Kiwi Farms, the infamous stalking/doxing site with an especial animus towards trans victims, is facing an energetic campaign to get it booted off the internet. If you haven’t been following the story, there’s a quick explainer here.
So-called “gender critical” transphobes, who recently cheered on the swatting of the trans streamer now leading the campaign against Kiwi Farms, are praying it survives.
On Ovarit, a Reddit-like forum that has become a haven for transphobes who left the real Reddit when the mods took down the Gender Critical subreddit, assorted commenters have professed their love for the site, which a commenter known as fistcity described as “one of the last free places on the internet and i hope it lives forever tbh.”
“Honestly I love KF,” fistcity confessed.
I’ve learned so many interesting things there that I would never have known about otherwise just because so many different kinds of people are there. Also some of them are crazily good documentarians. Bonus: very funny shit.
Fistcity has a vision of Kiwi Farms that seems to have come from a not-so-parallel universe.
They drove no one to suicide. They don’t harass people. They do not contact them. They don’t swat. They observe, and they take what is publicly available information that people voluntarily put out there and archive it. If someone wants to look at their thread, fine, but that’s on them. It’s nobody else’s problem but their own, and it’s a problem that can be easily solved by stepping away from the fucking computer lol.
For the real story, see here.
Ave_Lucifuge replied:
Kiwifarms is a big reason I peaked [became a TERF]. NOT because they’re “transphobic”, but because they document all the hideous shit TIMs do/say. Idk why TIMs put so much focus on shutting the fruit farms down when they could just simply not be degenerates (lies, we all know why).
When a commenter called littleowl12 pointed out that Kiwi Farms is “pretty racist and anti-Semitic,” other commenters, while not denying this was true, were quick to dismiss Kiwi Farms’ bigotry as no big deal.
“I’m a jew and the antisemitism doesn’t bother me,” wrote our old friend fistcity.
that’s just how it is in certain parts of the internet. …
I don’t know … that i’ve ever seen someone who was scary. I guess maybe the people who are really good at doxing might be scary to people. Kind of impressive really. A lot of stuff is also said in jest or just for the sake of profanity. Yeah, sometimes you see some wild ass psycho but that’s actually not most of the users. Feel like I’ve seen lots more people with normal lives, jobs, and families than I have seen like, basement dwellers.
“It’s a gossip site,” added WholeGrain.
They aren’t a hivemind and have a lot of diverse users. Threads on Jewish people will see anti-semitic users, threads on black people will have racist users, threads on right-wingers will have left-leaning users, and the threads in the beauty parlor have female users of all kinds. This is just how it is when everyone is allowed to say what they want to.
LuckyStar was pretty much ready to excuse any behavior.
I really dislike all the hate speech that is used on that website, parts of it feel like a bunch of edgy 7th graders super excited to finally use “the n word”. But tbh if the price of maintaining free speech — and thus being one of like two places left on the internet where we can speak honestly and accurately about TIMs [trans women] and call them out on their bullshit — is a bunch of edgy tweens trying out whatever bad word they learned from South Park last week then honestly I’ll take it.
Like fistcity, Lucky Star appears to live in a different universe than the rest of us.
The ugly language is gross, but TIMs are out here pushing the wholesale destruction of all of women’s rights and spaces and mass sterilization of gay and autistic youth, the urgency with which we must document their behavior and make others aware, to me far outweighs that
None of that is true, of course, but it does provide convenient cover for supporting a hate site under siege.
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I hope KF’s server catches fire, all backups ever existing turn up hopelessly corrupted and this happens after Cloudflare finally catches a glimpse of reason and stops providing them DDOS protection and domain masquerading, but not before legal entities have obtained a copy for their investigations of crimes committed.
Would a Jewish person really lowercase the word Jew?
Yeah, I think “scary” is a good guess. And I have to wonder, What is the thought process that takes you from “scary” to “impressive”?
That’s what the Trumpers said about their guy when he campaigned for president back in 2016: He’s kidding! Also, It’s locker room talk!
