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Dunning–Kruger effect MGTOW misogyny reddit

“Men are the prize,” declares man who is very clearly not a prize

Over in the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, an excitable fellow by the name of ClutchNes is giving a little pep talk to his peers.

“What society gets wrong and what needs to change is…..the concept that females are the prize,” he declares, setting forth his basic thesis.

no, they are not. Men are prize, NOW MORE THAN EVER.

Let me jazz that up a little for you:

Men are the protector, the provider, those who keep the system running, those who are doing the dirty and demanding jobs.

Have you ever been to a hospital? A nursing home? A female Roller Derby match? Hard to see how any of these would survive more than a couple of hours without women doing a lot of the grunt work.

it’s no surprise that women are extremely entitled and don’t have to fear consequences to take responsibility for their actions, because society is still pretending that women are the prize.

What consequences are women supposed to be avoiding, exactly? If you prick them, do they not bleed? If you tickle them, do they not laugh?

Might want to get permission before doing any of that.

how the fuck are they the prize? they bring nothing but their wet holes to the table,

No, that was Judy Chicago.

can’t even fucking cook

I’m not sure MGTOWs really have any right to criticize anyone else’s cooking.

or take care of the household, don’t bring any useful skills, wasting time on nonsense, overpriced crap and social media, zero to none real hobbies and topics you can discuss with them.

Dude, one of your hobbies is writing poorly reasoned and barely literate screeds about the alleged superiority of men, so, again, I’m not sure you really have much to brag about, hobby-wise.

I don’t get it, fuck gynocentrism and fuck feminism, this world will fucking burn to the ground once the females are in total control.

“The females” aren’t actually all that interested in total control. Unless we’re talking about my cats.

If we are honest, even back then women were nothing else but trophies, a prize for “decent” men, a tool to control the men and make them obedient tax payers, world builders, career men, because women being the prize NEVER made sense, it should always been that men are the prize, the only difference is how to convince men to still get their shit together and be the best man they can be, REGARDLESS of women – and this is what movements like MGTOW are trying to do, that’s the real mindset, philosophy and spirit.

IF MGTOW is supposed to be making you “the best man you could be,” I’d have to say that it is doing a terrible job.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 months ago

@epitome :

> The problems I have that are attributable to “nothing is foolproof” should be distributed fairly evenly over time

No. That’s backward : something random will *NOT* be fairly evenly distributed over time. Even more than that, any human looking at a random distribution *WILL* think it’s not random and that it’s too clumped to be random.

It’s litteraly wired into our brain to be bad at statistics. You are doing the level 0 error of any statistician. Perfectly understandable because that’s the normal human behavior, but you seem persuaded you could recognize randomness by seeing it, where it’s the opposite.

Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

Randomness is weird; like probability. It’s not very intuitive.

If you ask people to distribute themselves randomly in a room; they tend to space out evenly. A true random distribution though would have some people in groups and some isolated people stuck in corners etc. Clusters are part of randomness; but they don’t seem so.

When you select ‘shuffle’ on an iPod or similar it originally generates a real random selection; but then if for example two tracks from the same band come next to each other, the algorithm moves them apart. True randomness doesn’t appear random to us. So ironically they have to make it less random to seem so.

Brains are weird. But presumably it stopped us getting eating by sabre tooth tigers or something.

Last edited 5 months ago by Alan Robertshaw
opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
5 months ago

These peculiar men may think they’re the prize, but they really rather kind of ain’t.

But howsoever nevertheless yet notwithstanding, speaking of prizes – here is one for all the fans of mind-bendingly difficult physical challenges …
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jun/17/sabrina-verjee-sets-record-for-running-all-214-wainwright-peaks-in-under-six-days

(your cup of tea, perhaps @Alan? 🙂 )

Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ opposable thumbs

your cup of tea, perhaps @Alan

Oh wow yeah, very much so.

That is a spectacular achievement though. I was going to brag about my “Three Peaks Badge”…

https://www.threepeakschallenge.uk/yorkshire-three-peaks-challenge/

But I would have to concede 214 peaks is more impressive.

I have done the Shelterbox Dartmoor Challenge a few times. We’ve never won it. Or even come in the top half. In fact we’ve always come last. It’s great fun though.

Last edited 5 months ago by Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

In case you were wondering what’s in those green boxes…

comment image

Shelterbox is like Thunderbirds. They store those boxes all around the world. Then if there’s a disaster they try to deploy them as a first response. They’re tailored for different climates and potential emergencies. But the idea is that there’s enough stuff in each one to keep a family alive until full-on disaster relief can arrive and be set up.

One thing that really hit me was the children’s stuff. Like colouring books and sometimes cuddly toys*. It really brings home the human reality of what we hear about on the news. (I’m tearing up a bit now!)

But for the challenge, it’s teams of four, you’re given a series of grid references, and at each one there’s some sort of challenge. Like those command task exercises. You have two days to complete it, and you can use all the stuff in the box. Which you have to carry. You can’t drag it. Or dump the contents behind walls.

ETA: *I do have a Shelterbox bear; he’s very cute…

comment image

Last edited 5 months ago by Alan Robertshaw
Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 months ago

@Alan : I agree. Our intuition is rigged to be bad at stats, probably to manipulate us in seeking correlation more often. (which is exactly what Epitome try to do here, he put too much effort in finding non-existing correlations)

A similar example is how most videogame don’t give loot randomly, because everyone complain it’s rigged if they do.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
5 months ago

If you ask people to distribute themselves randomly in a room; they tend to space out evenly. A true random distribution though would have some people in groups and some isolated people stuck in corners etc.

