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Credit card declined? You’re going to have to eat bugs, according to Infowars weirdo Paul Joseph Watson

Well, it’s better than having the bugs eat you

So a Swedish tech startup called Doconomy is releasing what they call “the world’s first credit card with a carbon footprint limit.” The idea is to track the carbon footprint of all the shit you buy on a regular basis and encourage people to buy carbon offsets when they spend too much money on environmentally harmful stuff.

So where exactly does the mandatory bug eating come in?

That bit of unappetizing prophecy comes courtesy of the overheated imagination of Infowars blabber and general scaremonger Paul Joseph Watson, who in a recent video tried to argue that the DO Black card would put us on a slippery slope to compulsory bug dinners.

Eating too much red meat this month? Take one too many car journeys? Not recycled enough garbage? Well in the near future when you go to pay for something on your credit card you could be met with this: transaction denied, you’ve reached your co2 emission limit.

Uh oh. That sounds ominous.

That steak dinner you plan for tonight is actually gonna be a bug burger made of mealworms all washed down with an invigorating cup of … worm poo tea.

Actually, on the off chance I ever go to a restaurant that serves both steak and mealworm burgers (and makes you pay before you eat), and my DO Black card is declined I think I would just whip out a different credit card and pay with that.

But Watson has a whole elaborate scenario for the future in which these cards are your only option. He notes that in a recent paper in Nature discusses the possibility of “mandatory [personal carbon allowances] or personal carbon-trading schemes” in the future that could help “to promote low-carbon lifestyles in a synergetic manner.” The authors of the paper actually reject the idea of “carbon card” and suggest using smartphones instead. They also point out that whoever implements their altogether hypothetical scheme will have to provide possible subsidies to keep poor people from getting too screwed over.

I’m not sure Watson, his head filled with visions of worm dinners, has read the whole paper, which was more an extended thought experiment rather than a concrete proposal. And no, it contained nothing about eating bugs.

But Watson can’t get the bugs out of his head.

There you were thinking you’d never eat the bugs once you top out your co2 ration limit. It could be a choice between consuming the crickets or going hungry. But wait, not only could future purchases be dependent on whether you’ve topped out on your carbon footprint.

They’re also announcing that credit scores could be based not on the fact that you’ve abused credit and got yourself into mountains of debt … but … on … non-financial customer data such as browsing histories and online shopping behavior … or customer ratings for online vendors. [Or] you shared an article that the fact checkers weren’t happy with. [Or] you tweeted a nasty thing about Jeff Bezos. [Or] you failed to post the black square for BLM. Now you can’t get a loan; now you can’t get a bank account; now you can’t get a mortgage.

Or, apparently, a roast beef sandwich.

I’ve heard dried locusts, ants and beetles are an acquired taste. Well, if the technocrats get their way you’ll be acquiring it very soon.

If we ever get to that point (we won’t) I’m pretty sure Infowars will start selling bug protein supplements. I’m kind of surprised they don’t sell them already.

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Trying
Trying
1 month ago

Hakuna matata.

Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

There is actually a lot of investment now in using insects, especially mealworms, as a food source.

With the global population estimated to increase to 10 billion by 2050, and food production needing to increase by as much as 70% to meet growing demand, serious challenges are posed around the sustainability of our food production systems, particularly in regards to meat.

We continue this discussion with another option — insects. We see scope for insects to reduce the environmental burden of our food system as an alternative for both animal feed and food for human consumption.

Although there are numerous hurdles to overcome, notably regulation, price and cultural acceptance, we see insects as a viable middle ground for consumers wanting to make their diets more sustainable without going entirely plant-based, as well as offering a more sustainable source of animal feed. The insect protein market could be worth up to $8bn by 2030 (+24% CAGR) and we see upside if the supply and demand factors continue to develop favourably, similar to what we have seen in the plant-based space.

https://www.investmentbank.barclays.com/content/dam/barclaysmicrosites/ibpublic/documents/our-insights/InsectProtein/Leaflet%20Alt%20Meat_WEB.pdf

as the world’s population grows, and the proportion of the global population which can afford livestock products increases, then this competition would be expected to result in higher prices and increasing uncertainty with regard to supply chain stability. As such, if UK agriculture is going to continue to satisfy the demand for meat and animal products, then novel sources of protein will need to be identified and developed.

