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Dunning–Kruger effect MGTOW misogyny reddit

“Men are the prize,” declares man who is very clearly not a prize

Over in the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, an excitable fellow by the name of ClutchNes is giving a little pep talk to his peers.

“What society gets wrong and what needs to change is…..the concept that females are the prize,” he declares, setting forth his basic thesis.

no, they are not. Men are prize, NOW MORE THAN EVER.

Let me jazz that up a little for you:

Men are the protector, the provider, those who keep the system running, those who are doing the dirty and demanding jobs.

Have you ever been to a hospital? A nursing home? A female Roller Derby match? Hard to see how any of these would survive more than a couple of hours without women doing a lot of the grunt work.

it’s no surprise that women are extremely entitled and don’t have to fear consequences to take responsibility for their actions, because society is still pretending that women are the prize.

What consequences are women supposed to be avoiding, exactly? If you prick them, do they not bleed? If you tickle them, do they not laugh?

Might want to get permission before doing any of that.

how the fuck are they the prize? they bring nothing but their wet holes to the table,

No, that was Judy Chicago.

can’t even fucking cook

I’m not sure MGTOWs really have any right to criticize anyone else’s cooking.

or take care of the household, don’t bring any useful skills, wasting time on nonsense, overpriced crap and social media, zero to none real hobbies and topics you can discuss with them.

Dude, one of your hobbies is writing poorly reasoned and barely literate screeds about the alleged superiority of men, so, again, I’m not sure you really have much to brag about, hobby-wise.

I don’t get it, fuck gynocentrism and fuck feminism, this world will fucking burn to the ground once the females are in total control.

“The females” aren’t actually all that interested in total control. Unless we’re talking about my cats.

If we are honest, even back then women were nothing else but trophies, a prize for “decent” men, a tool to control the men and make them obedient tax payers, world builders, career men, because women being the prize NEVER made sense, it should always been that men are the prize, the only difference is how to convince men to still get their shit together and be the best man they can be, REGARDLESS of women – and this is what movements like MGTOW are trying to do, that’s the real mindset, philosophy and spirit.

IF MGTOW is supposed to be making you “the best man you could be,” I’d have to say that it is doing a terrible job.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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Chris
Chris
5 months ago

Did all these men just meet one selfish person and decide that all women are like that? I’ve met horrible people, too, of both common genders.

It’s funny that he says “once the females are in control” Just like racists, they’re scared of being treated the way they treat others. And while people may vent at times when angry, very few actually want to harm men or get revenge, again, unlike many men.

Full Metal Ox
5 months ago

Meanwhile, here’s a man arguably Going His Own Way (he’s a widower working for a monastery, with plans eventually to take up vows) who’s found something far more constructive to occupy his time: Jeff Horchoff has established himself as a bee rescuer.

http://www.youtube.com/user/mygracieme

Dalillama
5 months ago

dirty and demanding jobs.

Lol. As always with these types, I challenge this dude to do two shifts in a busy commercial kitchen. I’ve seen one of these macho “I can handle anything” types go out for a smoke break halfway through the shift and just never come back in.

Last edited 5 months ago by Dalillama
Carla van der Meer
Carla van der Meer
5 months ago

Maybe if he actually went away he’d be less obsessed by the sick notion of anyone being seen as a prize. Dude, no one wants you, the door is that way…please be our guest and leave. Just stop whining about women all over the place.

jsrtheta
jsrtheta
5 months ago

The combination of living in a world that bears no relationship to reality, with the certainty that one belongs on the top rung of the ladder by right, is quite striking.

nemo
nemo
5 months ago

Ok im a mgtow but these articles crack me up so well done, gotta admit theres some truth to it sometimes, you should try being a mgtow admin whos job it is to keep all the incels out of certain groups, do you have any idea how many hide under the banner and how much patience it takes? and yeh im not surprised half these dudes got rolled by the misus or rejected, crappy job plus beer gut, poor hygeine and poor comms aint gona get you that victoria secrets model lol

Mog
Mog
5 months ago

@Full Metal Ox
That‘s it… I know quite a few men who have rich and fulfilling lives without having or seeking a significant other. None of them are facing the persecution that MGTOWs claim, and rather than being alternately hunted or shamed by bands of female harpies, they get along pretty well with women platonically and professionally. I guess it probably would be harder if they wanted to work with children, sadly, but some of them are nurses and one runs a yarn store, and I actually think most women tend to admire them for thriving in traditionally female environments.