During the pandemic, I’ve often intuitively tried to dodge away when passing people in grocery stores and such places. Sometimes I feel kind of silly about it, because intellectually I strongly suspect that fleeting moments of close contact don’t really make a difference for infection risk when I’m spending time with other people in indoor spaces. Especially when people walk around and the air swirls, aerosols probably tend to be evenly distributed.

I think what mainly matters is the accumulation of aerosols in the general airspace. This would depend on the general crowding level, how good the ventilation is and whether most people are wearing masks properly. Any substantial clustering will likely also matter, so do keep some distance when standing in the checkout line!

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
5 months ago

3 peaks is plenty impressive, imo! (think I might just about manage one, make that a small one, at a gentle stroll with a nice sit-down at the top to enjoy the view TYK :-s ).
Shelterbox bear does look cute, though 🙂 and what a brilliant initiative. I suppose they store them somewhere anonymous, in whatever city/ies or town/s are most convenient to get to from inside or outside the country.

still randomly sometimes getting a black rectangle instead of vids, while still images seem to be fine; wish I knew why (>.<)

It’s one of my favourite things (as in, both intriguing and impossibly annoying) that random distribution (and probabilities, and stats in general) are so counter-intuitive. Why we humans are generally so very bad at estimating risk (and at picking “random” numbers 🙂 )

As you say, @Ohlmann, probably to do with seeking correlations and patterns – better to jump when it was a false positive (predator you thought you saw about to chomp you wasn’t really there) than not bother jumping when it was a false negative … :-s

Last edited 5 months ago by opposablethumbs
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
5 months ago

The three peaks is FUN! First did it as a kid – school trip for the running team. Not too difficult, either – took about 8 or 9 hours, if I recall right.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
5 months ago

3 peaks is plenty impressive, imo! (think I might just about manage one, make that a small one, at a gentle stroll with a nice sit-down at the top to enjoy the view TYK :-s ).

Reading this immediately after switching over from the orgasm/refraction thread.

.45
.45
5 months ago

@Surplus

“The melting pot of social media, in which nothing gets much attention except if you’re famous.

The uselessness of online dating, where you’re thrown up against three or four billion competitors and inevitably won’t rank in the top 10.

The overall atomization of society.”

Top 10 out of 3 or 4 billion? Forget the top 20%… ;D

Do you really think only the top 10 out of half the population of the world are successful at online dating? I mean, I’m a socially awkward mess who never dated or really talked to women, and I am finding some measure of interest after a year’s effort trying online dating.

(In my admittedly limited experience, the larger a population in the area the better. You’re not competing with half the world. Most people are trying to keep things inside an hour or 45 minutes away, so local population density is rather critical. Almost all my more talkative and interested matches live an hour away, from several large cities. Only one has been from the same small town I live in. Seems to be all of twenty people active at any one time inside a half hour drive, which significantly cuts my chances there. Ooodles online in the cities.)

On a more serious note, per your discussion on arranging society to be more social, that reminds me of a book I read many years ago on that topic. It listed the various ways this could be done and how communities should be built and laid out to make this happen. This struck me as rather interesting, because it seemed like everyone had read this book and decided to do the exact opposite. Upon a moment’s reflection, even as a clueless youngster the reason was obvious as to why: Capitalism.

For example, one point was that buildings should never be more than a few stories high, so that anyone in them can readily yell at and communicate with people in the streets. (OK, catcalling says this isn’t ideal, but…) That would then avoid the sense of detachment from the world one can get living too high up to interact with the life below, blah, blah, blah. However, this would require a vastly more spread out city scape or many smaller communities, a significant number of redundancies in terms of infrastructure and businesses… which means lots and lots of money, space and effort needed to build and maintain everything. Money, space and effort no company or government wants to spend. Thus we have skyscrapers and crowded cities.

Susan
Susan
5 months ago

Very late to the party here, but it astounds me over and over how close these guys get to realizing that patriarchy is the problem.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
5 months ago

@Ohlmann:

Let’s do the actual math on this, shall we? You champion a null hypothesis of “the base rate of power failures in my block has not changed recently”. Let’s take “recently” to be the last, say, 3 years. During that time there have been six outages lasting longer than one minute (I take that as the threshold separating self-correcting glitches from breakdowns that actually required manual human intervention to repair). Including this week’s three.

So, outages of this severity have been occurring at an average rate of about one every 180 days. Alternatively put, the odds of getting one on any particular day ought to be 1/180.

It follows that the probability that any particular day will be the first of three days in a row with multi-minute outages would be one in 5832000.

I don’t think I need to tell you that there are a lot fewer days than that in a three-year period. In fact, there are 1095. The probability, then, given the observed rate of such outages over the past three years, of my running into an incident like earlier this week is smaller than one in five thousand.

The null hypothesis is thus rejected with p=0.9998. I think that’s well above the usual p=0.95 threshold demanded by professional journals.

The only two counterarguments I can envision here end up backfiring.

One is a sample size argument: only six outages? But given the overall rate of one every 180 days it would take decades to get a really nice sample size, and on timescales that long it’s bound to be the case that a relevant policy change will occur. Which means the null hypothesis would prove to be false by the end of the study period.

The other is to argue that the failures are not independent of one another. The problem with that is, there are only two ways for that to happen. One is for a common external cause to be in play, say a days-long freezing rain event or even a hurricane. However, no such ongoing atypical relevant external condition was actually present during the three-day interval at issue. The other is for the first failure itself to have set up the conditions for the second and third ones. But the only way that happens is if the repair performed after the first failure was in some way incomplete, overlooking something and leading to the repair being fragile and failing again within 24 hours. This would, if true, prove my case that the power company has abruptly become incompetent, as the repairs after the prior three outages in the three-year period each held for months or longer at minimum, and then we got two repairs in a row that didn’t last out a day. The repairs now become the data that is hard to explain without an underlying change in the defacto policy of the organization.

