MRA post of the day: “There’s no such thing as tOXic masculinity you dumb c___.”

I only ever heard the Windex and crayon jokes about Marines too. Never the band thing. All the military branches have bands. But agreed that the military is full of toxic masculinity, which is terrible for both women and men.

MRAs don’t grasp the basic idea, and even when they do, they don’t see how much it hurts men — self-hate, lashing out, suicide, substance abuse, shooting up theaters…

@Alan Robertshawsays:

[quote]@ acid kitrana

Whilst I would generally agree with your definition of toxic masculinity; or at least accept your examples as representative of the phenomenon, I think there’s a problem with your definition of toxic femininity.[quote]

I’m curious, so please continue.

[quote]Basically, the masculinity examples do tally with traditional views on what it means to be a man. Overtly competitive, physically strong, ability to suppress emotions etc.[quote]

Yes. I also included other things, but please continue.

[quote]But the examples you give for toxic femininity don’t correspond with how society generally views feminine stereotypes. Quite the opposite. If there is a cliched view of what it is to be feminine then the examples you give are quite contrary to that.[quote]

I added as what I see as toxic behavior that belongs to one group more than the other. It does not necessarily mean that it’s expected. For example, it’s illegal to gay bash in the US, but many people (moreso men, but some women as well) will gay bash mainly men (with some women also gay bashed, of course). That is a toxic behavior belonging to men moreso than women (though I’ve noticed that women tend to be more biphobic, while men tend to be more homophobic, and men are only somewhat more likely to be transphobic than women, with high rates among both). It does not necessarily describe what society thinks/wants in a group, though that is part of the description.

[quote]For example, a woman using violence against a man, or indeed anybody, would probably be seen as deviant, rather than conforming to an ideal.

Women are expected to be non violent, and caring, and supportive.

The examples you give are very much inconsistent with that.[quote]

While what you give is indeed true, my point was that women can rather get away with hitting a man (and sometimes a woman, as well). It becomes a toxic behavior for women who do this, as they constantly get away with it, feeding into them that they’re allowed to, creating a cycle where they continuously abuse.

It’s like one partnership I had (I will give another example below) – both me and my boyfriend at the time (I have a different one now) understood each other, because we were both abused by our families, so we stayed together. He was abused by his mother, me just mainly by my family but especially by one person I shall not mention. Well, we got into a fight several times, with each of us being about an equal amount of instigators/initiators. If we had been near each other at the time, we probably would have ended up violent, with me probably bearing the brunt of injury since he could bench press nearly 7 of me (I’m only about 100 pounds or so). After each fight, we would calm down, and just be normal again. We would stay. And that was because we thought it was ok – it would go away, we would be friends again, and plus we understood each other – so we thought it was ok. We were feeding into our cycle. Causing it to keep on happening.

The second thing is that, when I was about 13 or 14, around the early beginnings of my transition, I was on a website, where you could go live on a camera. On that site, I ended up dating 3 adult men, aged around 30, including one whom sent me a p*nis pic, because I didn’t know it was wrong. I thought it was ok, so I kept doing it. I fed into the cycle because I thought that it was ok. (Also, I remembered this like a week ago, and I felt d*mb remembering that.)

By allowing them to do something, you feed into the cycle, causing a toxic behavior to emerge. Thus, toxic femininity adds on.

[quote]I should perhaps add that ‘toxic femininity’ is a term used by womanist writers. There it describes what we might now call ‘Karen’ behaviour.[quote]

I wouldn’t necessarily call Karen behavior toxic femininity, since there are also male Karens, though they tend to be more female than male. Womanist is black feminists, right? Or am I being wrong? And if so, good to know a feminist group that does indeed use the term.

[quote]It’s that weaponisation of supposed female vulnerability.[quote]

Yes, that is also a part of toxic femininity. I should have added that.

[quote]And you can find examples of that from Emmet Till to that poor chap who was just bird watching in the park.[quote]

Ok.

[quote]And apologies if I’m misinterpreting your stance; but I don’t think that’s what you were suggesting.[quote]

Yeah, I think the problem was that I miscommunicated; I should have been clearer to as what I meant specifically.

@GSS ex-noobsays:

[quote]@Alan: Karen-ing is more tied up with White privilege than even toxic masculinity is. Plenty of toxic PoC men, but they aren’t calling the cops on birdwatchers.[quote]

What about toxic POC women?

Also, we were talking about toxic femininity with that, not toxic masculinity.

