The other day, a fan of Jordan Peterson went to check out the subreddit devoted to the fusspot psychologist and right-wing culture warrior. The fan was a little confused when he discovered that the subreddit was filled, not so much with discussions of Peterson and his works, but with endless posts about trans people. So he asked why.
Apparently that’s not the sort of question you should ask the regulars of the Jordan Peterson subreddit, and the thread was quickly inundated with hundreds of vaguely indignant replies explaining just why they need to talk about trans people all the time (along with some not-so-vaguely indignant comments from others who aren’t so happy that the subreddit is awash in transphobes). It’s worth noting that Peterson first catapulted to fame by having a very public tantrum about pronouns, so it’s not a surprise to see rampant transphobia amongst his fans.
In the top comment of the discussion, with more than 300 upvotes, someone called Wasting_Time272 explained that the subreddit’s anti-trans obsession wasn’t the result of hate; it had to do with protecting Truth from the trans irrationalists.
People suffering from gender dysphoria are, in a way, rejecting truth in that they are rejecting biological reality. …
The issue arrives when those people desire that their view of reality is accepted by society at large. … This pushes directly against the idea of objective truth which is fundamental to western culture and religion and therefore in disagreement with the teaching Jordan espouses.
Er, how is “truth” fundamental to western religion? I mean, even if you’re not an atheist who thinks all of religion is made up, different religions, and even the various branches of these religions, believe radically different and contradictory things. Religion isn’t about proving things are true; it’s about having faith in things that can’t be proved.
Speaking of religion, yearsofexpertise suggested it was the trans folks who were the true religious fanatics, trying to foist their own religion of transness on the rest of the world.
[T]here’s been too many people that have made this concept [transness] their “religion” that they’re trying to force on the masses … to such an extent that any questioning of it will get you deemed a heretic and will get you, virtually (in its double entendre), burned at the stake, tortured, or attacked like modern-day Spanish Inquisition.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
ArnGreil thinks the LGBTQ’s have already gone too far.
The change that gay community want has already gone over the boundaries of what’s socially accepted; long ago. Most people were okay with it, if it would just be kept to their privacy. … [N]ow, they want to attack the society, by forcing children to hear their thoughts, see their censored behaviour, accept their imoral behaviour??? Yeah, that’s too far, and deserve assertive reaction.
He’s also opposed to pride parades, which
shouldn’t exist in the first place in our society; homosexual behavior should been restricted to privacy … .
Elsewhere in the discussion, ArnGreil blamed all the controversies on radical trans activists who were deliberately trying to offend, “purposely making the society resentful against trans?” (But why?)
He urged Trans people to rein in their more radical comrades “or accept the justified resentment of parents and families that see their kids threatened by this new homosexual agenda.”
AkiWookie is also not a fan of Pride Month, which he dismissed as “an entire month to be perverts in parades.”
Despite all this not-terribly-well-concealed hatred, Chendo89 insisted that
Nobody truly hates LGTBQ people, that’s a projection in your mind because secretly you think there’s something wrong with them. LGTBQ community is more accepted than ever in society as a whole. …
People objecting to trans women competing in biologically classified womens sports doesn’t mean they hate trans people or want them eliminated. Not wanting your young child to be exposed to gender theory at a very young and impressionable age is not the same as hating LGTBQ folks, it’s common sense.
But, like ArnGreil, Chendo89 believes that a small group of sex radicals are trying to pollute the debate and get everybody mad.
There’s … fringe people out there always looking for a way to provoke violence or threats … .
Most of the LGTBQ activists we see today aren’t even members of the community themselves, they’ve hijacked it for their own political aims or goals, and know they can hide under the banner of compassion and inclusion while ultimately destroying the LGTBQ community from within.
Why trans activists would want to do this isn’t exactly clear.
They’re the real danger and the ones who truly are endangering LGTBQ folks. They know pushing things to the extreme will provoke a reaction and that’s what they’re hoping for.
By deploying drag queens to read books to children? How drag queens became a symbol of trans radicalism I will never quite understand.