However, this fragile-repair hypothesis is actually unlikely. I’d expect a shoddy, corner-cutting, cost-minimizing repair job that fails within a day to be performed much faster than a proper, thorough, careful repair job that will hold up for weeks or longer, and therefore that hypothesis predicts that the first two failures of the recent three would have been significantly briefer than the third.

The data are the diametric opposite: the third outage was the shortest by a good margin and the second was the longest. If there was a better, more thorough repair job, it was on the 2nd outage, and then the third one is an independent failure again. If there was a shoddy, corner-cutting repair job it was on the 3rd outage, but there has not (yet) been a 4th. The data provides strong evidence against the fragile-repair hypothesis … which would still not have helped you here though.

The conclusion is inescapable. The recent triplet of power outages was extremely improbable (p<0.0002) without an underlying shift in the behavior of the utility company that created the conditions for it to occur.

<gavel bang>

@.45:

In my admittedly limited experience, the larger a population in the area the better. You’re not competing with half the world. Most people are trying to keep things inside an hour or 45 minutes away, so local population density is rather critical. Almost all my more talkative and interested matches live an hour away, from several large cities. Only one has been from the same small town I live in. Seems to be all of twenty people active at any one time inside a half hour drive, which significantly cuts my chances there. Ooodles online in the cities.

So, the capacity to date and perhaps find a long term relationship is also now being denied to anyone unable to pay $2000 or more a month in rent, in addition to:

  • Grocery delivery
  • Non-emergency medical care
  • Newer TV content and films, barring resorting to piracy.

How much more will be added to that list in the coming years, I wonder? And where are these policy shifts being decided? It sure doesn’t seem to be coming up for debate during Question Period …

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 months ago

@Surplus : you continue the same basic mistake. STATISTICS DON’T WORK THAT WAY. And you aren’t doing a neutral analysis ; you’re just trying to justify your errors via misconceptions.

Your “analysis” here would suggest that running ten 6 on ten dice is litteraly impossible and cannot be attributed to luck. In real life, as you may know, that actually happen. (I have done that for damage on one of my player in tabletop rpg)

The most basic problem of your analysis is that you would not have noticed just 3 incidents in a row in electricity. But 3 incidents in the same general area, regardless of what is that area. Would you have three days without buses, or three days with your local store having a problem of X, or three days with internet problems.

Now, let’s apply that to a city. One human easily use 10 differents services in their day live to live. Supposing any single service have a 1% fail rate and a city have 100.000 inhabitant, there’s about 120 peoples who would see 3 days in a row with the same service being on the fritz each day.

Without any hypothesis, something that you rule out as impossible happen to hundred of people, every day.

That’s also expressed thus “improbable stuff happen all the time”. It’s one of the basic statistic fact, WAY more important than the p-value that you CLEARLY have absolutely no idea of how to use ; and it’s the #1 rules of anyone who work on safety. Typically, Tchernobyl would be deemed as impossible without sabotage with the kind of p-hacking you are doing.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
5 months ago

@Ohlmann:

I won’t dignify most of your hacky hit-piece with a response, but this bit is easily refuted (and takes down the whole rest, domino-style):

Your “analysis” here would suggest that running ten 6 on ten dice is litteraly impossible and cannot be attributed to luck. In real life, as you may know, that actually happen.

I didn’t claim it was impossible. I claimed, essentially, that if you get ten 6s in a row within, say, the first hundred rolls of a typical-looking six-sided die then there is a very small chance this legitimately happened by sheer luck and a very significant chance that the die you were rolling is loaded to favor 6s.

Your claim, meanwhile, amounts to an assertion that it is outright impossible for the die to be loaded, even after getting a run of ten sixes after only a few dozen rolls of it. Essentially that we should disbelieve evidence that a game was rigged even when it is pretty darn blatant.

That’s ridiculous.

I stand by my claim that something has recently caused a jump in the probability of power outages in my area. That claim is far more supported by the data than is the null hypothesis of no such jump having occurred.

I will not engage you further on this topic as it is clear you have some kind of an axe to grind. (And I seem to recall saying something similar to you fairly recently, on a different topic, too. This seems to be a recurring issue with you.)

bumblebug
bumblebug
5 months ago

@Surplus:

So, the capacity to date and perhaps find a long term relationship is also now being denied to anyone unable to pay $2000 or more a month in rent, in addition to:

– Grocery delivery

– Non-emergency medical care

– Newer TV content and films, barring resorting to piracy.

How much more will be added to that list in the coming years, I wonder? And where are these policy shifts being decided? It sure doesn’t seem to be coming up for debate during Question Period …

This is a really bad faith incel-ish argument. There’s obviously no “policy” that stops people in small towns from dating.
Small towns have fewer people than big cities. Fewer people means fewer single people. Fewer single people means fewer people available to go on a date. Fewer people available to go on a date means lower chances of finding a long term partnership.

This is literally always been the case. Yes, it sucks that dating is a numbers game and that large cities with large numbers of people are expensive to live in. Yes, cost of living is way too high and there need to be policies to address that.

But no, there are no evil policy makers who are conspiring to keep you from sex or a relationship by making things prohibitively expensive.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
5 months ago

So, the capacity to date and perhaps find a long term relationship is also now being denied to anyone unable to pay $2000 or more a month in rent, in addition to:

Grocery delivery
Non-emergency medical care
Newer TV content and films, barring resorting to piracy.

How much more will be added to that list in the coming years, I wonder? And where are these policy shifts being decided?

