So over on the Men’s Rights subreddit today there’s a dude completely losing it over the issue of … tipping waitresses. Seems that these women, especially the younger ones, sometimes see a big tip from an older guy as a sign that the tipper has feelings for them (in his pants) and sometimes this kind of creeps them out.
Somehow this makes our Men’s Rights Redditor so mad that he’s decided not to tip women any more.
Starski09’s rant is just a teensy bit confusing, so let’s see if I can explain it a little more clearly than he manages to.
It starts with him reading about a little experiment some women on Tik Tok conducted in which they went to work wearing pigtails to see if this increased the amount of tips they got. And it did. Women discussing the experiment on the 2XChromosomes subreddit found this a bit gross, as it suggested that the men tipping the pigtailed women not only were sexualizing them, but were also responding to a hairstyle that made them look younger, even childlike. The women of 2X found this more than a little bit icky.
Starski09 was having none of it. What if the men weren’t sexualizing the pigtailed women, but just trying to help out, as nice older men sometimes do.
I scrolled through and read hundreds of the comments, not one of them mentioned the possibility that pigtails make women look a lot younger and that it could be men see you as young, vulnerable and men want to help you start your life.
Yeah, because sugar daddy fantasies aren’t, like, even grosser than plain old fashioned lust.
Starski09 concludes from this experiment that the men aren’t sexualizing the pigtailed women; it is the women themselves who are sexualizing the situation, both at work and in the discussion on 2X.
No longer is asking someone out on a date or asking for their number means we want the sex. Now just tipping someone has sexual motivation, tipping a young woman or even teen will be sexualized by them. I’ve seen this more and more in my real life the older I’ve gotten, anything men do is sexual while woman can say and do as they please.
So he concludes from all this nonsense that he no longer needs to tip women at all. As he puts it in his title,
we don’t have to tip women anymore and we should completely stop helping any women outside our personal lives, with anything. Women will sexualize anything and everything they can just so they can be offended by it.
Indeed, he complains, women sexualize him all the time. Especially when they give him advice on how to look his best.
I’ve had women tell me what to do and what not to do my whole life. So many women have told me how unattractive and ugly my beard is, how they don’t like it being multi colored and it’s not full enough.
So these women are doing him a little favor by letting him know his beard is shit and he would look better without it. So he just continues growing his beard harder.
I grew it out for years in spite of all the comments I got, no matter how well I kept it trimmed I still got looks on the daily and was treated like a creep for my bad genes.
So you can’t grow a decent beard. Fucking learn to live with it.
If I was a woman going against the grain I would be hailed as a hero and badass for fighting the patriarchy.
Yes, women are often hailed for dressing badly and having crap hairdos.
I’ve been told by women not to wear certain clothes, not to grow out my hair because I look like a child, not to wear certain hairstyles because they don’t look good,
Is it possible they’re, you know, right and he’s a badly dressed baby-faced man with a crappy beard? And they just want him to know so he can upgrade his appearance?
I mean, when women tell me I really need to get a haircut it’s because I really need to get a haircut.
these are all examples of sexualizing a man, telling him he needs to look good for you to take him serious, find him attractive or not be a creep.
I’m not sure telling a guy he looks like shit is really the best way to start flirting with him.
Women don’t understand what men go through their whole lives, how hard we have to try not to be seen as a creep or even a pedophile, how we are constantly sexualized by women openly. Some try it but they often times kill themselves because they weren’t raised into our lifestyle.
What the fuck are you even talking about.
So it is time to fight back by not going out of our way to help them, financial withholding is a good non aggressive way to do so. Let women pick up the tab and support their own.
Plenty of women are happy to pick up the tab.
But of course I’m going to state exactly why I won’t tip them so they know I’m not just a cheap skate,
Yeah, that’ll go well.
mostly going to find way to avoid bringing them my business all together, time to find a barber for starts!
Get him to shave off your shitty beard while he’s at it.
My go to responses are going to be, Sorry, I can’t tip you because of the possible implications and I don’t want to sexualize you by tipping you, have a good day! It’s sad because I always tipped women well and now I’m seeing what all those weird looks were and why they barely ever said thanks.
Women weren’t giving you weird looks because you tipped too much. They could probably sense that you’re so stuffed with weird resentments of women that you would literally go to the Men’s Rights subreddit to lead a crusade of men not tipping their waitresses.
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Translation: “I’m expected to give a woman something and NOT GET PUSSY IN RETURN?”
