It’s not that complicated. If you want to learn what’s going on in the heads of the regular contributors to the incels.is forum, one of the best (and quickest) ways is to simply read an assortment of comments posted there (or perhaps several of my posts on the subject, all of which quote copiously from the original incel comments).
Hell, you can learn a lot just by scrolling through the discussion topics on incels.is. Here are a few of the topics being discussed today:
The true reason why women don’t have a personality (only men do)
having dark skinned male children is child abuse
I recorded myself playing the “White Girls Fuck Dogs” song out loud to a group of white girls walking
We all curries deserve white blonde foids as a reparation for European colonisation in subcontinent.
Incels are the most oppressed people in the world
The pissbottles I have
I’m mayo. Where is my noodlewhore? My curryfoid?
Saw a n*gger with a Becky 2day
What would push you to go full ER (in GTA)?
Anyone Else Fuck Their Pillow?
Aside from the post about murdering people, they’re actually fairly toned down today, undoubtedly on their best behavior because all the publicity they’ve gotten lately is likely to drive “normies” to check out the site. I suspect some posts about rape and/or underage girls have been deleted by the mods as well; those are both usually quite popular topics. That said, most of what they’re talking about is still fairly horrific stuff seemingly designed to make other incels even more bitter and depressed and alienated from the world.
In its report issued last week the Center for Countering Digital Hate employed a weird and cumbersome methodology that in the end tells us much less than simply immersing ourselves in incel writings does: they adopted a quantitative approach, “scraping” something like a million pages off the incels.is site so they could, among other things, count the number of times incels used specific slurs, including the weird ones they’ve made up. No, really.
Well, those are racial and ethnic slurs. In case you’re wondering what slurs they use for women, here you go.
While it is, well, informative to note that incels call women such lovely names as “hole,” “toilet,” and “roastie,” the latter because “sluts” are supposed to have vaginas that are so used up they look like roast beef, does it matter than they used “toilet” 379 times during the time period covered by the report, just edging out the old reliable “cunt” by one instance? No, not really; it doesn’t add much to our understanding that a simple list of slurs might have provided. What matters more is how these words are used, which you can’t learn without, well, actually reading some posts.
Sometimes it is useful to add stuff up. The report documents just how popular incels.is has become.
This dataset reveals that the incel forum consists of a small number of active members with interest from a much larger number of visiting users:
• 2.6 million visits a month, making a 16:1 ratio of visits to posts
• 17,118 total members
• 4,057 active members who posted in the period of study
• 406 ‘powerusers’ who account for 74.6% of all posts on the forum
The top ten most prolific posters on the site spent roughly eight hours a day there, the equivalent of working a full time job.
Another of the report’s “findings” was that a plurality of posts on incels.is deal with distressing stuff, putting the lie to those who argue that forums like this one can function as “support groups” for lonely men; in fact, they provide the opposite of support.
Analysis of the ‘tags’ applied to discussion threads on the forum shows that over a third are tagged with topics promoting expressions of anger or despair over members’ incel status. Just 5.8% are tagged with topics promoting a more optimistic outlook.
The report also documented that incels.is discuss rape and pedophilia/ephebophilia a lot, with most commenters agreeing that both are good things. But this isn’t news.
One thing that a quantitative approach can be said to do better than a strictly qualitative one is to track trends. One chilling trend: “Posts mentioning incel mass murders increased 59% between 2021 and 2022.”
While this is clearly not good news, it’s not clear exactly what it means. Does this mean that incels are 59% more likely to commit mass murder than they were a year ago? Well, no; the real-world implications of this trend are essentially unknown.
One non-quantitative finding of the report, unless counting to three makes it quantitative: three underage incels are posting some alarming stuff to the forum.
Researchers identified three users aged between 15 and 17 who were amongst the forum’s most active members and expressed extreme views.
• Adam: 17, logged on for 10 hours a day, posted about “Jewish propaganda”
• Ben: 15, discussed desire to commit a mass shooting in posts
• Carl: student, discussed evading referral to UK’s anti-extremism program
How the fuck does a 15-year-old even qualify as an “incel” anyway? The average age boys lose their virginity at is close to 17. I don’t know his logic here but he seems quite angry about it.