It sure doesn’t seem to be coming up for debate during Question Period …

Surplus, I hope you’re just being hyperbolic, because otherwise I agree with bumblebug that this argument feels…worrying. I know you’re not an incel, but this sounds like some of the stuff they say.

I’d like to understand you better. In my experience, people from all social classes are able to find relationships. Yes, small towns have smaller dating pools because they have a smaller population. But this isn’t new, and certainly people met and settled down together before the internet made far-flung dating possible.

I feel like you must be speaking out of some painful personal experiences that we’re not privy to. I’m sorry to hear you’ve had trouble finding relationships, but I don’t believe you really think that can be due to any malicious policy decisions taken by the government.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
5 months ago

Oh, I’ve long since given up on dating. I don’t even know how to hold down a normal conversation, and I have no way to actually go out and meet new people due to lack of affordable transportation options.

Doesn’t stop me from adding to the list of things being increasingly restricted to the top 10% though.

There seem to be a mix of policy decisions, some public and some private, combining to cause this. On the private side, we have businesses underserving areas out side of big cities because they are less profitable, and the entertainment industry wanting to move everything behind their streaming paywalls, now that they can. The latter just incidentally makes it inaccessible to anyone without high speed internet. Outside the big cities, of course, high speed internet is almost nonexistent, save for 4G if you get a good signal, and you pay by the gigabyte for mobile data so you’d still have to be rich to watch a lot of video over that connection.

Public decisions include not to invest more heavily in building out broadband internet outside the bigger cities, the systematic favoring of giant land developers and suburban homeowners over renters in policymaking, and even the “quantitative easing” (aka printing money) that’s all the rage these days, which helicopters free money to the rich (aka those who need it least) who then spend it in speculation on various asset markets rather than on productive enterprise (they spend on productive enterprise if that’s the only way to get more money, so, if demand is high and they don’t have any easier source of money). Speculative asset purchases include real estate, driving up housing prices.

Then there’s public decisions that have starved the general populace of decent-paying jobs, public decisions whittling away at social security and the like (or simply letting it stagnate while inflation does the dirty work), and so on, and so forth.

But it does seem to have accelerated in recent years. Until about 2018 it was possible to get non-emergency healthcare outside the major cities in Canada, for example, and very little TV and movie fare was restricted to streaming paywalls. In that year, though, doctors started dumping their patients left and right outside of the major cities, and the TV industry did a little experiment, moving “The Orville” behind their streaming paywalls after two seasons on normal OTA TV. Apparently there was an insufficient backlash to the latter dick move because more and more shows are following the same path now: air a season or two on traditional TV and then move it behind the paywall.

Canada is rapidly turning itself into the same kind of banana republic the US already has, where there’s a highly privileged 10% living in the major urban centers and then there’s everyone else, shut out from basic services (decent internet speeds at an affordable price, health care) and relegated to low-quality jobs without prospects of advancement, increasingly segregated from the 10% both geographically and by getting separate, crappier tiers of services and excluded from others altogether, sometimes with a very expensive way out.

Speaking of geographic segregation, did you know there’s now no intercity bus service here? If you don’t own a car and don’t live in a large urban center you can’t even visit that large urban center now, not even at the exorbitant price of about $200 per round trip from before. I suppose you could rent a car, or take a taxi, but it will probably set you back a grand or more to do so.

The 10% might as well be building physical walls around their enclaves now; this amounts to the same thing.

There’s no way this ends well.

bumblebug
bumblebug
5 months ago

@Surplus:
If you’re trying to say that poor infrastructure and public amenities caused by current political and economic circumstances have a side effect of making socialization, dating, and any sort of networking more difficult for people in lower income brackets, then I agree with you.

But your previous comment made it sound like you think that there is some conspiracy to keep you from dating and ruin your life. It may not be your intention, but your comments often read as you saying that you are being specifically targeted and that the people in charge are out to make specifically your life as difficult as possible.

I agree that the way things are set up now puts people in lower income brackets at a huge disadvantage. This needs to change. But no one is after you in particular.

Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

As we have recently been discussing both lions and giant cat statues; I feel able to claim this is on topic. (That’s one single piece of wood!)

comment image

https://mymodernmet.com/giant-lion-worlds-largest-sculpture/?fbclid=IwAR3otcL1ukxrx1ZL5p0SYCdj0gQIqLRxQi7492FBX8-6asYP2_im6GOfBqI

Last edited 5 months ago by Alan Robertshaw
Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
5 months ago

@Surplus

I love my husband very much. we met on my college campus when he was there for one of those mormial things that soldiers do and I was walking to class. Chance decided that we should be together. The street worker that put the uneven curve on the side walk hadn’t planned for me to trip over it and for my husband to catch me, but that’s what happened. We live in Kansas. I go to a small college. I live in the smallest capital of any of the states I have ever seen. My husband doesn’t have his own car, I have mine. we are both still poor but we were poorer when we started dating. our first date was dinner at an ihop and a play being put on at my campus theater department. all and all the first date cost about 40 dollars. We still don’t have a concrete place to live together when he gets out of the marines. We don’t go out much. we stream things and watch YouTube videos together for entertainment. There are still the things we do that go out on special events that include things like a corn maze during fall season, small town fairs, thrift shopping, renasounce festival, The occasional barn dance, the drag show (never taking him to that one again), there are a lot of times where we just put on some music and slow dance to our wedding song in the kitchen. if he has a million dollars or 1 dollar I still love him, I still choose to be with him, I still wear his ring.