I mean, it’s not cool for people to randomly criticize someone’s appearance, though I suspect he’s exaggerating how often this happened.
But it’s bullshit that women don’t get the same. It’s a while ago now, but I used to get comments from one of my bosses about how my clothes could look more put-together and less old-fashioned (he wasn’t being creepy in a sexualizing way, but there were some classist implications, I thought: my clothes didn’t look like I spent enough money on them, apparently).
How fragile do you have to be to see a discussion of how female tipped workers are sexualized, take the whole thing extremely personally and conclude that you will never tip again.
If you have to try hard not to look like a creep, you’re a creep. It’s amazing how many men get through their days without having to try not to look like a creep. Because they’re not creeps.
I don’t even want to get into the other thing he has to try not to look like, though these days there are a lot of false accusations. Like an entire cult built around false accusations. Also there’s a political movement determined to destroy democracy that is building itself up using making false accusations as one of its chief tools. The only difference is that the victims of the false accusations don’t need to make themselves look like they’re not because they’re not actually doing anything a reality-based person could misconstrue as that.
He could just move to Australia; we don’t tip anyone here.
Hang on. On second thoughts, no, you can keep him.
@Tabby
That’s not fair. You can be considered “creep” when you have autism, schizophrenia and similar disorders. It happens to these people when they are trying to have normal interactions. Frequently also socially aware and mentally sane men are viewed as “creepy” when they are ugly or old and try to flirt with woman.
I agree with @ epitome that he’s *definitely* exaggerating (I sense from his deep sense of outrage at a online discussion that he may be somewhat sensitive) BUT I will concede its probably considered more socially acceptable for women to comment directly to men opinions on their appearance than the other way round.
My partner has always had seventies-style sideburns and I was surprised how many women (even a friend of mine, which ticked me off) are like “they look shit, get rid”. He told me he even got annoyed after a woman in a bar approached him to be rude about them, and pettily said something mean back about her own choice in style, to which she was incredibly offended. He’s conventionally handsome, so maybe that’s why people feel freer to criticise.
Obviously women have far, far more pressures on their appearence, but I feel like that pressure is more omnipresent. And for the very reason that looks in women are considered SO important, to criticise them to their face is more of a social taboo. Whereas men are expected to be tough, and not vain, and their looks incidental, so therefore having a dig is seen as fine.
@ lollypop
Wait, are your friends from some weird parallel universe where Department S isn’t a thing?
@Feliks I have a co-worker on the spectrum who asks me to let him know if he’s acting inappropriately when dealing with the people we deal with. Because he may be autistic but he’s also self-aware.
[Emphasis mine]
First off, fuck you sideways with a rusty porcupine for that bit of fucking ableism, you miserable little shit-weasel; being on the spectrum isn’t a form of insanity, dumbass, but implying so is definitely a sign of raging assholery.
Gee, I wonder why you can’t get a date? Must be because women are shallow or some crap, because it couldn’t possibly be that you’re such a giant piece of shit no one can miss the stench even over the Internet…
And secondly, if an old man is flirting with someone young enough to be his daughter (or worse, granddaughter), then “creepy” is exactly the right label, you fucking moron.
@Feliks
breh you need to get a life
@Troll
Oh no! So you’re telling me a man in his 60s who flirts with a woman in her 60s is automatically considered a creep as a result? That’s totally unfair.
Oh wait, woops, I forgot the word “woman” actually only applies to thin, attractive women between 18-30. The rest of us are invisible sexless beings floating pointlessly through life (point of the thin young women is making boner happen).
It is not inherently creepy to try and flirt with someone if they don’t find you attractive and you don’t know that; however, the way they are likely to respond to your flirtations is going to be different. If someone is interested in the person who is flirting with them, they may respond by flirting in kind. If they’re not interested, they will probably try and shut it down.
At this point, it isn’t creepy that the second person initiated a flirtation. It would, however, be creepy if they kept it up despite the other person showing no interest. It is not creepy for the first person to continue flirting because flirting with someone who wants to flirt with you is a totally different thing than harassing someone who has indicated they’re not interested. Both these men could say the exact same words, but it would be different because women are people, actually, and we are half of a m/f interaction, and our contributions to that interaction are meaningful.
All of this is complicated if the person you’re hitting on is at work and is professionally obligated to be nice to you. That puts you in a position of power, and taking advantage of that is scummy.
If he is telling the truth (and I doubt he is) about what women criticising his look then if this is unsolicited he is right to criticise it.
But given the tangent he goes off on and the weird conclusions he is drawing I think he just made it up.
