Men’s Rights activists have to stretch a bit to find new things to get mad about. Right now Men’s Rights Redditors are working themselves into a tizzy because a city in Colorado made it legal for women and girls to go topless.
In 2019.
You see, back in those halcyon days before COVID, the city of Fort Collins, Colorado decided that it wasn’t worth the time or the money to defend a city ordinance forbidding women from exposing their boobs in public.
Now, more than two years later some doofus on the Men’s Rights subreddit named Zogins, who only just heard the news, is warning his fellow MRAs that
Radical feminism is a disease, a rot. A group of women fought for the ‘right’ to be topless like men. So now girls aged 11 and over have the ‘right’ to walk about topless.
I can’t even imagine the number of criminal charges against men for being pedophiles and pervs in the near future.
Zogins found the story on a clickbaity trash site that basically plagiarized an NBC News article on the subject from September 2019 and treated it like it was new news in 2022. He never bothered to track the story to its source. Had he bothered to google “Fort Collins Topless” he would have discovered that the city wasn’t overrun with topless women and girls, and that men were not being arrested en masse (or even en one) for looking at them.
Nonetheless, Zogins has convinced a good number of his fellow MRAs that this is somehow a live issue and a sign of invidious discrimination against men. Indeed, his post has 420 upvotes, making it the top (non-stickied) post in the subreddit right now. Its also inspired nearly 300 comments. MRAs love to get worked up about entirely hypothetical problems.
True, quite a few commenters brush off the “news,” saying that they’re not worried about a tsunami of toplessness. Or that they would welcome something like that. “Looks like I’m moving to Colorado,” one commenter writes.
One big worry of the commenters is the possibility of seeing an ugly woman’s possibly ugly boobs.
“The ones who are desperate enough to go topless are not the kind of women us men would want to see go topless,” writesThrowAway640KB. “I mean, some guys are thirsty enough that anything goes, even decades older or hideously ugly. But still.”
Modsarebrainstems adds,
The day that became legal, my apartment caretaker managed to make the front page news in Ottawa. … The caretaker decided to vacuum the halls topless. Imagine Barbie on fat steroids, coked up and an extra 30 years.
Others detail their plans to thwart the hypothetical topless menace.
Gamernator-GX writes
A bunch of middle-aged, fat, ugly, butch-haircut feminists going topless isn’t my idea of eye candy. I’d look away quickly and say, “Lady, put your guns away. This is California. Open carry is not legal.” If they’re gonna play that entitled liberal game, I will too, by using their own rules against them. I’ll complain like a Karen and say i was offended, sexually harassed, and since nudity was exposed to my children, she’s a syxual pridator. I’d smile as she’s handcuffed and put in the paddy wagon. Then at court, I’ll cry like a 5 year old girl and say, “Then she looked at me, and I feared she was gonna rape me! I escaped with my life! I’ll never get over this trauma!” Since feminists want to be men (while hating men at the same time makes it so much funnier), she’s not given the womans sentence for sexual harrassment of 4 months, she given the men’s sentence of 40 years. Having enough women like her in prison is a guarantee that our nation’s worst offenders will never die in a flood.
These guys sure have vivid imaginations.
Zogins, the OP, reports that he actually has tried to get topless women arrested before. “In my country,” he notes,
[w]omen are not allowed to be topless even on a beach.
Many women ignore this rule and they sunbathe and swim topless. The police do nothing. …
I was on a beach with a young relative and two women sat down next to us and took off their tops. I felt a little uncomfortable because I was with a young boy and we both did not know where to look. I decided to try an experiment. I phoned the police hotline for reporting crimes and told the female police officer who replied of the two women who were breaking the law next to me. I gave her the name of the beach and directions. She started trying to be funny “It’s a very hot day today. I think they are feeling hot.” But I asked her what she was going to do seeing that the law was being broken right next to me. She told me that she would send a police car. None came.
Poor baby.
