The other day, a fan of Jordan Peterson went to check out the subreddit devoted to the fusspot psychologist and right-wing culture warrior. The fan was a little confused when he discovered that the subreddit was filled, not so much with discussions of Peterson and his works, but with endless posts about trans people. So he asked why.
Apparently that’s not the sort of question you should ask the regulars of the Jordan Peterson subreddit, and the thread was quickly inundated with hundreds of vaguely indignant replies explaining just why they need to talk about trans people all the time (along with some not-so-vaguely indignant comments from others who aren’t so happy that the subreddit is awash in transphobes). It’s worth noting that Peterson first catapulted to fame by having a very public tantrum about pronouns, so it’s not a surprise to see rampant transphobia amongst his fans.
In the top comment of the discussion, with more than 300 upvotes, someone called Wasting_Time272 explained that the subreddit’s anti-trans obsession wasn’t the result of hate; it had to do with protecting Truth from the trans irrationalists.
People suffering from gender dysphoria are, in a way, rejecting truth in that they are rejecting biological reality. …
The issue arrives when those people desire that their view of reality is accepted by society at large. … This pushes directly against the idea of objective truth which is fundamental to western culture and religion and therefore in disagreement with the teaching Jordan espouses.
Er, how is “truth” fundamental to western religion? I mean, even if you’re not an atheist who thinks all of religion is made up, different religions, and even the various branches of these religions, believe radically different and contradictory things. Religion isn’t about proving things are true; it’s about having faith in things that can’t be proved.
Speaking of religion, yearsofexpertise suggested it was the trans folks who were the true religious fanatics, trying to foist their own religion of transness on the rest of the world.
[T]here’s been too many people that have made this concept [transness] their “religion” that they’re trying to force on the masses … to such an extent that any questioning of it will get you deemed a heretic and will get you, virtually (in its double entendre), burned at the stake, tortured, or attacked like modern-day Spanish Inquisition.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
ArnGreil thinks the LGBTQ’s have already gone too far.
The change that gay community want has already gone over the boundaries of what’s socially accepted; long ago. Most people were okay with it, if it would just be kept to their privacy. … [N]ow, they want to attack the society, by forcing children to hear their thoughts, see their censored behaviour, accept their imoral behaviour??? Yeah, that’s too far, and deserve assertive reaction.
He’s also opposed to pride parades, which
shouldn’t exist in the first place in our society; homosexual behavior should been restricted to privacy … .
Elsewhere in the discussion, ArnGreil blamed all the controversies on radical trans activists who were deliberately trying to offend, “purposely making the society resentful against trans?” (But why?)
He urged Trans people to rein in their more radical comrades “or accept the justified resentment of parents and families that see their kids threatened by this new homosexual agenda.”
AkiWookie is also not a fan of Pride Month, which he dismissed as “an entire month to be perverts in parades.”
Despite all this not-terribly-well-concealed hatred, Chendo89 insisted that
Nobody truly hates LGTBQ people, that’s a projection in your mind because secretly you think there’s something wrong with them. LGTBQ community is more accepted than ever in society as a whole. …
People objecting to trans women competing in biologically classified womens sports doesn’t mean they hate trans people or want them eliminated. Not wanting your young child to be exposed to gender theory at a very young and impressionable age is not the same as hating LGTBQ folks, it’s common sense.
But, like ArnGreil, Chendo89 believes that a small group of sex radicals are trying to pollute the debate and get everybody mad.
There’s … fringe people out there always looking for a way to provoke violence or threats … .
Most of the LGTBQ activists we see today aren’t even members of the community themselves, they’ve hijacked it for their own political aims or goals, and know they can hide under the banner of compassion and inclusion while ultimately destroying the LGTBQ community from within.
Why trans activists would want to do this isn’t exactly clear.
They’re the real danger and the ones who truly are endangering LGTBQ folks. They know pushing things to the extreme will provoke a reaction and that’s what they’re hoping for.
By deploying drag queens to read books to children? How drag queens became a symbol of trans radicalism I will never quite understand.
Zubecci also had thoughts about these evil activists.