[quote]The White women of a certain age I know are really careful not to give the appearance of being a Karen. Last time I asked for a manager, it was because I’d been standing in a line to get a much-needed medicine, and they’d told me “20 minutes” 40 minutes before, when they said “20 minutes” again. Being as it was for pain, and I was standing outside on concrete at sundown in winter, I *really* felt I needed to get my meds and go home to collapse on the couch. (Said manager was also a White woman, so I didn’t feel I was oppressing anyone. And I thanked her profusely.)[quote]

It’s not a good idea to be a Karen, anyway. Nobody likes you.

[quote]Toxic femininity, if it exists, is usually rooted in the general patriarchal-ness of society; women are encouraged to be that way because they sometimes have no other recourse in a male-dominated society. They’ve often been programmed into it.[quote]

“Women being toxic? PATRIARCHY!”

[quote][1]It kills far fewer people, [2]though that’s no comfort to those who’ve suffered from it, like Emmett Till’s family. [3]Incel women are much less likely to start shooting up a public place.[quote]

1. Tell that to Kill a Mockingbird. Tell that to literally all the victims of female murderers. Tell that to girls driven to s*icide because of toxic girls. Tell that to boys driven to s*icide because of toxic girls. Tell that to the victims of homophobic hate crimes done by women (such as in Russia or the US). Tell that to anyone who’s suffered and at the hands of a toxic woman, and died because of it. Tell that to Roberto, a trans man who was physically and psychologically abused for a year by 2 women before being killed by them. Tell that to the bisexual men and women hurt by toxic women, and died because of it. Tell that to the gay men and lesbians hurt by toxic women, and died because of it. Tell that to the trans men and women hurt by toxic women, and died because of it. https://www.wonderslist.com/10-most-cruel-wives/. Tell that to anyone who has died as a result of a toxic woman.

2. You’re right, it’s certainly no comfort.

3. Most male incels don’t shoot up a place, either. Also, according to https://mass-shootings.info/index.php, in 2019, 3% (6) mass shooters were female, as were 2% (3) in 2020, and 3% (9) in 2021. While female mass shooters are rarer than male mass shooters (while unknown being 0% in 2019, 1% in 2020, and 2% in 2022), they still exist.

@.45says:

[quote]@ Acid Kritana

You don’t believe in toxic masculinity, as you give a great definition of same? Seriously? You can identify these guys from the bumper stickers on their trucks. Manly man types who brag about what animals they’ve shot, how many fights they’ve been in, the women they’ve banged, etc, etc. Best not to be too rude to them, even though they are assholes to everyone else, or you end up in a fight.[quote]

I was asked to give a definition of what it would be if I did believe in it, and I did give a definition. Also, that definition is the only way I’ll believe it, with some minor changes possibly added or taken away.

@epitome of incomprehensibilitysays:

[quote]@Alan Robertshaw – Yes, I agree about women being expected to be “non violent, and caring, and supportive” but in my experience this can also be used as an excuse to get away with violent behaviour. Because it’s less expected.[quote]

This is true.

[quote]@Acid Kritana – But it’s still gender stereotypes that are the problem, aren’t they? Still the patriarchal idea that men are expected to do all the action stuff and women the passive stuff (as in the weird sperm theory in the next post).[quote]

It’s not patriarchy if it was caused by both men and women – both pushed for these roles.

Also, how would they be patriarchy? In any sense of the word?

[quote]It seems to me you’re interpreting “toxic masculinity” as “men do bad things” and countering with “women do bad things too.”[quote]

Well, of course. When you only stipulate that toxic masculinity is a terrible thing and must end, then you are ignoring the other half of the problem (toxic femininity), which can usually feed into each. Both men and women are toxic, and this toxicity breeds toxicity.

[quote]No one would deny that the second part is true. I don’t think any gender is better than another. But that line of argument seems to be missing the point. As far as I can tell, the idea of toxic masculinity is that certain VIEWS of what it means to masculine are harmful, and they lead to harmful behaviour.[quote]

Then if that is your definition, I am willing to roll with it. The only reason I had rejected it is because of the plenty of misandrists use it.

[quote](Let me know if that makes sense, and, anyone, feel free to correct anything I’m wrong or unclear about.)[quote]

It makes sense. Let me know if I make sense.

@Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)says:

[quote]@Acid Kritana

“[I]n general I do not believe in toxic masculinity, I will say it’s real if y’all say toxic femininity (of the same kind) is real. Otherwise, I will continue to say toxic masculinity isn’t real.”

The reality of one thing doesn’t make the reality of another thing any more — or less — real.[quote]

Yes, but in this case it does – after all, male and female toxicity feeds into each other and causes a bigger problem of both.

