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misogyny MRA reddit sex

Men’s Rights Redditor: Birth control “should it only be sold with a waiver in which you forgo claims to child support in the event of an unplanned pregnancy”

Well, this guy’s got it all figured out.

I love that he’s got all the little details worked out, like the extra PDF copy, the email notification, all that. It’s FOOLPROOF, I tell ya!

This was the best (by which I mean worst) response in the comments, from a fellow called Gaiinahat: 

No. It’s unnecessary. Men just have to be smart about it, or suffer the consequences. Bring your own condoms. Use your own condoms. Flush your condoms when you’re done. If she don’t want to use condoms, don’t have sex. It’s not rocket science. Just use common freaking sense.

“BuT iM oN tHe PiLL!” If I didn’t see you take it, and I didn’t see the doctor shoot it into you, as far as I’m concerned, you’re not on the pill. “BuT iM aLlErGiC tO cOnDoMs!” Then I guess it’s just you and your vibrating rabbit tonight. I’m going to go find a chick who ISN’T “allergic” to condoms. There are women out there who will call you out and say, “Hey, my friend needs some dick. You in or you out?” Let’s go, bitch, I’m in.

Men, don’t be stupid. A piece of ass is not worth it. All it takes is one time.

Oh, by the way, if someone is allergic to condoms, by which they probably mean that they’re allergic to latex, guess what, you can buy other kinds of condoms that aren’t made of latex. In other news, I’m guessing the guy who wrote this comment is 14 years old and does not actually go around giving ultimatums to “bitches.”

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Chris Oakley
Chris Oakley
2 months ago

I know this is off-topic, but the New York Times is reporting that Robert Durst has been found guilty of murder.

Robert Haynie
Robert Haynie
2 months ago

In before anyone compares this to a pre-nup.

Actually, it’s kinda like a demented version of a pre-nup…

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
2 months ago

On first thought, for the purpose proposed here, the only remotely sensible solution would be to have your (female) sex partner sign the waiver in person. Very much like a prenup, indeed.

On second thought, a major part of the proposal seems to be that there needs to be a legal push to socially normalize this kind of liability waiver, by mandating it on all women who have sex while choosing to use common, effective contraception methods (however impractical that might be). Because otherwise you wouldn’t be able to find almost any women who’d agree to this kind of bullshit. Especially since you know that most other men are willing to take the risk, as it is.

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
2 months ago

Excluding them from child support obligations (not custody)

Well, that is rather telling again, isn’t it?

Flush your condoms when you’re done.

Oh, your plumber must love you.

Last edited 2 months ago by Battering Lamb
Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
2 months ago

This guy took the time to think through this totally surefire strategy, but he’s not aware that the pill is a hormonal contraceptive. Women don’t take a pill just before — and only before — sex. Twenty pills last some months? No. If he’d bothered to do a 5-second Google search, he’d look slightly less idiotic.

How Are Birth Control Pills Packaged?

You get a set of pills packaged in a thin case. Pill packs containing regular birth control pills have either 21 or 28 pills. Twenty-one-day pill packs contain 21 active pills. Twenty-eight-day pill packs contain 21 active pills and seven inactive (placebo) pills. The pill packs are marked with the days of the week to remind you to take a pill every day. The seven inactive pills in the 28-day pill pack are added so you’re reminded to start a new pill pack after 28 days.

.

https://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-pills

Just one more example of a guy who’s obsessed with women’s bodies and doesn’t give one thought to how our bodies work.

Also, this:

There are women out there who will call you out and say, “Hey, my friend needs some dick. You in or you out?”

Yes, this is a very common scenario. Extremely common. More common than not.

Last edited 2 months ago by Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Mexican Hot Chocolate
Mexican Hot Chocolate
2 months ago

These jokers remind me of anti-vaxxers in the sense that they want all the rights but none of the responsibilities. They want the right to have sex with young, single, and pretty (to their shallow standards) women but none of the responsibility of any children that come along as a result. I imagine most women who end up in bed with one of these assholes will figure out how to get an abortion, but some…

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
2 months ago

Oh, your plumber must love you.

I initially read “flush” as meaning “rinse”, as in destroying the sperm in the condom with water. Again my personal bias showing – for one thing, it doesn’t easily occur to me that people might actually flush condoms down the toilet. For another thing, rinsing a used condom before trashing it is actually my own irrational habit that probably rarely occurs to other people. It’s not related to any “spermjacking” fear but rather my feelings about cleanliness.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
2 months ago

In before anyone compares this to a pre-nup.

