The Andrew Tate discourse has now reached the “‘left eating itself “stage, with some ostensible leftists blaming his success on the failure of leftists and feminists to speak to the desires and insecurities of 14-year-old boys.
On Twitter, self-described “libertarian socialist” and “ultrafeminist” Vaush, the YouTube livestreamer, laid out the case against the “unnecessarily repellent” left.
Others concurred:
Some called explicitly for an “alternative Andrew Tate.” In a reply to Vaush, one wrote,
But the idea of an alternative or “leftist Andrew Tate” is a contradiction in terms. Even aside from the trafficking allegations, Tate is a douchebag, a manipulator, a sociopath. He wins over teenage boys by playing the bad boy and exploiting “girls” the way many adolescent boys wish they could. He plays to their insecurities, telling them that, yes, indeed, they are the victims of an evil feminist conspiracy. He feeds their persecution complex. He attracts would-be bullies by being a bully himself. In short, he represents everything that leftists and feminists are or at least should be against. What would a leftist or feminist Andrew Tate even look like?
Some on Twitter pointed out the absurdity.
But if we don’t need an “alternative Andrew Tate,” we do need alternatives to Andrew Tate. We need to put forth a healthy vision of masculinity to combat the toxic masculinity that Tate embodies. We need to promote a non-exploitative sexual and social ethic. We need to address the problems faced by young men without telling them that they’re the biggest victims in the whole wide world.
Of course, to no small degree, this is what the feminist left is doing already.
Could we do a better job of it? Of course we could. Would it be helpful if there were a number of charismatic “good guy” celebrities out there embodying feminist ideals? There are a few, but of course, there could be more.
Should we beat up on ourselves because we have no “Andrew Tate” of our own? No. We don’t need one, and frankly, neither do the 14-year-old boys of the world.
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@Dalillama
I agree with your caste and class points, but do not agree with your false consciousness point with application to the specific case under discussion. Someone at the poverty line cannot be expected to feel working class solidarity with a millionaire, and it is inappropriate for a millionaire to expect or claim that solidarity. However, this discussion has become triggering of personal trauma now so while I respect that you may respond to this statement, I will not be able to respond further going forward.
@Steph: Yes, that’s what it is in US terms. I don’t know what it is in British. Enlighten me?
The lovely and talented Zendaya and Lenny have never passed for White just for self-aggrandizement, though. Or been right wing trash. (How is Lenny still so gorgeous at 58?!)
@BTD:
Oh hell yes. The one techie-related job I had was at a university, with grad students studying both tech and medicine. Things that would save lives instead of a get rich quick scheme preying on people. And likely academia, where you aren’t a millionaire.
It depends on the area too: $100K is an amazing salary in the Midwest — in San Francisco it means you can probably afford an apartment by yourself, but you ain’t ever owning a house. And then some bigger-asshole techbro buys your company and you’re out.
Kaepernick is biracial, but that’s NBD in pro football, since most of the players are Black. (Although the owners and coaches remain all White) But his adoptive parents are white AF.
This whole discussion keeps reminding me of Don “No Soul” Simmons from “Amazon Women on the Moon” (played by David Alan Grier). No longer PC, but big laughs in the 80s.
Anyway a friend has arrived so GTG.
I’m a bit late here, just catching up on a few WHTM threads, but I’m really not loving the comments on biracial/multiracial folk tbh. Andrew Tate is no doubt using his background to grift, as that’s what he does, but biracial people are not white, literally by definition.
Debates over “how much” white or black a person has are incredibly problematic.
@Steph Tohill has already raised excellent points here, but they don’t seem to be having much impact.
//But if we don’t need an “alternative Andrew Tate,” we do need alternatives to Andrew Tate. We need to put forth a healthy vision of masculinity to combat the toxic masculinity that Tate embodies. We need to promote a non-exploitative sexual and social ethic. We need to address the problems faced by young men without telling them that they’re the biggest victims in the whole wide world.//
Agreed but isn’t that basically what Vaush was saying?