There is no human plot, policy, or conspincary to decide if you fall in love or get into a relationship. It’s fate that does. Humans pair off with the humans they meet in their communities or surrounding communities. Bigger cities make it harder. Because it’s harder to meet people when your in a sea of other people. If I didn’t trip, I would have just continued to walk by with my face in my phone and my thoughts on my lab work I still needed to do. But I tripped, the most handsome soldier I had ever seen caught me in his strong arms and uniform. Then he saw me later when I was walking back from class and asked me if my ankle was okay. I didn’t plan on finding him that day, it just happened. And I think that is the way it happens for most people. They don’t plan it, can’t force it, it just drops out of the sky one day and finds them. You just have to be open to it. And you’ve closed yourself off to it. That’s fine, if you don’t want to date, if you don’t want a relationship, that’s fine. Close yourself off to it. But if you want one, you have to be open. You have to look around you. You have to be able to change and adapt to changes. You have to be positive in your interactions with others. A beautiful woman might be looking at you on the bus and you snub her off cause she’s got an expensive bag or something and think she could want nothing to do with someone without money.

I saw an incel post just the other day where some idiot thought a woman was trying to trick him because she asked for a cigarette, he told her no and then he saw her pull out one. You know what he missed? someone trying to have a conversation with him. someone trying to make the first move. I am going off the things you have posted here to tell you that you are your own worst enemy. You make assumptions on people. you snub people. you decide you got everything all figured out and you close yourself off to anyone that wants to help you. Its not a stretch to think you do that in romantic relationships as well.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
5 months ago

@ Elaine,

But I tripped, the most handsome soldier I had ever seen caught me in his strong arms and uniform.

Aww, your “how we met” story is the plot of a romance movie! 😍

I always enjoy the way you talk about your husband. Your love for each other is so wonderful to see. My husband and I were also pretty financially iffy when we met, and we stayed that way for years. Our best dates were, and remain, going on long walks together and just talking. That’s how we, I guess “courted” is the best word, and we still do that now. The cost is nothing (except sore feet the next day – we’re not in our early 20s anymore!)

GSS ex-noob
GSS ex-noob
5 months ago

@Alan: you’ve got an Ian McKellen thing happening in your teddy bear photo; I approve.

My husband and I met at a college dance. Our first date was the terrible pizza from the only place that was walking distance from the college. I think it was the only pizza place in the small town, and it was so terrible that everyone rejoiced mightily when Domino’s finally opened a store, because Domino’s was far superior. (!)

We were often down to peanut butter and mac n cheese by the end of the month. Later we had plenty of money and bought a house and traveled. We’re back to pinching pennies to keep hold of the house — thankfully Obamacare came in — and we still eat pizza once a week, on 40% discount day.

Dalillama
5 months ago

@Bookworm

Aww, your “how we met” story is the plot of a romance movie

(Possible TMI)
I’d tell mine, but it’s more the plot of a low budget porn movie.

Last edited 5 months ago by Dalillama
Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
5 months ago

@ GSS, our go-to meal was anything with lentils. And our first “date” was visiting the local cat shelter together to play with the kittens. We’re much better off financially now; we can afford to house 3 cats, not just visit shelter ones!

Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
5 months ago

@bookworm

I love him so much. I go months sometimes without phone calls and just a few text in between. It’s hard, But I wouldn’t want to be with anyone else.

@Dalillama

If it makes you feel better I spent that first date and after it trying to seduce him into having sex with me and he wasn’t getting it till I had to bluntly ask for it when he was dropping me off. like ti was like

“you wanna come inside for a bit for a drink?”

“it’s getting late, won’t your roommates mind?”

“it’s Friday, we have a system. they won’t care”

“yeah but I don’t want to keep you up”

“I wouldn’t mind that at all”

“you sure?”

“I’m asking you if you would like to come in and have sex with me. Would you like to or not?”

*surprised Pikachu face/ Catholic upbringing not computing*

“uh yeah sure, that would be neat”

he actually said to me that having sex would be neat because I caught him off guard so bad.

.45
.45
5 months ago

Able to pay $2,000 plus in rent?

I hope that was somewhat sarcastic, because that would basically make more than 90% of the people I know statistical anomalies…

Dalillama
5 months ago

@Elaine
Mine starts with a casual acquaintance running into me at work and inviting me home for a threesome with him and his girlfriend, neither of whom were the person I’m presently married to. I don’t have any problem with it, but it’s not most people’s cup of meet cute.

Mostly_Lurking
Mostly_Lurking
5 months ago

@Alan

I love it! Some people are so talented.

@Elaine

Aww, you guys literally had a Meet Cute moment. And lol at his adorkable cluelessness.

@Dalillama

Maybe not, but it sounded fun.

.45
.45
5 months ago

@ Surplus

To continue this ridiculousness some more:

“Let’s take “recently” to be the last, say, 3 years. During that time there have been six outages lasting longer than one minute”

If this is real, you are lucky. Where I live, nobody would even bat an eye at six outages a year that were hours or even a couple days long. Anything under a minute we wouldn’t even call an outage, but a mere bump.

That aside, it occurred to me that you are an incredible optimist. I have worked in a factory setting before and it boggles my mind on how many things can go wrong with one piece of machinery, one that is maintained and serviced as per the manual (guidelines which would be written in terms of reasonable practicality, I.E. just barely enough to keep it in working order at a minimum cost).

A power plant would contain a ridiculous number of machines and the machines to support the machines, the people to run the machines, the people to maintain the machines, the people to repair the machines (maintenance is not the magic spell to prevent failure you seem to think), the people to manage all of the above, resulting in an absurd number of fail points and issues, and you look at all of this and expect it to work flawlessly?