https://businesswales.gov.wales/farmingconnect/news-and-events/technical-articles/potential-sources-protein-animal-feed-insects

Megi Stardust
Megi Stardust
1 month ago

Gross

Moggie
Moggie
1 month ago

PJW does have some weird ideas about eating at restaurants:

https://youtu.be/McRSjIhxf0U

Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ moggie

That was weird. I’m not sure that paying $12 for a $1 chocolate bar is really ‘sticking it to the man’. Or at least, if that’s his activism, I suspect the restaurant will be willing to live with it.

Related: I once took my goddaughter to a hip restaurant. She decided she just wanted beans on toast; and a kit-kat. Bless them, they nipped to the shop down the road and actually made that for her.

Turns out she was a trend setter.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-318777/8-Jamies-beans-toast.html

Dalillama
1 month ago

I rather suspect that carniculture is going to beat out insect protein in cultures that don’t currently eat them if meat gotten directly from vertebrates goes by the wayside. It’s a not uncommon scifi conceit that people from high tech cultures are perfectly happy to eat all manner of meat dishes, but won’t even contemplate eating anything that used to be a living animal. This is especially prevalent among stationers, belters, lunarians, and other folk who live in artificial habitats full-time.

Last edited 1 month ago by Dalillama
Full Metal Ox
1 month ago

I remember the source movie for the header GIF: The Deadly Mantis (1957), by Universal-International Pictures; my family used to own that on 8mm, to be whipped out for sleepovers; it was preceded on the reel by the Woody Woodpecker cartoon “Who’s Cooking Who?”

Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ dali

You ever read Arthur C Clarke’s Food of the Gods?

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

“Credit card declined unless you eat a prawn cocktail.”

I can live with that.

Dalillama
1 month ago

@Alan
Nope. Run across the idea elsewhere, though, and it will definitely happen. Not in secret, though, it’ll be their entire marketing program.

Big Titty Demon
Big Titty Demon
1 month ago

 It could be a choice between consuming the crickets or going hungry.

I mean it seems really obvious if you’re that worried about bugs, you could just… you know… eat a vegetarian dish. Bean burger. Problem solved. Whew, that was easy, all that worrying about bugs, just gone! Whatever will I do with the time I saved?

I bet this guy is constitutionally incapable of eating a veggie burger. It’d probably cause his face to explode like Arnie in that Mars movie.

GSS ex-noob
GSS ex-noob
1 month ago

PJW: Nobody likes him, everybody hates him, he’s gonna eat some woooorrrrrms.

That’s all the brainpower I feel like using on this.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
1 month ago

I expect that carbon reduction, especially in the context of food consumption, will be an exhaustingly huge culture war issue in the US in near future. Conservatives will fearmonger about being forced to eat strawmen in a generally dystopian totalitarian setting. Based on this piece, apparently the prospect of eating insect-based meat substitute is even more horrifying to conservatives than eating like a vegetarian or traditional poor person.

Alan wrote:

There is actually a lot of investment now in using insects, especially mealworms, as a food source.

There was notable business hype about this in Finland a couple years ago, which then promptly fizzled out, causing at least one pioneering cricket farm to fail. Some meat-eating conservatives were crowing, as they saw this as a vindication of their view that real people want to eat real food now and forever.

(Personally, I consider insects, like fish and other seafood, to be “meat” technically and for pretty much all practical purposes.)

Although there are numerous hurdles to overcome, notably regulation, price and cultural acceptance, we see insects as a viable middle ground for consumers wanting to make their diets more sustainable without going entirely plant-based

Eh, I think a viable middle ground for most people would be just eating less meat and dairy. Many wouldn’t even need to try out non-conventional protein sources. Or, preferring fish and chicken over more carbon-heavy animals would be likely about as good as preferring insects. It seems few people enjoy eating mealworms for their taste and texture. If I needed a generic protein supplement in my diet, I’d go for soy, which is otherwise better environmentally and ethically. I doubt many people will find insects more appealing than plant-based protein sources. Also, there will likely be lab-grown meat, as Dalillama suggested.

