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Another fucking incel mass shooter: Plymouth (UK) man kills five, including his mother and a 3-year-old girl, in shotgun rampage

Maxine Davison: Mother of the killer, and his first victim

Jake Davison, who shot five people dead in a Thursday night shotgun spree before turning the gun on himself, didn’t leave behind a manifesto.

The 22-year-old Plymouth (UK) virgin was more of a YouTube guy, posting assorted rants on the site bemoaning his life and offering his opinions on women (cruel and picky but not, he thought, very smart) and his future prospects (not good, he was sure; he felt old and ugly and washed up at the ripe old age of 22).

He scattered his opinions across Facebook and Reddit as well, launching into tirades against his mother, whom he called “vile” and “abusive.” (All of these accounts have been shut down as of this writing, but you can find traces of what he said in the press coverage of his murder spree; meanwhile some of his videos have been saved and reposted on the Incels.is forum.)

His mother was the first person he shot in his murder spree; in the end he killed two women, two men and, most horrifically, one three-year-old girl.

Most of Davison’s rants — whether about women or his own seemingly worsening life — could almost have been pasted word for word from incel discussion forums. He may have been fervent in his beliefs, but he wasn’t original.

He lamented that he had missed the joys of teenage romance, something that he would never be able to recapture.

“Let’s say I get with a woman my age,” he declared.

She’s had a million relationships. Likely been destroyed and broken and torn apart by a fucking Chad. She’s probably completely incapable of loving anyone like she did when she was 16, 17, 15, when she first got with that fucking Chad.

This weird glorification of teenage love (and teenage girls) is common among incels. (I’ve written about this in a number of posts, and will elaborate on Davison’s obsession in a future post.) It’s not clear how Davison was able to reconcile his fantasies of underage sex with his Qanon-style belief that the government is full of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who need to be put down. Davison was not only an incel but was also something of a Trump-worshipper and gun fanatic who dreamed of moving to the US some day, so it’s not all the shocking to see QAnon-ish conspiracy theories mixed up in his brain with thoughts of Chad and Stacey.

But if we set aside his Trumpian enthusiasm — fairly atypical for incels who are generally not very political –most of what he set forth in his posts and videos was standard issue incel. The biggest difference I can see between Davison and your typical incel is that he actually carried out his fantasy of a Elliot Rodger style “day of retribution.”

Despite his weight worries (he was a bit plump) and his belief that he was ugly and getting uglier, Davison was a fairly typical-looking young man, a sort of Seth Rogan-esque stoner dude who might have had a chance with women had he only trimmed his beard a little more often. It would have helped a lot more if he hadn’t been quite so angry and misogynistic and self-loathing; like most incels, Davison blamed his looks for his lack of success with women, though the real problem was all the poisonous bullshit stuffed in his head.

The most energetic coverage of the shooting spree comes in the British tabloids — among them The Sun, which described incels as “a sinister death cult of miserable, sex-starved loners linked to a string of terror-style attacks.”

A little over-the-top, but … true.

Davison is picking up fans on Incels.is, with some comparing him positively with Elliot Rodger, the original mass-killing Incel “saint.”

“What a hero,” wrote MisterMeme. “I hope he is in heaven rn.”

“We were past overdue for a new ER, [Elliot Rodger]” added Metabuxx.

“Yes I can say it this time,” Lookscel cried out.

ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

A new ER 

“It was a long drought but finally it’s ER season again,” added CrackingYs happily.

Over on The Black Pill Club, another incel hangout, one especially edgy commenter wrote that he had “read that a 5 year old whore is among the dead which is very pleasing to hear.” (Actually, she was three years old, which is even worse.)

That’s about all I can take on this right now. I will be back, probably tomorrow, with more thoughts on incel obsessions with “teenage love.”

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Full Metal Ox
1 month ago

@Victorious Parasol:

In this episode, Jonathan (he’s the therapist of the pair) points out that Jacob in Twilight is a fictional example of incel culture. Not a comparison I would’ve thought of, but I always enjoy people thoughtfully discussing pop culture.

And I seem to recall that Jacob winds up getting an imprinted gift-wrapped Stacy fresh out of the womb—which is the logical conclusion of the ever-dwindling Sell-By Date of Feminine Purity.