[quote]********************

“If toxic masculinity were real (as were toxic femininity), then I would describe them as the follow:

“Toxic masculinity: When a man (gay/straight, trans/cis, etc.) acts overly masculine, causing harm to his mentality, or decides to hurt other men (physically, emotionally, mentally, etc.) to put them into place/so they don’t deviate (gay, feminine, not marrying a woman, marrying a man, etc.), or otherwise change their behavior. Or kill another man for what they are (gay, trans, atheist, etc.).”

So toxic masculinity is about hurting other men.[quote]

Yes.

[quote]***********************

“Toxic femininity: When a woman (gay/lesbian/straight, trans/cis, etc.) acts overly feminine, causing harm to her mentality, or decides to hurt another woman (physically, emotionally, mentally, etc.) or slut shame them. Attack another woman/girl, or punish her for trying to go after her man/woman/person, or just for not fitting in. Or hit a man/her boyfriend/her husband. Or hit a woman/her girlfriend/her wife. Or hit a person/her dating partner/her spouse. Or to think that she’s better than other women (queen bee syndrome), while thinking that women are better than men (women-are-wonderful effect).”

And toxic femininity is about hurting other women — or men, including hitting them.[quote]

Yes. I said that, did I not?

[quote]I refer you back to your original post:

“[I]n general I do not believe in toxic masculinity, I will say it’s real if y’all say toxic femininity (OF THE SAME KIND) is real. [My all caps.]”

Trolls never care about consistency.[quote]

I was asked to provide a definition, and I did. This is the way I’ll believe in it’s existence. To me, so far, this is the only plausible way they possibly can.

Also, I would like to point out (again) that the only reason I rejected the use of toxic masculinity is because of the way misandrists will use it.

@Elaine The Witchsays:

[quote].45
You forgot the most common form of toxic masculinity which is not going to therapy because having feelings is for a p*ssy.[quote]

I don’t think that’s the reason why, but moreso it doesn’t necessarily work for men (men tend to miss out on male bonding more, and so oftentimes can feel more isolated than women, but not always), but its also because many therapists are biased against men. I can provide some research for this, if you would like.

[quote]Much more manly to just off yourself instead.[quote]

No, they just feel like it’s the only option left.

As someone who has nearly killed himself several times, I find it not only offensive that you claim that, but can also verify that you feel like it’s the only thing you can do left.

Also, on a connected but separate note, while women make more suicide attempts, men make more Serious Suicide Attempts (SSA). (I shall provide evidence for any who ask.)

[quote]The Marines and other military branches call mental health services “going to see the Wizard” because there is this idea it doesn’t actually do anything.[quote]

It needs work, but it does stuff.

[quote]And guess who has highest numbers for taking their own lives? Military members.[quote]

I know this. It obvious. Especially when PTSD and other forms of trauma (including s*xual violence) come into play. Some have also probably been abused before, and there are other factors at play too.

[quote]A mostly male dominated field with high numbers of toxic masculinity.[quote]

That’s not the reason why. It’s moreso because of things like PTSD.

[quote]But no toxic masculinity doesn’t exists because little boy mras like acid says so.[quote]

I only rejected it because of the way misandrists use it.

[quote]Why don’t you take a sh*t on service members who killed themselves since your already pissing on their graves with that shit acid. God you fuckers make me so mad.[quote]

It’s not toxic masculinity that killed them, but rather things such as watching your friends die in front of you or other forms of PTSD, or even s*xual violence, abuse, and more. A little more than you think.

@Battering Lambsays:

[quote]That’d be my reply as well, as that is the most common preconception about what is meant with toxic masculinity. Including Elaine’s point that toxic masculinity considers emotions ‘for p*ssies’ (‘real men’ feel only anger, lust and mild contentment). Toxic masculinity hurts all men, by limiting their ‘allowed’ emotions. And it hurts everybody else because of how those men embedded in that idea lash out.[quote]

It mainly hurts men – men are much more likely to lash out at other men than they are to lash out at women. AKA “The Gentleman’s Code.”

@GSS ex-noobsays:

[quote]I only ever heard the Windex and crayon jokes about Marines too. Never the band thing. All the military branches have bands. But agreed that the military is full of toxic masculinity, which is terrible for both women and men.[quote]

Toxic masculinity is mostly harmful to men, just like toxic femininity is mostly harmful to women.

[quote]MRAs don’t grasp the basic idea, and even when they do, they don’t see how much it hurts men — self-hate, lashing out, suicide, substance abuse, shooting up theaters…[quote]

That’s literally issues we including me, are talking about and fighting against. Trying to end and/or fix.

@Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)says:

[quote]@GSS ex-noob

“MRAs don’t grasp the basic idea, and even when they do, they don’t see how much it hurts men — self-hate, lashing out, suicide, substance abuse, shooting up theaters…”

In the manosphere, those results are a feature not a bug.[quote]

I have no idea what you mean by this.