It is sad that people waste time gathering on sites dedicated to harassment and hate but some of described here attitudes seem to be reactions to excesses of transgender ideology. This feminist anti-trans movement is fueled also by suppression of debate about transsexualism and forceful imposing of transgender movement doctrine onto unwilling population. Free critique of transgeneder phenomenon and “non-binary” stuff should be tolerated as long as they are not hateful and make valid, fact-based arguments.
LOL, figures Incel Boy is also a transphobe.
@Feliks, you have admitted you hate women because some of us on dating sites like wine and astrology. You claim that incel ideology is fact based, and post links to incel wikis as evidence. This is an ideology responsible for literally dozens if not hundreds of murders. And you are calling us extremists? And even pretend to be skeptical about transness out of concern for women? You aren’t fooling anyone, pal.
Feliks
Name the excesses you’re so concerned about
@Feliks: on what planet is criticism of trans activism being suppressed? Is it the same
one where incel ideology is fact-based?
In reality you have transphobic articles in mainstream publications on a regular basis in the UK and the US, anti-trans legislation active or it progress in large chunk of the US and a probable next UK prime minister spewing “gender critical” talking points.
But sure, these people have no choice but to dox and harass people in order to express their opinion.
KiwiFarms is not just transphobic, they are ableist too. They have stalked and harassed people on the autism spectrum, along with all sorts of other groups of people that they don’t like.
Mass sterilization of gay and autistic youth? No idea where that nonsense comes from.
TERF, on the other hand, looks very much like a right-wing attempt to disguise gender essentialism as feminism. The rhetoric about safe spaces for women preys upon women’s feelings of vulnerability. It assumes that women are inherently vulnerable, instead of the vulnerability being a consequence of the social construct of male entitlement. Feminism isn’t merely about creating safe spaces, but about reducing the need for such spaces. Sexual equality and LGBTQ equality are fundamentally the same thing, the idea that the individual has the right to decide the course of their own life regardless of what genitalia they have.
@Jono
Yeah and in the case of at least one, manipulated and pressured her into committing crimes (incl. some pretty horrible ones), knowing full well that she was mentally disabled and suggestible. She got arrested and charged but the people who gave her the ideas? The people who used her as a weapon to act out their gross, violent fantasies? Nah.
They’ve also tried to frame people as pedos by pressuring minors to proposition them online and lie about their age (this is literally child sex abuse). And about a million other horrible things. And somehow, IDK how, they still think (or claim to think) that they are in the right. Just a bunch of utter psychopaths.
Kiwi Farmers love to use pretend that their thousands-of-pages long threads avidly documenting everything their victim does are somehow no big deal, and would never be seen by *anybody* if the victim hadn’t made such a big deal out of the discussion. It’s a flimsy excuse, I don’t think they even believe it, but it’s been their defense for years.
@Margaret
Yeah, it’s very “look what you made me do!” I guarantee you 99% of people who post there are abusive in their personal lives as well.
@kat
Yes, all the time. It’s the internet which is less formal. Plus some people are using their touch screen phones, which makes it more awkward to use caps, so young people who have spent as much time on phones as on real keyboards have often adopted a very casual approach to caps.
Plus, and I know this might come as a shock, but Jews also are subject to the occasional typo. We tried to end this with the Bonn Codicil, adjunct to the Camp David Accords, but the enforcement mechanisms were overly ambitious and replacement provisions were never ratified, despite a serious attempt to revive the issue during the Arab Spring.
There’s lots here to slam people on, but declaring people not Jewish enough isn’t helpful.
Pointing out how edge lord culture is so toxic it leads people to justify others hatred of themselves just so that they feel better about hating others, that might be a useful observation, though.
@Cyborgette
I already said you I do not identify as member of incel subculture and I don’t say I am transphobic out of concern for women, only some feminists claim that they are.