Last edited 1 month ago by Full Metal Ox
Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
1 month ago

@Full Metal Ox

Yup. As commenters on that video have pointed out, “imprinting” in the Twilight verse sounds an awful lot like “grooming,” of the especially squicky variety since the girls in question are either toddlers or babies when imprinting happens, and the men are often 7 to 10 years older (if not more).

Both Jonathan and Alan are dads as well as being non-toxic men. It’s so refreshing to see them react to the more obnoxious ideas in the Twilight series.

Howard
Howard
1 month ago

I’ve read this blog for a while and never commented before but some of the discussion here makes me want to. The fact is that some men just aren’t go to be considered attractive no matter what they do. That doesn’t give them an excuse to kill as that’s clearly wrong and I’m not saying incel killers are ok. But feminists talk all about body positivity but they are the ones who say that even if a man is of good character and nice to the women around him it’s still ok that he is rejected all the time. So how is that right. One commenter on here is even blatant that she only likes tall men. We can help what height we are. Maybe we want to be part of a community like hers too but we never get the chance because of impossible standards. No wonder some feel like incels. And no before you all come down on me I don’t think anyone killing anyone is ok.

Howard
Howard
1 month ago

Meant we can’t help what height we are.

kupo
kupo
1 month ago

The fact is that some men just aren’t go to be considered attractive no matter what they do.

That’s simply not true because physical attraction varies so greatly from one person to the next as far as what each person is into and for a lot of people doesn’t even exist. And for some people physical attraction isn’t a factor in picking sexual or romantic partners.

But feminists talk all about body positivity but they are the ones who say that even if a man is of good character and nice to the women around him it’s still ok that he is rejected all the time.

Yes of course it’s okay for women to reject men for any reason. Body positivity isn’t about everyone needing to find everyone else attractive, it’s about a combination of self-image and not tearing people down for their looks (it’s also not really a great thing as it distracts from more important issues but that’s a different topic).

People are allowed to have different tastes. I love Brussels sprouts. Could eat a pound in a sitting if it wasn’t bad for my health (stupid goitrogens). Many people don’t.

When I was on dating apps, many people passed me up as I’m not to most people’s taste. That’s fine. They don’t have to find me attractive! And I don’t have to find them attractive! There’s no hypocrisy in any of that.

Maybe we want to be part of a community like hers too but we never get the chance because of impossible standards.

It’s not impossible standards for one person to find tall people attractive. Women are not a monolith. One woman has stated her preference for tall men. Other women have preferences for short men. Still others have no height preferences at all. Some have no preferences for men at all! What exactly is the problem that you see, here? What are the impossible standards? That women, much like men and nonbinary folks, have individual tastes and make choices about who they partner with based on their own personal tastes?

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
1 month ago

Hi, Howard! Welcome.

Since you asked….

The fact is that some men just aren’t go to be considered attractive no matter what they do. That doesn’t give them an excuse to kill as that’s clearly wrong and I’m not saying incel killers are ok. But feminists talk all about body positivity but they are the ones who say that even if a man is of good character and nice to the women around him it’s still ok that he is rejected all the time. So how is that right.

I’d have an easier time with your first sentence if you’d said “some people just aren’t going to be attractive no matter what they do.” Because it is a truth universally acknowledged that women are also judged by how attractive they are or are not. Feminists talk about body positivity because women didn’t want to be judged solely on their looks (still working on that!) and it’s not fair to be judged so shallowly no matter what gender you are or what your sexual orientation is. It’s still okay if you’re rejected all the time because your value as a person is not limited to how many people want to date you.

One commenter on here is even blatant that she only likes tall men. We [can’t] help what height we are. Maybe we want to be part of a community like hers too but we never get the chance because of impossible standards. No wonder some feel like incels. And no before you all come down on me I don’t think anyone killing anyone is ok.

I also am a woman who prefers tall men, and am happily married to a man who is 6 ft 5. Guess what? I actually first fell in love with him because of his voice and his kindness … because we met on IRC, back when that was a thing. By the time we actually met in person, we already knew that we were interested in a long-term relationship, though we were still figuring out what that meant. His physical attributes that happen to push my buttons (his height, his hair color, his eye color) were just bonus features that added to his sweetness, his generosity of spirit, his sense of humor, his intelligence, and as stated earlier his kindness.