So… Acid Kritana, you’re explaining the military life to a woman married to a Marine?

As an aside, and I don’t want to come across as trying to call into question your character, or insult, but I am getting the impression you come from a sheltered background. That so?

“Karen behavior toxic femininity, since there are also male Karens, though they tend to be more female than male.”

Karen behavior is not toxic femininity. It’s racism. Because women are socialized to express aggression in passive aggressive ways, you see often see white women committing violence by enlisting white men to throw the actual punches. But racist violence is not exactly a feminine trait as white men are more than happy to do racist violence either on their own or with white women.

@Elaine,

Things we need to fix about the military for 100. Sorry your husband got stabbed, that sucks like all heck. Glad he survived, though! I’ve met a lot of cool sailors, but mist of the retired folks I talk to have some rough stories, men and women both.

@Acid,

It’s past my bedtime but I’m gonna try and dig out some old html knowledge since we lost the nifty quote button.

Instead of [quote] copypasta [quote] which gets real ugly to read, an easy way to html format in the textbox is to do a legit blockquote. If I don’t screw this up…

Typing
<blockquote>This here is a blockquote! </blockquote>

Should look like this:

This here is a blockquote!

Feel free to take or leave. You tend to leave walls of text, and utilizing some old tricks will help greatly with readability so tired people like me don’t go “oh no it’s a wall of text”.

Hopefully my knowledge of HTML from sixth grade hasn’t completely abandoned me, because if it has and the < and > are switched it’ll be a bit embarrassing.

Formatting tip is actually for anyone, if it rendered proper. Don’t know yet if it did. By no means feel obliged, but if it’s a tool you want (and I didn’t fail the execution), there you go!

I’d like to add that proper formatting does not mean a post is particularly smart, nor does ugly as heck formatting mean someone’s the exact opposite of clever… it just means the formatting is what the formatting is.

But good formatting is a really nice courtesy for those who have the knowledge and time to give to making it so.

@Elaine, I don’t talk to marines as much as sailors, because the marines I’ve seen are actually doing things that are NOT to be interrupted… and the navy folks were kind of everywhere and in everything and could absolutely be interrupted (if there’s a reasonable reason).

If you shared posts with the hubby and I ticked him off by talking about the folks I know and not drawing the clear distinction between the branches, my apologies.

@thread
For those not acquainted with all the groups and their rivalries, I think the US is up to six? Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, Air-force, and Space-force.

And none of them like being called any of the other branches.

Although maybe space force would prefer hiding in one of the others? Dammit I need to make friends with a Guardian… and somehow avoid making jokes about marvel comics. Seriously, space force, guardians, why did they leave such tempting joke bait just sitting out there?

I should go to bed. My apologies to any Guardians lurking?

And to the thread at large for being rambley without actually doing anything particularly useful.

@ contrapangloss

Related to your points, this is a bit of Brit military humour.

Might be a bit Brit-Centric…

Bit of trivia if anyone is interested.

In the early days of the US when they were still trying to decide on a flag design, the idea was that the number of stripes would indicate the number of states.Also, civil organisations would use horizontal stripes, and military organisations would use vertical ones.

It was eventually realised that updating the stripes would be quite expensive. There’s just more to sew. It also turned out to be more expensive to sew vertical stripes. So it was deiced just to update the number of stars and have all branches of government use the horizontal stripes.

The Coast Guard however said stuff that and carried on the old way. For a bit anyway. They still have vertical stripes though.

Coasties are a thing unto themselves. They do have the dual responsibility of both rescuing people from sinking/lost boats AND taking on smugglers who are often better-armed than they are, and customs kind of stuff. They might be picking some people out of a leaky ship, or shooting it out with a cartel. Being as they go all the way back to Alexander Hamilton (everybody rap!), they are keeping their odd flags.

I haven’t heard if Space Force really wants to be Space Force (or even is) or if they’d like to stay Air Force (which is a spin-off of the Army).

And a sheltered little boy (with working girl parts) on a submarine — it is to laugh. Never gonna happen.

I come from an infantry and armored cav family, thanks much, with a close family friend who spent years parachuting into the mountains of Afghanistan doing… something. And grampa was a Naval aviator and eventually a skipper. Even little old girly me had a couple Corps of Engineers courses, so if the building that needs secured also needs a road and a bridge built to it (or destroyed), I could give it a go.

@Kat: Of course, how can you be properly (toxic) masculine if you don’t kill someone?

@David: I think acid’s all outta candy, IYKWIM.