Do you remember when alt-rightsters wouldn’t shut up about “white genocide,” the alleged plot by our hidden (((puppetmasters))) to get rid of the white race by convincing people of color and white people to have biracial babies together? By their logic, anything that encouraged mixed marriages/relationships, from multiracial underwear ads to mixed-race emojis to anal porn, was an act of genocide against the white race.
Now the Gender Critical activists — as I noted in a post here last December — are using the same logic to argue that pro-trans activists are promoting “lesbian erasure” as former butch lesbians come out as trans men.
Well, fast-forward 8 months and some Gender Critical memester has taken this logic one step further with this meme denouncing, yes, “tomboy genocide,” which I found posted on the FightFemaleErasure subreddit (an attempt by Gender Critical Redditors to circumvent the ban on the Gender Critical subreddit).
The logic underlying the meme is the same as the “lesbian erasure” argument: by promoting trans rights, trans activists are somehow pressuring “tomboys” — that is, young women with “boyish” traits — to give up their identity and transition into trans men. If enough “tomboys” do this we end up with no tomboys — which of course means TOMBOY GENOCIDE.
Of course, this assumes that every trans man is really just a confused tomboy who got conned into getting top surgery.
It never occurs to the Gender Crits that maybe some of the tomboys they knew in years gone by were trans men who for a variety of reasons hadn’t decided to transition, or didn’t realize it was an actual real-world option. The relatively greater awareness of trans people these days has led to an uptick in people transitioning — especially trans men. That doesn’t mean they’re all getting conned or pressured or “trended” into it; it may be that transitioning to men seemed too radical a step to take back when trans men were virtually invisible in the culture.
When I went looking for other examples of this new meme I discovered yet more evidence of the Gender Critical/alt-right mind meld: one of the first search results was to this cartoon posted on 4chan, illustrating the “tomboy genocide” logic.
This cartoon is a reworking of this graphic, in which a “femboy” victim is being brainwashed by “Big Trans” into becoming a trans woman. (I think this cartoon is supposed to be satirical, but it’s hard to tell these days.)
I also discovered an assortment of other “tomboy” memes.
You’ll have to figure them out — and explain them to me — because I’m not sure where they’re coming from. Are tomboys having some sort of cultural moment I’m unaware of, or is this just a bunch of 4channers pining for a “boyfriend with tits?”
H/T — r/AgainstHateSubreddits
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@Sinkable John
Even when they start out entertaining they always reveal extreme creepiness and grossness.
@StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
Oh don’t I fucking know it. Creepy and gross can be entertaining though, otherwise this site couldn’t exist. But yeah… there’s a fine line between “entertaining” and “banhammer fodder”. This dude couldn’t even walk it.
Then again, to be fair, the last time I found a troll entertaining was Seagull Guy and that was in like 2017.
@Sinkable John
You’re right. I do like tormenting and mocking creeps, especially the NiceGuy creeps I loathe the most. That’s obviously not what this asshole was. He was just a violent asshole. But creeps here can be entertaining.
Seagull was before I started commenting here but I have had my share of trolls, mostly those getting some gross crush or obsession with me because I’m a conventionally attractive polyamorous dominant woman. (That’s not my preferred terminology but it’s the mainstream language that most closely fits me)
To be clear there’s nothing wrong with having a fetish in regards tomboys or femboys.
Just so long as there’s an acknowledgement that this particular group of people don’t solely exist to fulfill a person’s fetish and that they need be treated with the same level of respect that you’d like to have.
@StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
Yeah that’s… the trolls you get prolly aren’t the fun kind.
I miss Seagull Guy.
I used to carry a printed version of that in my wallet. Good times.
@Jon
Beautifully stated and so valid for all fetishes. Respect the people first. Once you do that, enjoy what you enjoy.
I remember that, that was awesome!
I think I do object to ‘oatmeal fondling’, silicone is much better absent another person.
Gender critical people are the only reason I’ve ever questioned my own gender identity as a cis woman.
I’ve always been what people would identify as a tomboy. I did martial arts my whole life, hated dresses, had short hair (or put it up in a braid – though part of that is cultural shaming of curly hair), and was a huge nerd. The only time I ever wondered if maybe I wasn’t actually a girl was when I was told that “real women” wear makeup and dresses or like “girly” hobbies.
Being so rigid in gender roles seems to me like it would drive a lot more people who exist outside or on the boundaries of gender norms to question whether they belong in their current/default box.