Actually, it’s kinda like a demented version of a pre-nup…

AFAIK in Finland you can have a sperm donation contract between the donor and recipient if the sperm is transferred in person, rather than anonymously via sperm bank. I presume it goes something like, “If woman A becomes pregnant during period XY, it is presumed to be within her agreement with man B to have a child without involving B as father, even if B is in fact the biological father. Thus, B may not be recognized as the child’s father under any circumstances.”

This kind of in-person donation can happen with or without medical assistance (usually without), it may or may not involve direct sexual contact (usually not), but I suppose a similar contract could be applied in sexual relationships where pregnancy is in fact unwanted. Like, when the woman absolutely doesn’t want to involve a certain man in her life as a co-parent of any possible child. Or if she really wants to have sex with him and he doesn’t want to be a father.

Manospherians always talk about this in terms of child support money, insinuating it’d be some huge windfall for the woman. They may or may not be aware that extraction of child support is only possible if their paternity has been formally recognized, and then they’d usually have some legal rights to socially associate with the child (and practically the woman, too), even if they happen to an asshat who only uses this association for abuse/bragging purposes, without contributing anything positive to the child’s upbringing or daily care.

AFAIK in Finland a man could theoretically have his paternity recognized without the woman’s consent, even outside of marriage, if biological paternity can be established. Or at least such amendment to law has been recently in process. A sperm donation contract could preclude this, though in my opinion women probably should have the right to refuse recognition of paternity.

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ lumipuna

In England the law is that if you go through ‘official’ channels, then the sperm donor is not regarded as the father; but if you do an informal arrangement then he is.

https://www.gov.uk/legal-rights-for-egg-and-sperm-donors

As to getting recognised in law as a parent; this explains the rules quite succinctly.

https://www.gov.uk/parental-rights-responsibilities/who-has-parental-responsibility

Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
2 months ago

I’m allergic to latex condoms (which is what most condoms are made of) so if I have sex with a guy and we use a condom he’s using these stupid rubber condoms I have to use that tear easier and stretch out so if you get soft in them they just slip off. they caused a lot of problems for me when I was using condoms.

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
2 months ago

I just love the whole idea that it’s common for women to lie about being on birth control, for the purpose of getting pregnant and then getting child support.\s Talk about not understanding how something works, in a practical sense…a woman is pregnant for 9 months. There are the costs of pregnancy, including not being able to work, for however long. Especially in the US, a country without universal health care. But, yeah, getting pregnant out of wedlock is just like hitting the lottery!

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
2 months ago

@Elaine the Witch: I suppose you’ve heard of lambskin condoms. They’re supposed to feel better than latex, but they also don’t protect against certain STDs. I guess vegetarians/vegans would object to them, too. And, they’re expensive.

Nequam
Nequam
2 months ago

My husband and I tried lambskin condoms once when I had to go onto antibiotics and was warned they could interfere with the pill. Now this was back in the late 80s/early 90s so they may have improved since them but we remember two things:

1) They’re oddly baggy (unless they were sized and I didn’t know it), very much resembling sausage casings;

2) There’s a distinct odor of sheep/lanolin, which can be a real moment killer unless you have romantic memories of the state fair.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
2 months ago

1) They’re oddly baggy (unless they were sized and I didn’t know it), very much resembling sausage casings;

Not surprising. That’s what they are – lamb intestines. Made from the upper bowel.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
2 months ago

Dormousing_it:

I just love the whole idea that it’s common for women to lie about being on birth control, for the purpose of getting pregnant and then getting child support.\s Talk about not understanding how something works, in a practical sense…

Sometimes in mainstream culture, I see the notion that women in long term relationships might sabotage their shared birth control* if they really want children (and don’t want or can’t switch to another partner). Or if they think having a child would help “secure” their partner’s commitment**, or if they feel being a STAHM would be the best available job right now***. Maybe once long ago I saw the notion that you might try to get lavish child support by having a child with some super rich man.

