Kiwi Farms, the infamous stalking/doxing site with an especial animus towards trans victims, is facing an energetic campaign to get it booted off the internet. If you haven’t been following the story, there’s a quick explainer here.
So-called “gender critical” transphobes, who recently cheered on the swatting of the trans streamer now leading the campaign against Kiwi Farms, are praying it survives.
On Ovarit, a Reddit-like forum that has become a haven for transphobes who left the real Reddit when the mods took down the Gender Critical subreddit, assorted commenters have professed their love for the site, which a commenter known as fistcity described as “one of the last free places on the internet and i hope it lives forever tbh.”
“Honestly I love KF,” fistcity confessed.
I’ve learned so many interesting things there that I would never have known about otherwise just because so many different kinds of people are there. Also some of them are crazily good documentarians. Bonus: very funny shit.
Fistcity has a vision of Kiwi Farms that seems to have come from a not-so-parallel universe.
They drove no one to suicide. They don’t harass people. They do not contact them. They don’t swat. They observe, and they take what is publicly available information that people voluntarily put out there and archive it. If someone wants to look at their thread, fine, but that’s on them. It’s nobody else’s problem but their own, and it’s a problem that can be easily solved by stepping away from the fucking computer lol.
For the real story, see here.
Ave_Lucifuge replied:
Kiwifarms is a big reason I peaked [became a TERF]. NOT because they’re “transphobic”, but because they document all the hideous shit TIMs do/say. Idk why TIMs put so much focus on shutting the fruit farms down when they could just simply not be degenerates (lies, we all know why).
When a commenter called littleowl12 pointed out that Kiwi Farms is “pretty racist and anti-Semitic,” other commenters, while not denying this was true, were quick to dismiss Kiwi Farms’ bigotry as no big deal.
“I’m a jew and the antisemitism doesn’t bother me,” wrote our old friend fistcity.
that’s just how it is in certain parts of the internet. …
I don’t know … that i’ve ever seen someone who was scary. I guess maybe the people who are really good at doxing might be scary to people. Kind of impressive really. A lot of stuff is also said in jest or just for the sake of profanity. Yeah, sometimes you see some wild ass psycho but that’s actually not most of the users. Feel like I’ve seen lots more people with normal lives, jobs, and families than I have seen like, basement dwellers.
“It’s a gossip site,” added WholeGrain.
They aren’t a hivemind and have a lot of diverse users. Threads on Jewish people will see anti-semitic users, threads on black people will have racist users, threads on right-wingers will have left-leaning users, and the threads in the beauty parlor have female users of all kinds. This is just how it is when everyone is allowed to say what they want to.
LuckyStar was pretty much ready to excuse any behavior.
I really dislike all the hate speech that is used on that website, parts of it feel like a bunch of edgy 7th graders super excited to finally use “the n word”. But tbh if the price of maintaining free speech — and thus being one of like two places left on the internet where we can speak honestly and accurately about TIMs [trans women] and call them out on their bullshit — is a bunch of edgy tweens trying out whatever bad word they learned from South Park last week then honestly I’ll take it.
Like fistcity, Lucky Star appears to live in a different universe than the rest of us.
The ugly language is gross, but TIMs are out here pushing the wholesale destruction of all of women’s rights and spaces and mass sterilization of gay and autistic youth, the urgency with which we must document their behavior and make others aware, to me far outweighs that
None of that is true, of course, but it does provide convenient cover for supporting a hate site under siege.
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I loved dresses and dolls, but also romped around outside all day and caught frogs and played in mud. I’d say it’s not that autistic girls have ‘masculine minds,” it’s that they disregard the rules about what they are and aren’t supposed to like. Just like I spent years in middle school re-reading The Lord Of The Rings and carrying the books with me everywhere at a time and place where being a bookworm (and one that read books that weren’t sold in the grocery store) was considered deeply uncool and led to bullying.
I also was openly pro-choice and an atheist in a small, ultra-conservative town (more bullying). This idea that autistic girls are these poor little malleable dears just seems wrong to me.
Also BTW re that “mass sterilization” argument. I find it interesting that keeps getting used, because a lot of the people using it are the same who promote eugenics and ableism re actual treatment of people with autism. Y’all would have been okay with me being sterilized, or even artificially kept from puberty, when I was male. But now that I call myself a woman it’s such an awful thing that I got myself surgically sterilized? LOL, 100% bad faith. Fuck all the way off.