They care about LGBT+’s as long as they can use that empathy to spite white men, their imagined white male boogeyman who wants to oppress all black people, women, and everyone who isn’t a straight white male, who really represents their father.
Thanks, Dr. Freud.
They don’t give a shit about these “oppressed” groups or any of the racism/bigotry they receive if there isn’t a white male involved who they can publicly condemn.
White men, the ultimate all-time world-champion of self-appointed victims.
Theoldcandle offered some thoughts on the fraught subject of … drag queens. After another commenter noted that Bugs Bunny sometimes dressed as a woman in old cartoon and no one seemed bothered by that, Theoldcandle drew a line between harmless and harmful drag, which seems to revolve around whether or not the drag queens are real humans or animated animals.
There’s a clear as day difference between it being done for comedic effect, or in a silly, humorous way, vs. it being done with an malicious agenda behind it.
Wait, there’s such a thing as “malicious” drag?
[A]ny time it happens in a cartoon is usually done in a way to make it obvious that it’s a lighthearted joke. … I recall many instances in Spongebob where he appeared for a split second looking girlish, but it would done as a joke and as a humorous plot device, or random nonsense. No one thinks anything of that for good reason. Same with Bugs Bunny, it’s always as a random ass nonsensical joke.
And that’s just fine, apparently.
Now, if I see a guy in drag, twerking and shit, near a bunch of kids, then that’s makes it totally different. Especially the way a lot of people in drag dress doesn’t look cartoonish or silly. It looks disgusting. So, there’s a huge difference.
I’m pretty sure the drag queens are reading, not twerking. And hell, even if they were twerking, which they aren’t, little kids don’t see that as sexual; they see it as silly. Because they’re little kids who don’t know what sex is.
Glitter-Pompeii insisted, wrongly, that
Drag is literally cross dressing burlesque. It’s designed to be sexual. That’s literally the point. That’s why you give them money.
Dude, I think you’re confusing drag queens with strippers. It’s hard enough getting a drag outfit on, or so I hear, so why would anyone want to take it off in public? Some drag queens strive for “realness” but others — like the ones reading stories in libraries — play it for laughs.
Moving on from drag queens, MojoGolf left this perplexing comment;
A big issue that the world faces at this moment in time is government tyranny being advanced through empathy and even a step past that; pressure to conform so not to be viewed as a racist, bigot, or basically a plague of society.
Wait, yet another reference to “empathy” as a bad thing? Are you guys all reading Ayn Rand on the side?
We are now seeing schools propagandizing children by forcefully playing the role of parents, freedoms being diminished for security, and the social justice mindset becoming their religion. All of these are historical signs of a growing tyrannical movement that has gained too much traction; something that JP and many of the phycologists that inspire him have spoken about extensively.
I would like to hear more about these “phycologists.”
The trans issues that you brought up have been highjacked and bolstered as part of that political SJW ideology that is being force fed by tyrants in order to further conformity, powers, and division.
“Force fed by tyrants,” really? By having to refer to trans people as “they” once in a while.
We’re on the cusp of a real — not semantic — tyranny at the hands of a radicalized religious right, aided and abetted by a former president who literally tried to coup himself into dictator for life, and you guys are complaining about the alleged tyranny of the word “they.”
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I will die in the foreseeable future (maybe in 25 years, tops – if unsurprised by a more sudden fate), but I must say I enjoy every conscious breath, every sip of water, every sound I hear, when my mind’s not occupied otherwise.
When I read the various useless, desperate, ugly things you search out for us – and it doesn’t seem like you have to search very hard! – I realize that very, very, very many other human beings use their brief time alive and conscious to lock themselves inside their own future corpse, and then complain at everyone annoying them by being alive. Even our being a little alive.
All are welcome to resume the life they were born to have, but may they all stay as basically cowardly and impotent as they are now until they do!
There’s a lot to be disgusted by in those posts, but I’m hung up on “tyranny being advanced through empathy.” Say what? No matter how I squint and turn my head, I can’t make sense of that one.
a) Jordy and them can all fuck right off into the sun, and take 2/3 of the Supreme Court with them.
b) David, I love that you call JP “fusspot”. It’s the perfect word for him. Why boys who want to be Manly would take advice from him remains a mystery, with his hissy fits and benzo addiction and all. He’s reminiscent of Lindsay Graham.