@Bakunin
Whole concept of transgenderism can be subject of critique but trans activists say it is always hateful and should be rejected. Acceptance of self-identification as notion of gender is also counterintuitive and weird. “Non-binary” gender etc. is especially stupid for me but trans activist will say I have to validate it and use some pronouns, otherwise it’s hate speech.
@SpecialFFrog
Those are exemples of reaction to percieved excesses of transgender movement, because most people don’t accept transgender beliefs. It is true that people spending their time to harass others are doing something bad and probably are abusive or have deep problems. Maybe legislators act with deeper motives than prejudice and hatred however.
@Carstonia –
I’m guessing that they think puberty blockers are permanently sterilizing people, and also that trans teenagers are gay kids who think they’re trans because of the “trans movement” (no, it doesn’t make much sense).
@Feliks – If the Gender Criticals were actually gender-critical you’d think they’d celebrate the concept of non-binary for rejecting gender norms.
@Felix
I’ve seen my cat leave better arguments in the little box.
Ah cool, you’re just transphobic for your own weird reasons then. And if you don’t ID as an incel, what should we call you? An incel apologist? A misogynistic turd? A sexist prick? A sad, deluded little man who would rather blame an entire gender for his lack of nookie, than do any work on himself?
Ah, “counterintuitive and weird”, the best benchmark for whether something is rational and true. Einstein’s general theory of relativity has been proven almost beyond doubt countless times, but its lack of a fixed frame of reference or universally constant flow of time are “counterintuitive and weird”, so it’s right out. Surely our resident genius Feliks knows better, and common sense still reigns supreme in life.
And no, FYI most of us don’t consider it hate speech to misgender us. What we do consider it is insulting and tiring. Kind of like if I called you a woman and constantly referred to you with she/her pronouns, refused to stop, and got offended when you insisted you were a man.
@Feliks
That is the stupidest, most victim-blamey excuse. Oh no, they’re not bad people, they’re just reacting to perceived excesses! They don’t hate women, they just think it’s weird and concerning that women are making more money than men, and going around in public with piercings and dyed hair! They don’t hate Black people, they’re just concerned about miscegenation and the effect on the gene pool! They don’t hate Jews, they’re just worried about those weird men with hats and beards corrupting innocent Christian children, and also isn’t matzoh traditionally made with the blood of those children? We know most Jews these days don’t do that, but still, shouldn’t matzoh be outlawed just in case, instead of, like… sold in grocery stores?
^^^ This is how you sound. Concern trolling is a bad look on anyone, and triply so on a man like you who we already know to be a misogynistic bigot.
Most of this is wrong, Feliks. When some cissexist jerk says that these things are true, you don’t have to accept them as true without evidence.
The ontology of gender and nature of of experience or identity required for something to be described as transgender experience or transgender identity has been the subject of debate and critique within trans communities for decades and decades.
Acceptance of self-identification might seem counterintuitive and weird to you in an internet conversation and as a general principle, but what’s weirder, when someone says “Sir” to someone wearing jeans and a leather jacket, getting corrected, “No, it’s ma’am,” and then saying “Sorry!” Or the same thing, but instead of “Sorry!” the person who initially said, “Sir,” says, “I refuse to accept your self-identification!”
Granting priority to self-identification is mere recognition of the fact that, on average, I know myself better than other people know me, and that, on average, I will make mistakes about my own nature less often than other people will.
The truth is that priority to self-identification is the norm in our society. If someone describes me as white and I say, “No, I’m Jewish,” we could have a conversation about that and debate how white Jewishness really is, but most people simply accept the remark and move on. It’s not weird at all, until someone makes it weird.
“Non-binary” gender may be “especially stupid for [you],” but
1) we’re not all as stupid as you,
and
2) you don’t have to “validate” it, you can simply walk away,
and
3) failure to speak is never hate speech, so failure to use a pronoun is never hate speech. You might choose not to use a particular pronoun because you hate someone, but the failure to speak is not hate speech. Even if it’s hateful, it’s not speech, so it’s not hate speech. This isn’t hard for most of us.