Edit: “y’all” as in transphobes obvs, not as in WHTM readers. People here have been mostly awesome both about autism and trans stuff.
Cyborgette,
And what country was it that required until recently that trans people have to be sterilized before legally transitioning, Sweden I think? Funny how the “oh no, mutilation” crowd was a-ok with that.
the forceful imposition of transgender movement doctrine… you mean, the democratic efforts by legislators to make it harder to justify murdering us, discriminating against us, etc.? i would say the forceful imposition is the one that leads people to justfy harming us and getting away with it. but that’s the whole point of the “debate” isn’t it? it’s giving yourself permission to decide what’s hateful to people you have a bias against.
Unless they’ve just completely done away with legal document changes since the last time I looked, I’m pretty sure that some US states still require sterilization. There are legal non-profits that would know for sure, if anyone needs that info.
(Interestingly, however, under Obama & SecState Clinton requirements for changing your legal sex on your passport changed, which means that — although it can require a workaround or 3 — if you can get a driver’s license sex designator changed in a liberal state, you can use that to change your passport, and then use your passport to get a driver’s license with the updated legal sex in a conservative state…but probably only if it’s your first time getting a license in that state. Even with your passport, they probably won’t let you change a record already in their computers. Red states can be assholes like that.)
@WWTH
Maybe Sweden, maybe Denmark? I used to know a trans woman in Denmark who had some true horror stories about their medical system. All trans care outsourced to one for-profit contractor, still having to be straight (or pretend to) in 2015 in order to get HRT… The Nordic countries are collectivist sure, but they’re not as progressive as a lot of US liberals think.
But yeah. Mandating GRS and sterilization for trans people has been a thing, widely and frequently. I’ve also met at least one trans woman who was forced into GRS she didn’t want.
It’s almost like the problem is not the thing we want, but that we want anything for ourselves at all… Gee who’d have thunk.
Ah, another group who defines “freedom” as “saying whatever we want about whoever we want without anybody giving us grief for it, or even mild criticism.”
I occasionally wish I could not care at all about what other people think, and then I remember I’m a member of society.
Joining in the tomboy comments here … yes, I was a tomboy, but the funny thing is, there was some subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle encouragement to be a tomboy. When I was a child looking through family photos, my mom explained to me that Infant Vicky P was wearing a blue velvet dress trimmed with lace because people kept telling her “Oh, what a cute little boy!” when they saw me, and she was trying to let them know I was a girl.
When my younger sister was born, she became the very girly girl, for reasons. Her favorite colors were pink and purple, so I could never wear them. When we got matching Disney watches, I got Mickey Mouse and she got Minnie Mouse. If something came in pink and blue, she got the pink and I got the blue. It went on like that pretty much until we were both in college. Around that time I started to rebel, and then after graduation when I started work, I went superfem for a bit – makeup, hose, dresses practically every day.
Then I married a man who wanted me to be comfortable with myself. I still have my superfem moments, but for everyday stuff, I stick to geek chic.
Does it count as being a tomboy if you realized you were actually a girl the whole time way later on?
Certainly not, at least in all respects.
Mandating at least one of those is actually still regrettably common, and that’s among countries that allow legal gender reassignment in the first place. In Finland we’re preparing to reform the system, but currently sterility is still required, as well as gender dysphoria diagnosis and full time social transitioning (which de facto requires HRT in adults).
@Victorious Parasol:
…And failing to notice that this is a double standard, because other people can’t also say whatever they want about whoever if some people are immune to pushbacks or criticism. Or occasionally they do, but double standards are perfectly fine so long as they personally benefit because other people’s free speech rights aren’t important to them.
Which leads to stupidity like “other people can’t push their agendas on me, because pushing agendas is bad, but I can push my agendas on other people, because free speech is good”. And then resolve that apparent contradiction by classifying their agendas as “not-an-agenda” because it’s bad to do that, and they’re not bad people, so obviously it can’t be what they’re pushing.