Thanks for all your work on this. Just to be clear, all of this is a very well-coordinated political strategy from right wing extremists (which sounds like a conspiracy theory but actually isn’t). 🙂 https://politicalresearch.org/2022/06/14/self-described-christian-fascist-movement-trying-sabotage-lgbtq-pride-month
@Another Laura
The kind of people that would say that “empathy is tyranny”: are basically saying that they are amoral and belligerently apathetic people who find it a personal affront and even oppression at the notion that they “not being a raging asshole of malice” at people is frowned upon.
In short; they are people who are driven by cruelty and contempt and general malevolence feeling out upon that they can’t gleefully harm others without repercussions.
“you guys are complaining about the alleged tyranny of the word “they.””
Of course they are. All this bs about leftist tyranny creates an excuse for these guys to go on killing rampages soon, which is all they want. It doesn’t need to be a plausible excuse, just something they can point to to justify mass murder.
@Another Laura:
I’ve encountered this sort of talk before, and (unfortunately) have a pretty good idea of what it means. Basically, that the victimized and/or oppressed are that way for a reason, and that reason is usually because their nature is evil. So you should ignore their attempts to manipulate you into pitying them, else they might prey upon you or seize power so they can prey upon others.
To these people, empathy is to be carefully rationed and properly directed, otherwise wicked folk might take advantage of you.
…though in the case of Peterson and his fans, I suspect it’s more along the lines of “don’t indulge the delusional in their delusions, because they will take over and force their delusions on everyone.”
I have something to confess: in real life, I wear glasses. That is, I reject the biological reality of being short-sighted and am therefore rejecting truth.
I am forcing my view of reality on society at large by forcing innocent people to pretend that my glasses are normal and not an assault against Truth. If I really accepted “the idea of objective truth,” I’d go around squinting.
/s
And, all too often, in things that can be proved false.
To someone whose worldview doesn’t simply contain “people”, but instead “masters of the universe” along with “ambulatory sex toys”, I guess it can indeed be threatening if some of the former make themselves look like the latter, and vice-versa … you can no longer tell on sight whether you might be over- or under-respecting someone, or whether it would be gayer if you were to hit on them or if you conspicuously didn’t do so. Yikes!
Pre transition I was depressed all the time, couldn’t function as an adult in society, couldn’t hold down a job, and was basically a total doormat. Post transition I’m a normal functional person despite physical disability. Obvs this is a patriarchal capitalist way to measure people’s lives, but still: what kind of ostensible self help movement wants people like me to be constantly depressed and accomplish nothing in life?
“Therefore in disagreement with the teachings Jordan espouses” this guys sounds like he’s a cult member.
https://www.alternet.org/2022/06/roes-demise-has-pushed-the-u-s-even-closer-to-violent-civil-conflict-author/
Looking more and more like the boogaloo bois are about to learn the meaning of “be careful what you wish for” …
@Cyborgette:
How does one tell if that’s what one needs to function better? Dysphoria?
@Ninja Socialist:
A common pattern with the right wing these days. You see the same thing with a few different names substituted for “Jordan”, including “Trump”, “Rand”, “Friedmann”, “Hayek”, “Mises”, “Roosh”, “Vox Day” … some of these are allegedly “economists”, some are alt-right or incel heroes, some are from decades ago, some made their names during Gamergate or more recently, and one is Hairpiece Hitler, and every one of them has some sort of bizarre asshole following … and, more often than not, a book to sell you. “The Art of 12 Rules Shrugged to Serfdom: Bang!” or something like that.
Often a sequel, too: “12 More Rules for Fountainhead: Electric Boogaloo”, anyone?
Haha, gold.
Good to know that my decadelong attempt to reject my transness can be classidied as ‘wilful rejection of Truth’ because I failed in the end. Because trans was clearly something I wanted to be during that time.
Whelp this is literally just a recycled version of the “Jews deliberately provoke otherwise nonexistent antisemitism For Nefarious Reasons” conspiracy trope
David wrote:
Personally, I can’t even tell if “drag queens reading books to children” is actually a Thing in the US lately, or if it’s mostly something rightwing media makes up from a few stray cases.