Zubecci also had thoughts about these evil activists.
They care about LGBT+’s as long as they can use that empathy to spite white men, their imagined white male boogeyman who wants to oppress all black people, women, and everyone who isn’t a straight white male, who really represents their father.
Thanks, Dr. Freud.
They don’t give a shit about these “oppressed” groups or any of the racism/bigotry they receive if there isn’t a white male involved who they can publicly condemn.
White men, the ultimate all-time world-champion of self-appointed victims.
Theoldcandle offered some thoughts on the fraught subject of … drag queens. After another commenter noted that Bugs Bunny sometimes dressed as a woman in old cartoon and no one seemed bothered by that, Theoldcandle drew a line between harmless and harmful drag, which seems to revolve around whether or not the drag queens are real humans or animated animals.
There’s a clear as day difference between it being done for comedic effect, or in a silly, humorous way, vs. it being done with an malicious agenda behind it.
Wait, there’s such a thing as “malicious” drag?
[A]ny time it happens in a cartoon is usually done in a way to make it obvious that it’s a lighthearted joke. … I recall many instances in Spongebob where he appeared for a split second looking girlish, but it would done as a joke and as a humorous plot device, or random nonsense. No one thinks anything of that for good reason. Same with Bugs Bunny, it’s always as a random ass nonsensical joke.
And that’s just fine, apparently.
Now, if I see a guy in drag, twerking and shit, near a bunch of kids, then that’s makes it totally different. Especially the way a lot of people in drag dress doesn’t look cartoonish or silly. It looks disgusting. So, there’s a huge difference.
I’m pretty sure the drag queens are reading, not twerking. And hell, even if they were twerking, which they aren’t, little kids don’t see that as sexual; they see it as silly. Because they’re little kids who don’t know what sex is.
Glitter-Pompeii insisted, wrongly, that
Drag is literally cross dressing burlesque. It’s designed to be sexual. That’s literally the point. That’s why you give them money.
Dude, I think you’re confusing drag queens with strippers. It’s hard enough getting a drag outfit on, or so I hear, so why would anyone want to take it off in public? Some drag queens strive for “realness” but others — like the ones reading stories in libraries — play it for laughs.
Moving on from drag queens, MojoGolf left this perplexing comment;
A big issue that the world faces at this moment in time is government tyranny being advanced through empathy and even a step past that; pressure to conform so not to be viewed as a racist, bigot, or basically a plague of society.
Wait, yet another reference to “empathy” as a bad thing? Are you guys all reading Ayn Rand on the side?
We are now seeing schools propagandizing children by forcefully playing the role of parents, freedoms being diminished for security, and the social justice mindset becoming their religion. All of these are historical signs of a growing tyrannical movement that has gained too much traction; something that JP and many of the phycologists that inspire him have spoken about extensively.
I would like to hear more about these “phycologists.”
The trans issues that you brought up have been highjacked and bolstered as part of that political SJW ideology that is being force fed by tyrants in order to further conformity, powers, and division.
“Force fed by tyrants,” really? By having to refer to trans people as “they” once in a while.
We’re on the cusp of a real — not semantic — tyranny at the hands of a radicalized religious right, aided and abetted by a former president who literally tried to coup himself into dictator for life, and you guys are complaining about the alleged tyranny of the word “they.”
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Do any of you remember high school based “she-male” pageants in the 70s? I remember attending several shows in the early 70s — in a pretty large city in a conservative southern state — where seven or eight high-school boys competed for a pageant crown. And these were not marginalized kids, or even dedicated theater nerds — these were the jocks, the football players, the Big Men On Campus, the coolest of the “cool” kids.
It didn’t seem to be such a big, offensive deal at the time. Although, in keeping with the “comedic” style previously described, a lot of it was pretty stereotypical mockery of women (“sexy” nurses, waterballoons in oversized bras, aping a butt-swinging inability to walk in heels) and sophomoric (women portrayed as stupid or gold diggers, a lot of Marilyn wigs and blonde jokes). The winner one year was actually a junior dancer with the city ballet, an enormously popular guy. He came jeté-ing in, viewed from behind, dancing to the tune “I Should Have Danced All Night.” And when he turned around, wearing a typical full-length ballet leotard, he was wearing a fake 9-month belly. Har har har.