Still others work themselves into a lather over a hypothetical epidemic of women grabbing men”s chests. “They do anything that they want without repercussions or correction,” complains stupuff.
Next time a woman touches your chest or anything you didn’t give permission for, call them out. Make them feel scummy for taking license with your body because you’re a man.
Either we all follow the rules or no one does.
Somehow I doubt that women are regularly grabbing this guy’s chest. Or is there really an epidemic of chest-groping going on that I’m not aware of?
A few commenters think this whole thread is as dumb as I think it is.
“This is honestly one of the stupidest posts ive ever seen on here,” complains Skydiver860, “and is an example of posts on here that give people the wrong idea and think we are the bad people.”
Skydiver860, I certainly appreciate you calling out this post. But there are posts as dumb as this up pretty much every day on the Men’s Rights subreddit. If you don’t believe me, just watch.
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@Seth S amd Viscaria
Boobs are SEX organs, first and foremost. The purpose of the breast is to attract men who want for their seed to be well fed and taken care of/ A woman with small breasts is unlikely to be able to provide decent nourishment for her husband’s children. In that they are sex organs, they are comparable to cocks – if I am unable to display my pissworm proudly in public, then tits should be covered up, lock stock and barrel.
Women will work in service jobs naked, or quite nearly, in order to get higher tips from male customers. Men are visual creatures, and women will exploit their bioligcal weaknesses for dough, much of which I imagine will be spent on something frivolous. They will insert their boobs into drink so that men will enjoy drinking the beverage more, and will thus be more likely to tip or buy another round. I can just imagine them stirring cocktails with their tits and charging extra to some lonely dickthinker who desperate to experience any contact with a woman, even vicariously through the stirring of drink with mammary.
Who wants to tell Squack that women can have sex (and orgasms!) even if they’ve undergone a double mastectomy? It’s not that breasts can’t be erogenous zones – it’s that they have a purpose besides sexual pleasure.
@Victorious Parasol
They are sex organs in that they attract men – whether or not they are erogenous zones is actually besides the point.
@Squack
Dude, I hate to break it to you, but not all men are into breasts.
From an evolutionary standpoint, breasts were used for the feeding of offspring first. If we were to follow your silly line of pseudo-thought, we’d have to agree that hair, buttocks, legs, and vocal cords are sex organs because these are all characteristics that attract men. And we don’t. “Sexual organs” means “reproductive system” because that’s sex’s primary purpose.
It has been legal for women to be topless in public in Ontario for something like 25 years. And yet society here remains strangely uncollapsed. Almost as if it is not a big deal.
Hats off to these imaginary women with the Teflon titties, stiff enough to stir drinks, numb enough to place directly into hot or cold liquid.
@Squack
Your sexual fantasies about boobs in coffee do not represent reality.
I am reasonably sure that batista sticking any part of their bodies into a customer’s food or drink is a health code violation.
@Viscaria
Once it becomes totally noramlized for women to walk around in public with their boobs hanging out, you can bet that more of them will be opting for some kind of boob-enhancement scheme. There’s no telling what kind of modifications to their tits these women might make, some of which might render them completely impervious to certain hot or cold sensations. Doctors will willingly go along with these shenanigans because they also want to see boobs, people will sell boob enhancers on the black market. even.
@Squack
Also, there are men and women and non-binary people that are attracted to muscular men’s biceps. Or legs. Should these men be forced to cover themselves up?
Victorious: These same dudes go ballistic when women breastfeed their infants.
@Quacks
1) Haven’t you ever had a job? They have dress codes.
2) Breast size and the amount of milk produced don’t have much to do with each other, and larger breasts can cause nursing difficulties.
3) Breasts are not universally seen as sexy. You’re not old enough to remember when National Geographic regularly printed photos of topless indigenous women. Christian missionaries spent a lot of time trying to get women in non-western societies to cover up. In those societies, breasts were for babies and the western male obsession with them was seen as laughable and childish.
