The Andrew Tate discourse has now reached the “‘left eating itself “stage, with some ostensible leftists blaming his success on the failure of leftists and feminists to speak to the desires and insecurities of 14-year-old boys.
On Twitter, self-described “libertarian socialist” and “ultrafeminist” Vaush, the YouTube livestreamer, laid out the case against the “unnecessarily repellent” left.
Others concurred:
Some called explicitly for an “alternative Andrew Tate.” In a reply to Vaush, one wrote,
But the idea of an alternative or “leftist Andrew Tate” is a contradiction in terms. Even aside from the trafficking allegations, Tate is a douchebag, a manipulator, a sociopath. He wins over teenage boys by playing the bad boy and exploiting “girls” the way many adolescent boys wish they could. He plays to their insecurities, telling them that, yes, indeed, they are the victims of an evil feminist conspiracy. He feeds their persecution complex. He attracts would-be bullies by being a bully himself. In short, he represents everything that leftists and feminists are or at least should be against. What would a leftist or feminist Andrew Tate even look like?
Some on Twitter pointed out the absurdity.
But if we don’t need an “alternative Andrew Tate,” we do need alternatives to Andrew Tate. We need to put forth a healthy vision of masculinity to combat the toxic masculinity that Tate embodies. We need to promote a non-exploitative sexual and social ethic. We need to address the problems faced by young men without telling them that they’re the biggest victims in the whole wide world.
Of course, to no small degree, this is what the feminist left is doing already.
Could we do a better job of it? Of course we could. Would it be helpful if there were a number of charismatic “good guy” celebrities out there embodying feminist ideals? There are a few, but of course, there could be more.
Should we beat up on ourselves because we have no “Andrew Tate” of our own? No. We don’t need one, and frankly, neither do the 14-year-old boys of the world.
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@Anonymous.
I will read your link – thank you! This part you quoted is so spot on and I see this over and over and over and over again.
One
Oh but we’re changing! Why do you think there’s so much backlash on these Youtube streets against Black women and women of color who are putting it all out there? We’re not finna be anybody’s “mammy” no more. Do the crime, do the time.
As far as “white activists” – they’re the only ones holding onto outdated narratives. Most of them come from privileged backgrounds and are shielded from the realities of life as a Black woman. Check the Black femicide rates in the USA.
Surplus to Requirements
— It still statistically remains the best way to achieve financial stability in the world today. If not university, some bonafide higher education/training needs to be there. There’s just no way around it unless one is a trust fund baby. But today young people want to go from high school to millionaire internet “influencer” in 6 months or less. And there’s grifters like Tate telling them it’s feasible.
— A lot of it is just youth. Eventually most of them will grow out it. Especially if they invest and lose money in one of Tate’s scams or similar and find themselves with nothing. Then they’ll lower their heads and go to college or get a normal job. The problem is the internet showing them the shiney lives of influencers who supposedly made it. A normal healthy middle class ife is no longer attractive. This goes for girls and young women too. But eventually they all grow up.
Ninja Socialist
— Tate and JBP are opposites and attract opposite types. There may be some overlap but the types who stan Sneako and Tate are not going to stan JBP and vice versa. While both are problematic, at least JBP gives an example of a sensitive man who’s in touch with his feelings and not afraid to cry publicly (ok, probably too much). He also gives an example of a man who openly displays affection and respect for his wife and promotes honesty and fidelity in marriage. And he displays the qualities of buckling down, getting an education and doing honest legal work for a living (before internet fame). I’m not a fan at all, but his “values” are the exact opposite of Tate’s.
Steph Tohill
— He’s only 25% black. Culturally you don’t see him in many (or any?) videos hanging out with Black people. The only exception was Just Pearly Things show which is the only time I saw him with Black women (who were her guests).
Even before he “converted” (I don’t believe it’s sincere) to Islam he talked about having Muslim friends in the UK. The majority of Muslims in the UK are from South Asian background, Pakistani and Bangladeshi. Now he’s living part-time in Dubai so he would have increased his number of Arab friends. He’s not hanging with African Americans or British Africans.
