I…worked on this story for years..and…he just…he posted it on Psychology Today.
This screenshot has been bouncing around Twitter today, highlighting a column by couples therapist Greg Matos that attempts to explain just where men and women stand in the dating marketplace today. And though he couches his insights in highly euphemistic ways, I think he’s got the basics right: straight men are doing poorly in the dating world, especially online, because straight women are getting more and more fed up with their bullshit.
He begins by looking at dating apps — which many in the manosphere think have destroyed dating because all the endless flattery women allegedly get on these apps has made them spoiled and only interested in dating the hottest Chads. None of which is true.
The real issue for men on dating apps is a basic mathematical one: there are more of them than there are women.
“[U]pwards of 62% of users are men,” Matos writes, “and many women are overwhelmed with how many options they have.”
That’s one way of putting it, I guess, albeit a somewhat misleading one. Women aren’t overcome by too many good options on dating apps; they’re wading through a fast flowing river of dick pics and crude, generic come-ons from guys who are likely to react with rage if they’re turned down directly.
Take it away, Incel Pickup Lines Twitter account, which collects and posts screenshots of failed come-ons online (and which you should all follow).
Even serious Marxist scholars can have trouble talking to the ladies.
But that actually leads us pretty neatly to Matos’ next observation.
With so many options, it’s not surprising that women are increasingly selective. I do a live TikTok show (@abetterloveproject) and speak with hundreds of audience members every week; I hear recurring dating themes from women between the ages of 25 and 45: They prefer men who are emotionally available, good communicators, and share similar values.
Again, he’s being just a teensy bit euphemistic here. By “good communications” he means “guys that don’t say these things.”
And that leads to Matos’ next point: If guys want to beat the odds and actually meet a live woman who would like to date them, they’re going to have to make some real changes in how they think about and act around women. As Matos puts it, euphemistically as always, guys have serious dating “skill deficits” they need to clear up.
For men, this means a relationship skills gap that, if not addressed, will likely lead to fewer dating opportunities, less patience for poor communication skills, and longer periods of being single. …
Level up your mental health game. That means getting into some individual therapy to address your skills gap. It means valuing your own internal world and respecting your ideas enough to communicate them effectively. It means seeing intimacy, romance, and emotional connection as worthy of your time and effort.
Well, at least some guys are already trying just a little bit harder not to be the world’s most grotesque creeps.
I mean, at least this guy apologized for the “mistake” he’s 100% guaranteed to repeat with another woman, and another, and another.
And this guy? At least he’s asking. AT LEAST HE’S ASKING.
Baby steps, baby steps.
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As a former male user (or should I say in fashionable way, “survivor”) of dating apps, I feel very bad, seeing this bullshit blaming of unsuccesful male users for their failure on those apps. I tried many times, created profiles with my best pictures, written information about my interests, education etc., all in neutral, nice or sometimes humorous ways. I look average, I am tall and live in big city in Central Europe. Of course over 2 years I had zero meaningful conwersations, zero dates off Tinder and maybe 10% of “matches” even responded to me. I tried very hard. Several weeks on Tinder completely destroyed my confidence and self image. This toxic shit is addicting even with no positive results. I strongly believe dating apps harm male mental health and can genuinely make bitter misogynist of normal or even feminist man. My experience is in no way unique, I heard and read dozens stories like mine, I read articles and saw polls about this. And yet some women and men, who either didn’t tried it or are very succesful claim that it is my fault, not the algorythms and female preference, just be nice and you can have Tinder date. Thanks for advice, I didn’t know I shouldn’t be online sexist, loutish, rude etc., you enlightened me, now I will try being nice on Tinder and sending polite texts, it never occured to me! Surely now I will succeed.
That was sarcasm.