He could go bald, lose his eyes, and become a double amputee and I’d still love him because over our years together he treats me like a person, then a princess, then a goddess, then a person again, in a glorious neverending cycle. Because we work at it. Because we value each other and our relationship. Because we see each other as people. Because my happiness is grounded in his happiness and vice versa.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

kupo and VictoriousParasol, ever brilliant and articulate, explain it more effectively than I could and with far more patience than I would have for gross nonsense like this.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
1 month ago

The fact is that some men just aren’t go to be considered attractive no matter what they do.

Well. This lacks context. The argument could be made that women over six feet tall are inherently unattractive bc of social norms that women should be shorter than our partners. Or women with large feet, or who have a persistent moustache they have to really keep on to keep it gone. But the reality of physical attraction is that what pushes your buttons won’t push mine and so forth.

Men you think are unattractive actually are attractive to the right people. I mean for goddess’ sake there’s people who like beards and that is inherently incomprehensible to me.

But feminists talk all about body positivity but they are the ones who say that even if a man is of good character and nice to the women around him it’s still ok that he is rejected all the time. So how is that right.

Because not judging someone or being mean to them about their body isn’t the same as being expected to fuck people you feel nothing for?

Being kind or polite to someone isn’t the same as wanting to sleep with them or signaling that you want to sleep with them.

I mean I get it – we were all raised on stories where men are just kind of awarded a hot woman to sleep with as a sort of afterthought or as some kind of sick “reward” for accomplishing something. While that may seem idyllic to men, it has always been an element of horror for women – the idea that we don’t get to choose, that we just kind of have to go with some man just because. But that’s not how the world works – even back when we were sitting on the floor in front of the family TV learning these stories or cuddled up next to mom while she read to us that wasn’t how the world worked.

It’s perfectly right for me to say no to someone – a man, a woman, an enby – who I feel nothing sexual or romantic for. It’s perfectly right for me to say no even if I feel something for them. It’s perfectly right for me to say no whether or not I have a reason and whether or not I disclose that reason.

In much the same way, it’s perfectly right for you to say no to sex.

A man being a good person doesn’t make it not right for people around him not to want to sleep with him – their reasons are their reasons. And if he were only being a good person because he wanted sex, well that’s more obvious than men tend to think it is. Someone who’s doing that typically stops being a decent person the second they get what they want, so there’s a good reason there not to sleep with someone who’s only pretending to be kind so they get laid.

One commenter on here is even blatant that she only likes tall men.

One commenter. There are more than three billion women in the world, of all kinds of heights, who like all kinds of different things.

For me, I generally don’t like men. But when I do, height isn’t a factor for me – I’m almost certainly going to be taller than him regardless and the degree to which he is short relative to me isn’t something I find worth importance.

There, you have a counterpoint – one commenter only likes tall men, another commenter doesn’t care bc she’s so tall her partners (be they men or not) will almost always be shorter.

Maybe we want to be part of a community like hers too but we never get the chance because of impossible standards.

Like hers, or specifically hers?

Relax. Despite what goes around in various internet echo chambers, women are people. Being people, every one of us has different likes, dislikes, lines that cannot be crossed, values, politics…

I think you’re getting hung up on this one woman you’ve never met living a lifestyle you find glamorous and exciting, and you seem to have forgotten that she is far from the only woman who lives the way she does. So…

Just relax. Relationships and dating aren’t easy for anyone. So it helps to take a deep breath and just keep putting one foot in front of the other.

Howard
Howard
1 month ago

kupo, Victorious Parasol and IgnoreSandra, thank you for the replies. I did not think of some of what you say before. I probably should think about all that more.

What I am trying to say though is this. If I am a good person, just because I don’t look a certain way, shouldn’t I be given a chance?

Suppose I see a girl I really like. Why should she just say she is not interested because of how I look? Maybe if she gives me a chance she will find she likes me. Maybe she will for reasons like Victorious Parasol says makes hercare for her husband.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved, I just want to say I think how you describe yourself and what you do is really something I would like. Maybe you should give guys like me a chance sometime. Even though I am not that tall and don’t look like a jock.

SpecialFFrog
SpecialFFrog
1 month ago

@Howard: There is a big difference between “people should not be judged by their looks and should be given a chance and “I should be entitled to be given a chance by someone because I am interested in them.”

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
1 month ago

@Howard

Okay, let’s unpack that. What do you mean by “give me a chance”?

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@Howard

I think how you describe yourself and what you do is really something I would like.

I am sure that it is and I also absolutely do not care.

Maybe you should give guys like me a chance sometime.