Seth S
Seth S
1 month ago

Have these people never heard of Fy?

I really want to try it myself…. microbe-fermented protein sheets, originally cultured from a strain of Fusarium fungus found in acidic springs in Yellowstone. Has all the essential amino acids humans need, apparently, and low in fat. Very easy to grow indoors in warehouses on carts that hold baking sheets, within cities, requiring only proper tool sterilization and appropriate culture handling techniques (same as for yogurt or any other fermented foods), temperature control, and a nutrient broth to ferment. It produces 5.4 times the protein per acre of crops as beef,1.3 times more protein per acre than plant protein sources, using 99% less water, and takes just 3.5 days to produce one full baking sheet of the stuff, which works out to one baking sheet being the equivalent of 30 whole chickens per year… so ONE cart that holds 20 sheets is 600 chickens in a year… I’m not sure if much cage space would hold 600 chickens in a year even at the worst factory farm.
The fungus also naturally produces a fibrous mat as it grows, that mimics the fibrous texture of meat, albeit less organized/without a dominant direction, because it’s not muscle. Because of that it requires less processing to be turned into seasoned food than many other microbe-based protein sources that require extensive processing and are used more as food additives.

IMO this is going to be the way of the future. If it tastes okay and is affordable, I’ll totally (mostly) replace meat in my diet with fungus protein.

I’m not sure why I find the idea of eating fungus mats preferable to eating bugs. Maybe it’s because I’ll also drink beer or eat bread?

Last edited 1 month ago by Seth S
Lumipuna
Lumipuna
1 month ago

I mean it seems really obvious if you’re that worried about bugs, you could just… you know… eat a vegetarian dish.

Turns out humans, unlike cartoon lions, aren’t obligate carnivores.

Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
1 month ago

[Y]ou tweeted a nasty thing about Jeff Bezos.

Everybody and her sister has tweeted nasty things about Jeff Bezos. It’s pretty much mandatory for a person with self-respect to say bad things about this robber baron/astronaut. If this becomes a law, they’re gonna run out of bugs.

Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
1 month ago

Speak of the devil, aka Jeff Bezos:

California limits use of productivity quotas by Amazon, other warehouse companies

Gov. Gavin Newsom says the new law, which targeted Amazon, will protect workers and give them “the dignity, respect and safety they deserve.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/22/amazon-california-productivity-quotas/

Now I’m even more glad that I voted against recalling Governor Newsom. Plus he’s a good-looking guy. Take that, incels.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
1 month ago

Seth S:

The fungus also naturally produces a fibrous mat as it grows, that mimics the fibrous texture of meat, albeit less organized/without a dominant direction, because it’s not muscle.

So it’s essentially a lab grown mushroom. Mushrooms can indeed be a nice “plant” based alternative to meat sometimes. Remains to be seen if this is ecologically or economically more efficient than traditional mushroom farming.

Longest time lurker
Longest time lurker
1 month ago

@Alan

Your Goddaughter reminds me of when my aunt and uncle took me out to a very very fancy restaurant to celebrate my graduation, except I was taking an MAOI-inhibitor and had a list of Thngs I Could Not Eat On Pain Of Severe Reaction which was about a foot long. Including all the things expensive restaurants like to use, such as stocks, sauces, aged meat, cheese, red wine… The head chef came out, looked at me like he thought I was lying, went through a transformation as he realised no one could possibly be that specifically picky, and then created the tastiest meal I have ever eaten. It also did not try to kill me even a little bit!

Lizzie
Lizzie
1 month ago

Without going to the trouble of looking things up- about ten years ago I bought a book for a friend which was all about the use of maggots as a food source. The food producers used a bunch of flies to produce a heap of maggots and then ground the maggots into flour that could be used as food for animals, or of course for humans’ food – baking bread etc. Seemed an excellent idea, given the fast production of maggots and the ease of drying, grinding them into flour etc.