Probably author of this post criticised somewhere else “mansplaing” as stemming from narrow perspective and ignorance towards others’ experience…
@rusalka
There are obviously men who do not fall into this pattern and they end up being lumped together with the problematic ones. But when I was online dating I remember needing to be selective in part because the men who were reaching out to me were not being selective. I had a few conditions on my profile that I was very explicit about (age, location, parental status etc). And I had so many men outside of those parameters that still ended up contacting me. If they had read my profile more carefully, then I wouldn’t have had to shoot down as many people. And why would they have wanted to reach out to someone who has already said she’s not interested in them?
The fact that there are more men on dating apps does make it harder for them to pair up than for women. But at the same time, the shotgun approach that many men take forces women to be more selective (or at least appear to be) because there are so many people reaching out to them that are not who they’re looking for.
That sort of wide net approach also requires that each individual message is less tailored to a specific woman and makes the gap in communication/relationship skills appear to be larger than it might be. When guys were reaching out to me and their messages were super generic and not really relevant to anything I had listed as my interests, I was just not interested in them. The ones that got dates with me were those who I could tell took the time to look through my profile and make a connection with me.
I reached out to fewer men than I got contacted by as well. But it wasn’t because I was expecting men to fawn over me, it was more that I was trying to contact only men who I felt like I had something in common with or that I could connect with in some way.
I think the comments David highlighted are extreme examples of the same thinking.
@Feliks
If a man becomes a misogynist after being unsuccessful on a dating app, he was always a misogynist.
Also, online dating is hard/a numbers game. Tinder is more of a superficial/hookup app. Women are often overwhelmed with messages (mostly by guys who didn’t really read the profile) and respond very selectively. Online dating/meeting strangers can be dangerous for women and requires extra caution (which may mean not responding to someone who is actually fine but gives off the wrong vibes).
@bumblebug
I am not sure, he can be average frustrated guy, but looking at female profiles on Tinder is extremely depressing and convinces that allegedly mysoginist stereotypes are statistically true.
@Feliks Dzierżyński
If you were absolutely flooded with messages from potential suitors i am quite certain you would respond thoughtfully to
EVERY
SINGLE
ONE
It would be very unfair if you didn’t.
Right?
I’m tempted to set up an online dating account but do it so if anyone swipes on me that knight pops up and says “You chose poorly.”
@Feliks
You know what else is depressing?
Getting constant messages commenting on your body and what will be done to it from people who are outside your very explicit dating parameters when you have no photos that show below your collar bones. Or getting comments on your body from a colleague that found you on a dating website. Or getting angry lash back when you try to politely try to tell someone that if they had read your profile that they would know you aren’t interested. Or having someone try to convince you when you turn them down that just because they’re twice as old as your upper bound and only looking for something casual (while you’ve specified you are not interested in casual flings) that you should still meet up with them because life is too short and you’re a prude if you don’t want casual sex.
After a certain point it’s better for your mental health to just not engage with people you’re not interested in.
Women are constantly harassed online. That is not an excuse to think poorly of all men as a group. Similarly not getting dates is not a reason to become a misogynistic asshole for men.
I stand by my statement. If not getting a date from a dating app makes you a misogynist, you were one all along. Women don’t owe you attention. Sure it sucks to not find a partner and it’s rough on your self image (men aren’t the only ones who struggle with online dating), but you aren’t entitled to anyone’s time or attention.
@Alan
If I was still on the market, I’d honestly probably reach out and message you after seeing a profile like that.
@Alan
Yes, theory of mind tends to be used in more writing from a cognitive perspective and mentalization used in other circles, but they are talking about mostly the same thing.
I can’t really speak for the examples we often see here, there’s definitely a lot of dehumanization that feels more extreme than what I’m thinking of.
I don’t know how common it is, my sample size is pretty skewed by being composed of people looking for help, but I have found a mildly disturbing number of men to need a LOT more prompting / encouragement before they are able to walk through “what do you think she was thinking?” It doesn’t have to be as obvious as someone who calls women foids, there are “perfectly nice” men who seem to have never really thought about what their girlfriend is actually feeling, because she’s more of a supportive accessory to their lives than a “real” person.