4) There are still places where women can go topless–New York City! Sweden! Somehow society has not fallen apart in those places.
5) Many conventionally attractive women already use their looks to their advantage, including for getting out of speeding tickets. if men fall for it, it’s on them. Also, no sign of society falling apart.
(My mom got out of a lot of tickets that she deserved because she’s a little old lady. I guess we should have disguised her as a younger woman.)
@Makroth
There are standards, some people think that butts and thighs are sexy, and we DO expect people to cover those up. Arms we can live with, largely because only women are attracted to them, so one needn’t worry about another man trying to take a woman’s husband just because his arms are sexy. But a woman flashing her fakes will get lots of attention from married men and also men that aren’t her husband, resulting in violence and broken marriages. I, personally, would never show arms because I believe in a duty to be modest.
@Allandrel
That’s just because boobs haven’t been involved yet.
@ squack
If you were in the US though it would be your constitutional right to bare arms.
Squack. My boy.
Can you see why you get “citation needed” responses based off what you just said? You’re not describing some well-accepted public statement that one would just need to confirm with a periodical entry or something. You are making hard and fast statements about the motives of millions, really billions, of people. For that kind of extraordinary claim, even very ordinary evidence would be nice, thank you. But instead here comes our new Cliff Clavin, our new street preacher, ranting about doomsday scenarios based on jack and shit!
So, grooming. Why would having the ability to show boobs legally help someone with grooming any more than illegally, Squack? You do realize that culture and society will still not be cool with adult women trying to hit on or seduce or manipulate kids, right? I suspect you may not have ever been in an environment where nudity is common. Trust me, it gets
really, really non-sexy very quickly.
Your misogyny is noted, but it’s hilarious given the statistics. https://theconversation.com/men-are-more-likely-to-commit-violent-crimes-why-is-this-so-and-how-do-we-change-it-157331 . This is one of the most broadly accepted conclusions of criminology. It’s men who commit crimes. Including sex crimes. Do you have any evidence that women would, if merely allowed to show their breasts (and by the way how wonderful that you are so willing to be so crude yourself that you use the phrase “gazongas”), suddenly begin grooming at rates never before seen? Can you even explain the logic that would lead you to think that’s even a probability? Nope!
But hey, remember how much you pretended to care about personal freedom when it came to government wanting to give you a little jab so other people don’t die? Now you don’t give a crap about it! Women, and apparently only women, should have their liberties curtailed because of the suspicion that they may have a slight increase in the rate of grooming! By that fucking non-reasoning, I should just say that we have every reason t think that unvaccinated people without masks will just go ahead and deliberately cough on and defecate on every surface possible, and so we better have forced vaccination!
Oddly, this occurs exactly when we are discussing a right that has been framed as for women only. I know that the cooties phase can take awhile to get out of, but you really will feel a lot better when you let go of this misogyny.
And speeding tickets? Dude, women can already try to seduce cops. If you’re trying to manipulate an officer, nudity laws aren’t really that big of a barrier. It’s adorable that you think that a lot of women need to actually show you the whole breast to manipulate someone who can be manipulated that way. I don’t like psychoanalyzing people who disagree with me, but this just comes off like you’re not very sexually experienced, my man.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/appearance-bias-and-crime/do-attractive-women-get-away-with-traffic-violations-an-observational-study-of-police-responses-to-traffic-stops/D80269E976D4FF051A6FAD449C8ED2A7#:~:text=The%20attractiveness%20of%20women%20seems,of%20getting%20a%20traffic%20citation. In any case, we put this to the test! “The attractiveness of women seems largely irrelevant to the police officer’s decision to issue a citation. In contrast, it is the attractiveness of the men that significantly reduced the likelihood of getting a traffic citation”. Ooops! Have any evidence to contradict that?