@Spleen: unfortunately Wil Wheaton is a bit of a transphobe also. Plus, as a longtime Star Trek fan, I remember when everybody used to make fun of him for being Wesley Crusher. For some, that hasn’t really gone away.
@Mish: He’s biracial strictly for profit, is the problem.
It’s not his whiteness or blackness, it’s the fact that he’s blatantly using his dead/previously absentee father’s genes for “street cred” and weaponizing it against people who disapprove of his actions and ideology. “You can’t hate me because my dad was Black, nah nah nah”. Yeah, well, so was Obama’s and look at the hatred he got and still does. Ask Duchess Meghan how being biracial worked out with her in-laws.
And BTW there are Black people I hate — only for being regressive Republicans. “Justice” Thomas can DIAF for all I care. I didn’t mourn when Herman Cain died literally because he went out shilling for Mango* Mussolini without a mask. But again, I only hate them for propping up white supremacy and patriarchy. Like Tater. I do see color, but I reserve hate for those promoting regressive ideas and government. My Mandarin-speaking neighbors are very good neighbors, but I side-eye the local Falun Gong propagandists, because I’m not into right-wing conspiracists who like Q and TFG and are anti-vax (And also anti-mixed race people)
Most biracial people just are, and still suffer prejudice, as we all know. The ones who can “pass” (like Tater) suffer a lot less, so it’s really distasteful that he’s capitalizing on some of his gene pool for teh lulz.
Skin color is only skin deep. Bone structure just below that, but evil goes all the way down to the cellular level.
Tater’s gonna have another problem if he ever renounces his nominal Islam. That tends to provoke displeasure and also fatwas.
@Yutolia: Wesley was written annoyingly (purest Gary Stu). I saw Wil speaking at a Trek con midway through TNG and he came across as a not-too bright and yet pretentiously superior annoying teenager. Many eyes were rolled. So he really has improved, if he can just lose the transphobic ideas. Also TBF nobody knew about the abuse back then.
*I’ve semi-recently become allergic to mangos. Last time I ate one, I had itching and swollen duck lips that vied with your average TikTok/Insta queen.
@GSS ex-noob, thanks. For sure, I have no problem with what you said, esp about Tate! What I’m objecting to is other comments in the thread, and especially the claim that any biracial person is white. No, they’re not.
Of course Tate is a grifting pos, that’s not up for debate. And of course some folk are horribly cynical and try to use idpol as a shield.
But my point wasn’t about any of that. I was really surprised and unimpressed to see discussion of biraciality in terms of “how much white or black” a person has, as if they must be one or the other. Not how it works (it’s also a peculiarly US-centric way of framing it, but that’s another issue).
“unfortunately Wil Wheaton is a bit of a transphobe also.”
He is? Two years ago a transphobe told him “it is genetically impossible to change your gender” and he replied with a meme saying, “I wish all transphobes a very pleasant go punch yourself in the face until you forget what planet you’re on, you piece of shit. Then when you’re done, go get fucked.”
Apparently two years prior to that, he used an automated blocklist which he didn’t realize had not just Gamergaters but also a number of transwomen blocked, but that’s the limit of what I’ve heard about him being transphobic.
Just don’t let any mango peel touch your face and you should be fine eating them. Mangos are related to poison ivy, but the irritant is only in the peel.
@LouCPurr: I didn’t know that! I will cautiously try mangos that are already peeled by someone else. Though, knowing my immune system, it’s probably too late and that last time will have primed RED ALERT to go off. That’s what happened with tomatoes — first the skin bothered me, and a year or so later it’s all of it. Alors, so much Italian and Mexican food is now lost to me. And ketchup on my fries.
@Mish: Tater’s not white, but I bet he’d been passing for years and is only lately acknowledging his African genes in furtherance of the grift.
I didn’t know what he looked like before all this, and didn’t pay attention, so I saw him as white. Only when I was informed he’s biracial did I give him a close look (barf) and say “OK, yeah.” If he passed me in the street (which he would because I’m over 60), I might or might not have clocked it. But a big percentage of our local population is some kind of bi or tri racial so I probably wouldn’t even notice. I bet I’d have picked up on the douchebag predator vibes, which can come from men of any ethnicity.