@Love Is All: So he has never hung out with Black people of any nationality and IMO probably is only playing up part-African descent for online (barf) “thug and OG” cred. Whee, more stereotypes.
Would be interesting to find out when he started bragging about deadbeat daddy’s genes. Now, of course, it’s all in service of the grift.
And of course his “conversion” is fake. Just wanted to get in solid with the sheiks and their money. He’s still swilling booze, but so do the oligarchy in MENA/Gulf.
There are some pasty-white US people who are culturally blacker than he is. Probably in the UK too. I myself am nearly translucent, but I was sorry to miss local Juneteenth this year, because food. My folks were from the Deep South, where the cuisine is heavily Black-influenced. My favorite way to shut down other white people who start to whine about the changing demographics of my town (no majority race here) is to put on a big smile and say “Yeah, it’s great, the food is SO much better! White people food is so boring!” And, y’know, they can’t really argue with that particular point, so they realize that despite my paleness, I am not going to indulge their racism.
Anyone who isn’t a damn fool knows Black/other PoC women, not men, have it the worst. Sadly, there are a lot of damn fools. gestures at everything
Cynthia G explains it best in this video. Regardless of the % of “black” in Andrew Tate (& it’s only 25), he presents as “a man of no color” – her words, and the world perceives him as such. This she says is important because the Black Manosphere (who loves Tate) is claiming he finally got his “negro wake-up call”. What that means is “the system always gonna keep an uppity brotha down”. Cyn G’s take on it though is that because he is white/a man of no color, and because white people have pride, neither white men nor white women are going to allow him to exploit white women in trafficking or bring white men’s global reputation down to that of just a pimp collective. Whereas if he were black and trafficking black women, although some black women might raise a hoot-n-holler, black men (who she calls struggle bandits) wouldn’t do anything about it and keep on supporting Tate because they have no pride or their pride is in the pimp collective reputation due to hip hop/rap influence and black media.
Good discussion here.
I’d like to add that Vaush does have a good point about 12 year olds on Twitch. Boys are just feeling hero worship for discovering what seems cool. It’s much better to ask a 15 year old why he admires Tate, and show them how to spot grifting in Tate. But you’re going to lose a lot of creditability with that young teen when you tell him that he “CHOSE to subscribe to a fascist ideology because he has an investment in maintaining his position in the social hierarchy”. Saying that to a young teen makes the language sound out-of-touch and dogmatic, and Tate saying that Tate-like bozos who agree will sound better to him.
They don’t want an alternative. This is a men’s platform for men’s issues and the host Justin, who says he “loves masculinity” nevertheless says he gets accused of “feminist talking points” “liberal brainwashing” and “making men weak”. Gabor Mate says here that Jordan Peterson is “full of rage” and advocates for hitting children as a form of discipline. He also says the “antidote to chaos is not order” as Peterson claims, but HARMONY. So “alternatives” are out here, plenty. But the types attracted to Tate aren’t the types to appreciate them.
@Love is All we Need
Given that I’m cis male, upper-class (or possibly upper middle class, the definition is slipperier than I’d like it to be) and as white as a hunk of chalk, I can’t say that I know of those realities myself.
I can only defer to those who have the lived experience that I will never possess and support them in their struggle to the best of my limited abilities.
@Anonymous
A bit OT, but it’s actually pretty straightforward, people forget that class in this context is defined by capital rather than by income. Basically, the upper class is people whose living comes from rents and/or investments; they don’t need to work for a living. The middle class is people who own and run businesses/solo practices (and in many cases by extension to people who could do that if they were inclined; doctors and lawyers are generally defined as middle class even if they work for a hospital or large firm on a salaried basis, because they have the social capital to be able to hang out their own shingle if they want to). The working class is pretty much everyone else: people who are paid wages or salaries and hired and fired at the discretion of others (usually directly or indirectly members of the middle and upper classes).