I’m not exactly sure what a “waifu” is, but given where I’ve encountered that word, I’m pretty sure it’s not something one should say to a person one hasn’t even met face-to-face yet.
@Feliks
Your dating woes are due to capitalism, patriarchy, and yourself. Capitalism, because dating sites are designed for addictiveness and maximum engagement instead of helping people find partners. Patriarchy, because women are terrified of who you and other men might turn out to be, and the penalty for guessing wrong is very, very, very steep. Yourself, because (just for starters) you’re angry at women in general for systemic issues that we’re not responsible for, and only insofar as those issues affect you, at that.
As a woman, if we were having this conversation by DM on OkCupid, I would just block you and move on. As a former man who used dating sites, and also looked at a lot of women’s profiles, I have little sympathy for men whose response is more misogyny rather than even the most basic empathy and desire to learn better. Fix your heart and you might be able to find a date some day.
<i>As a former male user (or should I say in fashionable way, “survivor”) of dating apps…</i>
Calling oneself a “survivor” of a non-lethal event, and then pretending it’s a “fashionable” thing to say, isn’t really “fashionable;” it’s just stupid and childish.
@Feliks Dzierżyński
.
If women exercising their agency in not dating men they have no interest in turns you into a “misogynist” then you were already that way inclined to begin with.
And given that you have compared not being able to get a date to bring a victim of abuse or trauma then that tells me a lot about you.
And nothing good.
Lots of women also have no luck with dating platforms. In years of using Tinder I was only contacted by guys looking for casual relationships so you know what I did? Deleted the app and moved on. I did not start hating men as a group. Women don’t own you time, attention or a date. You need to do the emotional work to understand why you have made being in a relationship such an important part of your character to this extent.
I also do think as a collective men can be held to account for not having success with dating platforms. If men are over 60%+ of users then we have to ask what is happening to chase women away from these platforms?
@bumblebug
You are mostly right but I didn’t say that only not getting appointments makes someone misogynist. It is also no positive feedback and interactions despite having normal profile and being moderately attractive (which makes you think about how hard ugly men have it there) and looking at profiles of women, their descriptions and hobbys – after seeing a lot you may only hope that female users aren’t representative of general female population.
@Steph
Not having luck on dating apps for women means no highest quality men fitting narrow critieria pursuing them, and for men it can mean no matches/no conversations at all.
I am not native English speaker and I know that “survivor” is not traditional word, being recently popular instead of “victim”, so I used it.
@Feliks
For you, a “low quality woman” might be someone who’s incompatible with you – wrong working hours, wrong personality, etc. Genuinely dangerous women exist but you’re not likely to meet them.
For us, a “low quality man” might be someone who beats us, rapes us, steals from us, manipulates and pressures us into marriage… Often all of the above and more. That’s not a majority of men (AFAIK) but it’s a lot; some studies have found that 30% of men have committed rape in their lifetimes, and 15% are serial rapists. If you faced odds like that, you would be choosy too.
@Feliks, first of all, just because any individual woman’s dating criteria don’t include you specifically doesn’t mean they’re “narrow,” or that she’s looking for some sort of superior quality that no ordinary man can meet. Second of all, different women can have wildly different criteria. If you find that you don’t meet any woman’s standard, ever, you should at the very least reconsider what you put in your profile. And frankly, “highest quality men fitting narrow critieria” sounds like just another iteration of “Hypergamy! Women only want Chads/Alphas/Bad Boys/men who aren’t me!” ranting that goes on in incel circles.
@Feliks
.
Incels truly do say the darnedest things.
This is not true. In the slightest. And no, not getting a date does not make you a “victim”.
@ Feliks Dzierżyński
I get that Tinder can be very demoralizing, feeling like you are swiping mindlessly to no effect, but mileage may vary depending on where you are and what you are shooting for, and if any hints of a bad attitude or misogyny leak through, that can kill things before they start.