Returning to my previous work experience, I have worked in jobs where basically everything more complicated than a pair of pliers broke down in the first few days of me working there. Equipment that was brand new or maintained by people who had worked with this kind of equipment for years without a problem. All kinds of things happen. Tools get misplaced, stolen, break for no apparent reason, people press too hard on a sawblade or something and it snaps, then it is found out that the replacements were never ordered or the wrong ones were sent, the one guy who knows how to run the welder got in a car accident on the way to work, the previous maintenance guy put in all the bolts backward (or shipped the product from the factory that way, see also my car’s suspension), the supply run was boned when it turned out the materials purchased were mislabeled at the store but looked the same to the casual eye…

I could go on for paragraphs, but the point is it is very hard for even a team of well supplied top notch professionals (which is a very rare thing to encounter in the first place) to manage the level of perfection you seem to expect at any given task. Things go wrong, stuff breaks, the most well meaning and best trained people still zig when they should zag sometimes. If the real world worked as well as you believe it should, then it would be easy enough to sue for a hour’s long power outage or a TV schedule being wrong or whatever, because we would all be so used to everything working properly and expect it to be an easy state to achieve, we would all be having meltdowns whenever something did happen.

Don’t get me wrong here, I am not trying to bash you or get you down, but if you continue to pursue this definition of insanity thing where you keep expecting the world to not be the same thing it has been in all of recorded history, you will never be done complaining about reality. You will only be hurting yourself. I dunno what else to tell you. Living life always blowing your top and going into conspiracy theory mode whenever anything you don’t like happens cannot be good for you. You seem like a very high strung cat that cannot handle any changes to its routine and blames its owner or any other humans around for everything.

To go off on a related tangent, honestly, every so often when I consider all the moving parts a car contains and the stresses inflicted on them, how poorly and how little most people maintain theirs, I find it incredibly amazing how long they last and how rarely they actually break down. I mean, there are cars that not only are older than their drivers, but I imagine may even have more hours on the road than their drivers have been alive. When you think about all of the potential points of failure, it almost seems a miracle anyone would willingly involve themselves with such a dangerous piece of equipment that could have a catastrophic malfunction at any time.

Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ gss ex noob

you’ve got an Ian McKellen thing happening

Ooh; thank you. I’m not sure I understand the reference. But I like Sir Ian; so I’m very flattered by that whatever it is!

@ mostly_lurking

Indeed. I’m always amazed by sculpture. Was it Michelangelo who said sculpting was easy? You just have to chip away the bits that don’t look like the subject matter.

I suspect there’s a bit more to it than that!

@ .45

When you think about all of the potential points of failure

And that they were all sourced from the lowest bidder. 🙂

Stuff like this is very reassuring though

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Last edited 5 months ago by Alan Robertshaw
Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
5 months ago

@ .45,

Where I live, nobody would even bat an eye at six outages a year that were hours or even a couple days long. Anything under a minute we wouldn’t even call an outage, but a mere bump.

I don’t think I’d even noticed the given time-span when I first read the comment you’re responding to. I agree with you that 6 outages in 3 years is actually awesome. Where I live we easily have 6 or more outages per winter, and it’s not unusual for them to last most of a day. Put it this way: having a woodstove is prudent where I am (and common), because you will absolutely spend at least a couple days a winter cooking, warming your wash water, and heating your house with it. Heck, our power flickers on and off during thunderstorms…

Contrapangloss
Contrapangloss
5 months ago

@.45

it boggles my mind on how many things can go wrong with one piece of machinery, one that is maintained and serviced as per the manual

Oh, yes. I’m in an engineering group for maintaining cranes (and some other stuff) and yeah. Things break.

The best maintenance program in the world cannot stop fatigue on a material level. Plastics, rubbers, metals subject to bending reversals, paint coatings…

…all those are still going to happen. I swear we’re doing touchup paint and rust prevention all the time.

Some metal things get massively ‘oversized’ to make their fatigue life be longer than their expected service life, but that doesn’t help keep the shaft seals good for that long! And alignments, end gaps, contamination, oil leaks, air leaks, all these things can still happen.

And then older equipment has obsolete replacement parts and argh.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
5 months ago

the level of perfection you seem to expect at any given task.

Oh, I’m not expecting perfection. I’m just expecting that they can do as good a job in 2021 as they did in 2020. Nothing they haven’t already proven is within their capacity.

Where are the people who say they get many hours-long outages every year? I’m guessing rural, served by overhead lines, and maybe in the US or the third world?

bumblebug
bumblebug
5 months ago

Oh, I’m not expecting perfection. I’m just expecting that they can do as good a job in 2021 as they did in 2020. Nothing they haven’t already proven is within their capacity.

Machinery ages. People make mistakes. Damage cascades. Wear and tear happens. And maintenance is insufficient to keep it at bay. This is why cars, computers, refrigerators, washing machines, and all sorts of other mechanical and electrical appliances have lifetimes. Even if you treat them well and care for them, their components will decay. Only a complete overhaul or replacement will keep things working. Even a complete replacement of equipment has possibilities for failure during installation. It’s just not reasonable to expect all machinery to work at the same level all the time.

.45
.45
5 months ago

@ Surplus

You expect the same level of service with the assumption that absolutely nothing has changed in the last few years that could possibly affect anything even related?

And yep, I’m in the middle of the US. Apparently we have worse service than you. Somehow we survive. Stuff happens, life is a full contact sport.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
5 months ago

Machinery ages. People make mistakes. Damage cascades. Wear and tear happens.

And those things should happen roughly equally from year to year.

bumblebug
bumblebug
5 months ago

And those things should happen roughly equally from year to year.

Wear and tear is cumulative. It’s why after 5 years a laptop is considered obsolete. It’s how catastrophic material failure happens (nothing visible for years and then suddenly a steel beam collapses).