@Feliks
This is a lie.
Edit: Actually if a man in his 60s is trying it on with an 18 year old then yes that would be seen as creepy.
Because it is.
@Viscaria
“ It is not inherently creepy to try and flirt with someone if they don’t find you attractive and you don’t know that; however, the way they are likely to respond to your flirtations is going to be different. If someone is interested in the person who is flirting with them, they may respond by flirting in kind. If they’re not interested, they will probably try and shut it down.
At this point, it isn’t creepy that the second person initiated a flirtation. It would, however, be creepy if they kept it up despite the other person showing no interest. It is not creepy for the first person to continue flirting because flirting with someone who wants to flirt with you is a totally different thing than harassing someone who has indicated they’re not interested. Both these men could say the exact same words, but it would be different because women are people, actually, and we are half of a m/f interaction, and our contributions to that interaction are meaningful.”
I genuinely think this confuses incels / some men and why they genuinely believe in the “creep shaming” myth.
They think they are being called “creepy” solely for initiating an interaction with a woman they like.
When frequently it’s because they keep pushing after she shows her lack of interest.
I think I shouldn’t answer to people who call me “piece of shit” etc. and I don’t know why someone calling me a troll then answers to me.
@Viscaria, Steph
Why you go to the extreme with men in 60s flirting with 18y/o girls? It can apply to different situations with lower age gap. Also you ignored part about ugly men labeled as creepy.
Didn’t realize that Feliks would show up in this thread, too, so I posted something important about Feliks in our last thread, where the conversation about banning Feliks started. I won’t paste the whole thing in this thread, but I think it’s worth putting a note here that I’ve written something there that is important to how we as a community choose to interact with Feliks.
This Feliks who is gross and a creep and actually embraces evil. This Feliks right here. Feel no pity.
If a man is significantly older than a woman, he should not be flirting with her, end of story. It IS creepy. And if a man takes the chance to flirt with a woman who is much more conventionally attractive than he is, he just has to accept that it probably won’t end well. When I was young and very attractive, I could not walk one city block without receiving a come-on. Many of those men were much older and/or not at all attractive to me. Many of those men came off as creepy and potentially predatory. I learned to walk fast and fuck politeness. Young, pretty women are in high demand and many men do not like the fact that they actually have preferences, standards, and agency.
Now I’m a plain middle-aged woman and I’m invisible to all men, including old and not conventionally attractive men. If I tried to flirt with a man, he would probably be horrified, in part because of the way I look now and in part because I’m autistic and don’t understand flirting. Which is fine, I have no interest anyway, and I enjoy being able to walk in peace.
@Lollypop:
My partner has always had seventies-style sideburns and I was surprised how many women (even a friend of mine, which ticked me off) are like “they look shit, get rid”. He told me he even got annoyed after a woman in a bar approached him to be rude about them, and pettily said something mean back about her own choice in style, to which she was incredibly offended. He’s conventionally handsome, so maybe that’s why people feel freer to criticise.
Out of curiosity, does your partner go for an allover period look? In, say, steampunk circles, a lush crop of sideburns might well draw applause. (There’s probably a -punk or -core term for a 70’s aesthetic, because there seems to be one for everything any more(1), but I don’t happen to know it.)
(1) https://aesthetics.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Aesthetics
Just as an aside, in Victorian times those big bushy sideburns were known as “Buggers’ Grips”.
Which would also be a good name for a band.
@Alan: Is that a similar meaning as ‘love handles’, or does bugger have another meaning I’m not aware of? That is not me being snide, btw, I would genuinely like to know why they’re called that.
@ battering lamb
A bugger is someone who engages in buggery. And how to explain what that is.
Hmm, when a man loves another man very very much…
So it’s the idea you have something to hold onto.
Incidentally, in Yorkshire bugger is just a term for person. So even at school teachers would say “Ee, tha’s a daft bugger…”
(‘Tha’ can either indicate ‘you are’ or ‘they are’ depending on whether it’s “a” or “eh” in the middle)
It’s not necessarily derisory. You get stuff like “He’s a brave bugger that one.”
Been a while since I commented here, but I’m returning, after doing some catch up reading of the site, just to say :
‘Fuck You Feliks!’