I suspect it’s not entirely easy diverging a little from the social norm, but just being a single man is not a subject of oppression in mainstream society, and it’s not even that much marginalised. MGTOWs seem to be floundering for a reason why no one likes them, while not admitting they might have some personal responsibility for it.

Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
5 months ago

Impressive that this is one sentence:

If we are honest, even back then women were nothing else but trophies,

So even in times gone by, women were trophies, their only purpose being to enhance the status of the men they were with,

a prize for “decent” men,

a prize, yes, but the kind of prize that is handed out to men, not the kind of prize that a man is, which is a prize that has merit on its own,

a tool to control the men

and women are not only a trophy and a prize but also actually a tool that controls men,

and make them obedient tax payers, world builders, career men,

forcing men to pay their taxes and go to work and build worlds,

because women being the prize NEVER made sense,

because women are more of a Crackerjack prize, not the prize in the way that men, the payers of taxes, builders of worlds, and pursuers of careers (because women forced then to do it), are,

it should always been that men are the prize,

but despite the fact that women-as-prizes force men to pay taxes, build worlds, and pursue careers and thus become men-as-prizes, women have never actually been the prize, it’s always been men who are the true prizes — but not everybody knows that,

the only difference is how to convince men to still get their shit together and be the best man they can be,

but everyone will come to know that men are the real prizes once men, those people who pay taxes, build worlds, and pursue careers because women force them to do it, start doing those things on their own,

REGARDLESS of women

without women (those fake prizes) pushing them to pay taxes, build worlds, and pursue careers,

– and this is what movements like MGTOW are trying to do, that’s the real mindset, philosophy and spirit.

and Men Going Their Own Way (“men going their own way” means men going the same way as women, both online and IRL, so that men can call women names and threaten them) will inspire men, the true prizes, to pay taxes, build worlds, and pursue careers without having a woman to spur them on.

Last edited 5 months ago by Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Jon
Jon
5 months ago

Its mind boggling to me that Reddit still allows this rubbish after banning the gender critical subreddits.

Anyway reading the thread it unsurprisingly quickly morphs into miggies howling on how awful it is women won’t get back into the kitchen and make them a sandwich and how they miss the good old days when women could/had to rely on one man to well feed themselves.

Making it seem that they’re not content to go their own way.

Like this one post got 13 upvotes:
”Society used to prioritize marriage from the standpoint of the importance of having children.
Having a successful marriage in pre-feminist times required the wife to offer something of value besides what’s between her legs and for the man to offer value beyond what’s between his legs.
Men worked to provide money and resources. Women worked to make a home and raise children. Neither party could succeed unless the other party did their job.
Today, women compete to do something that men can do too (usually better): career-building. The process has required them to sacrifice their value in the market. In the bargain, they’ve made marriage too risky of a proposition considering the specter of likely divorce always present on the horizon.
I don’t expect things to get better in my lifetime. But I do expect them to get better eventually. The day must come when women realize that when they compete in career-making, they will lose because that’s always been a man’s game. And if they return to homemaking as their vocation, the possibility of divorce will all but vanish.
As always, the ball is in their court.”

Also let’s ignore the fact the majority working mothers who are married do like the vast majority of the childcare work in addition to bringing in an income.

Jon
Jon
5 months ago

It’s funny that he says “once the females are in control” 

@Chris
You know this would hint that women aren’t already in control. So men have to be in control right? That would seem like a contradiction in miggie dogma. Until you remember the current tenet of that dogma is women bad.
Women don’t work? Bad. They’re so Lazy. How come men have to do everything? They just leech.
Women work? Bad. How come they don’t stop being selfish and look after kids! Someone has to. How come they try to take men duties? They’re not as good at it.
Women exists in anywhere at any place at anytime: Bad. How come that place couldn’t have given that place to a man?