NO!!!

Even though I am not that tall and don’t look like a jock

THIS rules you out right away.

You are also gross and creepy. If you were not I might talk to you here on a friendly basis *maybe* because I protect my privacy and anonymity here and feel comfortable but even so I already know enough to know that no matter what you want I am NOT interested and would NOT find you attractive.

I am not sorry and if you are heartbroken and disappointed that makes me quite happy.

Last edited 1 month ago by StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
1 month ago

If I am a good person, just because I don’t look a certain way, shouldn’t I be given a chance?

Should you? We’re getting into ethics and philosophy here.

I don’t know, really. I don’t know what should be.

What I know is this: It should never be that I or anyone else is obligated to date someone we don’t want to regardless of our reasoning. Even if it’s a reason that I think is irrelevant or foolish, it could be really important to the other person.

And even if there’s no reason. Sometimes people just don’t get along, even if you really want them to. This isn’t a failure or an injustice, it’s just a fact of life.

What I know is this: It should never be that I or anyone else is obligated to sleep with someone we don’t want to regardless of our reasoning. Even if it’s a reason that I think is irrelevant or foolish, the fact the other person has a reason means they wouldn’t be enjoying the interaction.

Even if there’s no reason, sex is a fun thing people can do together. Saying no to sex should have the same implication as not wanting to play Clue together tonight.

Suppose I see a girl I really like. Why should she just say she is not interested because of how I look? Maybe if she gives me a chance she will find she likes me.

Well, because she’s an adult person who can make her own decisions. It may be that she would like you if she spent some time with you. It may also not be. She knows herself better than anyone else will ever know her, so she’s in the best place to know if she can come to like someone she doesn’t find aesthetically appealing, if she’s willing to try, if she’s in the right life-space for a relationship at all…

And maybe she’s right about herself, or maybe she isn’t. But it still should be her choice who she’s with.

Of course, that requires accepting the ethical idea that individuals have a right to a certain freedom of choice and action to the greatest degree practical. If you don’t accept this idea, what I just said will seem like nonsense to you, but at that point there’s no conversation to be had – there will be a fundamental moral divide between us that cannot be reconciled.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

@Howard

What I am trying to say though is this. If I am a good person, just because I don’t look a certain way, shouldn’t I be given a chance?

No.

Let me put this simple for you. You are a good person because it’s the right fucking thing to do. That’s it. No sex/relationship shit involved.
If someone wants to give you a chance, that’s entirely, 100% their call. Not yours, not fate, not the stars aligning, not their family, not the damned priest – just them. Exactly the same as it is 100% your call if you give someone a chance.

.45
.45
1 month ago

@ Howard

Just for the record, I am six foot tall, six foot one in my old work shoes. This has been a topic of conversation with many women, but has never magically gotten me anywhere in it of itself. Just saying.

kupo
kupo
1 month ago

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved, I just want to say I think how you describe yourself and what you do is really something I would like. Maybe you should give guys like me a chance sometime. Even though I am not that tall and don’t look like a jock.

This is really fucking gross. I was going to respond to the rest of your post until I got to this part. Stop being a disgusting creep.

Last edited 1 month ago by kupo
Howard
Howard
1 month ago

Victorious Parasol,

When I save give me a chance for one thing this. If I give someone a compliment she might take it kindly. I believe just here on this blog I have been very polite and respectful. You all making replies are explaining things kindly. You are giving me a lot to think about. StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved is the only one who is really cold. And she was the one I complimented. I just think she sounds really beautiful with all the stuff she does.
Maybe she could at least write kindly. I took the time to read all her comments from the other posts.

contrapangloss
contrapangloss
1 month ago

Goodness sakes, Howard.

Women are not a collective hive mind who all find the same things attractive. Being a nice person, or a good person, does not entitle you to sexual attention from any singular woman.

Just like me being a generally nice person (in person) doesn’t entitle me to sexual attention from any singular dude (or woman, or enby).

Also, maybe rethink that nice guy label you’re giving yourself?

Because what I saw you do here was see clearly written boundaries about Stacy’s interests, and then you decided to ignore them completely and proposition her.

Ignoring boundaries is not a thing good people do when they’re in the middle of being a good person.

Look, I know it’s rough to feel lonely and unwanted. It’s rough to not feel like you even come close to minimum attractiveness standards.