I don’t want to dismiss the report altogether; there are certainly some interesting results in it. And it more or less confirms that incels are raging misogynists, self-hating pessimists and outright bigots not only towards women but towards various racial and ethnic groups other than white people. Oh, and that quite a few of them spend a lot of time thinking about committing mass murder. It’s useful to have some numbers to attach to these generalizations, even if it’s not always clear just what these numbers mean in the real world.
NOTE: While most of the press coverage of this report has been relatively uncritical, the, er, highly controversial journalist Jesse Singal, perhaps best known for his backward and deeply flawed writings on trans issues, thinks even less of this study than I do. But his “takedown” of the study is filled with bizarrely naive notions about incels. I will be writing about it, probably tomorrow.
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Since posts come with comments, I think it would be much more useful identify the percentage of threads (post + comments) that include such things. If every slur-filled post was followed by someone making the one-word comment, “Yup,” that wouldn’t make the website 1/2 as offensive. Yet it would reduce the “slur rating” by 50% according to the above research methodology.
How many conversations can you participate in without the slurs dropping or violence being threatened? That would be a much more useful quantitative metric — although I agree with David that the qualitative is absolutely necessary.
It’s weird that you posted this; my solipsism is kicking in again. But I’ve recently been using your reporting on incels as an example. There’s a bit of a debate at the moment about legacy journalism versus internet journalism; especially with regards to coverage of legal matters.
The argument is as to whether internet based self published reporting is legitimate; or whether only traditional journalism (well known newspapers of TV channels) should be taken seriously.
Mainstream journalists argue that people who publish material online in exchange for donations are just grifters cashing in on suffering. The counter argument is that it’s new media commentators who have a particular expertise on a specialised topic, and the time, to produce more in depth and accurate reportage.
I used your reporting on incels as a perfect example from another field.
The mainstream media view of incels is often that they are merely a group of men and boys with low self esteem and difficulty with social skills who find it hard to attract women. Some of whom are occasionally driven to violence. Whenever there is a mass murder, the talk is always about how we need better treatment for mental illness, or to address why some men are being left behind.
My counter is that it’s people like yourself with a particular interest and expertise in this topic who can actually deep dive into the source material and report and comment on what is actually going on in the manosphere.
I’m sure though that’s the same with a wide variety of topics and issues. There will be people with knowledge of just about any subject no doubt reading or viewing reporting on their particular area of expertise yelling “You got that wrong.”
I can see why mainstream thought though does just go with ‘professional’ media. All too often ‘mainstream media’ is just a buzzword for conspiracy theorists and cranks. So saying legacy media might not be the best source of information compared to new media understandably might be greeted with scepticism; or more often just ignored.
I guess it’s a bit like the book thread. Why are those books just seen as legitimate by ‘regular’ folks? How did Jordan Peterson end up being a best seller?
I can understand how busy people who don’t have a particular interest in a topic trust legacy media; and don’t go any further in say seeking out more in depth and expert coverage on such topics and personalities. But I can’t help but think that results in a populous who if not actively misinformed, are at least under-informed.
Will that always be the case, or might the generations who grew up with the internet rely more on online journalists as their primary source of information? I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.
Would love to hear more about the pissbottles. How many? What kind? How full? Who finally empties them? Are they cleaned afterward? (I kid about that last one.) Seems like that would be an interesting discussion.
Who are these powerful powerusers and where do they get their strength? I’m curious about this level of achievement.
And the guy who — um, makes love — to his pillow: Does he personally wash his pillowcase? (Yeah, I’m kidding again.)
I do have to criticize the slurs though. They are pitifully few in number and used way too often. Get more creative, incels.
@Alan Robertshaw
Don’t forget the biggest issue with legacy media: the colossal pro-corporation, pro-state, pro-status quo bias that comes with the 24-hour news cycle and being beholden to the interests of corporate sponsors. It’s not like they’re completely unreliable, but you always have to keep in mind where their funding comes from.
Or rather they’re the only ones willing to do so, as opposed to going with sound bites, sensationalism, and generally spinning it in whatever way they think will get the highest ratings and/or appease their masters.