MLBlue
MLBlue
5 months ago

I supposed if We Hunted the Mammoth ever wanted to change its name might as well go with the equally inane We are the Prize. (Mammoth 2 Electric Boogaloo NOW MORE THAN EVER)

Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ full metal ox

Thank you for that. Please have this one.

Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

Left to their own devices, bees get quite creative with hive design. When they’re not making valentines day decorations; they build air conditioning units (This airflow pattern keeps the temperature in the hive constant)

comment image

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
5 months ago

God-fucking-damn the Republicans for creating this climate 🙁

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/06/16/shop-j16.html

Elizabeth
Elizabeth
5 months ago

This little nugget caught my eye:

or take care of the household, don’t bring any useful skills, wasting time on nonsense, overpriced crap and social media, zero to none real hobbies and topics you can discuss with them.

First – *women* waste time on social media? Does all their reddit BS not count? And their attacks on Twitter posts they don’t like? etc. etc. etc.

Second – as a person whose life revolves around her hobbies (and I use that term reluctantly – the things I do go way beyond a “hobby”, and don’t get me going on my most despised term of all, “maker”), what do they consider “real” hobbies? I doubt many of these fools are doing much of anything worthwhile. My first thought is something traditionally “manly”, like woodworking, or blacksmithing…but my gut tells me they aren’t accomplishing much in that area, because it takes actual patience, work, and drive to master those skills (true of any “hobby”, of course). You have to be willing to learn and focus on improving yourself and your abilities. Do I think any of them would actually apply themselves like that?

F No.

Grace
Grace
5 months ago

You’ll see a lot of women doing grunt work at a male roller derby bout, too. There’s no restriction on who can be an SO or an NSO.

Also, “female roller derby match” is a redundancy. Yes, male roller derby exists. But roller derby is one of the very few sports where, when you say, “roller derby”, the default player is a woman, and the overwhelming majority of players are women.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
5 months ago

The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists has a Doomsday Clock indicating how close we might be to nuclear war.

I’m wondering if we need a “how close to a new holocaust” version of that, one per country.

To judge by this:

https://truthout.org/articles/lara-trump-says-people-living-on-southern-border-should-get-guns-and-be-ready/

the United States’s would be at about one minute to midnight now.

Chris Oakley
Chris Oakley
5 months ago

This guy’s a prize, all right… a booby prize.
@Surplus To Requirements: Are you sure that clock hasn’t already gone past midnight?

Karalora
Karalora
5 months ago

@Elizabeth

First – *women* waste time on social media? Does all their reddit BS not count? And their attacks on Twitter posts they don’t like? etc. etc. etc.

No, see, men are the PRIZE! They are inherently valuable! Therefore they are entitled to leisure time on social media or however else they choose to spend it! It’s only wasted time when women do it, because those useless weaklings should be spending all their time cooking and cleaning and looking after the children!

Re: the hobbies thing, you notice that whenever these jerks start talking about Important and Useful Male Hobbies vs. Stupid Female Hobbies, they never actually list examples of either?

sarah_kay_gee
sarah_kay_gee
5 months ago

“zero to none real hobbies” excuse me while I fall down laughing. If I can find time for it between collecting fountain pens and vintage cameras, writing to my many far-flung pen friends, photographing abandoned buildings and running a Facebook group dedicated to that, antiquing, doing cross stitch and embroidery, making collages, dabbling in watercolors, updating the journal I’ve kept for almost 40 years, writing haiku, making diamond paintings, and of course reading. While working full-time hours and cooking food that is a damn site better than the hideous slop that MGTOWs like to brag about.

Last edited 5 months ago by sarah_kay_gee
Archer
Archer
5 months ago

Anyone else start thinking Highlander when they saw that headline? Anyone? Anyone?

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqgV6KARzWA&w=560&h=315%5D

Last edited 5 months ago by Archer
Jon
Jon
5 months ago

Re: the hobbies thing, you notice that whenever these jerks start talking about Important and Useful Male Hobbies vs. Stupid Female Hobbies, they never actually list examples of either?

@sarah_kay_gee

I think the vagueness is there in part to allow other misogynists to fill in the gaps with their own. Avoid stepping on the toes of other misogynists who likely don’t have hobbies that serve instrumental goal.
You know like playing video games for fun.
They’re supposed go “yeah my hobbies are certainly better than those dumb femoids”
It could be watching movies or ranting about women online being stuck up.