I get it. It sucks. Not a great feeling. I’m ace, but I still know what feeling unattractive and isolated feels like. It sucks.

But we don’t get to demand other people cater to us, because of it. We don’t get to demand other people give us a chance.

We just get to try and be as good as we can be, find things that make us happy, and hopefully make a few friends along the way. And if you make anything more than friends?

It’s not because you deserved it because you finally hit the niceness quota.

It’s because you finally bumped into a person who bumped into you and you both thought “hm, I think I like this one”.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
1 month ago

@Howard

Hi.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved is the only one who is really cold. And she was the one I complimented. I just think she sounds really beautiful with all the stuff she does.

Maybe she could at least write kindly. I took the time to read all her comments from the other posts.

Shut up. She owes you nothing, no matter what you say or do.

You seem pretty determined to overrule her individual right to speak with whom she chooses and in the manner which she chooses. It seems likely we have a fundamental moral divide.

contrapangloss
contrapangloss
1 month ago

Also, side note for the record:

Compliments are not always compliments. Like, when someone catcalls with a “hey pretty lady” it isn’t usually a compliment.

It’s threatening and boundary crossing, and it’s annoying.

So, maybe this can be a learning experience?

Don’t come at someone who’s already indicated their complete disinterest. Just don’t.

And don’t be surprised when people enforce their boundaries.

This whole “But she was so mean and all I said was she was pretty” deal you’ve got going? That’s just ugly. Stop it.

Last edited 1 month ago by contrapangloss
kupo
kupo
1 month ago

@Howard

You did not compliment her. You were not kind to her. You targeted her and were aggressive to her and made assumptions about her, all with the thin veneer of plausible deniability that we can all see through. You know why we can see through it? Because we all know this abuse tactic. You’re not the first one to come in here and try it and you won’t be the last. You are not a nice guy. Period.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

I am so angry. I will not address Entitled Gross Creep directly but will call him that because that is what he deserves.

I unfortunately know this type all too well from past experiences. Another Entitled Gross Creep all obsessed with the little blonde girl in the leotard with the bullwhip standing on that little platform thing over there, shouting orders to those guys *she chose* and not him. “All about what my entitled attitude…not what makes her happy.”

No! It is about me.

If people are doing what they want in consensual sexual intimacy nobody else gets to question or complain ever.

All the usual commenters here said it clearly and carefully giving Entitled Gross Creep more careful patience than he deserves. What he deserves is contempt.

And I take great pride in reinforcing to Entitled Gross Creep that even if he were not entirely gross and creepy no matter what else he is *not tall enough to be in my stable* I hope he reads this and is miserable. What *he* wants does not matter. Choice is absolute.

GSS ex-noob
GSS ex-noob
1 month ago

Well, that didn’t take long. For Entitled Gross Creep to show his true colors.

He could win the lottery to be rich, get complete plastic surgery to be tall and handsome and all that, and he still wouldn’t be worth dating because none of that would cure him of being an asshole.

.45
.45
1 month ago

@ StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved

I feel like I started all this. Sorry.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@GSS ex-noob

You are right but what exposes his grossness and disrespect even more is that if he really read my comments on here, even considering that for privacy’s sake I keep some elements vague, he would at least know that my sexual relationships definitely don’t include a “dating” relationship according to the usual use of the word. I’m pretty sure though that he didn’t.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@ .45

You apologized when I said you should. No more need be said.

I have commented before about what I do in life and what I prefer on this blog when relevant to the topic of David’s posts or on open threads.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

I despise NiceGuys so much. The only thing I like is their *tears*.

Howard
Howard
1 month ago

I apologize to everyone for saying that stuff earlier that I shouldn’t have. I did read what everybody responded and I am sorry.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

Entitled Gross Creep who just posted is still and always will deserve only contempt.

I am going to make extra effort to look amazing tomorrow and am planning an awesome and amazing outfit to celebrate his tears.

Sinkable John, 100% resunk with fresh ingredients
Sinkable John, 100% resunk with fresh ingredients
1 month ago

@Howard

My dude, I’m gonna take the charitable approach because everything else I wanted to say has already been said. Doesn’t mean I don’t think you aren’t exactly the Entitled Gross Creep the others have been calling you, you definitely are, but by my optimistic estimate there’s a 0.05% chance you might actually learn from what just happened here and grow the fuck out of it. Those odds may improve drastically if you can actually listen and take notes. So far you haven’t, but hey, y’never know !