When I tried Tinder, I was a skinny dweeb with basically zero dating experience, it was during Covid with most matches occurring with women over an hour away in major cities when I had a car that wasn’t really safe to be on the road, never had friends growing up to give me any examples of how to do any of this, was way over my head flirting, etc, etc… my point being my odds were not very good.
However, I did have interest and did go on a few dates. As befitting my “I really don’t know what I’m doing here” approach, the women ranged wildly in personalities, body types, interests, etc. Shorter/taller, lighter/heavier, younger/older, shy/aggressive, highly educated/couldn’t spell “education”, hadn’t dated in years/had a new guy every week, was looking for marriage/a couple seeking a third, model gorgeous/best described as “plain”, etc, etc.
So, I’m not trying to make comparisons here per se, or brag, but… yeah, no, I kind of am. I am not a shining example of anything, and yet I managed some interest, and upon reflection, if I had simply been more of a go-getter/had a car I could trust, I likely would have gotten more than just a few dates.
That being said, I have to be honest and say there were a lot of rejections and failures, and quite frankly at times it was depressing. Since it eventually felt like it was doing more damage to my mental health than was worth it, I gave up.
However, since I have gotten a reliable car now, a new job, will be moving to one of the major cities in the next few months, and have been working on getting my head in a better space*, I am going to revisit that premise soon enough. I predict success of some kind or another, but we will see.
*Easier said than done these days, with the climate going to hell, wars, new diseases every five minutes, and who knows what else. I am presently recovering from one of the latest Covid variants right now actually, but as my ability to walk up stairs without pausing to breathe improves, my attitude is too. Take what you can I suppose.
I want to know what these terrible female hobbies are
@Feliks
I am curious – what are you defining as the “highest quality man”?
@Feliks
I’ll trade you lack of response for sexual harassment. You may have been ignored during your time on dating apps, but most women I know have been sexually harassed and had extremely disgusting comments made about them.
I’m hoping this is not what you mean, but it really sounds like you have a problem with women having narrow parameters for their prospective dates. You do know that no one owes anyone else a chance, right? You can also be picky.
As an example, my parameters for dating were:
1. No more than 3 years younger or 5 years older
2. Not an undergrad student at the college where I was a TA (mostly for conflict of interest reasons)
3. Not into partying (I don’t drink or enjoy going to clubs so this was a compatibility issue)
4. Willing to spend a few weeks talking online before meeting
5. Looking for a long term relationship
6. Comfortable with me (likely) being more highly educated
I think my list was pretty representative of the lists other women I know had for someone to “pass” their initial screening. After that it was down to attraction, quality of conversation, and compatibility.
Like Steph, I also would like to know what these horrible “female” hobbies you saw were.
Yes, I too would like to hear about these hobbies.
I avoided obvious partying types where the “hobbies” seem to include heavy drinking and the more extreme outdoors adventuring, sports, etc, and found after a while of swiping and the odd matching that I do seem to have a type: Artistic.
And this seems to make sense. I haven’t a great deal of artistic talent, but I am interested in it and have dabbled here and there. Knowing just enough to ask an intelligent question or give a meaningful compliment, but so little the person gets to educate you on their passion is kind of a cheat code.
@ .45
I have zero artistic talent, or aspirations. I couldn’t draw a bath. I actually find though that really helps me with liking art. It’s like I have no baggage. I don’t have to look at something and compare it to anything I’ve created. So I can just step back and enjoy other people’s talent. Same with music.
But I can also see how being into art like yourself also enhances your appreciation. I guess its a win-win.
@ Alan Robertshaw
I think from what you have posted here you have a lot better understanding of art in general than I, even if you consider it to be more theoretical.
As I recall, you have stories of what you have seen other people do, post pictures of classic oil paintings and such, things that are outside my wheelhouse, while I am more “That’s awesome. I tried that once and the result was horrible. How do you do it right?”