*On the topic of gender identity, does anyone else feel “meh” about theirs? Like I am pretty sure I’m not a man, but I don’t feel super attached to the idea of being a woman and she/her pronouns. What does being a woman feel like? I just feel like me.
@Sinkable John
Oh, it’s ok. I enrage and fluster them online because of how I make clear how I choose what men are allowed in my presence. That’s fine and I love it. In my actual life I live in an environment where I have almost total control (which I love) so on the times when I allow an iffy or questionable man in my presence he’s usually pretty intimidated and easy to get rid of when I want. I wasn’t always like this though! I had a much more difficult life even just three years ago
Akane? Sorry, Ranma 1/2 reference.
Exactly. It’s primarily a method of control, and it’s finally percolating into the social consciousness that you have more choices than ‘this box or that box’. And that scares certain types of people a lot.
@bumblebug
That’s an interesting question 😀
I feel GREAT about my gender identity, which… is not the one I was assigned at birth. That one I felt pretty “meh” about the whole time I carried it, because “real men” do a lot of shit I’m not interested into, and they’re also forbidden from doing a whole lot of shit that I am into. It is exactly as you said, if there wasn’t an idea of “real women” and “real men”, most of us would go through our entire lives content with the gender we’ve been assigned at birth, because it simply wouldn’t be a question – and wouldn’t require an answer.
From what you described, sounds like you might be non-binary, in which case you get a solidarity fist-bump from me (and, I’m certain, a lot of others here). Actually you get the fist-bump even if not, just for asking those questions. I’m not gonna pretend like I have all the answers for them, but this might be one.
@bumblebug:
Pretty much on the ‘meh’ question.
There was another commenter here years ago, whose name I unfortunately do not remember (and this was before a rather large blow-up on the blog) who said that there were, in their experience, two relatively distinct types of people who just did not ‘get’ trans issues.
The first (and loudest and most numerous) group was those who were personally quite attached to the gender they were assigned, and who couldn’t understand why anybody would want to be anything else.
The second group was those who were almost entirely unattached to any gender, and who had trouble understanding that anybody else would have strong enough feelings about their own gender to want to go through the effort to change it.
Reading that was a bit of an ‘aha’ moment for me, as I realized I was pretty much in that second category. I don’t understand what trans people are going through; I’ve always been ‘me’ rather than ‘male’ or ‘female’. Of course, that doesn’t mean I can’t be supportive of people. I don’t need to understand why people want to transition in order to understand that some people do, or that the people who want to transition need social support. Especially given the number of people who are rather less understanding.
@Sinkable John
I… I do listen to Nickleback unironically. Never did get the hate for them, they’re not great, not terrible. Guess I’m an alabaster sea triplet cumbersome zebra. (?)
(???)
Was he smoking something strong?
@Makroth
He was a big boi, all growed up. He said so in another topic, about how growed up he was: only grownups play Insurgency. I believed him and everything.
@Sinkable John
Thanks for sharing your experience.
You might be right. I’ve been hesitant to label myself because I’m totally fine with being called a woman. So I don’t want any experimentation I do with gender to feed into the idea that queerness could be a “phase” for other people who come out.
@Jenora
This is pretty much how I feel. I’m glad to see there are other people who feel the same way.
@Big Titty Demon:
It’s not really Nickleback per se, they’re just one of the poster children for bland pop music. Similar to how “Walmart” is often a stand-in for big box chain stores. (Though there do exist people who hate on it specifically, due to personal familiarity.)
Some people like music which is complex, subtle, with rich notes and melodies; comparing it to food, most pop music is either too bland or too sweet. It’s boring and perhaps slightly unpleasant. It’s easy for people who are like that to dismiss it as “baby” music or “mind-numbing pap” because that’s absolutely how they experience it, and don’t understand how anyone over the age of 5 could experience otherwise. Obviously, not everyone who experiences things like that becomes a music snob, as some people get how tastes and experiences can be different.
On the other hand, for some people, complex music is just a barely-coherent auditory smear which doesn’t sound much like music and isn’t really enjoyable. Pop music is way easier to “get”. Some of them can learn to appreciate more complex music as well as the simpler sort, and may even come to prefer it (or enjoy both on different levels), but not quickly and easily. And some absolutely can’t (due to differences in how their ears work or the way their brain is wired) or simply don’t want to bother, for any number of reasons – including pop-music snobbery, weird as that may sound. And obviously there are a lot of in-betweens, everyone’s different.
I’m not exactly a fan of Nickleback anymore but I used to be. I remember what I answered back when Seagull Guy said that, and the gist of it was, it’s prolly worse to listen to them ironically than unironically. Having pseudo-intellectual pretensions about music to the point where you judge others on what they like, well, that’s a much bigger sign of an asshole than liking music that’s been overplayed on the radio.