@Alan Robertshaw
I have enjoyed how much info you’ve shared here over the years. I agree with your take on Bas Rutten. I remember how much one of my 15 year old relatives admired Joe Rogan because of his cool MMA background. The shine eventually came off because of Rogan’s bad Covid advice, along with growing up.
There is a book on this concept of the gender bargain, analogous to the poor white person’s race bargain, by Rebecca Alvarez. It’s called Vigilante Gender Violence and I reckon acknowledging that this is a worldwide phenomenon is a good start.
@Dalillama
… by that definition are techbros such as Twitter employees considered working class? I mean to be honest I have long thought that nifty offices and high salaries have been cover for easily fireable positions and incentives not to form a tech union (degree pride alone would probably take care of it, because ego)…
Black women have never before in the history of the United States been so divested from the interests of Black men than today. There’s was a time when we would never call the police on our men. That’s over. The Black Manosphere has sealed their fate. They’ve made it loud and clear how much hate they have for Black women, dragging us online for the whole world to see. We’re done. I’m not saying “all” Black men, but there’s a pattern. The Black women online crying “why don’t you love us?” and singing Tammy Wynette are getting fewer and fewer.
I think the nail in the coffin was when Pearl Davis/Just Pearly Things old video of her talking about how she “snitched” on her Black coach trying to hit on her (after she had turned 18 and graduated high school) surfaced. On a progressive Black panel a Black woman asked her why, if she is against the MeToo Movement, did she get her black ex-coach fired. Pearl replied “because I had proof and MeToo didn’t”.
Now, did the Black Manosphere thank that sister for “having a brother’s back”? No, on the contrary, they made vitriolic videos about her and how she was “jealous” of Pearl’s success and how horrible she was for coming at Pearl and trying to corner her and “bully” her. Mind you, Pearl is white.
They used it as an example of how “bad” Black women’s attitudes are and “this is the reason Black men are becoming passport bro’s” etc.
So this is how it is in the so called “black communitah” here in the States. These are the men we black women are supposed to be out here in the streets marching for.
Colin Kaepernick had the damn nerve to put an image of an unambiguous Black woman on the cover of his “Abolition for the People” book. What?! He’s biracial and (like most famous athletes) dates white (or Latina/ambiguous/”exotic”, anything but Black with 4c hair). Yet when he wants to show the “type” of woman who should be out in the streets protesting (on behalf of men/male criminals) and making radical politics, it’s an unambiguous Black woman with a 4c afro.
Do you see a pattern here?
Love is All We Need
So true! You describe well something I’ve been trying to put my finger on for awhile. Your description of JBP reminds me of another popular Youtuber: Elliott Hulse. Over the years, I’ve found the brouhahas around him amusing (Elliott bugs fitness communities too). PUAs like Elliott’s advice on lifting, but not Elliott’s happy marriage. You don’t need to dominate her if she admires you & she’s not over-burdened. Elliott has always had Red-Pillers among his viewer base, and he tries to cater to them (too much), but the different value system shows. Elliott vid titles sound like something from a manosphere blog, but then he only spends 30 seconds giving his opinions on alphas/betas or women, and then spends the rest of 8 minute video talking fitness. It cracks me up when Elliott tells his PUA audience “Quit fornicating and study your bible”.
There’s a difference between men/kids who want to respect themselves and those who want to be contemptuous of women, Libs, LGBTQIA, etc...
Lurker777, Hulse changed a lot over the years. He used to be really new-agey and spent a year “getting in touch with his feminine side” – wearing jewelry and pastels and other stereotypical stuff. He said he wanted to relate to and understand women more. That’s back when he was still a Bahai, albeit probably a freelance one. He changed a lot when he got “red pilled”. Started touting all the “masculinity” b.s. rhetoric. Left the Bahai faith and his spiritual journey to return to the Catholicism of his parents. I have nothing against that but it’s made smaller his mind and heart. Buddhism and all the other paths he gained so much from are now “satanic”. Equality between the sexes is one of the main tenents of the Bahai faith and Elliot now rejects that in favor of Biblical patriarchy. And he’s a regular speaker at the wacky 21 Convention which is run by another Manosphere grifter Anthony “Dream” Johnson who appointed himself “President of the Manosphere”, and gives an actual annual “Presidential Address”. He’s a joke. The 21 Convention can’t seem to make up its mind. One speaker will talk on marriage, family, religion and “traditional values” while the next speaker will talk on how to get laid and regular PUA promiscuity goals.