Luzbelitx
5 months ago

@Alan

Sorry to be the killjoy here, but the heart shaped beehive is actually the result of a person guiding it.

I know, I was sad too but the real story is heartwarming noetheless:

We Regret To Inform You The Heart-Shaped Honeycomb Is Not What The Internet Says It Is

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
5 months ago

They’ve changed it up. Instead of my power, today they keep remotely causing my Bell Home Hub to hang, interrupting my activities and forcing me to go and manually reboot it (and then wait around three minutes for it to be up and running fully again).

This is harassment. How do I expose whoever’s orchestrating it and force them to stop?

Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
5 months ago

@Surplus to Requirements

dude get help. last time I’m ever saying it to you. your paranoids and going through delusions

Mrs. Obed Marsh
Mrs. Obed Marsh
5 months ago

The idea that the majority of women in the past spent their days puttering around the house doing … whatever, we don’t need to know the details of what they did, it wasn’t as important as the Great Men and the Wars and the Buildings and whatnot – is such ahistorical BS. At least in the West (I don’t know as much about other parts of the world, shame on me) women worked a lot of different jobs: farming, brewing, crafting, running businesses, teaching, healing, writing manuscripts, managing large households, etc. There were a few decades in the twentieth century when middle-class married women weren’t supposed to work outside the home, but that’s it.

https://going-medieval.com/2019/05/30/on-women-and-work/

epitome of incomrepehensibility

Agreed with @Elizabeth and @sarah_kay_gee. To the MGTOW, it’s not a “real hobby” if women do it.

I mean, I’m not always regular or committed about hobbies (yay, ADHD) but I’ve also got a fairly long list: writing (OK, more like my main goal in life, but tutoring is mainly how I make money at the moment), music composition, cooking, beading, making batik cards, being in an artisans club* and a Finnegans Wake reading group, etc.

Nothing terribly “useful” except for cooking, but all real.

*Interesting thing about this particular artisans club: all the people doing woodworking at the moment are men, maybe because it’s been considered more masculine, but the woman who makes “delicate” stained glass and glass sculptures arguably uses the most dangerous materials (power tools, a lot of things with sharp edges, a very hot stove).

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
5 months ago

Weeks without anything of the sort. Then four days straight of frequent, disruptive interruptions. Obviously something changed four days ago. I didn’t start doing anything differently on that date, so this change is external to me. The weather has been all over the map during those four days, but was not exceptionally inclement at the times of any of the interrupting events, and there had been similar weather during the preceding several weeks at various times, so it cannot be explained as a change in the weather. Which leaves the choices of humans other than me. It follows that somewhere out there is a human who decided, four days ago, to change something, and a consequence of that decision is that I have since then been frequently interrupted and my tasks disrupted where that had not been occurring before said decision.

I want that human held accountable for the consequences of the choice they made four days ago, and forced to reverse their decision of four days ago and put everything back as it had been previous to that time by undoing whatever it is that they did four days ago.

There’s nothing paranoid about this. It all follows logically from the observational data. Someone changed something, that change is evidently having hugely disruptive effects on the infrastructure serving my home, that change is therefore bad, and they should therefore be compelled to reverse that change.

Indeed, the change — whatever it is — is not merely bad, it is illegal; I did not sign any agreement to any reduction in quality of service of any kind, so any such reduction carried out unilaterally by a utility I’ve contracted with constitutes a breach of that contract on their part, and if a third party has caused the reduction they are guilty of tortious interference with that contract. In either case, the responsible party has committed a civil tort against me. I have the right to sue them for what they’ve done, if it comes to that.

And, of course, if it was done deliberately and with malice aforethought, it constitutes harassment. That they have not figured out that they screwed up and undone it of their own volition after four days is strong evidence that they are doing it intentionally.