It would be best for such sites to be taken down and away from polite society like gab and others. One less vector for misogyny radicalization.
Those people are harmful mostly to themselves but also they are grooming other in condition of involuntary celibacy into the subculture. Racist words they use are mostly used refering to mbers of the forum and as self-description, because they see (probably true) privilege of whites in social hierarchy, culture, mass media and thus dating.
It’s hard for me to believe that less than 15% of intel posts contain slurs against women. Don’t get me wrong. 15% is a very high number for anyone else. But for incels? If this data is right, what are they talking about in the other 85% of their posts?
@Dave
Suffering, suicide, depression, being ugly, self-improvement and its limitations, disaility. This subculture is cult of mental problems.
@lard
Really?
@lard
So what? Their feelings are irrelevant to their behavior choices.They choose to do all of that horrible stuff.
Every self-piteous post I have seen on an incel forum also contains misogyny. It’s not just “I suck, and my life sucks, and no one will sleep with me.” There’s also invariably something about the foids in there and usually a call to violence. I think the only way the numbers would end up being what they are is if Crip Dyke is right that the count is treating long rants and short comments agreeing with the rant equally under the category of “post”.
I mean, consider the following situation:
Person A: Foids have caused all the problems in this world. Them b*tches are the worst.
Person B: Indeed, I agree with you entirely. We should implement a government redistribution of women and regain the powers that are rightfully ours, as it was in times of old, when men were men. Women don’t need the vote, and they shouldn’t get any say in choosing which man they have to service. If we can’t do it, well… in a zombie apocalypse the weak go first is all I’m saying (in Minecraft).
Person A is going to come up twice in the scraper, and Person B isn’t going to trigger it at all. Yet Person B is actually spending more time thinking about how to oppress women, and making threats. Are we really going to say Person B is not a misogynist quantitatively just because there were no slurs?
Edit: Lol, on second thought I think I could have shortened this comment to “I agree with Crip Dyke 100%.”
@Elaine
Really what?
@Brony
They don’t “do” horrible stuff, they just talk about it. But if one in several hundreds does something, it’s bad enough.
@Lard
Communication is an action incompetent.
Spreading violent fascist gossip is an action.
Behavior does not stay in places like that and they role-model and encourage one another.
Your posts are actions. And actions have consequences. Including criticism from feminist blogs. You go tell them to stop if you care. Criticism is part of how we get the behavior to stop.
I’d say that by the age 15-17 range, you have an idea of how attractive and interesting you are to girls, and how they view you. You’ve been through enough school dances and other “romantic events” to judge your level of success and project your future trajectory. It’s not so much a matter of “I haven’t had sex yet”; it’s “I haven’t been able to take any steps that might reasonably lead to sex yet.” Obviously some awkward boys manage to mature and improve, but many don’t, and without those early experiences, it becomes harder and harder to navigate the dating landscape. And today’s lonely teenage boys have all kinds of venom pumped into their minds, labeling girls/women/feminism as the cause of their problems and promising solutions via violent, fascist movements.
————————
Btw, an incel in California has been arrested for assaulting several women not in Minecraft, GTA, or Roblox with the kinds of invective you see in these forums. And also with tear gas.
@Zalis: You might be correct that 15 year-olds think that way but you are incorrect to the extent that you are implying their future projections are accurate.
The idea that not getting dates at 15 means you are doomed due to insufficient “practice” is ridiculous.
I judge cis men by their attractiveness to me. I am ruthless about it and 99.99% of cis men do not meet my exacting minimum standards. Those who don’t, I have no use for and they aren’t allowed in my divine presence though maybe if they’re respectful I will allow them to worship me from far away as the goddess that I am and be graced by my beauty, intelligence and radiant immense divine power. I’m arbitrary and capricious about whether I allow it and it’s completely at my whim. So I don’t care at all what some sniveling entitled incel loser thinks and I hate them. If they are disappointed that a woman as conventionally attractive as I am judges them this way they deserve it as the entitled losers that they are.
@lard
Are you really this much of a dumbass with that much of lack of empathy?