Finally, why do you give a fuck if someone thinks you hate them? You think they’re stupid, so it’s not like you’re going to be hanging out together anyway. Shouldn’t trans people be just as free to think you’re a bigoted idiot as you are to think that granting priority to self-identification is counterintuitive and weird?
Why do you hate freedom so much, Feliks? Why?
@David
Although I, myself, have responded to Feliks b/c I think that the disinformation and misinformation needs to be countered, I have to wonder whether it’s worth it to even allow comments from someone who models themselves after a corrupt and murderous tyrant who opposed any freedom, no matter how small.
@Feliks
Ignoring the inflammatory phrasing, at what point should this not matter?
At present, support for trans rights is around 55%, and all indications is that this number is slowly growing. Against trans rights is around 35%. And about another 10% sorta mostly okay with trans rights so long as trans people are largely hidden and silenced, which doesn’t actually work in real life. And that’s in the US, which is in the top 3 most conservative countries in the western world. Yes, I know you probably don’t believe that, but maybe you should get out of your social bubble a bit more?
Now I’m aware that popularity doesn’t imply ethically or morally correct. After all, the US Supreme Court has been making multiple rulings to the effect that even 70% popularity isn’t enough to overturn legal traditions which were near-continuously forced on people with no say in government from 1215 to 1775… unless it was a particularly popular position among southern white male landowners in the early-to-mid 1800s, in which case it may or may not get grandfathered in, depending on Samuel Alito’s mood that day. [/heavy sarcasm].
But at the same time, popularity *does* matter in any society where people have some say over their government. So… at what point does the majority get to say “actually, yes, you *do* have to conform to the same standards everyone else accepts, even if you consider it to be ‘forcing doctrine on an unwilling population’?” 70%? 80%? 90%? The point when they’re smaller in number than the other groups which they insist on oppressing? Or are you going to claim that this is a fight between transgender people and anti-trans people, and everyone else should just sit on the sidelines even if some of them have a personal stake in how it all turns out? Because that’s not how things have *ever* worked.
Rumor has it that using the official report abusive content function on Cloudflare will lead to Cloudflare giving your name and email to the party you’re complaining about. Beware.
Also, I second banning Feliks. For someone who claims to be really into talking about philosophy, he’s remarkably bad at discussing anything.
@Carstonio
There’s also the argument (based on Simon Baron-Cohen’s questionable theory that people on the autistic spectrum have more “masculine” minds regardless of their sex) that girls on the autistic spectrum are naturally “tomboyish” and hence in danger of being brainwashed into thinking their trans boys. Also crap, of course.
I was a very feminine autistic child. I just was feminine in the wrong way and I didn’t like sports. So they other kids didn’t like me
Right wingers are such damn babies. Right wing hate speech is proliferate on every single social media and video sharing platform. Every last one. The one and only thing that causes even a whisper of pushback is when they take it offline and do swatting. Yet they all act like they’re being brutally repressed.
Meanwhile, Twitter has suspended me twice in the past handful of weeks for comments that don’t actually violate the terms of service because if you’re on the left you’re held to an impossible standard of conduct while accounts named @Pepe1488basedHitler who post oven dodger jokes roam freely.
I’m pretty convinced Twitter has changed their policies to favor the right wing in the past few months. Multiple people I follow have been harassed off the site recently. The “gays against groomers” anti-trans account run by a literal Nazi keeps getting permanently suspended and then brought back and they’ve done nothing about the “libs of tiktok” account even though she’s orchestrated terror campaigns against Boston Children’s Hospital, who’ve had to have the FBI get involved.
I honestly worry that social medias companies are assuming authoritarianism will seize power in places where it hasn’t already and are shifting their policies in advance to butter up the right wing politicians.
@WWTH
Yes, I think they are, and also are doing their damnedest to ensure that authoritarians take power everywhere. And news media likewise. The stuff going on with CNN lately is nightmare worthy. I figure they all intend to make off like IG Farben.