It’s similar to those people who insist that they didn’t steal, they just borrowed… without asking… or telling anyone… okay, so that sounds bad but I didn’t mean anything bad by it so it’s not actually stealing. Also I’m not giving anything back, get over it. [Continues to take other people’s stuff fully believing they’re not a thief]
@Cyborgette
“Ah cool, you’re just transphobic for your own weird reasons then. And if you don’t ID as an incel, what should we call you? An incel apologist? A misogynistic turd? A sexist prick? A sad, deluded little man who would rather blame an entire gender for his lack of nookie, than do any work on himself?” Yes. I especially like “sexist prick”. You are very eager to assign bad traits and beliefs to strange people on the internet. You can be sure I am also racist, anitisemite and right-wing and I kill kittens for fun by putting them in the oven.
@Crip Dyke
It is not a good comparision, people refer to me “sir”, because I look like a man and even dress like a man, but I was also born a boy, raised a boy, was given legal sex recognition based on my genitals as a newborn and never decided I am a woman now and in fact I was always a woman, despite my papers, my body and every person I knew claiming otherwise. I use male pronouns because they are used for people with genitals and appearance like mine, I do not choose them, they are given by society. I don’t “identify” as man, thats just accidental fact, I don’t identify as a woman, because I am not woman – and I am not woman, because I wasn’t born as a girl.
@Lumipuna
In most of the US we used to require a year of “real life test” full-time social transition as a prerequisite to even getting HRT. I can’t really even imagine what it was like, but I know I wouldn’t have survived back then.
Edit: this was for trans women, IDK how it worked for trans men.
@Feliks
ok, that’s cool. trans people exist, though, and we’d just like to be treated with the basic dignity of being addressed as we request to be addressed. concocting reasons to disrespect that simple thing that costs you nothing personally is a lot of effort for somebody who claims to not have an implicit bias against us.
@Feliks
Well, you got the “strange” part right, that is for damn sure. But I’m afraid you have already demonstrated the misogyny and transphobia, and quite extensively at that. Likewise the part where you blame us for your lack of snoo-snoo. Turd, prick, and sad deluded little man, well… those kind of go with the territory.
IDK about the racism or antisemitism yet, but it wouldn’t surprise me too much at this point. Crank magnetism in bigots is a thing, and plenty of incels blame Jews too.
Killing kittens for fun, that seems unlikely. I still wouldn’t let you play with my cat though.
Feliks,
You do realize other people have different experiences than you, right?
I’ll never get why people can’t accept that human brains are super complicated and we have a wide variety of different traits and preferences.
I love how cissexists claim that they don’t have a gender identification, that they don’t, in fact, identify as any gender, because they simply **are** a gender.
Doofus, your gender identification is simply your answer to the question, “What is your gender?” It has nothing to do with gender epistemology, or how you came to the conclusion that your gender was a particular gender. It has nothing to do with gender conflict, either.
If you believe you have a gender and you believe you know what that gender is, you have a gender identity, and you perform the act of gender identification.
Argue if you will that your gender epistemology is superior to my gender epistemology, but arguing that you don’t have a gender identity is merely advertising that you’re too fucking ignorant to have any opinion worth the tiniest measure of respect on any related matter.
Please feel free to advertise that you’re an ignorant fuckwit who is also either too arrogant or too stupid (or both) to realize their own ignorance…
…but please, also, do it offline in a closet so you don’t accidentally misinform anyone in the process.
@Snowberry
Exactly. Recently I read Barbara Hambly’s “Just Like Real People,” a novelette that (without getting into spoiler territory) explores what happens once people decide that they are justified in doing certain things because it’s not like other people are REAL people. Not in the way that THEY are real people. The plot involves actions more extreme than what you’re describing, but the similarities are chilling.
@ feliks
Well yes; but so are names. At birth your parents assign you a name. And your birth certificate will reflect that. But if you call someone ‘Robert’ and they say ‘Actually, I prefer Bob’ no-one gives a toss. They just use the name you choose for yourself. So why are pronouns any different?
Of all the issues around ‘the trans debate’ pronouns have to be the biggest ‘Meh’ aspect.
In every other aspect of life, forms of address are completely uncontroversial.
Like in my job, I have to check who’s a Sir/Ma’am, Your Honour/Your Honour, Your Ladyship/Lordship, M’Lud or M’Lady.
Same in the military “Don’t call me Sir; I work for a living” etc.
Heck even ships are she (or he if you’re Russian)
But addressing someone in the way they prefer isn’t ‘woke’, it’s just common courtesy.