Make no mistake, your looks have nothing to do with how unattractive you are. And before you jump on to your next point, I will add that your looks aren’t even the reason you turned out morally unattractive. In fact, you’d be even worse if you were the exact shade of physically “attractive” that you want to be. In fact I would be willing to gamble the price of a beer that you’re actually conventionally attractive and just feel the need to blame your lack of success on something that you have no control on, rather than admit that your gross attitude is why people find you gross. That’s how it usually goes with Incels and “Nice Guys”.

But I said I’d be charitable, so I’m gonna give you some life advice.

Stop thinking about sex or relationships. Stop making them your goal. “Ascending” would not make you any happier. What you very obviously need is friends. Better friends than the ones you may have right now – if you have people in your life who agree with those horrendous views of yours, you need to ditch them and move on. If you have people in your life who don’t agree but still put up with your sorry ass, go find them and apologize for acting like a fucking asshole. If there’s people who gave up on you because of that attitude, leave them the fuck alone, you already burned that bridge. Build a real social life. Talk to people whether you find them attractive or not, and if you do find them attractive, DO NOT make that the reason you talk to them. Make. Some. Friends. Judge them solely on the content of their character and forget about your damn boner for just a second. I’m not even saying you must not find them attractive, I’m saying you need to make yourself a good friend before you even think about becoming a good date. Then if you find those friends attractive, you can let them know somewhere down the line, while being ready for rejection, and ready to keep being a good friend even after rejection happens.

And none of what I just said excludes what the others have said, everything you judged Stacey on revealed so much more about yourself than it did about her. Drop that attitude, drop the beliefs that caused that attitude, and for fuck’s sake leave her alone because every single time you opened your mouth so far you gave her more reasons to react the way she did. And I might personally find that extremely entertaining to watch, but you obviously don’t, so maybe stop handing her the stick you think she’s beating you with.

Build a real social circle and I absolutely guarantee that the rest will come naturally at one point or another. Here’s a little secret about attraction : our brains are wired in a very strange way, and it’s very common to find someone physically unattractive up until the point you get to know them more. Once your mind starts finding someone attractive, your eyes tend to follow suit, and “ugly” becomes “beautiful” even on the physical front. And I said it’s strange, but it’s really not, and I guarantee you’ve already experienced it before – maybe not necessarily with people, it also works with pretty much everything else. And it works both ways : be a better person and people will find you more attractive, give “unattractive” people a chance and you will find they start looking better the moment they open their mouth and say something beautiful. And it also works in reverse, which if you’ve been paying attention is definitely what happened with you here – you made yourself look extremely ugly with that attitude, and I guarantee it’s also what happened every other time you were rejected.

But again, that should NOT be the reason you go out and make yourself approachable. You should do it for the sake of being a good person, and forget about the “reward”. If only because if you do it for said reward, well you’re not really a good person, and make no mistake, people can and WILL find you out no matter how well you think you’re hiding it.

As a very dear friend of mine says : as a general rule, assume you’re way more transparent than you think you are. Your true motivation will always transpire, and the only thing you can do about that is make general compassion your true motivation.

Lastly, if I were you I’d stop trying with this community, you’ve kind of worn out everyone’s patience at this point, including mine – just because I took the time to drop you a wall o’text of life advice doesn’t mean I got the energy in me for another, so read it very carefully and take notes, then go and take that knowledge out into the real world. Don’t assume any compassion or advice we offered you was for your own benefit, there are others lurking who need that information if only so they can deal with the trolls in their own lives, and we do it for them first and foremost.

@Stacey

Holy crap, last time we talked you mentionned that this happens to you a lot, and you weren’t false-advertising 😀

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
1 month ago

Sinkable John has written pretty much what I would’ve done this morning, but he said it better.

I will add … @Howard, when you say “give me a chance” and talk about what that means, it does sound like “give me a chance” translates to “give me what I want.” Women, like a lot of other people, aren’t always that transactional. Edit: And to labor the point, women aren’t dolls. They want what they want, and it isn’t always the same from woman to woman. No gender is a monolith.

I strongly second Sinkable John’s suggestions about making some friends, and focusing on friendship alone. When Mr. Parasol first moved here from his hometown, he was away from his family and from friends he’d known since grade school. But he didn’t want to stay lonely. He joined a board gamer’s group (he plays Monopoly so well I refuse to play against him) and made some friends because of that shared hobby. He even dated a couple of women he met that way. None of them were me, but I’ve met them and they all told me how happy they were he’d found the partner who was right for him, because they cared for him as a person even though they weren’t a good match for anything long-term.

