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antifeminism gender policing misogyny MRA

Feminist ladies all want to be men; that’s why they have such deep voices, Men’s Rights Redditor contends

Elizabeth Holmes: The Deepest Voice

I learn so much about feminism from reading the Men’s RIghts subreddit. For example, today I learned that feminists — at least those of the feminine persuasion — all want to be men. And that’s why they all have such deep voices.

Let’s let JustSomeGuy2008 explain his theory:

“I’ve noticed a pretty consistent theme with feminist women,” he begins.

They seem to wish they had been born men, and they are resentful of that.

Er, citation needed? No citation given:

it’s not that the treatment of women was worse than the treatment of men. It’s just that the treatment was different.

Like for example, when credit cards first became a thing, single women weren’t allowed to get them. There’s a little difference for you. Further back, we have that whole can’t vote or patent inventions or own property era. Different, different, different.

And I would argue most men and women don’t have that much of an issue with this. Men understand the things which are typically expected of them, and so do women.

Have you ever even met a woman? Serious question.

But feminist women specifically seem to be constantly resentful of the fact that they were born women instead of men. So to them, being treated like a woman is worse, because in their mind, being a man is better, therefore treating someone as a woman (not a man) is objectively worse, which they conclude as misogyny.

Yeah, that’s not how any of this works. Wanting the same rights as men doesn’t mean women want to be men.

One relatively minor example I’ve noticed is how common it is for feminist women to speak with an artificially lowered voice.

Oh yes, that well-known fact. I can think of all of one woman who (allegedly) lowered her voice to impress gullible investors and cause them to give her money for her fraudulent blood test technology. It worked for her, until she got caught. I’m not sure that she counts as a feminist.

I don’t just mean women who have naturally deeper voices. It’s pretty obvious when someone is trying to lower their voice, similar to how you can tell the difference between a high voice and falsetto.

Wouldn’t it have been much cooler if Elizabeth Holmes spoke in falsetto instead of that deep voice?

I’m not sure what my point is except that I love falsetto.

Sorry about the digression; here’s the rest of JustSomeGuy2008’s inane theory:

It seems super consistent when I’ve met hyper-feminist women that they have artificially deepened voices. Whether consciously or subconsciously, they are trying to sound like men.

Wait, wait. I’ve found another example of a woman who sounds like a man.

I mean, she’s fictional. but what are you going to do?

Maybe JustSomeGuy2008 has just been watching too much Venture Bros.

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Full Metal Ox
21 days ago

@Lumipuna:

As for the OP: Here’s wolf goddess Moro from the Ghibli animated film Princess Mononoke, laughing at MRAs in her otherworldly deep voice.

Fun Fact: it’s a common Japanese theatrical convention to have crones (particularly grotesque or supernatural ones) voice-acted by male actors(1); Moro was voiced in the original Japanese by drag queen Miwa Akihiro (who, among other things, played the titular femme fatale villainess in the film adaptation of Mishima Yukio’s Black Lizard.)

(1) In Kabuki, long performed by all-male casts, this means actors who customarily play masculine roles, as opposed to onnagata. I’m wondering if the DC Animated Universe’s casting of Ed Asner as Granny Goodness might be a shout-out to this tradition.

Last edited 21 days ago by Full Metal Ox
Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
21 days ago

Full Metal Ox:
Then there’s the actor in Kurosawa’s Throne of Blood who plays the movie’s equivalent of Shakespeare’s witches, whose voice iirc was slowed *way* down on the soundtrack until it’s an inhuman rumble.

Last edited 21 days ago by Moon Custafer
GSS ex-noob
GSS ex-noob
21 days ago

I first saw Mononoke dubbed, because we’d all had a VERY long busy weekend and none of us felt like reading. We just wanted to look at the pretty pictures and understand the story. Now we watch it subtitled.

English-language Moro was Gillian Anderson. I don’t know any men who’d turn her down. And a lot of women fancy her too.

@Stacy: You are amazing.

Full Metal Ox
21 days ago

@Moon Custafer:

And Mercedes McCambridge as the voice of Pazuzu, the devil possessing Regan, in The Exorcist; she prepared for the role by guzzling raw eggs, chain-smoking, and drinking whiskey to roughen her voice. (Director William Friedkin added another layer of Method Acting by having McCambridge bound to a chair during recordings, the better to portray a demon struggling against its restraints.)

Malintzin
Malintzin
21 days ago

@worked all that out. I have worked customer service jobs. It’s very common for managers to critique their employee’s phone voice and manner. I got plenty of critiques from my boss about my voice and diction. And I’m a woman, with a relatively high voice too, and my boss was definitely a man. I’m happy to review any proof you may wish to offer regarding the “gynocracy”, but this particular example is hardly proof of anything.

Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
21 days ago

@Malintzin

I’m AFAB, and I’ve been criticized for my the way I’ve talked to customers on the phone before too. First, I was being told that I sounded angry when it’s just my voice, and then being told to curve my accent cause it’s to thick and no one likes being told that their order is “pert near done”

StaceySmartypantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartypantsTwiceRemoved
20 days ago

@Lukas Xavier

Besides, from Stacey’s previous mentions of this, I suspect it’s more like doing something nice for someone you care about. If you care about someone, then their wishes are important to you and you don’t require a threat to make you say yes.

And really, who commands better? The one who needs physical threats to prevent you from saying “no”, or the one where you never even want to say “no”?

Yes. You seem to more or less get it. There are a lot of preliminaries that a guy and I go through before he’s even in my presence. After he’s been initially screened and also it’s clear he meets my qualifications for physical attractiveness, my assistants talk to him and make sure he understands truly what I want, and talk to him
deeply, honestly and compassionately so that there’s a very clear core kind of consent as well as clarity of mutual consent on the specifics.

So when he’s actually with me we are both in that mental and emotional place where it’s beyond just selfish fetishized playacting of the type that the troll here thinks is going on (and is probably all the creepy troll can understand).

Most of my guys don’t know me as “Stacey” the artist but as the manifestation of divinity that they worship and have never seen me except dressed as goddess and in my temple so there’s a kind of emotional reality that goes beyond the outer world. It’s like what they call in drama “suspension of disbelief” except 1000 times more. So when I give my commands at the crack of a whip the consequences are not any less real just because their outer “real” persons have deeply consented already.

But I wouldn’t expect this creep to understand even a tenth of all that.

StaceySmartypantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartypantsTwiceRemoved
20 days ago

@GSS ex-noob

Thank you, yes, I am. Both I and my worshippers agree with you.

Nice to see you and I hope you are doing well!

Full Metal Ox
20 days ago

@Stacey:

Over on the next topic (“women are treated like pampered pets”), I’ve posted a music video that might give you some inspiration for Dommewear.

KatinBoots
KatinBoots
19 days ago

@bumblebug:

I hope you can find some help with your voice! From what you describe, it’s already kind of giving you trouble. I’m a teacher AND I sing (as an amateur, not a career, but I do it every week) and if you’re having a sore throat every day from one hour of teaching that sounds concerning…like maybe something is already a problem. I don’t know where you live, but I know that some speech-language professionals specifically help with voice…as well as vocal coaches who tend to work with actors and other vocal performers.

There was a continuing ed workshop I went to a couple years ago where a professional came to talk to all of the college teachers about maintaining the health of your voice and what was good/bad. Some of it was not intuitive! There are all kinds of things that put stress on your vocal chords that I did not know about.

Changing your voice for the sake of listeners is not the goal here: it’s to protect your own health and your skills/livelihood.

bumblebug
bumblebug
19 days ago

@KatinBoots
I’m pretty sure it’s a stress thing because I have pretty bad stage fright. And a 1 hour practice talk to my colleagues doesn’t bother me, but talking in class or presenting to strangers really irritates my throat.
Before the pandemic I was planning on taking some public speaking classes or doing some vocal training but haven’t had time to do that (safely). And I realized in the pandemic that I don’t actually enjoy teaching/academia so I just need to tough out one more quarter.
But thanks so much for the concern!

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
19 days ago

Sorry to rehash the NFT digression, but I was left thinking obsessively about that topic. On the previous page, Alan wrote, in response to Stacey:

You sort of came up in conversation recently. Not by name, but you gave me an idea. 

We’ve been taking a lot about NFTs lately. Love em or hate em; they’re definitely the in vogue topic at the moment.

I was wondering about doing a performance art NFT; but then someone beat us to it anyway.

and

One of the benefits of NFTs is they can literally represent anything; even intangibles. Actually, maybe especially intangibles. So an abstract idea really works.

Ever since the NFT discussion was all over social media, I’ve been morbidly curious, trying to understand the concept and its practical meaning. I previously tried to look up cryptocurrencies on Wikipedia but, very predictably, the relevant articles were walls of jargon written by and for techbros. That was rather unhelpful for me, so now I just try to gather bits and pieces of understanding from random Twitter threads.

Heck, NFTs are a nebulous concept, so to NFT something equally as impossible to define, like Bhakti, would be a perfect subject.

Nebulous indeed. One major thing I’m learning is that NFTs are almost by design difficult to understand; that the discourse around them is deliberately obfuscatory, polarised and unfruitful. This of course makes perfect sense if you believe the commonly made allegations that the entire NFT market has been overwhelmingly built and promoted as a device for scamming and/or money laundering. Very much like religious concepts, I’d say.