@Victorious Parasol:
Exactly. Recently I read Barbara Hambly’s “Just Like Real People,” a novelette that (without getting into spoiler territory) explores what happens once people decide that they are justified in doing certain things because it’s not like other people are REAL people. Not in the way that THEY are real people. The plot involves actions more extreme than what you’re describing, but the similarities are chilling.
I’m also reminded of Dwayne Hoover from Kurt Vonnegut’s Breakfast of Champions, whose growing mental illness erupts into a violent rampage against everyone within reach (including, IIRC, Vonnegut himself) when he decides he’s the Protagonist of the World. The trigger is Kilgore Trout’s novel Now It Can Be Told, whose premise is that the reader (addressed in second person) is the subject of an alien experiment: you’re the only real person in the world, and that everyone else you’ve interacted with is a robot, planted to observe your reactions.
Hoover takes this at face value.
So it goes.
@Victorious Parasol:
When my younger sister was born, she became the very girly girl, for reasons. Her favorite colors were pink and purple, so I could never wear them. When we got matching Disney watches, I got Mickey Mouse and she got Minnie Mouse. If something came in pink and blue, she got the pink and I got the blue. It went on like that pretty much until we were both in college. Around that time I started to rebel, and then after graduation when I started work, I went superfem for a bit – makeup, hose, dresses practically every day.
That ‘s something only children often don’t get: as a sibling, you have a brand to establish—and it’s often thrust upon you. You get typecast, based on sex, birth order, family script, physical appearance, and whatever quirks your family decides to Flanderize; this is all the sharper for consecutive siblings of the same sex. (The oldest daughter tends to wind up as Deputy Mom; the last of a string of daughters often gets anointed as the Honorary Son and pushed into tomboyhood.) Evidently it was decided that you were the Tomboy and your sister was the Girly Girl, and never the twain should overlap.
@Alan Robertshaw:
I know, that’s what sticks in my craw as well. Just asking to be called by what you want to be called isn’t exactly a major imposition, especially when we’re talking about pronouns and not somebody insisting on being referred to by a ten syllable full name. The very fact that people start throwing fits about it indicates that the pronouns themselves can’t be the problem; either it’s a general ‘this is how the world works and anything that goes against that is heresy’ attitude; or it’s someone who just doesn’t like ever being told that they’re wrong, and would probably have equal issues with anybody else who they misgendered accidentally even if the person weren’t trans, because for them it’s all about the fact that somebody else told them they were wrong.
And Crip Dyke has already been talking about a Utah case where a young woman was accused of being trans by people whose daughters were beaten by her in an athletic competition.
(I particularly liked somebody else’s comment on that, where “I’d rather my daughter be on a team with somebody who had a penis than on a team where the coach had the right to check of she has a penis.” A way to reframe the ‘think of the children!’ aspect of it.)
@Full Metal Ox:
I know my little sister got sick and tired of being compared to me as she went through the same elementary school with a number of the same teachers still there eight years later. Especially given I’d done extremely well academically, and my sister was smart, but much more in a ‘people and tactics’ sort of way than a ‘does well on examinations’ sort of way. She runs a business with her husband these days, and he’s flat out stated that they wouldn’t be doing anywhere near as well as they are without her savvy.
Ah sisters…
My eldest goddaughter used to be a shy bookish sort of girl but in her mid teens she started looking like someone artists would fight over for the chance to paint. My youngest goddaughter commented thusly.
“Yeah it’s weird. I always assumed I’d be the good looking one and you’d be the lesbian”
As it transpired…
@felik
Suck the fattest part of my ass, you jerk. But sure. Let’s listen to the guy who can’t even figure out how to get women to talk to him spread his opinion on gender
@Full Metal Ox:
Which can be particularly irksome if what they’re flanderizing is a not-actually-real trait based on a random thing which happened during that one event when you were five that you don’t even remember. And might have actually been the neighbor kid. And some people are surprised several times per year for decades that the trait they’ve always assigned to you and unrealistically exaggerated isn’t you, when exactly did that change?
…Not me, but a close friend of mine, and that’s unpleasant enough to witness, let alone experience. Worst I personally got was an aunt who thought for several years that I really loved cats for some reason. I mean, they’re fine and all, but I prefer bunnies.