Lizzie
Lizzie
1 month ago

Without going to the trouble of looking things up- about ten years ago I bought a book for a friend which was all about the use of maggots as a food source. The food producers used a bunch of flies to produce a heap of maggots and then ground the maggots into flour that could be used as food for animals, or of course for humans’ food – baking bread etc. Seemed an excellent idea, given the fast production of maggots and the ease of drying, grinding them into flour etc.

Skiriki
Skiriki
1 month ago

FYI I’ve made chocolate-coated honey-salted crickets and locusts once as a treat to a birthday party and they were pretty nice; I personally liked crickets better, but it turns out that thanks to my seafood & fish allergies, I’m also mildly allergic to both critters, so this is a no-go to me.

You will need some swift reflexes with this one.

  1. Acquire a desired amount of crickets or locusts, freeze-dried; clean off legs, wings, heads.
  2. Heat a pan, and start with high heat; put the creepycrawlies on the pan and stir. Let them brown a tiny bit, then pour in very runny honey and stir stir stir stir don’t let honey burn or else!
  3. Put lumps of creepies on a baking sheet spread over cool large pan, either as singles or in small lumps; sprinkle with some fancy salt lightly and let them cool.
  4. Once cool, either put them into moulds and pour dark chocolate over them, or roll in dark chocolate. Let them cool, consider the idea of giving them a spin in dark cocoa or powdered sugar (or blend of both, both is good too).
  5. Feel free to improvise with all kinds of things, such as marshmallow dip before chocolate etc.
  6. Finally, Watson is a screaming large adult baby.
LollyPop
LollyPop
1 month ago

“worm poo tea”

For goodness sake. Is the man FIVE? *rolls eyes for eternity*

To be fair the credit card just sounds like a misguided attempt to avoid the inevitable fact that one way or another our current monetary system will not survive climate change – whether that’s solving it or letting the world go to shit. There is not a market solution to this, and if we removed the increasingly detrimental “having to make a profit” stage out of managing resources we’d handle the situation better.

I personally would like to see a world where food production was organised so we meet everyone’s basic calorie needs through plant-based/ lab grown means, while farmers, fishermen and community gardens could continue to grow and sell items in a much reduced, environmentally friendly and generally locally-based “market” capacity. So no one is in fear of starvation, but you don’t destroy local food cultures or inhibit humans proclivity to barter, trade etc.

moregeekthan
moregeekthan
1 month ago

My personal question, how desperate does the search for alternative protein sources need to get before red beans & rice becomes a common menu item?

sarah_kay_gee
sarah_kay_gee
1 month ago

PeeJayDubs thinks paying for a dinner at an Austin restaurant whose owner’s politics he disagrees with is a good way to “own” said owner, so… I’m not sure he fully understands restaurants: how do they work?

When InfoWars starts selling mealworm- and cricket-based supplements, will they be as chock-full of delicious lead as everything they sell now is??

Last edited 1 month ago by sarah_kay_gee
Chris Oakley
Chris Oakley
1 month ago

“Infowars weirdo”…there’s a redundant phrase if I ever heard one.

Skiriki
Skiriki
1 month ago

@moregeekthan:

IDK, but insects/spiders/worms/grubs are legit source of protein in many cultures around the world and I for one would not want to snub what they have to offer us. Getting to know how other people live and prepare food is an opportunity to understand each other. It is not “exotic” — it is everyday reality to them and so is raising/harvesting them for food.

Likewise, I cannot eat red beans (or lentils, or other beans, peas and a host of other plants) due to IBS which goes completely berserk and leaves me seriously weakened (prior to strict periodical FODMAP diet) — I don’t want to rest/sleep/coma 16 to 20 hours after such episode, which was typical back then. And when it isn’t IBS messing up my guts, then it is allergies, sensitivity to various greens and diabetes.

I absolutely wish I could go vegetarian, but this is unfortunately not a realistic option to me; I’m already paying today the decision of using dried onions in cooking, and the bathroom was a Bristol Scale 7 catastrophe all day long. I have tried and there has been lots of mopping in bathroom as a result of those experiments.