Another problematic view that Elliot holds is that interracial relationships probably aren’t a good thing. He himself is the product of his parents’ interracial union and his own kids are multi-racial. But ever since racists started viewing and influencing him and he was asked this question by one of them, that’s the answer he gave. So either he doesn’t believe but said it anyway, to placate, which is a bad, OR he now believes stuff like this.
Hulse moved his family from a liberal, very pro-LGBTQ city to the suburbs and now their latest move is out to a rural, right-wing area. I have a feeling it has to do with the direction his kids, at least one of them was going. I saw a photo of her in a t-shirt with a rainbow and LGBTQ logo or supportive expression on it and shortly after they moved.
The stable rock who has seen Elliot though all his various phases, trends and stages has been Colleen, his wife. I often wonder what she thinks about all his changes.
Yeah, I’d also ask what a “leftist Andrew Tate” even means. Which aspects of him do they want to export, so to speak? Misogyny? Let’s not. Being a sports star? Projecting a “manly” image? Fine, if you don’t crap on other kinds of gender expression or body image, and I’m sure there are many examples already.
Snark and memes? Eh, there are plenty non-right-wingers in that category who are popular with teen boys, though the examples I can think of off the top of my head are two White YouTubers who aren’t necessarily leftist – Drew Durnil who talks about geography/history stuff and Jreg who did the “Political Compass Rap” (but maybe the Potential-Tate-Fan Demographic would find that stuff nerdy?)
As for the “class” discussion, I found @Dalillama’s definition interesting…
It made me think how the outcome of “What ‘class’ is this person?” might change radically depending on the categories stressed. Like if I take myself as an example:
1) source of income (Dalillama’s model): working class
2) annual income: lower class if counting just me, but lower middle class if counting my parents
3) education: upper class (have a graduate degree, am doing a 2nd undergrad)
4) property: middle class (grew up in a house, will probably inherit property)
In conversations, I’ll usually call myself “middle class” or “lower middle class”…depending which I think gives me more credibility at the time, tbh. But if I said “working class” I’d feel like I’m trying to claim struggles I didn’t go through. Also I live in Canada, so I’m lucky in terms of education fees. Most of the time, U.S. universities are way more expensive.
@Big Titty Demon
Yes, they are, and yes they are. They really hate hearing this fact, as a rule.
@Dalillama
So where would a grad student with plans to be an academic researcher type be classified? I’m not sure what kind of means of production would apply there given that the main means of production (or so I think) for intellectuals is the brain, which can’t be taken away from me while it’s still attached to the rest of me. On the other hand, seeing that whatever position I end up in will likely be one dependent on wages it might fall under the purview of working class.
@epitome of incomprehensibility
While I’d still like to keep my identity hush-hush, I guess I can give this a shot using the categories you listed as a mental exercise for myself :
1. Source of income: whatever “intellectual”/”intelligentsia” is considered these day- I know it’s often shifted between working class, middle class, and upper class depending on the society and circumstances.
2. Annual income: currently not applicable, but family is upper middle-class or upper class (not ultra rich but probably wealthier than a decent fraction of people)
3. Education: Upper class, college graduate and working on graduate degree
4. Property: upper class; grew up in a house, and currently live in a condo owned by my parents that I will likely inherit
@Love Is All: I am enjoying your comments and learning a lot.
Like I posited a couple pages ago, Tate might have a few African genes, but other than that, he’s a white guy for all intents and purposes. You show his picture to 100 White people in the US and at least 90 would say he’s white. Might find a few who’d say “he’s got something ‘ethnic’ maybe?”