I guess this was not the “malicious” drag feared by conservatives, and thus, worthy of outrage and suppression. And it was all the Good Ol’ Boys, the football players, yukking it up on stage. But it’s an odd memory that I haven’t thought of in decades. I just can’t get my head around how we got from socially-acceptable, lighthearted “comedic” drag to death threats and disenfranchisement for Drag Queen Story Hour in such a sadly short time.
If given a choice between a drag queen and a clown, I bet most kids would prefer the drag queen. Clowns are creepy, drag queens are fun.
@epitome: I’ve been forcing my view of reality on the public since I was 5! I reject this notion that I should be walking into walls just because I was born myopic! And now, I also have close-up problems; I was hoping the aging process would even my eyeballs out, but no such luck.
@Our trans commenters: I love you. Keep being the gender you are, not the one the patriarchy chose for you. Big hugs. (Or not, as you prefer)
My favorite phycologist iph Phteven.
@Lumipuna
Making books seem cool. Making reading seem cool. Getting the kids attached to books and libraries as good things early makes them much more likely to be successful later in both school and in life in general.
But it’s not, really. It’s about adding something silly and fun to reading books so you can get kids excited about reading books so kids actually read books.
No one is actually teaching gender – non-conformist or otherwise – at Drag Queen Story Hours.
Because there’s a long tradition in both Leather and Drag communities of doing volunteer service. Because there are more dedicated drag queens than dedicated drag kinds. And some of the drag queens volunteered.
If you wanted to start a “lakeside story & splash time hour” where you read books to kids by a lake while someone was waterskiing behind you and every once in a while they swooped really close to shore to make a big splash and then you went to your librarian and you said, “Kids like to play near the water and splash each other & stuff, but I want to encourage kids to read, too. Would you mind letting me advertise my reading & splashing event through the library events calendar?” I bet the librarians would be happy to collaborate with you. The kids would love it if you ham it up when you “forgot” or “didn’t notice” that the water-skier was approaching and didn’t get out of the way in time and got all wet, even though the kids who were facing the lake could see the boat and skier coming in behind you the whole time, and they’re pointing and yelling, “watch out!” because the water skier splashed the shore before and they know what’s coming, and then you totally end up soaked OH GODS THE KIDS WOULD LAUGH SO HARD and they would want to go back all summer because those book reading events sure are fun and the local community would treat you like a superhero and you’d be doing something good.
It’s just that. Only with drag queens hamming it up for the children without a waterskier behind them. Because drag queens like volunteer service and cute kids and books.
@Crip Dyke
The books would get wet though!
Then again, there are many reasons why children need waterproof books
@GSS ex-noob
If given a choice between a drag queen and a clown, I bet most kids would prefer the drag queen. Clowns are creepy, drag queens are fun.
For whatever it might be worth, a panel on scientific method I attended some years ago at Inconjunction (a science-fiction convention in Indianapolis) addressed the conventional wisdom that Clowns Are Creepy (It Is Known!) A questionnaire submitted to the audience, with pop-cultural examples, established a generational point of demarcation: boomers and older had not grown up with that assumption. The type-specimens we remembered were the likes of Bozo and Ronald MacDonald; I personally remember having drawn a lot of human and animal clowns as a little kid because the subject lent itself to bright exuberant color schemes. (This was even truer for my parents’ generation: their retirement hometown was the site of an amateur clown school, resulting in a fair number of senior clown hobbyists who’d entertain at social events, nursing homes, and hospitals.) The Joker was around, certainly, but he was an evil clown rather than an Evil Clown, if the distinction is clear.