However, only manospherians have cooked up the idea that a woman might try to get pregnant with ordinary one night stands/fuckbuddies for child support money. Including men who want to take reasonable precautions, like actually using a condom. Manospherians imagine far-fetched scenarios about “spermjacking”, and get terribly hung up over the fact that law doesn’t absolve them from responsibility in this hypothetical scenario where they act responsibly and the woman then maliciously sabotages their contraception. Many of these guys are probably very young and/or have no concept of adult relationships. However, you can bet some of those fueling this paranoia are deadbeat dads who absolutely want to negligently or deliberately impregnate women and get away with it.

*Fairly easy, if the man already taken the position of not worrying about birth control at all, leaving it entirely to the woman, as often happens.

**This doesn’t usually work well, everyone says.

***My friend (an older college educated woman) claimed these are usually very young, uneducated women who have very poor career prospects and a rosy view of motherhood.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
2 months ago

Two big issues with this. Hormonal birth control is very effective when taken correctly, but it is not 100% There’s also human error, such as forgetting a dose or two and there’s drug interactions, including with unregulated supplements that can reduce its effectiveness. The idea that someone who says they’re on the pill and then becomes pregnant must have been lying to get child support is absurd.

The other big issue is that child support is for the child, not for the custodial parent. Punishing the kid because the pregnancy was unintended is stupid. Typical MRA nonsense though, they whine and complain about mothers getting custody more often, but it’s pretty clear MRAs don’t get custody not because they’re men, but because they don’t actually give a shit about the kids. They just see custody disputes as a competition to win against “bitches.”

I highly support these guys insisting on condom use though. That part is good.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
2 months ago

If this guy is so worried, why not just have his potential partners sign the waiver directly? That way, they’ll know up front exactly who he is, and it will filter out all women who would prefer not to be involved in any reproductive capacity with a whiny, paranoid deadbeat. Which hopefully is close to 100%.

 “BuT iM aLlErGiC tO cOnDoMs!”

Is anyone else tired of this 4chan thing of using mixed case ransom-note letters to make an opponent sound deranged, illiterate, and easily dismissed? It’s not just annoying, it’s ableist as hell.

Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
2 months ago

@Dormousing_it

I haven’t actually heard of lambskin condoms. I mean which is reasonable, I haven’t been having sex for very long, only like the last 4 or 5 years or so. my husband and I don’t use condoms at all now unless we have another partner in our sex lives. the fear of sti’s is not something that’s in my life anymore. Which I’m glad for because I find condoms really gross. I’m a big supporter of everyone using them and I would use them if needed, but they cause me so many problems. there is the latex things, but then I am also allergic to a lot of different sexual lubricants so pre lubed condoms are out. and this might just be me, but I am really prone to getting UTIs. I think condoms make it easier for me to get a UTI, because the times i did use them I got really bad ones I needed medication for. I get UTIs sometimes with sex from my husband but I can take care of those with home remedies.

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
2 months ago

@Lumipuna: I know of a case where a man was married with 2 children, and he didn’t want any more kids. His wife had other ideas. She purposely got pregnant, without letting him know she had stopped taking the pill. This is him telling me the story, BTW, but I believe it. I don’t blame him for being angry. He was the sole breadwinner in the family.

I know it happens at times. Like you said, it’s a long shot with a casual sexual relatIonship. A manospherian fantasy.

.45
.45
2 months ago

I have lived a sheltered life, but it still says something that in more than thirty years on this planet, I only personally know one young woman whom I suspect got pregnant “accidentally” on purpose. So, yeah “pretty common” indeed.

(She was from a messed up household, suffered from depression, and seemed to have basically nobody in her life, lousy relationship with her mother, no real friends, boyfriend was cheating on her… I think she was desperate to get some kind of attention or meaning in her life and legitimately thought a baby might help. Honestly, so many people thought she was stupid and useless, but I felt so sorry for her.)

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
2 months ago

@Lumipuna

Manospherians imagine far-fetched scenarios about “spermjacking”, and get terribly hung up over the fact that law doesn’t absolve them from responsibility in this hypothetical scenario where they act responsibly and the woman then maliciously sabotages their contraception. Many of these guys are probably very young and/or have no concept of adult relationships.

There’s also their transactional, zero-sum view of relationships to consider here. In that view, it would make sense that each side might try to cheat the other in some way.

It’s a sad, diminished, empty view they have.

GSS ex-noob
GSS ex-noob
2 months ago

I can personally recommend lambskin condoms. Except I think they’re not as good at preventing diseases as the other types, or at least they weren’t when I used them. That wasn’t a problem for us, but I’m sure Chad Thundercocks like these guys (LOL) should consider that.