What that group of friends did for him was help him feel less lonely and gave him a way to spend time with people in a semi-structured setting. It helped him avoid the trap of growing bitter and resentful because the world wasn’t nicer to him.

Last edited 1 month ago by Victorious Parasol
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ howard

I don’t want this to look like a pile-on. People have already made all the relevant points very well. But I just want to add this. It’s not a dig; it’s meant as a bit of advice. So you can avoid such pushbacks in future. Assuming you heed it of course.

Professionals in close protection talk about something called ‘pre incident indicators’; but that’s just fancy talk for what the rest of us call ‘red flags’.

Here’s one of them:

  • Typecasting. An insult is used to get a chosen victim who would otherwise ignore one to engage in conversation to counteract the insult. For example: “Oh, I bet you’re too stuck-up to talk to a guy like me.” The tendency is for the chosen victim to want to prove the insult untrue.

Now, does that seem familiar?

The thing is, a lot of the time such tactics are very successful. That’s notwithstanding that women are usually very aware that people are trying that. They have that gut feeling from years of experience. But they override that anyway. That’s all to do what the conditioning not to be seen as unkind or paranoid. It’s especially the case with people who hold themselves out as progressive, as you can use an aspect of oppression and thus try to create cognitive dissonance. So something like “because I’m neuroatypical, poor, fat…etc”. And it’s even harder to resist when people do the sad puppy thing. Ironically, men blowing up and becoming aggressive on rejection actually makes it much easier to tell someone to naff off.

But sometimes women will just spot the attempt and tell the perpetrator where to shove it right from the start. And more power to their elbows when they do. It’s their absolute right, and attempts at further guilt tripping, whether aimed at he individual, or women as a whole, will rightly get called out.

So does that help you understand the reactions you got?

Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

Test

@ howard
I don’t want this to look like a pile-on. People have already made all the relevant points very well. But I just want to add this. It’s not a dig; it’s meant as a bit of advice. So you can avoid such pushbacks in future. Assuming you heed it of course.
Professionals in close protection talk about something called ‘pre incident indicators’; but that’s just fancy talk for what the rest of us call ‘red flags’.
Here’s one of them:

  • Typecasting. An insult is used to get a chosen victim who would otherwise ignore one to engage in conversation to counteract the insult. For example: “Oh, I bet you’re too stuck-up to talk to a guy like me.” The tendency is for the chosen victim to want to prove the insult untrue.

Now, does that seem familiar?

The thing is, a lot of the time such tactics are very successful. That’s notwithstanding that women are usually very aware that people are trying that. They have that gut feeling from years of experience. But they override that anyway. That’s all to do what the conditioning not to be seen as unkind or paranoid. It’s especially the case with people who hold themselves out as progressive, as you can use an aspect of oppression and thus try to create cognitive dissonance. So something like “because I’m neuroatypical, poor, fat…etc”. And it’s even harder to resist when people do the sad puppy thing. Ironically, men blowing up and becoming aggressive on rejection actually makes it much easier to tell someone to naff off.

But sometimes women will just spot the attempt and tell the perpetrator where to shove it right from the start. And more power to their elbows when they do. It’s their absolute right, and attempts at further guilt tripping, whether aimed at he individual, or women as a whole, will rightly get called out.

So does that help you understand the reactions you got?

Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ howard

I don’t want this to look like a pile-on. People have already made all the relevant points very well. But I just want to add this. It’s not a dig; it’s meant as a bit of advice. So you can avoid such pushbacks in future. Assuming you heed it of course.

Professionals in close protection talk about something called ‘pre incident indicators’; but that’s just fancy talk for what the rest of us call ‘red flags’.

Here’s one of them:

  • Typecasting. An insult is used to get a chosen victim who would otherwise ignore one to engage in conversation to counteract the insult. For example: “Oh, I bet you’re too stuck-up to talk to a guy like me.” The tendency is for the chosen victim to want to prove the insult untrue.

Now, does that seem familiar?