So, what kind of things can NFTs represent? Apparently, an NFT can be made of any information that can be coded (if that’s the correct term) into the global blockledger magickthingy, where it’s visible to all. It can include art, visual or otherwise, but it’s apparently impractical to include anything substantial, so typically an NFT is just a receipt of payment for something external, which can be indeed be anything, including things that don’t evidently exist. In another thread, Alan mentioned someone had sold their soul as NFT. This is very much muddled by the fact that the NFT itself is also treated as an object of trade. It’s unclear to me what distinguishes NFTs from regular crypto trading, other than the convention of nominally attaching some external trade goods.

Hardly ever any physical objects are sold as NFT goods, or any functions of ownership transferred. Typically, by convention, the external object of sale a piece of visual art displayed at some online gallery run by a company that makes and sells the NFTs. Often, the art is just silly AI-generated images produced by the same company, though the NFT movement constantly seeks to gain credibility by recruiting actual artists who produce credible art. It doesn’t seem like artists can make a lot of money on NFT deals; indeed, a lot of NFTs are said to involve stolen digital art that was scraped somewhere online.

Thus far, some individual NFT vendors have been “officially” identified as scams since they disappeared and quit hosting their online art gallery, which apparently also damaged the resale value of the NFTs tied to that art. It’s unclear to me whether typical NFT sales actually include any promises for hosting the external content for any period of time. A lot of the resale value of the NFTs seems to depend on people either not understanding what they pay for, or hoping they’ll find some sucker who’ll pay even more in resale. Some predict the whole NFT economy will crash as soon as more gallery websites turn into stale links.

ETA: Actually that really helps understand what an NFT is really. People have alway handed out tokens of affection or other abstract concept, like loyalty to a group, that of themselves might not have much material value (like a souvenir of a first date or other significant memory). So a particular relationship is something readily (NF)Tokenised.

Not very helpful, I’d say. Based on what I’ve gathered, presumably a performance art NFT would point to a video or sound file that’s hosted somewhere online. As for specifically taking the on-scene feelings of Stacey’s subs and selling them – that’d require more creativity to make the buyer feel they’re getting something tangible. Bonus points if you find a way to code the feelings into the NFT itself. Again, the functional purpose of NFTs seems to be to just make people feel, willfully or not, that they’re involving something tangible in crypto trading.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
19 days ago

The impression-from-a-distance I get of this whole NFT affair is that it’s just another way for the superrich to gamble and frolic in their Scrooge McDuck money pools.

Lavish lots of money on the people who need it least and they gamble it and cause asset bubbles. Tulip mania, 1999 dot-coms, 2007 real estate, CDOs, CLOs, NFTs. You can draw a straight line.

Bonus points if you find a way to code the feelings into the NFT itself.

Ten’ll get you one Charles Stross writes something featuring a sapient NFT as a character by 2030.

Lukas Xavier
Lukas Xavier
19 days ago

@Stacey
Thanks for clarifying. It’s an interesting look into a very different way of doing things. Given how screwed up our general culture is on these points, figuring out alternatives seems like a good thing.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
18 days ago

@Lukas Xavier

Given how screwed up our general culture is on these points, figuring out alternatives seems like a good thing.

That’s right. Our culture is screwed up massively about nearly everything, because of patriarchal bullshit but especially screwed up about women’s sexuality. So I’m very different and take great joy in that. I don’t have sexual or romantic relationships at all outside my art and life as a living goddess. The creeps and wankers act like that means I get whatever I want but that’s not always definite. Very occasionally I used to sometimes meet a guy I’m attracted to and find out he’s a sweet and artistic and am happy that he seems interested and then I had to break it to him that I don’t “date” and that in order for us to be together he’ll have to do things my way and go through the process of becoming one of my worshippers taking the risk that he might say “oh hell no you’re crazy that’s definitely not for me.” But it’s worth it because I get to be the powerful bitch-goddess that I really truly want to be in the depths of my soul.

Full Metal Ox
18 days ago

@Surplus to Requirements:

Ten’ll get you one Charles Stross writes something featuring a sapient NFT as a character by 2030.

I bet Chuck Tingle will get there a lot sooner.

Alan Robertshaw
18 days ago

I used to be very much of the opinion that crypto was a bubble and blockchain was a solution in search of a problem. And I am still a bit sceptical.

Having said that though a lot of previously marginalised groups and individuals have been making great use of NFTs to bypass the traditional gallerist gatekeeping and sell directly to the public. NFTs have played a very big part in the democratisation of the art market. And a lot of people who might otherwise be starving in a garret are doing very well for themselves.

It is very much like the Tulip bubble though in that most people weren’t affected at all by it; just a handful of wild speculators.

I get what people say about the culture and the terminology though. I’m involved with a DAO on the legal side. There are basically three distinct areas/demographics. There’s the artists, the techno-kids, and the lawyers. If this was a Venn diagram there’s a few people who are at home in two of those sectors, but hardly anyone who groks all three.