Natsume
Natsume
2 months ago

@Lumipuna

It’s not surprising at all to hear about men flushing used condoms down the toilet. If you ever take a tour of, or watch a documentary about water treatment facilities it comes up a lot. Same goes for flushing period pads, or tampons down the toilet after use. It’s actually a pretty serious problem and its illegal most places to do such things.

Ninja Socialist
Ninja Socialist
2 months ago

I have a sneaking suspicion that these are the kinds of guys who will make any excuse to get out of wearing a condom.

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
2 months ago

Everyone seems to be missing that he also argued (out of fairness, I guess) that bepenised people buying condoms must also sign a waiver relinquishing claims of child support.

personalpest
personalpest
2 months ago

Have any of these men considered getting a vasectomy?

Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
2 months ago

Condom ‘stealthing’ is a vile practice. California is right to ban it

Moira Donegan

Twelve per cent of young women have experienced stealthing – and 10% of young men have perpetrated it. The law is finally catching up

She told him a condom was “non-negotiable,” and that if he would rather not use one, she would leave. The young woman, identified as “Sara” in a 2017 study, describes the encounter, saying, “I set a boundary. I was very explicit.” Yet she then discovered that her partner, a man she’d been seeing for a couple of weeks, had secretly removed the condom during sex.

“I ended up talking to him about it later,” Sara told the study’s author, the feminist civil rights attorney Alexandra Brodsky. “He told me, ‘Don’t worry about it, trust me.’ That stuck with me, because he’d literally proven himself to be unworthy of my trust.”. . .

. . . In Brodsky’s study, a review of online communities for stealthing practitioners supports the notion that non-consensual condom removal by heterosexual men is motivated by misogynist disdain; the men, quoted at length, spoke of their own contempt for women and scorn for their partners’ desire for a condom in terms that I will not repeat here.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/14/condom-stealthing-california-ban

rzs
rzs
2 months ago

OT but oh my GOD this article is hilarious and jaw dropping and the comments are even wilder… I can’t even!!

yes, it’s Breitbart, what a surprise!

Last edited 2 months ago by rzs
Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

This is interesting; and sort of related.

A study into what people have sought in a marriage partner over time.

Basically they did an analysis of marriage adverts and keywords.

Now I’m not sure exactly how representative a sample that is. I believe even today in the age of Tinder and the like, most people still meet partners through things like mutual friends and shared activities. That must have been even moreso back in the day.

But if anyone brings up ‘gold digging’ or hypergamy then it does at least provide some support for debunking that. See here for example:

“(Some other researchers) have argued that, towards the late 1960s, marriage was increasingly based on the notion of companionship and love, and that individuals increasingly sought partners with whom they could share intimacy rather than partners that could provide financial assistance. The trends observed in the matrimonial ads and their timings are consistent with this interpretation. This suggests that the drivers of mate preferences are to be sought out in the determinants of the transformations occurring in the late 1960s, such as the rising participation of women in the labor market, the legalization of birth control methods, and a shift in attitudes. These factors appear to be more correlated to the evolution of mate preferences than economic booms and busts, wars, and the development of the Welfare State, which may nonetheless have been a prerequisite for the changes occurring in the late 1960s/1970s.”

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-economic-history/article/from-material-to-nonmaterial-needs-the-evolution-of-mate-preferences-through-the-twentieth-century-in-france/D6E8E7FE777795465012C896BDC06AD2#

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ rzs

That was interesting; cheers.

It’s funny, back in the early days of covid, a billion years ago, I was chatting to some USian friends about reverse psychology. The idea being that, in order to boost vaccine uptake in the red states, the CDC should leak a fake email as if it was from the DNC saying something like “Mwahaha, if we can trick Republican voters into not taking the vaccine the resulting deaths should be enough to swing the vote in key states!”

So maybe Howard is on to us?

magnesium
magnesium
2 months ago

It’s 2021 and these dweebs are still convinced that the average child support payment not only pays for the total expenses of a child, but includes enough leftover to make a custodial parent rich. Amazing.

Karalora
Karalora
2 months ago

Even for its supposed purpose, this proposal is ass-backwards. gonewildman5 does not seem to consider that women are perfectly capable of lying about being on birth control without ever having bought any to begin with. No purchase = no waiver = dude is still on the hook for child support.