Then you conflate flashing with nudity. Flashing is, by definition, briefly sexually displaying or sexually displaying after having hidden it in order to have an effect. You being a harassing douchenozzle is not going to be legal no matter what. But, yes, I actually think there’s an argument to be made that you do indeed get to be nude. There are sanitation issues and I think that communities could disagree on this topic, but, well, if you’ve ever been to your average public beach (especially in a college area or a spring break area), you will see how much people can already get away with, legally or quasi-legally. And society has not fallen apart.
Of course, the existence of long-standing nude beaches and nudist communities where these harms have not come to pass need not trouble you. Your opinions are way better than facts!
And the idea that boobs are sex organs is… dude. There is actually no correlation between size of breast and amount of milk produced. https://www.medela.us/breastfeeding/articles/does-breast-size-affect-milk-production#:~:text=The%20short%20answer%20is%20no,a%20mom%20with%20large%20breasts. . Yes, it’s likely that there’s some genetic signal for men to be attracted to breasts (though I wonder if you know that some men prefer smaller breasts – GASP!), but that doesn’t make them sexual organs any more than lips or hips or feet or all sorts of things that can attract men are. But good to know that you think that what defines the utility of female organs isn’t their own intent, or biology but what men prefer!
I really don’t like harping on your obvious lack of experience, but you’re saying things, loudly and publicly, that a high school sex ed class could cure you of. If you’re not just being a troll or wanting to pick on big meanie feminists and are actually concerned about public nudity, your concerns are being based in fraudulent misinformation. Do you like that about yourself? Do you like that you are easily incensed into freaking out over non-issues? Do you really think the world is so well off that your attention here isn’t distracting you from much more important, pressing topics for your neighbors?
You then go on to discuss how women already use sexuality to get tips. Putting aside that male servers also use it to get tips (I know, I’ve smiled at people to get tips too), you’ve… proven that this already happens and society is just fine. You just torpedoed your argument. But logical consistency isn’t your strong suit.
You conclude by just assuming that women will just get all sorts of modifications for public nudity. Why? For one thing, you yourself seem to know that women can already, if they are so inclined, can already manipulate people (men and women alike, actually) by all sorts of means to make themselves more attractive. Why would you ever assume that they would start increasing the amount they are doing so beyond the baseline now? Have you looked at the number of breast surgeries in societies that have more restrictive clothing rules as a baseline? Did you control for those societies being more sexually repressive? I know that sex is icky and scary, but maybe you should start accepting it.
So, what are you assuming?
Well…
1) Women are selfish, and will just try to take advantage of a system, or at least enough will to make it be a serious concern
2) Men are childish little imps and helpless boys who can’t adapt to that if it occurs
3) Everyone will just immediately take advantage of being clothes-free if they legally can, such that you are assuming that literally no one just likes wearing clothes because they like how they look or they have a personal sense of modesty or out of concerns over not catching cold
4) All of this has been kept from exploding into being a SUPER SERIAL SOCIAL PROBLEM, YOU GUYS by virtue of the laws that have never stopped Girls Gone Wild videos
Like, dude, you can get free porn pretty much everywhere. On your phone. This isn’t 1920.
I’ve been framing your ideas charitably, but let me be clear about something, Squack. You’re an asshole. And that’s because you are talking to a group of people that includes women and telling them their motivations, their likely behavior, etc. You could just ask. You may learn that a lot of women who have large breasts actually deeply resent the attention. You constantly frame the topic in terms of the apparently innocent men (despite the evidence of who actually commits crime) who will be seduced by feminine wiles, which really says a lot about you and not a lot about reality, but never how women may be affected.
Which leads us to the core point here. The type of people who want us to have a more nudist society also want to lead cultural changes to make us less weird, exploitative and gross sexually.
You can think that’s utopian or impossible. But you know how you’d figure it out? Try.
Or you can act like every conservative throughout history who was just convinced that THIS TIME the scourge of the naked ankle would destroy society, in advance of some of the freest, most prosperous times in history! You can embrace your inner fascist and be afraid of people expressing themselves and who they are, because, well, bitches be bad, right?