1979 was to coulrophobia what 1975 was to galeophobia: that was the year that John Wayne Gary’s crimes came to light, and that’s what seems to have anchored the Evil Clown trope on the cultural map (furthered by Gary’s crude and unsettling artwork, memorably referenced in the live-action Street Fighter movie.) It was after that that we began seeing the Pennywises and Juggalos and the periodic Marauding Clown Gang urban legends.)
@ full metal ox
Well, Ronald McDonald was a lot more cuddly back then.
I remember being read to by a “princess” in an airport when I was a little girl. A bunch of flights got delayed because of snow. There were a lot of other kids there with their family and we ended up in like a gift shop section sat on the floor where this woman in a full princess gown and a tira read to us stories that the shop was selling. The air port staff was trying to make it go as smoothly as possible for all the customers. Turns out that woman was just like a rando person that as got stuck. But she had the dress she was taking with her to a cosplay convention. So she just slipped into the bathroom. Put on the dress and make up and all that, then entertained kids for a few hours.
My point being is that 5 year olds would probably just assume a drag queen is a princess. They probably won’t even be able to tell they aren’t cis. Since you know, little kids don’t care about that shit.
Here’s the Drag Queen Storytime video I was trying to find earlier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye_DsH3En70
The kids are adorable and are having a great time, because the drag queen is keeping the focus on the kids. As it should be.
@Victorious Parasol
Thanks for posting the link!
I see Drag Queens reading books to children in libraries as entertainment first. Libraries are often looking for fun children’s programs and people to do them. My local public library (I am in Canada) offers Drag Queen story times in the summer.
Drag Queens are primarily performers. People who are performers tend to be looking for opportunities to perform. It’s so amazing
I don’t think the presence of drag queens doing story time for children in libraries is ENTIRELY divorced from trans rights…but it’s not indoctrination or abuse (eyeroll). Not all drag queens identify as transgendered or trans anything. I think that mostly it does not hurt children to be exposed to different types of people who are fun, entertaining, and show them that people can look different and still be kind, funny, and fun. It helps, in general, to dispel prejudice. A child who goes to drag queen story times may remember this when they are older and be more accepting of friends and others who turn out to not fit heteronormative stereotypes.
I reject utterly the panic that exposing children to drag results in them being gay, transgender or anything else. Children know what they like. Some of them will find the Drag hilarious and utterly reject any opportunity to dress in a gender non-conforming way. Others will be more curious about experimenting.
@KatInBoots
As far as I can tell, the only rights question that applies to drag queen storytime is, “Are drag queens allowed to exist in the way that other performers are allowed to exist?”
We already have laws and mores in place governing what is appropriate for entertainment for certain ages. Unless a drag queen violates those laws – I’m thinking things like indecent exposure or harming a minor – then they should be judged the same as any cosplayer. Do they keep the children/audience engaged and entertained?
Children can be a tough crowd. Ask any substitute teacher.
Ah, yes. That push for conformity by… *checks notes* deviating from the norm in any number of different ways in a way that angers the “there’s only two genders” crowd.
@ Vicky P
“Might as well be talking to f***ing geese”
@FMOx: the Mr. and I are both definitely Boomers (60+), and we both think clowns are creepy. My mom had a clown painting that creeped me out in single digits in the 60’s.
Though it wasn’t as widespread in the culture, you’re right.
I had an acquaintance for a while who was a volunteer clown, and a very nice man, not a pervert or cannibal, but I never went to see him in full rig because I liked him and I didn’t want the image of his clown self to interfere with the real man I worked with.
@Elaine: What a lovely story! I know a ton of cosplayers, and I bet they would have done the same.
@Crip Dyke: I love the idea of Story and Splash Time! Except about the books getting wet. I’d go to that just to watch the kids giggle.
I have an acquaintance who was big in the leather community for a while, and the group he belonged to REQUIRED some kind of public service/charity work.
David, why aren’t you still very rightly calling Jordan the horrible woman-hating,crackpot and huge weirdo you did a few years ago?
Probably because the only notable thing that Jorpy has done lately is cry because Olivia Wilde was mean to him