I do though like the opportunities NFTs provide for innovative ideas. Like for example Stacey tokenising devotion.

And it’s not like owning nothingness or overvaluing works is limited to new technology. That Salvatore Mundi sold for $450 million; but the general consensus is it’s worth a few grand tops.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
18 days ago

Having said that though a lot of previously marginalised groups and individuals have been making great use of NFTs to bypass the traditional gallerist gatekeeping and sell directly to the public. NFTs have played a very big part in the democratisation of the art market.

Though I keep hearing that both porn producers and furry artists have generally avoided touching NFTs with a ten inch dildo, for whatever reasons they see valid. BTW, stolen furry art is said to sometimes show up in NFTs.

I bet Chuck Tingle will get there a lot sooner.

“Pounded In The Butt By A Drawing Of Non Fungible Tiger I Bought With My Stash Of Weedcoin*”

*I’m 100 % certain there’s some novelty cryptocurrency called “Weedcoin”, so why not reheat the old WHTM meme of trading tigers for weed.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
18 days ago

I am also new to the NFT thing but could imagine not just tokenizing my worshippers’ devotion but other aspects of my power. I would love to tokenize an original file of a video of me rejecting a male suitor on this basis of his physical appearance alone. That would be so powerful in a deeply profound way especially. The reasons why it’s powerful in the first place have as a lot of meaning and power themselves. That feels intuitively something I should do flying.

Last edited 18 days ago by StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
Contrapangloss
Contrapangloss
18 days ago

Alan, I think NFTs and PETA might be the two issues that you and I will never see eye-to-eye on, and that’s okay.

I’m very much not a fan of either.

For NFTs, one of the recent ones that made me grumble was an NFT tree operation, where each NFT represented a sepecific tree, and entitled the NFT owner to visit that tree annually.

There is no way any single tree can offset enough carbon to ‘cancel out’ the energy cost of creating the NFT that represents it AND the carbon cost of the NFT holder running out to visit it, just to say they did.

I’m incredibly skeptical of “NFTs can save the climate” rhetoric, and I’m not sure that the fact that artists ARE finding a way to utilize them for art can undo the damage they do elsewhere.

Maybe I’m just a curmudgeon, though.

Alan Robertshaw
18 days ago

@ contrapangloss

We might not be that far apart in reality. There’s a lot of debate within the animal rights community about all the organisations and their tactics. PETA and DxE crop up a lot.

But there’s also a sort of tacit agreement that no-one ever criticises another animal rights organisation publicly. We are after all working towards the same goal. So public in-fighting is shooting ourselves in the foot.

And you’re quite right about the environmental impact of NFTs, and blockchain generally. In one sense the environmental impact is negligible compared to the main drivers of things like climate change. Apparently it’s a lot less than online gaming (we should bring back LAN parties!); and of course I’d make the point about animal-ag.

But I share your scepticism about ‘green’ NFT minting. I’m very unimpressed by things like carbon credits generally. So much of it is just greenwashing.

And I don’t think you’re a curmudgeon. Well, not compared to me. I’m one step away from standing at the roadside wearing a Barbour coat, with a black Labrador, yelling “Slow down!” at passing traffic.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
18 days ago

@Full Metal Ox:

I bet Chuck Tingle will get there a lot sooner.

Who?

Dalillama
18 days ago

@Surplus
Hugo-nominated author Chuck Tingle writes surreal and satirical erotica, and maintains a surreal and satirical web presence. He rose to prominence during the whole Sad/Rabid Puppies thing a few years back, check the archives for more on that

.45
.45
18 days ago

@ Stacy

Suitor? That term sounds very classy and I kind of wonder how many of them are actually classy.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
18 days ago

@ .45

Yes, I was being sarcastic. Most don’t deserve to be called that. I could have said would-be suitor, although in my current life situation the worst unacceptable creeps aren’t even allowed to be near me and have no way of getting near me so I don’t have to put up with them like I once did. There are some decent-acting respectful men who one way or the other through art community connections express an interest respectfully but who I’m also not attracted to physically and don’t meet my physical requirements. Those I might consider worthy of the term suitor even though they have exactly zero chance and an original audio or video file of me mercilessly rejecting one, while I look absolutely amazing (like being in full latex with hair colored the same, on a wire so I look like I’m hovering in the air like a supernatural being) and, most importantly, making very clear that the reason I’m turning him down is his physical appearance, would be awesome to tokenize because of the sacred energy that the action embodies. It’s sacred energy because to do that would really reveal whether the guy has a secret NiceGuy(TM) self underneath.

Mabret the Virile Maiden
Mabret the Virile Maiden
17 days ago

NFTs are vile, no more than a planet-killing, computer-killing, economy-killing instrument of speculation. The alleged virtues of NFTs can be had with less drastic cost by traditional methods.