Consider this: if someone steps on your toes once and promptly says “Oops, sorry about that!” and is then careful not to do it again, then it was likely an accident and to call it deliberate would be paranoid. But if they do it repeatedly, don’t apologize, and you said “ouch!” the first three times and yet they kept doing it, it would be fair to assume it was happening in bad faith at that point, and indeed it would take an uncommon degree of gullibility not to decide by then that the toe-stepper was being, at best, purposely negligent (that is, they did not care if they stepped on people’s toes and just barged around in the full knowledge that they’d get someone’s tootsies every so often, but didn’t aim at anyone’s in particular) and, given that yours in particular got hit four times in a short interval, they probably were aiming at you on purpose.

Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ luzbelitx

 the heart shaped beehive is actually the result of a person guiding it.

Yeah well, as far as I’m concerned the bees still own the IP rights!

Heh, but thanks for that. That’s actually really useful for one of our ongoing discussions about animal personhood. And copyright owning animals is part of that!

epitome of incomrepehensibility

@Surplus – Yes, but you don’t know if it was the mistake of one person or several, or a failure of the machinery, etc. And an electrical outage almost certainly wasn’t aimed at you in particular, as it would affect other people on your block. I mean, it sucks and it makes sense to be frustrated, but I doubt it’s personal.

But I’m one to talk. I’m currently a bit disappointed since I just got a poem rejected after deciding to be more proactive about sending stuff. Now, I’m not entirely convinced I’m good at poetry in general, but some people liked this one when I read it out loud, so I was foolishly thinking, “Eh, it’s good and I’m sending it to a tiny little journal, so they’ll probably just publish it, why not!!”

Yeah, no. But it doesn’t mean the thing is horrible. Maybe it’s just that my poetry style is kind of goofy usually, and people want something more serious. But then there are some amazing writers, and I’m just, “How do you do that with words???” so I’m probably not the best either.

Dalillama
5 months ago

@Epitome
Don’t let that discourage you, any writer who hasn’t got an advance from the publisher before they even start can expect around a 1:30-100 (depending on the particular market) ratio of accepted manuscripts to submissions.

Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ epitome

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mouse sparrow
mouse sparrow
5 months ago

@Surplus to Requirements

No, nobody is after you specifically.
I highly doubt you’re the only one in your area experiencing problems.
Like it or not, things just sometimes happen that isn’t their fault.
Nothing is foolproof and works as expected every minute of every hour of every day.
To expect so is foolish.
The world isn’t a perfectly running machine.
You need to stop thinking people are purposefully out to annoy you specifically, you’re not that important.

Luzbelitx
5 months ago

@epitome

As a frustrated writer who became a journalist instead, and in the same line as Alan’s evidence, I can share this bit of wisdom: publishers are NOT the measure of good writing.

I know one can’t really become an author if no one publishes one’s work,but STILL. Publishers suck at telling good writing from bad. They look at what can be sold. And even then, they often misjudge. Badly.

@Alan

I’m more of a copyleft person myself, but as long as there is intellectual property, I’m 100% for animals owning their work.

Last edited 5 months ago by Luzbelitx
Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

I got my first rejection letter over 25 years ago; and there have been others since. But only this week I was commissioned to write an article for a prestigious legal journal.

Their exact words were “We’re having to go online this quarter, so we need filler material”.

But I can read between the lines.

mouse sparrow
mouse sparrow
5 months ago

@Alan

Oh, I agree.
Humans may have helped them with the shape, but the bees did the actual work.

@Luzbelitx

Oh yes, I know what you mean.
Whenever I think of how many amazing poems and stories are rejected each day I fume.
It’s the same with movies or television shows.
Good, amazing ideas are rejected for repeats of what is known to bring in money.

Last edited 5 months ago by mouse sparrow
Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ mouse sparrow

That’s the very issue in regards to that “lost Leonardo” Salvator Mundi painting. And whether it’s worth 425 million dollars; or one thousand dollars. (Spoiler: it’s the latter)

But yeah, if the bees had legal standing; they almost certainly would be regarded as the creators of the work.

Dalillama
5 months ago

@Alan
Only for that specific expression of the idea certainly, and even then only partially. The London Philharmonic may have rights to their recording of Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony, but Beethoven still gets full credit for the original score.

Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ dali

Yeah. In the trade the IP rights in a specific recording are called ‘mechanicals’ btw; in case you want to hobnob with A&R people (they often have entertainment allowances so I’d recommend it)

Funnily enough though I’m literally reading something about that right now!

http://copyrightblog.kluweriplaw.com/2021/06/16/remixing-and-remastering-music-in-us-copyright-law-some-reflections-after-arty-v-marshmello/

Moggie
Moggie
5 months ago

@Alan, “Nigel Topnbottom”?

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
5 months ago

Men are the prize?

Well, Mr. Parasol woke me up this morning to give me a cuddle and wish me a happy birthday, so I guess he’s a prize. I prefer to call him my partner in marriage and in life. Also occasionally Mr. Cute Butt.

Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ moggie

There’s much mystery about that letter. Brian Epstein stuck by the story; and said the decision was justified on the basis of the Beatles’ terrible audition. Dick Rowe, the head of A&R at Decca however said it wasn’t his decision. He said he asked a chap called Mike Smith to choose between the Beatles and the Tremeloes. Smith went with the latter just for convenience sake. They lived nearer.

The relevant parties all knew each other though so the letter may well have been an in-joke.

The fact is though, Decca did turn them down!

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
5 months ago

I’m currently a bit disappointed since I just got a poem rejected after deciding to be more proactive about sending stuff.

I’d call it a semi-win. After all, you don’t get a rejection if you don’t submit, right?

The one of mine you’ve looked at some of has 18 rejections currently – most along the lines of “we like it but we can’t sell it.” 😛

Last edited 5 months ago by Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
.45
.45
5 months ago

@ Surplus

But by sheer virtue of living in society, you are in essence in the middle of a crowd getting your toes stepped on by random people who didn’t even look in your direction while they are driven to and fro by wind and rain, earthquakes, crumbling flooring… this analogy is getting away from me, but this honest belief on your part every other post that a particular someone/organization/upper power is intentionally/maliciously focusing on you and usually you alone is… questionable at best. (No, I will not be convinced by your six page essay on all the fairly mundane problems that happen to you on a not statistically significant basis.)

As for the original post, well it puts me in mind of the old line “Optimists think we live in the best of all worlds. Pessimists also think that.” What if MGTOW really has helped this guy become the best man he can be?

GSS ex-noob
GSS ex-noob
5 months ago

And yes, we are all dumber for having read that.
(Love the 80s version, David.)

Depending on the compensation, the bees may have made a “work for hire”, for which they get a flat fee and the human who put out the heart would own the work and the IP including copyright.

Also I don’t think the bees have tiny little wills to leave the IP to the next generation of workers.

Bees are interesting and useful, unlike miggies.

Miggies should stop eating honey and using wax, since the male bees are few in number and only used once for reproduction, then the rest of the time it’s the queen and her sisters doing the whole thing. Females! Working! Raising children! Only valuing one male for what’s between his legs! Dun dun DUUUUNNNN!

Maybe to be safe, they should extend that to everything that’s pollinated by bees… they mostly don’t eat fruit and veggies anyway, right?

.45
.45
5 months ago

@GSS ex-noob

If I remember one of David’s finds correctly, some slightly boiled green beans are acceptable MGTOW fare, insolong as they accompany something manly, like steaks that barely touched the pan.

Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ Elaine

Bit O/T; but your blokey may find this interesting.

epitome of incomrepehensibility

@Dalillama, @Luzbelitx, @Alan – aw, thanks for the kind words!! (and pictures – I have mixed feelings about Plath as a person, but she could definitely write).

I guess my frustration was more about the fact that I let small things upset me and then I avoid stuff/waste time. But y’all are right – I shouldn’t get discouraged. When I try to get people interested in my novel it’s going to be much much more work.

@Threp – I was going to suggest a journal to you, but then I remembered it went out of business. 🙁 (It was called Storyteller – it was based in Canada and published short genre fiction.)

I wonder if there’s anything specializing in adventure-type stories? Today when I was making a list of writing magazines, I found a few focused on SFF and horror.

Last edited 5 months ago by epitome of incomrepehensibility
Mostly_Lurking
Mostly_Lurking
5 months ago

@nemo

So are you one of those ultra-rare migs that are actually going their own way instead of whining about women 24/7?

But what, exactly, did women do to make you decide to avoid them forever? You know there are assholes of both (/all) genders, right?