@Elaine: survey says YES.
@Zalis
This may in fact be somewhat accurate, with the caveat of “exactly as stated, to girls”. The solution is not to wallow. It’s to age out of high school and join the adult world and realise “I failed with girls 15-17. Now is my opportunity to take that input, make myself more interesting, and see if I’m now attractive to women my own age.” Not “endlessly resent girls 15-17 for not ever changing their opinion because now I’m an old creeper to them, and women my own age because I call them old hags even though I’m the same age.”
However, I will also note that high school boys (and girls) routinely misinterpret things in really dramatic ways, have apparently got quite low filters for what is socially acceptable (at least from my experience as a teacher), and may not in fact be the best judge of how other people see them. Especially if depressed or anxious.
@Alan Robertshaw:
Seems silly to me. There are newspapers and TV channels that absolutely should not be considered “legitimate reporting” (the Daily Heil; Fox News), as well as ones that should (New York Times, NBC); there are likewise online-only sites that should not be (Infowars) and ones that should be (WHTM). AFAICT trustworthiness and competence are pretty much orthogonal to “what medium it’s published in”. It does correlate with political bias, though: the right wing, both online and in traditional media, are rife with failed fact checks and unfalsifiable twaddle (ranging from religious fundamentalism to conspiracy theories), which are largely lacking on the left.
Pot, kettle, black coming from media outlets owned by billionaires and trying not to piss off advertisers that are also owned by billionaires. You never get an economically left perspective (except in strawman form ripe for the torching) from traditional media. They vary only on how left vs. right they are on the non-economic axes (race, gender, etc.) and, correlating strongly with that, how respectful vs. cavalier they are about factuality.
@all:
Let’s keep in mind that incels are not actually griping about a lack of sex, per se. Their grievance is about the lack of the status men gain by having a pretty girlfriend or wife.
There are indeed a lot of men being “left behind”, but the vast majority of them do not join incel forums and wallow in violent ideation. I expect for most of them the thing they feel they lack is companionship and intimacy, rather than sex per se or even status, and they know that violence is not the answer because those (unlike sex or status) cannot by their nature be obtained coercively. It’s the ones with a status-entitlement chip on their shoulder who are susceptible to radicalization, the same vulnerability exploited by fascist recruiting, cults, and even the military. And their complaint really boils down to “it’s hard to get a 1950s style Stepford wife these days”.
@Lard:
The interesting thing being that though they grumble about their place in these hierarchies, they also seem to fundamentally accept those hierarchies as legitimate, rather than seek to resist them.
This, too, is a hallmark of right wing ideologues and recruitment-fodder. They’re fine with the hierarchy but think they personally deserve a higher position on it, rather than that almost everyone does. They want not equality but to have someone/more people than currently beneath them. I.e., they want higher status, again.
@Brony:
Indeed. Even the posters there who are not likely to directly engage in a mass shooting or similarly are egging on the ones who might. They’re engaged in stochastic terrorism, Tucker Carlson style.
The creators of incels.is are really diabolical. Diego Joaquín Galante and Lamarcus Small were also the creators and owners of the site that encouraged vulnerable young people to take their own lives while live streaming it. And some of them actually did.
https://www.wvtf.org/2022-01-18/disturbing-website-encourages-vulnerable-users-to-die-by-suicide-whats-being-done-about-it
@Zalis
Thanks for this info.
@Mammotheers
I Googled this incel. His name is Johnny Deven Young and he’s from Anaheim. I’ve been paywalled out of a couple of news sites, but I was able to read the first paragraph and see his photo. Ugly? Not at all.
Crip Dyke, exactly! I was going to try to make a point along these lines but I couldn’t quite figure out how to frame it. Thanks!
Also, that’s exactly how comments tend to work there — long diatribes followed by comments that are mostly just agreeing (or disagreeing, but mostly agreeing) in a couple of words at most. (There are some longer comments as well, but they’re less common.)
Now off to read about the new incel assaulter.
No surprises here, sadly. Thank you for doing this disgusting but necessary work.
To the guy here who uses the new fascist expression”legacy media” – even if I agree with your points, fuck off.