But here in the land of the one-drop rule, that’s a white boy. With white victims. If he’d had Black victims, no one would GAF. (In the Gulf, his new buddies DGAF regardless of the sex slaves’ race or gender)
@epitome: I agree with your division of classes in the US. I have been middle to upper middle class most of my life, though before I die I’m going to be lower middle class or below (hopefully later than sooner, but I ain’t betting on it.) Turn of the century, clearly upper middle, but have been sliding downhill ever since.
Techbros are asshole class, regardless of actual salary/wealth. They can be living with too many roommates in a crappy apartment and still are glibertarian wannabe rentiers.
@epitome of incomprehensibility
This is the reason that I would struggle to call myself working-class as well, when I become a full-time technical worker. In fact I have lived below the poverty line before; I have been that person with 3 jobs struggling to make ends meet. It’s one of the reasons I am so massively pro-union and, if cornered without all facts in a situation, will always take the pro-union stance and cannot be moved from it (police unions being the exception).
I understand dalillama’s classification system and agree with it to some extent, but as a person soon to be in a techbro-y field (I’ve chosen the public service option, because I literally can’t be paid enough to work with actual techbros: but I know what my expected pay range in my specialized field would be) I already make more now as an intern than I have in all my previous jobs throughout my life. By a lot. There is no comparison in the amount of struggle involved in techbro fields vs traditional “working class” fields, and a techbro that says he has it so hard and works so much more than a working class schlub and that’s the reason for the high salary… is lying.
Yes, the jobs are insecure in at-will states (which is basically all of them) but… a person on a 100k+ (sometimes 3-5x) salary just… their life is not as hard as someone struggling to make ends meet that can’t afford their basic meds and doesn’t eat more than one meal a day. Facts.
Re: Class
There have always been workers who got high pay and nice perks, but who didn’t (and to a great extent don’t) have a large amount of long-term capital*. They often identify more with the middle or upper classes than with their own**, precisely because they are shielded from many of the hardships and difficulties that normally come to mind when someone says “working class”.
Past that, there’s class interacts in complex ways with both caste and status. So in the US, for instance, academics are treated socially (status or stand) as being equivalent to members of the upper middle class (i.e they’re seen as equals to doctors and lawyers, but the social superiors of building contractors or owners of a plumbing firm), even though they’re rarely paid anywhere near as much, because a university education is a traditional prerogative of the gentry. Conversely, because the US is a brutal caste system, a Black person whose made a fortune in real estate is economically upper class, but socially there’s places they will never be welcome, and they can be assaulted by the police on their own doorstep.
*Homeownership usually doesn’t represent enough capital to leverage oneself into a higher economic class, for
**This is called false consciousness.
@At Love is All We Need
THIS! They keep think this is a failure of those on the left / liberals / feminists to “provide an alternative” but they never stop to think that for many young boys an important part of their sense of their masculinity is the ability to subjugate women. Tate’s misogyny attracts them and they will only seek out alternatives offering the same narrative.
@Love is All We Need
This is oft claimed but everything depicting his father refers to him as “black” and or “African-American”. Which makes him birracial. Who he has “hung out with culturally” (whatever that means” )is neither here nor there.
He’s no different to Zendaya or Lenny Kravitz.
The comment about “British-Africans” is odd (especially given this ignores all the other non-African Black-Britons.)
I don’t hang out with any British-Africans either but that has not changed my identity.
For the record I am not disagreeing with him pulling for his identity as a protection blanket but that’s by the by. I am talking about what he is and correcting those who think this form of excessive toxic masculinity and turn to the far right is something exclusive to young white boys and men.
@GSS ex-noob
This statement is so problematic on so many levels but I assume that you are applying a US lens. In the UK is makes no sense to refer to somebody as “culturally black”.
@LoveIsAllWeNeed
Good for her for standing up for herself and making a complaint but this statement is icky.
In the UK: 16 year old girl commits suicide after being groomed by right wing extremists and being charged with terrorism;
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/07/schoolgirl-who-faced-terror-charges-is-wake-up-call-about-grooming
In the USA: 6 year old brings gun to school and intentionally shoots teacher;
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/06/virginia-school-student-shot-teacher