Dalillama
1 month ago

@Seth S
Just like Spirulina algae, cultured yeast, and farmed plankton, right?

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
1 month ago

@Lumipuna

There was notable business hype about this in Finland a couple years ago, which then promptly fizzled out, causing at least one pioneering cricket farm to fail.

I remember the hype. It seemed weird to me at the time that insect farming was made out to be the way of the future, the best chance of feeding the masses their much-needed protein… and then most of the actual product examples were either some sort of fine dining curiosities or insect flour to be used in highly processed stuff like protein bars. Might just have been the sources I was following at the time, but it didn’t really seem like a revolution in the making.

Seth S
Seth S
1 month ago

@Dalillama

I’m not sure how you mean? Those are all “food additive” type cultured protein sources. The growth methods used would probably be mostly the same, I imagine. The thing is, spirulina, plankton and yeasts don’t have enough substance to stand on their own as a meat replacement. Their final pure form is as powders or flakes and IIRC most people use them more like they’d use a condiment, rather than as a food item. It’s surely possible to get enough protein with them if you add them to everything through the day, but if you want to use them as a meat replacement in a recipe and take the role of replacing chicken breast, you’re out of luck.

But Fy is meant to be used as a food by itself with comparatively minimal processing. Just get out the excess water so that you have a soft mushy thin slab of “microbe meat”, season it up, and cook it as desired. Even with the (actually very closely related/same genus) fungus they use to make Quorn vegetarian and vegan products, they still dry the fungal culture out and then use either an egg or potato based binder with it to make, for instance, their “chicken” nuggets, so that stuff is really just as processed as any conventional chicken nuggets you get from the frozen food section. Processed food is still not great for you, even when it’s vegan.

So it’s a different niche than those other cultured proteins, I guess? If you want a cultured meat replacement that isn’t meat but acts a lot like meat and can be used in a similar way to meat on its own without a lot of extra processing, Fy is a better option by far.

Of course, if you’re just talking about hype, maybe, maybe not. Time will tell. I just kind of hope it’ll catch on because the “relatively unprocessed cultured meat replacement” niche is essentially unfilled. Yes, it’s a stupid thing for me to be excited about, but I don’t care.

I’ve seen the articles about “lab grown meat” that actually is cultured from animal cells, and while that’s definitely intriguing from an ethical standpoint, I think it’s ultimately probably not going to be worth how much it would likely cost in both time and money to grow steaks in petri dishes on the scale that would be needed to eliminate the beef farming industry.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
1 month ago

Masse_Mysteria:

I remember the hype. It seemed weird to me at the time that insect farming was made out to be the way of the future, the best chance of feeding the masses their much-needed protein… and then most of the actual product examples were either some sort of fine dining curiosities or insect flour to be used in highly processed stuff like protein bars.

There was also the concurrent brief fad of high-protein diet, and food companies seemed to be testing the waters by launching products such as protein enhanced bread etc. I think the protein sources were usually either soy or milk based. There was also rapid development of new plant based meat substitutes (and even some milk based ones, because dairy industry was hoping consumers would miss the whole point of the meat substitute fad, I guess).

The weirdest thing was the “cricket bread”, which actually contained very little cricket, presumably because adding a substantial amount would make the bread expensive and probably not very much like conventional bread. I think it was basically about selling the fashionable image of insect protein added in the sort of product the company in question already had expertise in making. If that concept had proved successful, you could then try selling a product with a substantial amount of cricket in it.

Big Titty Demon
Big Titty Demon
1 month ago

@Seth S

Yes, it’s a stupid thing for me to be excited about, but I don’t care.

Why is it a stupid thing for you to be excited about, precisely? I’m really curious. It seems to me from what you have described that it’s intended to eventually be a cost-effective and viable way to replace quite a lot of animal suffering. Why is that stupid?