He’s got the stereotypical white boy entitlement down pat, though — probably why I clocked him as white.
If it were anybody else maybe, but the online Muslim Manosphere (yes that’s what they call it) absolutely worship Abu Tate (as they call him) and are falling over themselves to rationalize all his haram. If he leaves Islam they will find excuses for it just as they are excusing all his haram and illegal activities. They will say, “Brother Top-G is just going through a difficult time because of all the hate he received from Muslim women. Give it time and make dua. Inshallah he will come back to Islam. Even as a non-Muslim he’s more of a real Muslim than most of the Muslims we know.”
@Love Is All: Uggghhhh. 🤮
@Love is All We Need
I’m hardly an expert on Islam, but isn’t apostasy a big no-no for it?
@GS ex-Noob
Well the term “black culture” would suggest there is a black culture that unifies all black people but there isn’t. It makes as much sense as the term “white culture”. It’s really not far off saying somebody “acts black”.
And in the UK (where Tate spent most of his formative years) it makes even less sense as black people come from many different and distinct cultural backgrounds.
This maybe true but it is neither here nor there as it does not make him any less birracial.
@LoveIsAll
Re Tate and him being braced by the Islamic Manosphere – I saw an opinion piece on that which was rather interesting.
I have copied it here:
https://www.newstatesman.com/quickfire/2022/10/muslim-women-andrew-tate-islam
@Steph Tohill
Kind of dead-horse flogging at this stage, as only one person is even acknowledging it, but yeah, exactly.
I’m honestly pretty surprised at the takes on biraciality here. Wouldn’t have expected it.
@GSS ex-noob, I sincerely appreciate your replies, and your comments aren’t really the ones I have an issue with. Thanks 🙂
@Mish of the Cat Lady Ascendancy
Yep wholeheartedly agree. There is a saying I think applies here – which some seem to be forgetting – “two things can be true at once”!
@ Steph Tohill it blows my mind how “family oriented conservatives” like Patrick Bet David and Jedidiah Bila worship Tate and conveniently never mention his conversion to Islam. Ordinarily, being from Iran, Patrick has had some very strong and controversial opinions on Islam but you’re not hearing a peep out of him regarding this. All he talks about is how much Tate has “helped” young men.
Their rhetoric is that “the matrix” has come for Tate because he’s promoting masculinity and providing a “role model” for young men and the matrix wants young men to fail.
What?
@LoveisAll We Need
Once upon a time it surprised me but now it doesn’t. To them misogyny and subjugation of women trumps everything.
A bit like TERFs who get into bed with Alt-Righters. They all adhere to the old adage: “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
Patrick Bet David is not known for misogynist rhetoric. That’s one reason I’m surprised at his affinity for Tate. At around the 45 second mark starts PBD’s critique of Islam wrt women. So if this is his opinion, then why no talk about Tate’s conversion?
@Love Is All We Need.
I had never heard of Bet David but came across this. Reading it I can completely understand somebody like him being sympathetic to somebody like Tate.
https://historica.fandom.com/wiki/Patrick_Bet-David
He’s only 25% Assyrian. 😉
I can see why Bet-David (I was today old when I learned he existed) (and why is he in that particular wiki?) would be anti-Islam, what with his parents leaving the country when the Ayatollah took over and the war broke out and the Christian Assyrians were being threatened by the increasingly-reactionary branches of Islam in their home territories.
Also, I know what “Assyrian” means now, but at first glance I always think of cuneiform and kings called Assur-something. And maybe that bastard Ea-nasir and his bad copper.
I knew some girls who’d fled then, and you can imagine how unimpressed with wearing veils, dressing modestly, and the like was to them. They were always in designer clothes and plenty of makeup, and flirted like it was their job. They had big money so I’m guessing their parents were cronies of the Shah and needed to flee or die.