Sheila Crosby
Sheila Crosby
2 months ago

Does anyone know of any research on the relative frequency of sperm-jacking vs stealthing? Because I seriously doubt that sperm-jacking is more common.

And I notice he’s assuming that the only reason that birth control would fail is deliberate sabotage.

Ann Hatzakis
Ann Hatzakis
2 months ago

I’m one of those women who are allergic to latex and KNOW there are non-latex condoms and have had men wear them with me

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
2 months ago

Rzs,

Conservatives aren’t self aware enough, apparently to understand that they should be embarrassed to be willing to kill themselves just to own the libs. It’s such a self own for them to be advertising how easily manipulated, self-destructive and childish they are.

GSS ex-noob
GSS ex-noob
2 months ago

@Ann Hatzakis: that’s why I used them. A latex allergy (and a worse one to the related mango, curse its tropical fruity goodness). But being a person who will eat sheep, I had no moral qualms about using them as condoms.

@personalpest: That’s what I always wonder too. That way they could guarantee they’d never get any women pregnant. No worries about child support, ever! “Problem” solved!

And frankly, keeping these “men” from having anything to do with children is a great idea. Can you imagine being some kid who has to get by with not enough money because you have a deadbeat dad, or a child who has to have contact with one of these hateful bozos as their father? Shudder.

Katherine the Adequate
Katherine the Adequate
2 months ago

I forgive “LegalRights'” for the shitty format, but not the shitty content.

Ceredwyn Ealanta
Ceredwyn Ealanta
2 months ago

I really wish I could find the research paper I’d read a while back, but it was into partners who’d interfered with birth control in order to become parents. And slightly more men did it (poking holes in condoms, microwaving….pills? I don’t even know if that would work) than women.

LollyPop
LollyPop
2 months ago

@Sheila Crosby

Sorry to jump into the thread late but I’m pretty certain the idea of sperm jacking comes entirely from this one article by Liz Jones (it’s certainly the only thing I’ve ever seen cited as “proof” of the practice in the manosphere).

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2056875/Liz-Jones-baby-craving-drove-steal-husbands-sperm-ultimate-deception.html

Liz Jones is obviously a deeply strange and unpleasant person but given her columnist style was to write ridiculous and personally unflattering things (which I’m convinced the Daily Mail loved because it paints women so badly), I wouldn’t be surprised if this was made up in a desperate attempt at notoriety. Her career certainly flagged when people got bored of her schtick.

(edited to add that even this example shows a woman in a long term relationship rather than just trying to fall pregnant with whatever random they meet, which echoes what people were saying earlier.)

Last edited 2 months ago by LollyPop
clingfoil
clingfoil
2 months ago

Not quite a necro, so… Just wanted to add that there are plenty of latex-free condoms other than glorified sausage skins (at least here in UK). I remember ages ago them being made from polyurethane which made a constant crackling sound, but nowadays they’re polyisoprene and don’t have that problem.

rzs
rzs
2 months ago

@Alan Robershaw – they’ve talked themselves into reverse psychology! 🤣🤣🤣 a new low, but maybe it will actually work?

@weirwoodtreehugger – agreed. the super right wing is projecting again, because this is how they would think, what they think would work on THEM! I mean srsly? I don’t think people actually want them to die. at least, I don’t. I want them to get the fucking vaccine so they don’t take anyone else with them when they catch it!!

Last edited 2 months ago by rzs
Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ rzs

Indeed!

Ryan
Ryan
2 months ago

I haven’t had a chance to read all the comments here, but I’m sure most people here must have noticed the completely illogical non-sequitar of what he’s saying.
If we except his rather dubious claim that “lying about being on birth control to get get pregnant for child support is pretty common”, how does it then follow that we should force women are who are legitimately taking steps to prevent an unwanted by using birth control to sign waivers making them solely financially responsible for the pregnancy caused by two people who chose to have sex?
Is he saying that we should punish women who are being honest and responsible as revenge for all those supposed women out there who are tricking men into getting them pregnant?

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
2 months ago

Is he saying that we should punish women who are being honest and responsible as revenge for all those supposed women out there who are tricking men into getting them pregnant?

But of course.

Jess
Jess
2 months ago

Omfg do NOT flush condoms, you should be fined by the water department.