Grow up, kid.
Yes. They are sex organs in exactly the same sense and exactly to the same extent as collarbones, feet, wrists, eyes, thighs, shoulders and brains.
What a useful definition of “sex organ” you have there, Squack!
ETA: and, of course, I’m way late to the party and everyone has already made this point, but I’ll leave it up because mocking Squack’s stupidity amuses me.
Dipshit is way too stupid and gullible to care about how easy he is to manipulate; he’s too busy getting off on being owned by the libs…sorry, “owning” the libs.
Well, that and breasts, apparently.
Tangential: I’ve heard the argument that we shouldn’t allow general nudity, not because it would cause any real social problems, but because there are people who want a degree of mystery around the human body, and nudity should be a rare and special thing. While it’s not inherently sexual, they say, it somehow feels more “right” for it to be socially sexualized. I’m really not sure how to respond to that.
@Crip: To be fair, hopefully the fact that a lot of people take him to task for the same points should help him learn. Or else it’ll make him feel dogpiled upon and then he’ll bounce after the flounce!
I have damn well overtipped a waiter who wasn’t a perfect server, but holy cow was he gorgeous and flirty. What my grandma would have called “a Latin lover type”.
And nudity is boring when it’s normalized. Most people come in one of two basic models, with the standard equipment (other configurations are available), and unless people start growing new fleshy protuberances, there’s nothing new to be seen.
I used to hang out occasionally at a naturist resort. Extremely large women playing water volleyball, scrawny men on the tennis court, everyone wearing nothing but flip flops and sunscreen. No one cared. No one did anything untoward in public — there was less touching and sexual talk than you get in fully clothed society. If you wanted to keep your clothes on, that was okay, except you couldn’t use the pool or hot tub. The teenagers tended to be fully dressed and played video games sullenly indoors. Because teenagers. The only person who got mocked (gently, behind her back) was the woman with the terrible implants. No one was attracted to those. Clothes did go on after sundown, and of course the kitchen staff covered up because no one’s gonna fry and grill naked.
It was one of the safest places for children ever. They ran around with no fear, getting an all-over tan and absolutely NO ONE but their parents ever touched them, and no one talked to them without their parents’ permission. But the kids were watched over by everyone. They were never out of sight of a whole lot of related and unrelated people who would have given a beat down to anyone who looked at them funny. And the kids were so well-behaved, with “please, thank you, excuse me, sorry” and no whining. They started as babies in nothing but diapers, became kids in nothing, became teens in clothes and heavy sighs, then adults in nothing again.
Pervs who couldn’t control their drooling and ogling were ejected immediately, and their names, photos, and driver’s license information posted for all to see. Even marginal bad behavior towards anyone was grounds for instantly being escorted out by the large men with attitude and training and big sticks. I was never hit on once, even though I have been hit on very skeevily in gas stations, FFS.
There were some very stylish hats, sandals, and sunglasses worn, some very nice umbrellas for shade or rain, and every possible color and pattern of towels.
It was so relaxing.
(I once met someone out in the world that I’d only seen there, and we had to stare at each other and think hard before we realized why we looked familiar to each other! We’d spent hours in close proximity and eaten dinner together, but… clothed? Awkward.)
Dude. Read this fucking site. Lots of people are deeply worried about what their silly women will do to ride the Chad cock carousel if they are given an inch. On the one hand, I’m glad that you missed a chance to repeat that crap; on the other hand, you doing so lets you adopt the intellectually convenient stance for you that we shouldn’t care what women find sexually attractive when deciding what should be allowed in public, which definitionally means that you are demanding sexism in the design of the law, by framing women entirely out of the situation. The existence of the screeching misogynists proves that lots of people actually are worried about your scenario, and yet don’t demand that men be restricted for it. Only women. Hey! That’s yet another one of those conservative hypocrisies that you pretend don’t exist!