What would be the pedagogical idea behind these drag queen story hours and children’s drag workshops? I could see it being an introduction to gender non-conformity and freedom of gender expression. But why specifically drag, and why specifically queens?
When rightwingers rage against this, some people apparently try to counter them by saying, “it’s just fun for the kids, who see it as meaningless costume play”. This seems vaguely disingenuous to me, and it clearly doesn’t convince any rightwingers. They seem to consider it very self-evident that these drag events are indeed about introducing children to the concepts of gender non-conformity and freedom of gender expression (ie. “malicious agenda” according to rightwingers). This rejection of “gender ideology” underlies all the bullshit (that may or may not be genuinely believed) about sexual indecency, sexualization and sexual grooming of children etc.
Regarding “comedic drag”, this seems to be the kind of traditional humor trope that mostly revolves around making fun of women and femininity, without any examination of gender or acknowledgement that drag or crossdressing could be part of one’s self-expression. One can easily see how this reads as harmless to conservatives and the traditional patriarchy. A Twitter acquaintance of mine recently noted that this sort of thing was present in German mainstream TV comedy around 1990, a relatively conservative era. In a recent thread, Alan wrote about the British panto tradition, though I didn’t read it closely and couldn’t say how it compares. US popular culture examples may be mostly from animated comedy, but that’s coincidental.
@Surplus
In my case, I couldn’t tell, until I started dating a trans woman and things started clicking. It’s not social contagion so much as just… not being alone? You start interacting with people like you, and all the weird things you couldn’t quite name or describe start converging on a known solution.
If the reactionaries isolate us, take that knowledge out of the mainstream, murder our community elders… It’s like seedlings planted wrong, damping out or getting killed by frost. We never find the way out, we get gradually more broken and fucked up and eventually kill ourselves. So of course they want to destroy our cultures – they can’t destroy us forever on a biological level (yet), but if they can keep us isolated and trapped in patriarchy…
Fun? Drag Race has been on TV since 2009. Kids know that drag is entertainment. And dressing up is fun. Would you ask the same questions if it was clown story hour and clown workshops?
Speaking of drag queen story hour, I second the “fun” aspect, but based on the few videos I’ve seen, it’s not a case of passive fun, the way TV can be. The drag queens I’ve seen (admittedly a small number) did a great job engaging the kids, making sure they could see the illustrations in the case of picture books, and asking them, “Do YOU ever have to [do something the character is doing]?” Really a classic approach.
As far as the kids are concerned, they’re getting read to by somebody they find entertaining, somebody who’s wearing a really neat outfit. If I’d been a kid, I’d’ve found a drag queen less scary than a clown – I still remember being frightened of a Ringling/Barnum clown when I was very small. A drag queen reading a book at the library? I would’ve found that fascinating.
I’d like to let Zubecci know that as a woman who has been white for 62 years now, I feel quite spiteful (and distrustful) towards white men that I don’t personally know. They are all Shrodinger’s rapist/racist/transphobe/homophobe/xenophobe/etc.
That’s because I actually care about other people and they only care about themselves. I am also able to differentiate between individuals and I know that you fellows are very different from my husband, male friends and relatives, and most of all, my father who was a very live-and- let-live sort.
rejecting a perspective on reality is not the same as rejecting reality. the reality is that i was assigned male at birth. their perspective is that this reality should serve as a major basis for my identity, that this reality defines my existence in terms of normative behavior as determined by…. whose authority?
what’s all this about tyranny then?
LouCPurr:
Ok. So, does it relate in any way to transgender rights, as conservatives claim?
I might, if children’s clowns were a subject of significant political controversy.
I’m somewhat familiar with the cosplay scene, which used to be my standard mental image of “dressing up is fun”. I’d imagine all kinds of fantasy costumes (even outside of copyrighted children’s characters) would be good for this sort of entertainment. For all I know, this could be actually what “drag for children” basically means.
Conservatives aren’t associating drag with transgender rights, they’re associating it with the old idea that gays recruit children. Drag for kids is actually about entertaining kids, not about transgender rights.