Last edited 5 months ago by bumblebug
Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
5 months ago

Surplus, I’m in Canada, just like you. Semi-rural, mix of overhead and buried power lines. Lengthy outages are pretty common. (The community pulls together and we get through, though.)

Your comment seemed dismissive and condescending to me. And I’ll assume it’s due to a lack of knowledge on your part rather than any prejudice, but “third world”? Really?

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/01/08/954820328/memo-to-people-of-earth-third-world-is-an-offensive-term

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
5 months ago

That would apply if we were discussing a single, isolated machine, rather than something much larger like a power grid. There one expects individual parts to fail here and there on a daily basis, even if a given single one lasts years between failures; but for failover capacity and redundancy to limit the visible fallout to end-users, even while maintenance people are kept busy. And one expects these things to average out across the whole extent of the system, as well as from year to year.

Think of a six foot wave in a bathtub vs. on the ocean. In the bathtub, it’s a catastrophe. Your whole bathroom is a huge mess now. On the other hand it is not even noticed much on the ocean, which is covered in waves many of them quite a bit larger than that.

Big systems are also supposed to be resilient systems, with so many parts and enough redundancy that it smooths out the effects of individual component failures.

In fact, the owners of these things are counting on it, because it’s easy to plan and budget if the maintenance costs, the repair costs, and the lost revenues from outages tend to be similar from year to year, but if they vary wildly from year to year there’d be major problems. The 1998 ice storm gave them, and their insurers, fits because it was such a huge outlier. Weather is the big X-factor because a huge, costly storm can throw all of that averaging into a cocked hat. That ocean with its expanse of waves that averages out to being smooth on large time and distance scales isn’t so tidy anymore when a hurricane forms.

But the recent incident did not correspond to any major multi-day excursion of the weather, so remains unexplained.

As does another peculiar thing: that a bunch of people most of whom seem to espouse some degree of economically-left, often downright socialist political position, who normally support the little guy, suddenly are in the giant megacorps’ corner instead if that little guy just so happens to be me on a particular occasion. Here you are now, defending the besmirched honor of my local hydro monopoly when I dare to criticize it and suggest that it might not be playing fair with its customers!

Meanwhile, which community in Canada is this one that gets a lot worse hydro service but where the community pulls together? Where I am, a small city of about 20,000, seems as thoroughly atomized and isolating as, well, everywhere else in this shitty neoliberal political era.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
5 months ago

Two or three of over an hour and several 5 to 20 minute outages per year are normal here. Here being the fourth largest city in the western world.

bumblebug
bumblebug
5 months ago

@Surplus:

I’m sure there are plenty of things that large corporations are doing that cut corners. But my issue (and the reason I’ve commented) is because you seem to be adamant in the belief that they’re out to get you in particular. Everyone wants to provide you with subpar services or make your life difficult. It feels like at least once a week there is someone you want to sue or contact to get things back to how it was and force some company to stop messing with your service or life. You seem to be always ascribing malice to things that can better be explained by incompetence, penny pinching, random chance, and an unequal economic system. Your insistence that someone is out there doing this on purpose stops you from accepting help or suggestions that others offer to alleviate the issues at a level that you can do yourself.

To address your specific argument about fail-safes and averages, those fail-safes are working. There’s a reason it was just your block or neighborhood and not the entire region serviced by the power grid. Residential neighborhoods are more likely to fail than areas with hospitals because there are more back ups around hospitals.

And regarding waves, sure a 6 foot wave in an ocean isn’t much. But put together enough of those waves and let random chance play into it and those waves may synchronize and resonate against one another. And then you’ve got a hurricane.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
5 months ago

Where I am, a small city of about 20,000, seems as thoroughly atomized and isolating as, well, everywhere else in this shitty neoliberal political era.

You know what? I feel like I’ve been pretty patient and sympathetic to you, over time on here. And yet you’re pretty consistently rude and dismissive – not just to me, not even mainly to me, but to many commenters. If you treat people offline the way you treat people online, you might want to consider how that affects other people’s desire to be around you.

I’m on the East Coast. Not willing to give more detail online. When we had a multiple-day power outage after a major, catastrophic blizzard one winter, people were bringing food to neighbours, using their chainsaws to free up blocked driveways where large branches had fallen, and just generally checking in to make sure folks were ok. Your condescending bafflement about how communities can take care of each other (note I am NOT saying this means the POLITICAL situation is fine and dandy) reflects on you and your worldview, not on us.

@ Threp,

Two or three of over an hour and several 5 to 20 minute outages per year are normal here. Here being the fourth largest city in the western world.

Yup. Not just us hicks. 😆

Full Metal Ox
5 months ago

@ Surplus to Requirements:

…I don’t even know how to hold down a normal conversation…

We’ve noticed.

Dalillama
5 months ago

@Mostly Lurking
There’s that. Not a whole lot more to tell, only someone else who lived there had invited a couple of friends for the same reason without coordinating it, and eventually the other two housemates became involved. The following morning I woke up next to one of the latter pair, and we’ve been together since, about 15 years now.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
5 months ago

There was no condescending bafflement. Just curiosity as to why your community behaves so differently from my “community”. All I’ve ever known is isolation, pretty much, outside of family anyway. People interact with me in mostly impersonal ways: transactional (as at the store checkout and the like), generally impersonal (nod when passing, etc.), a few as friendly acquaintance, and plenty as opportunistic dickheads taking cheap shots or similar behavior. I can barely get my own needs met and I have little or no margin for error in a bunch of areas. I’m pretty much on my own. Nobody has my back. Ever.