Dalillama
1 month ago

@Seth S

But Fy is meant to be used as a food by itself with comparatively minimal processing

Yes, that’s what they said about the other things back when. It turned out that they weren’t so great as all that, and that there were more scaling difficulties than anticipated, etc. There’s not a single product, however derived, that will be a magic bullet to fix all the problems in our food systems, or replace meat. (Indeed, I rather suspect that nothing will ever completely replace meat, but the ways it’s acquired may change, as well as the proportion of it iin the general diet)

Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ longest time lurker

Hi! Lovely to meet you. I do feel for you with the food intolerance thing. So many places just pin people as ‘fussy eater’. One mate was so annoyed they almost decided to go into anaphylaxis just to make the point. But I’m glad the restaurant got you sorted!

@ skiriki & lumipuna

There was a place in Spitalfields market that sold insect based food. Chocolate covered ants, scorpions in toffee. That sort of thing. They seemed to do a pretty storming business.

@ threp

It’s weird people will happily eat prawns but turn their noses up at insects. I mean, prawns are basically just cockroaches that can hold their breath.

@ general

If insect protein becomes a thing I suspect it will be used as a bulking agent in stuff like ready meals. Like they did with horsemeat before the scandal.

The story behind mycoprotein is quite interesting. It was originally intended as cattle feed. Then they decided to make fake mince just to see if anyone would buy it. And the rest is history.

Oh, and if people are wondering about the name, it’s because the guys behind it used an abandoned fermenter on a farm in this village.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn,_Leicestershire

Of course, if you want to cause ructions in the vegan community about fungi based food, just bring this up 😀

comment image?ezimgfmt=rs:0x0/rscb3/ng:webp/ngcb3

Last edited 1 month ago by Alan Robertshaw
Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
1 month ago

Do any of you know what a bitlocker recover key is?

Dalillama
1 month ago

@Alan
I’m consistent; can’t abide the taste of those things, sea or land

@Elaine
It appears that bitlocker is Microsoft’s file encryption program, so a recovery key would presumably allow you yo decrypt a file.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

@Elaine

Yes. It’s a password Windows requires to access an encrypted drive. Should be a copy in your microsoft account if your local copy got trashed. Try https://account.microsoft.com/devices/recoverykey

GSS ex-noob
GSS ex-noob
1 month ago

@Skiriki: I have a friend with the exact same problems who lives in a high-vegan area. Maybe you and she can hire a vegan to clean the bathroom after trying their ways.

She really misses fruit the most.

@Seth S: I like the sound of Fy, particularly the fibrous part. I’ve never had a mushroom that didn’t make me gag from the (lack of) texture.

Also found in Yellowstone geothermal springs: an organism that led to many of our current means of forensics. So I guess you could eat Fy while watching CSI thanks to our microscopic friends.

Oooh, Fy foods are now on sale in Berkeley.

Last edited 1 month ago by GSS ex-noob
Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
1 month ago

@ Lumipuna
I remember the milk-based meat substitute thing. I was kind of surprised when so many vegans seemed to think that it was a scam of some sort. My diet is vegetarian, but I try to mostly eat vegan, and it’s seemed to me that for a lot of sandwiches, the “no meat” option is something and cheese, so I thought substituting meat with something milk-based was just the done thing.

@Alan
The first time I ever talked to a vegan, I asked if vegans ate yeast, which got me a very nonplussed reaction. When asked to clarify why I thought they wouldn’t, I said I thought it was a fungus or something. It took a while before it turned out that I’d always thought of veganism meaning you only eat plants, even though I knew it meant no animal products. Thought processes are funny things.

Now I think maybe the vegan I was talking to had had lip from someone before because of that cladogram and was suspected I was trying to trick them…

David J
David J
1 month ago

As Watson is a noted liar and projector, he’s probably already eating bugs. Just call him Renfield.

Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ masse mysteria

Yeah; there’s quite a thing now about terminology. Like there’s a push to use ‘plant based’ in relation to food. To highlight veganism is not a diet; it’s a moral stance. Like lots of athletes are now ‘vegan’. But that’s often just for performance rather than ethics.

But as you rightly point out, fungi aren’t actually plants.

I guess though it’s a bit like how tomatoes are fruits; but you generally don’t put them in a fruit cocktail.

ETA: There’s a gazzilion definitions of veganism, from all sorts of cultural viewpoints; and of course the word vegan is itself a 1950s invention. The Vegan Society definition is:  “Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.” 