Firstly, arsehole, autistic people are NOT disordered. We might be disorganised, dependant on our mum’s to make phone calls, distracted by our hobbies and interests, and that buzzing sound the lights are making, and a total disaster at communicating with neurotypical people (it’s called the Double Empathy Problem, look it up, Damian Milton has done some fabulous work) but we are not disordered. Due to the Double Empathy Problem, neurotypical people often misinterpret Autistic body language, tone of voice and eye contact levels, be we get the blame because apparently making an effort to realise that there is a communication disconnect and trying to bridge the difference is too much for a lot of neurotypical people, even though neurodivergent people are expected to do it all the time. Which is exhausting. There are creepy, arseholish autistic people, because we’re human and some humans are creepy arseholes.
I can’t speak for people with schizophrenia, since I don’t have schizophrenia, (interestingly enough, Eugene Bleuler who coined the term schizophrenia also coined autism, not as a condition of its own but as a symptom of schizophrenia, although it meant the opposite of what it does now), however, since they’re usually included among the neurodivergent, I wouldn’t say they were disordered. Badly treated by medical professionals, under represented, badly represented in media, and in need of support, maybe.
Secondly, any ‘flirting’ and ‘creepiness’ is all in the interpretation of people who have been shown to dislike us anyway. You know when we’re actually flirting with you, because total lack of subtlety. Also, flirting at an autistic person might not actually work. Either we’ll miss your cues, or we’ll find you creepy, or we’ll think you’re just being nice. Again, some autistic people can be creeps, because we’re human, and some humans can be creeps. Mostly, I, and the autistic people I know, are very, very careful about not coming across as creeps.
Thirdly, a lot of autistic people are very socially aware, in the sense that we understand social rules and conventions, we have to be to survive. Being abused by peers and ‘professionals’ for not meeting arbitrary neurotypical social behaviours will do that. We just see that most of them are arbitrary bullshit used to control people. Not all of us, because, again humans, society, formed by, and all that stuff. But it’s fairly common for autistic people to have strong ethics, although the aspie supremacists and ‘autistic dark web’ are a massive embarrassment. There was some research from Brazil, I think, a couple of years back that showed Autistic people were more likely to do the right thing even when other people weren’t watching. Although the researchers framed it as a deficit of moral flexibility or something like that.
We are often socially aware in another sense too, there are many campaigners for social change and environmental protection who are autistic, there are plenty of researchers, social services workers, medical workers, writers, artists, comedians etc. who are autistic.
I am not speaking for all autistics, of course, only for myself and based on my interactions with literally hundreds of autistic people on and off line for the last four years. As well as reading lots of Own Voices work and research by Autistic researchers.
Forth, while most of society only thinks about men flirting with women, I’d say any non-consensual or non-reciprocated flirting, whoever is involved, is creepy. Age, gender and looks are pretty much irrelevant, it’s intent and actions that matter to me. A twenty year old woman flirting with me would creep me out if I wasn’t interested, as would a fifty year old man. Hell, I’ve been creeped out be a conventionally attractive man of my own age flirting with me.
And finally, fuck you once again, for talking about neurodivergent people as ‘these people’, you ableist piece of horse dung using a mass-murderers name. May you forever step on slugs and Lego.
Since it was mentioned, I was considering the various men I know who have been in or are in relationships with women much younger than them, even ones barely of age. (As well as a few where the woman was the elder in the relationship.)
Off the top of my head, I notice a number of commonalities: None of the men are rich Chad types, in fact, some are far less attractive than their significant other, some have health issues that would seem to be detrimental to any effort to attract a woman looking for a genetic ideal, etc, etc.
What they do have in common though is that most are fairly charming, tend toward empathy and kindness, and often didn’t actually go looking for someone half their age or barely legal. They were simply living their life, ran into someone, and things happened.
Case in point: The other day I was in a conversation where one guy (with one of those aforementioned health issues that should send a Stacy running, according to incels), mentioned he met his wife at a party when he was in his late thirties and she was twenty. He was drunk and happily dancing with anyone and everyone. She liked him, asked for his number, and called him a few weeks later when he’d practically forgotten her. He was not creepy or chasing after anyone inappropriately, so nobody thought anything about it. If he had been all over her and making unwanted advances, things would have been different.
But, I preach to the choir for the most part here. Those like our new friend here aren’t going to be convinced of anything.
I forgot to add, people have actually been murdered by creepy men who think their interactions with wait staff and servers means something other than the person being polite and doing their jobs. Since in the US many servers are paid less than minimum wage, their tips are essential. Being ‘nice’ and having a conversation with someone who might be a regular and who tips well because they think it’ll help they get laid is ‘part of the job’ or so I understand.
Here’s one example:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/7Kl2dvyLaANSvipugx8uex?si=2f80fccbe4894a9f