The thing is, a lot of the time such tactics are very successful. That’s notwithstanding that women are usually very aware that people are trying that. They have that gut feeling from years of experience. But they override that anyway. That’s all to do what the conditioning not to be seen as unkind or paranoid. It’s especially the case with people who hold themselves out as progressive, as you can use an aspect of oppression and thus try to create cognitive dissonance. So something like “because I’m neuroatypical, poor, fat…etc”. And it’s even harder to resist when people do the sad puppy thing. Ironically, men blowing up and becoming aggressive on rejection actually makes it much easier to tell someone to naff off.

But sometimes women will just spot the attempt and tell the perpetrator where to shove it right from the start. And more power to their elbows when they do. It’s their absolute right, and attempts at further guilt tripping, whether aimed at he individual, or women as a whole, will rightly get called out.

So does that help you understand the reactions you got?

Last edited 1 month ago by Alan Robertshaw
Gaebolga
Gaebolga
1 month ago

@Howard

Not much to add, but like Sinkable John, I’m going to be optimistic about your motivations and give you a simple theoretical example of how your very first post here was chock full of sexism.

Suppose you see a guy you don’t know getting into a nice car on the street in front of you. You say “hey, nice car!” and the guy gives you the side eye and says “fuck off.”

If your immediate response is “jeez, guys are assholes,” instead of “jeez, that guy’s an asshole,” then you’re being sexist. Just like if the guy was Black and your immediate response was “jeez, Black people are assholes,” then you’re being racist. (And if your response was “jeez, Black guys are assholes,” then you’ve got a two-fer.)

I’m willing to bet you wouldn’t jump to “all guys are assholes” IRL, and if true, that should give you some data on where to start working on your personal issues and prejudices (if you want to; no one’s going to throw you in prison just for being a sexist asshole, but you shouldn’t be terribly surprised if no one wants to date you when you’re being a sexist asshole).

…also, because this kind of shit argument pisses me off on a very deep level:

Howard wrote:

But feminists talk all about body positivity but they are the ones who say that even if a man is of good character and nice to the women around him it’s still ok that he is rejected all the time. So how is that right.

As kupo, Victorious Parasol, and IgnoreSandra already pointed out, feminist talk about body positivity has fuck all to do with sexual preferences. For example, if someone isn’t sexually attracted to large women, that isn’t inherently a problem for feminists; it becomes a problem when folks start talking about “landwhales” and “no fatties.” Just like it would be problematic if StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved said “no m-words” (referring to the common slur against little people, in case you don’t know) or called you a shrimp or something.

But she didn’t, because she’s not an asshole.

Last edited 1 month ago by Gaebolga
Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
1 month ago

@howard

I am a hot conventual attractive 23 year old woman with an hourglass figure and big breast. I am married to a sexy, attractive, muscly marine whom I love with all my heart. we have been married for almost two years now, If I wasn’t “allowed” to turn down ever man who was nice to me I never would have met him. if I settled for something less them him, I’d be deeply unhappy. That is why it’s okay for women to reject a guy even if he’s “nice” to them. because they don’t have to settle for some smuk that does nothing for them.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
1 month ago

@Elaine

Man, two years already? It seems like only yesterday I was offering you advice on your wedding dress.

Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

 two years already?

Wait, what? Weren’t we chatting about Elaine’s upcoming wedding like three weeks ago?

Ah well, if I’m feeling old I’m taking you all down with me.

  • Will Smith is older than Uncle Phil was.
  • Wil Wheaton is older than Captain Picard was.
Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
1 month ago

@Victorious

It will be two years this October. it’s hard to imagine that because a few months after our wedding after he returned to base, covid started to spread and I have actually had little time to spend with him the last 2 years.

Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
1 month ago

@Alan

Who’s uncle Phil?

Dalillama
1 month ago

@Elaine
In Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Will Smith’s character is a teenager who is living with his uncle Phil in Bel Air.

Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
1 month ago

@
Dalillama

Ah okay, I watched reruns of the fresh prince growing up but I didn’t remember what the uncle’s name was at all. I remember cousin Hillary and Will’s girlfriend Lisa because well…. I had super big crushes on them before I realized I was Bi. Which makes sense because on of the most beautiful women I have ever seen is Hally Berry with short hair. Black women with pixy cut hair styles are apparently my hot button.

Keni
Keni
27 days ago

Just the fact that anyone would describe a 3 year old (or a 5 year old) as a “whore” makes me physically ill. It just proves women and girls don’t have to do anything to be called a slut or a whore, they just have to exist