Full Metal Ox
5 months ago

@Dalillama; @Mostly Lurking:

There’s that. Not a whole lot more to tell, only someone else who lived there had invited a couple of friends for the same reason without coordinating it, and eventually the other two housemates became involved. The following morning I woke up next to one of the latter pair, and we’ve been together since, about 15 years now.

Ohmygod, you were roommates! And there was only one bed!

In short: Dalillama’s Meet Cute is a fanfic.

.45
.45
5 months ago

@ Surplus

It isn’t that we are calling the power companies the most trustworthy and kind hearted organizations on the planet, it is just that we don’t see any reason to believe it is a malicious act or that there is anything we can do about it. (And you seem to frequently assume malice and want us to give you legal advice for something that will be laughed out of court.) Stuff happens. Going the sue happy “Karen” route is just a waste of time and raises your blood pressure over circumstances that are hardly unique to you. I really don’t want to tell you that you need to learn to be more like other people, but other people complain and let it go, not obsess over legal action.

Honestly, I don’t know what you are struggling with, but it seems to me you have serious depression issues and feel like you are completely powerless, at the whim of whatever force decides to mess with you on any given day. The part that makes you come into conflict with the people here is about how you seem to think you are the only person experiencing these forces and it is a deliberate act by these forces, instead of simply an imperfect world filled with assholes and clueless people, in addition to Mother Nature, entropy, and a whole host of powers the most powerful nations in the world can’t do anything about. (Man, I love me a run-on sentence.)

As for nobody ever having your back, well, I don’t like saying this here, as I don’t want to give out too many identifying characteristics, but maybe a little background on me might help you, I dunno.

I was raised homeschooled, with actually very little schooling involved. I was taught the rest of the world was amoral and I should avoid making friends, dating was practically considered a war crime, etc, etc. I was basically brainwashed for twenty years, and when I got out into the world I was like a zoo animal released into the wild with some bizarre expectations that I would readily and easily find a way to succeed in a life I had practically no experience in living.

I went on a downward spiral for quite a few years, unable to relate to people or make friends. I had been assured by my parents that I was better than everyone else, smarter, morally superior, and I could do anything. I couldn’t even manage a bit of small talk with college classmates or do my job properly for love nor money.

I crashed. I had suffered from depression for about as long as I could remember already (turns out friends and social contact is something most of our species finds extremely important for mental and emotional health, go figure), and my utter failure to live up to my parents expections or any standards in society made it all worse.

Although I had tried early on to take some chances and try to make friends when I got into college, the failures pushed me back into the belief system I was taught. The problem was that people were amoral assholes focused on all the wrong things, like hanging out with friends, having fun, drinking, dating, sexing, whatever. Worst of all, they didn’t even realize it, even when I so charmingly pointed it out to their face. They didn’t make sense.

It took me years to realize it wasn’t the rest of the world that didn’t make sense, it was me that didn’t make sense. Many of the assumptions I had about the world were the product of parents in a struggling marriage who eventually came to change their views before I did. (A confusing state of affairs when I was being encouraged to do things that previously were the most unimaginable sins.)

This long rambling thing was sparked by your belief that the world is wrong and against you, something that I had similar beliefs for many years. But I am slowly, way too slowly for my taste, working my way out of it, and learning to embrace life. (Now I’m a sappy greeting card…) I think you can too, but I don’t know how to help you with that. It seems like whenever anyone disagrees with your rants you are dead set on proving to everyone here (the rest of the world) that they don’t make sense. Have you considered, even just for a little bit, that maybe it is you that doesn’t make sense? That you are prioritizing things that ultimately don’t matter that much? That maybe there is a bit of wisdom in the senseless things people do?

I’ll leave you with one last question that occurred to me when reading your last message: You talk of nobody having your back. Whose back do you have?

Dalillama
5 months ago

@Full Metal Ox

Ohmygod, you were roommates! And there was only one bed!

Nah, I was still living with my recently ex-spouse at the time, I didn’t move in there for like two weeks I think.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
5 months ago

I’m pretty much on my own. Nobody has my back. Ever.

Surplus, you deserve to be treated with dignity and respect no matter what, just as every person does…but have you considered that if you’re not being treated with warmer emotions than that, emotions like affection, friendliness, and enthusiasm, it might be due to how you treat people? Do you force others to make the first move, and are you bitter if they don’t? Do you lash out when people try to help you?

Just curiosity as to why your community behaves so differently from my “community”.

I’m not sure it does, really. I’m sure there are people in my community who feel isolated and alone. I think that’s true of every community. I will say, though, that whenever I’ve reached out for help, I’ve been given it. And I try to give it whenever I’m able. And I think that’s what I’ve observed happening, for example when pretty much my whole neighbourhood turned out to help after the blizzard. I bet your community has those informal networks of connection and support too. If you’re not included in them, have you tried to give before you expect to receive…or complain when what you receive isn’t perfect?

This isn’t meant as respectability politics. I certainly know that you can’t be nice at someone who oppresses you until they stop oppressing you. But what you’re dealing with – the sense of loneliness, the lack of friends – that’s not capital-o Oppression. It’s awful, but it’s not systemically enforced. I’ve seen you reject, sometimes quite rudely, offers of help and support on here. I have a hard time believing you’re completely different offline than online.

What I deeply, sincerely believe to be true – what I’ve experienced – is that we all have something to offer, and that this act of offering and reaching out is essential to our humanity. We need, as humans, to find ways to reach out to the people around us. Hope comes from action, not the other way around. The act of reaching out to help – and even a smile can be charity – brings hope even if it’s not reciprocated. You seem very hopeless, and I worry about you.

This became an unintended essay, so that’s it from me.