumblr thread(1) about the dissonance between “Look feminine (which means pretty, which means sexy!”) and “Look professional (which means “Don’t do or be anything that some guy might conceivably blame for his boner!”(2), and how that translates into clothing marketing and availability; profusely illustrated.
https://archive.li/TWys5
(1) Note that senatortedcruz is not even remotely the individual named in the URL: https://senatortedcruz.tumblr.com/aboutme
(2) That’s one reason that modesty dickies (https://www.amazon.com/Kosher-Casual-TeeNeck-Layering-Cleavage/dp/B0716LYLYB) to fill in plunging necklines are a thing: they serve to comply with certain religious dress codes and to camouflage prosthetic breasts, but also to ward off the Almighty Boner.
In the late 1970s a good friend of mine was reprimanded by HR at work for wearing a (very smart) trouser suit instead of a dress. Apparently it “unsettled the men”. At the same workplace, she and I were in the elevator one day, and a man got into the elevator and sneered at the umbrella my friend was carrying, and said “Isn’t that a man’s umbrella??” To which she replied “I can’t see that it’s got balls”.
She is still a snappy dresser. And still takes no crap.
Isn’t this just a rehash of Warren Farrel’s,”Men are oppressed by women’s bottoms,” whinge?
@Lizzie
How do you even gender-code an umbrella? Colors? Handle shapes? Lisa Frank art?
I don’t know how you gender code umbrellas, but the late Queen had 100 colour coded ones to match her various outfits.
If I had to guess what makes an umbrella masculine or feminine, it’s probably the shape and color. Masculine umbrellas are black with a shallow arc, as evidenced John Steed in the Avengers. Whereas feminine umbrellas have a deeper arc and are brighter colors. But honestly, I couldn’t care about any feature of an umbrella, aside from whether it protects me from getting wet in the rain.
@Lizzie; @Allandrel; @Alan Robertshaw; @Dave:
A bit of advice I’ve heard is that one way to reduce the likelihood of your umbrella being stolen or Found And Kept is to pick an ostentatiously feminine design: pink and/or floral and/or kawaii—the rationale being that Girl Cooties will deter roughly half the potential thief pool.
Can’t say that I’ve ever put this to the empirical test, though. First, a meaningful study would entail asking the responders invasive and awkward questions (“Hey—that’s mine! And by the way, what are your pronouns?” There are a fair number of AMAB people who wouldn’t mind sparklypoo rain gear, and a fair number of AFAB people who hate pink on principle in part because they’re sick of having it thrust upon them.) You might also want to control for such variables as the severity of the weather, and whether a responder had children, pets, and/or fragile valuables to protect.
Second, I just plain can’t afford to spring for a bunch of sacrificial umbrellas For Science. My own habit has been to keep a stash of Vimes’ Brollies (usually the collapsible
$5.00$7.00 sort from discount stores), because I keep mislaying them on public transportation or having them break in the wind. My Me color is teal when I can get it.@Dave:
If I had to guess what makes an umbrella masculine or feminine, it’s probably the shape and color. Masculine umbrellas are black with a shallow arc, as evidenced John Steed in the Avengers. Whereas feminine umbrellas have a deeper arc and are brighter colors. But honestly, I couldn’t care about any feature of an umbrella, aside from whether it protects me from getting wet in the rain.
The fun potential features—as featured in any number of spy, crime, and martial arts movies—are, of course, illegal as hell most places.
This is true and would be a good point if the average man who wore suits owned 20 of them. The thing is that they don’t.
@Full Metal Ox
That’s brilliant. And it helps to explain why I’ve been able to hold onto my most recent umbrella for almost twenty years. It’s black and beige, but it’s also big, big flowers. All my other umbrellas were solid black or blue.
Allandrel- well, any clothes or accessories can be gendered, and rigidly enforced – as far as I recall my friend’s umbrella was black (a serious colour for men only) and sturdy looking (nothing flimsy or delicate about it) and had a functional curved handle (rather than a handle that was difficult to hold). The 1970s remained rigid in office environments despite the beginning of fashion freedom in the 1960s. God help the woman who needed or wanted to wear lace-up flat shoes, the criticism would be both contemptuous and relentless. And bare legs were unthinkable – obliging women to spend significant money on flimsy pantyhose.
@Lizzie:
In the late 1970s a good friend of mine was reprimanded by HR at work for wearing a (very smart) trouser suit instead of a dress. Apparently it “unsettled the men”.
A generation later, Hillary Clinton would catch all sorts of flak for making pantsuits her professional uniform.
@Lizzie
As a woman, I am so glad that I missed the panty hose mandatory phase of fashion. I’m not working in jobs where high fashion is expected either, but wearing panty hose every day would be so so yucky. I remember my mom complaining about them when I was a child!
@KatinBoots
You’re also lucky you never had to deal with petticoats. They were hot and scratchy.