Note the qualifications there; which is why vaccination, even though it can involve animal exploitation, is acceptable to most vegans. And no mention of plants! (or fungi).

I find that Ahimsa fits best with my own take on it all.

Last edited 1 month ago by Alan Robertshaw
Lumipuna
Lumipuna
1 month ago

Masse_Mysteria:

I remember the milk-based meat substitute thing. I was kind of surprised when so many vegans seemed to think that it was a scam of some sort. My diet is vegetarian, but I try to mostly eat vegan, and it’s seemed to me that for a lot of sandwiches, the “no meat” option is something and cheese, so I thought substituting meat with something milk-based was just the done thing.

To be clear, I don’t consider it a scam exactly; just an odd way to use milk. Maybe it’s better in (some people’s) culinary terms than plant based meat substitutes. IDK if it’s better environmentally or ethically than, say, chicken, or even beef. I know the Finnish dairy-beef industry is constantly working to improve its environmental efficiency

I gather that lactovegetarian eaters generally have a fairly low consumption of animal produce, and I respect that. I don’t personally understand systematic refusal to eat only certain kinds of animal produce (that aren’t considered necessarily super problematic), but since I’m not a vegan either, I can’t call it hypocrisy. personally I try to think different food sources from the standpoint of moderation and harm reduction, if possible on case by case basis. Hence, there’s no special name for my diet.

Alan:

To highlight veganism is not a diet; it’s a moral stance.

Cue aliens from Vega: “It’s a whole culture, not just a cuisine”

Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ lumipuna

Cue aliens from Vega: “It’s a whole culture, not just a cuisine”

I’ll only be concerned if the aliens announce they’re humanitarians.

numerobis
numerobis
1 month ago

I’ve had pasta made with 20% crickets. It was OK. Kind of had an aftertaste reminiscent of an odour I associate with the wood shed, which made me realize what that smell was.

The whole personal carbon budget thing is nonsense though. The idea that individuals must take personal choices for climate is a way for companies to avoid taking responsibility for what options individuals have.

numerobis
numerobis
1 month ago

Masse_Mysteria: Yeast granules aren’t pure yeast, they’ve got other stuff keeping it together. Some brands use (or used) animal products.

White sugar is also sometimes not universally considered vegan; the sugar is filtered through some kind of char. Bone char is one option for that. Since it’s not an ingredient it’s not disclosed what kind of char they used to whiten your sugar.

There’s a bunch of things like that which depend exactly how serious you are whether you care or not.

One of the things that bothers me with veganism is the preference for plastic over leather or wool. It indicates that indirect killing through environmental destruction is fine by them, it’s just direct killing they have an issue with.

Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ numerobis

One of the things that bothers me with veganism is the preference for plastic over leather or wool.

You raise a valid point. But it is a topic that is of concern in vegan communities.

Firstly, most vegans accept that it’s better to keep using ‘legacy’ items until they wear out. So if you have an old leather belt from your carnist days, it’s ok to use it til the end of its natural life rather than unnecessarily buy a replacement; with all the environmental impact of manufacturing a new product.

Also, a lot of vegans are big into plastic alternatives like hemp.

On balance though a vegan lifestyle probably does reduce plastic use. Like there’s all that fuss about plastic straws; when 46% of ocean plastic is just detritus from the fishing industry.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/great-pacific-garbage-patch-plastics-environment

And just generally, we seem to prefer avoiding direct harm as opposed to indirect. Trolly car problems and the distaste for utilitarianism and all that.

I also suspect that most animals would prefer a bit of extra waste than being eaten. I know I would!

Sheila Crosby
Sheila Crosby
1 month ago

I have a friend from Rhodesia (that is, it was still Rhodesia when she was growing up.) She used to enjoy a certain kind of caterpillar as a delicacy. When she first came to the UK the thought of eating prawns and shrimp made her shudder, the way I shudder at the thought of eating insects. Then she was invited to the house of someone she didn’t know well with a group of friends, and given a prawn cocktail.

Politeness and gag-reflex fought it out, and politeness won, and she’s loved prawns ever since.