But, okay, you’re arguing that it’s a matter of degrees. So…
[citation needed]
Prove that people are so much more attracted to breasts than they are to arms, or abs, or anything else that men can legally show off, that it will cause the adverse effects you describe, or even has a substantial probability to do so. You yourself clearly seem to think that there’s a modesty issue, but, you know, not enough of one to police men’s bodies. How very, very non-suspicious that you somehow never seem to come up with a reasont o inconvenience men but come up with lots of reasons for the big government to control women’s bodies, presentations, and behavior.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8565586/#:~:text=Based%20upon%20the%20data%20collected,been%20done%20for%20cosmetic%20reasons . Only 8.08 per 1000 women have breast implants, even in a society where they can legally go out with a bra as long as nipples aren’t showing. Only 60% of those are cosmetic. And many of those cosmetic adjustments aren’t going to be large size increases but rather small changes to size or shape. So not only are you demonstrably ignorant about fake breasts (chalk something else up to your lack of knowledge), but you are trying to argue that we’ll see something like a fucking tenfold increase when women can go out in public nude. Which also, of course, assumes that women primarily get adjustments to their body exclusively to attract men, not just to feel good about themselves or to please one particular partner or to please women or because it matches some look they need for professional reasons. Because you think women are sluts. Can you just say it? It’ll feel good, Squack! It’ll feel good to get it off your chest!
Just come out and ask for women to wear a burqa already, dude.
Annnnnnnd I am now thinking you’re a straight up troll or Poe.
Whoever is behind the computer screen, there, bud? Have you… have you worked a food service job, ever?
Since it bothers you… [citation needed]
@Gaebolga: Oh, I can see that he’s a dipshit. That doesn’t make him not a person. If he is actually (as it really seems like he is) a teenager, there may very well come a time two, three, five, ten years from now where he reflects on his general behavior and realizes what an ignorant douche he was. I think that process is easier, and my own humanity better protected, if I at least try to grease the skids toward that result.
And Squack… GSS is just another point of data for you to look at. You can (hypocritically) dismiss it as anecdotal data. But you’re modeling the world in your head, and people who have more experience than you are telling you that you’re just not right about that model. That you’re being silly. You have a choice. You can be humble enough to admit that you ran your mouth. It’s okay to be unintentionally ignorant. We all have some dumb ideas that we didn’t interrogate. What’s not okay is to be arrogant, so arrogant that we protect those dumb ideas instead of just admitting we got something wrong and moved on. This isn’t a hill worth dying on. And if you actually have any spirit of freedom within you, you’ll feel a lot better when you start taking the reflexive stance that liberty is generally pretty good and we should need a lot of evidence to constrain it.
@ gss ex-noob
Well, who doesn’t enjoy conjugating?
amō
amās
amat
amāmus
amātis
amant
@Quack:
Well, dang. It looks like my clever scheme to bury you for days in an avalanche of browser tabs has failed. 🙂
Evopsych twaddle.
And then badly written fetish porn. I think there are websites for publishing that sort of thing, and that WHTM isn’t one of them.
@SpecialFFrog:
Not for lack of trying on Doug Ford’s part, to be sure.
Leaving aside the unpleasant sensations sticking a naked boob into hot and cold drinks several times a day would produce, how exactly would stirring drinks with a naked breast work? I tried to work out the logistics of that in my mind, and the only way to make it possible is if the drink ingredients are placed in a shallow bowl set on a waist-high table where the server can bend over it and mover her torso in a circle for a few minutes to mix the drink before poring the liquid into the actual drinking glass. Because trying this with a breast in a regular glass will only create a vacuum seal since breasts are much wider than they’re long, and can’t reach the e bottom and r the glass under the best of circumstances. The approximately 10” stirring spoon normally used to mix drinks with are much faster to use than breast, and do the job far better anyway.