@bumblebug
Here’s the secret : while queerness is not in and of itself a phase, it does require an experimentation phase just to figure yourself out. That can take many forms – for me an important part of it was asking questions in this very community, and hey, I was worried about the same things !
Handsome Jack, if you’re reading this, I hope you’re doing well 🙂
I was worried about the same things and then it turned out I was wrong. And years later I’m still going through various experimentation phases (these days it’s clothing) and figuring myself out and dealing with impostor syndrome which… kinda just comes with the territory. That’s what you’re feeling, by the way, it’s called impostor syndrome and there’s no avoiding it and it’s hell but you can trust other queer people to shake you out of it whenever it crawls into your mind.
Experiment as much as you need to, ask all of the questions you need to (here is a good place for that !) and most importantly, do not worry. And even if at the end of the day, it turns out you’re not actually non-binary (which is something only you can tell), well you will have learned more about yourself regardless and the rest of us certainly aren’t gonna judge you for having done the mental and emotional work it requires to figure that out. It’s a big house and we love having guests, even if they don’t end up becoming residents. Take all the time you need and enjoy your stay.
@ Assorted
I’m not an expert on this subject, but I believe the term that applies to part of the present conversation is “Agender”, I.E. not feeling like any particular gender, neither male nor female. Similar to non-binary, but personally I feel like it comes off the tongue easier.
<looks around>
I’m still seeing tomboys and butch lesbians a’plenty. There’s a tomboy in my mirror! There’s two butch lesbians across the street!
I think a case could be made for “agender” and “non-binary” as slightly different things, but it’s not my case to make.
And my random music provider is right now telling me there’s nothing wrong with silly love songs.
@Sinkable John and others
Thank you all. I just feel slightly overwhelmed in a good way. Thank you.
I would agree.
@Sinkable John:
While true, I think it’s helpful to note that EVERYONE needs an experimentation phase to figure out their sexuality. There are all sorts of stereotypes and assumptions that are out there, and most of them affect straight folks in similar ways to how they do queers. As a result, whether you’re asexual, aro, queer, straight, there are going to be things to work through.
Well, like I said, I’m not an expert. I gather agender falls under non-binary. Non-binary is more non specific, could be considered something of a spectrum, whereas agender is outright no gender.
(Honestly, on this site I figured someone identifying as agender would have chimed in with a more in depth personal description five minutes after I offered my off the top of my head musing.)
Insurgency obviously isn’t aware that, as an ambassador of the feminist revolution (in exile), I wear expensive, well-cut suits and participate in high-level diplomatic meetings with other ambassadors (in exile) five days a week. On the weekends I throw on one of my exquisite little black dresses and party with these diplomats. Naturally, we get our best work done at these soirees. There’s something about excellent wine and fabulous hors d’oeuvres and live music that brings out what’s finest in us.
The basic idea of the gender scale goes:
Male↔Demiboy↔Genderqueer↔Demigirl↔Female
There’s agender, which is off the scale; and bigender, which is either at both ends of the scale simultaneously or off the scale in the opposite direction of agender, depending on how you conceptualize it.
And then non-binary/enby, which depending on context can be: a substitute for “genderqueer” because some people don’t like that term, or an umbrella term for the whole range of genders which aren’t “male” or “female”, or a way of saying “I don’t know and I don’t care for labels, I’m just whatever”… though people who are really into “queer culture” sometimes use “genderqueer” as a self-label meaning the latter. So basically non-binary and genderqueer are kind of a confusing mess where they’ve got multiple definitions and are partially but not fully interchangeable.
“Cisgender”, “Transgender”, and “Genderfluid” are relational terms, and not genders in of themselves. “Furry” is not a gender but an aesthetic.
That’s the simplified version. It works well enough for most purposes, like the Kinsey scale, though sometimes there’s value in exploring beyond that. There are additional relational terms, culture-specific terms, gender-related aesthetics which aren’t genders in themselves but still useful identity labels (butch and femme being most common examples), and obscure genders which don’t fit neatly on the scale.
For me there is a strange similarity between sex and gender related words, and other words of intensity. It’s more about how other people are using them, and the feelings associated with use and misuse.
I choose to be sensitive like I choose to be sensitive to profanity, and some other things. Maybe I don’t feel nothing, but “gender null” fits best because I feel the expressions people have about their connections more than my own. It has instrumental parts.
There’s so much to figure out.