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
5 months ago

@Epitome of Incomprehensibility:

Yes, but you don’t know if it was the mistake of one person or several, or a failure of the machinery, etc.

A step-function change, such as occurred four days ago, very likely has a single cause. Any other explanation has to invoke “coincidence”: two separate entities decided to start treating me worse at the exact same time, on the same single day during a span of months or more.

@mouse sparrow:

Nothing is foolproof and works as expected every minute of every hour of every day.

True, but random failures (and bad weather, etc.) are random. The problems I have that are attributable to “nothing is foolproof” should be distributed fairly evenly over time. Large step-function changes in my quality of life can only result from two types of cause: a single huge thing (e.g., were I to get a cancer diagnosis or some such, or a tornado struck my home, or etc.) or else a change in policy somewhere (private or public sector) that throws me (and perhaps a larger chunk of the population) under the bus.

There’s no identifiable isolated, natural cause for the recent incidents along the lines of a tornado or whatever, so it’s a policy shift somewhere that happened four days ago and has resulted in reduced QoS from at least two utility companies in my area. Likely it was a Ford regime decision lowering standards for utility providers, that they were all quick to exploit to start cutting costs by cutting corners, given that there’s no logical reason for the phone and electric companies to collude directly with each other as they are not nominally in competition with each other.

Actually, there may be an even earlier sign of this QoS reduction. Which makes sense: it would take time for reduced preventive maintenance to cause enough cumulative damage to start causing service outages. Things would spend at least a few days quietly rusting, wearing thin, running low on coolant or lube, etc., before something actually snapped.

Starting about two weeks ago, the electronic program guide on my TV service started lying to me. Its listings started to be very much less reliable than before in predicting what I’d actually find if I tuned in any particular channel at any particular time. Its accuracy fell through the floor, from no errors in several months and maybe one or two a year for the past several years to literally hundreds of errors in the span of two weeks.

The TV service and internet here come from the same giant greedy megacorp.

So, the actual policy change reducing quality control at utilities was probably two weeks ago, or a bit more. They immediately fired their double-checker for the program guide (and errors promptly started proliferating there) and also immediately started skimping on maintenance of the infrastructure. The hydro company also did the latter. The maintenance corner-cutting took until four days ago to start causing power failures, and until one day ago to start causing glitchy networking that freezes my modem.

Unfortunately, a google search for “ontario government utility regulation” scoped to the past month doesn’t turn up any obvious candidates in the first page of results. Most likely the press has been silent, complicit with the interests of the wealthy as is so often the case these days, but it seems to have flown below the radar of activist groups as well. Someone with better research tools might be able to find out exactly what happened.

Whenever I think of how many amazing poems and stories are rejected each day I fume.

It’s the same with movies or television shows.

Good, amazing ideas are rejected for repeats of what is known to bring in money.

I’ve been thinking about this, and related things, for a while now. The related things include:

  • The melting pot of social media, in which nothing gets much attention except if you’re famous.
  • The uselessness of online dating, where you’re thrown up against three or four billion competitors and inevitably won’t rank in the top 10.
  • The overall atomization of society.

The issue is the same: the “global village” is a cacophonous mob in which no individual voice can be heard unless they have a megaphone. Which the wealthy can buy and the already-famous can borrow, but nobody else will have one.

The problem is too much competition, so you only ever hear from the best of the best (or, often, the best self-promoters, or those backed by shadowy wealthy forces, even when mediocre; and a smattering of, essentially, lottery winners).

What we have here is a scaling problem, combined with a winner-take-all, all-or-nothing system for allocating attention.

The solution has to involve some kind of relocalization. Some of it in meatspace, through a revitalization of the physical public commons — we need a physical space that isn’t corporate-owned and run for private profit, is oriented around gathering and socializing rather than just-passing-through, and isn’t monopolized by one particular belief system (unlike most remaining legacy such spaces, which tend to be churches plus a smattering of things like Masonic lodges and whatnot).

I’m wondering if the public libraries could be revitalized in some way. They’d need to branch out, and there’d need to be parts that lay outside of the “Shhh! People reading” zone, if people are to socialize there. This would require expanding them physically, adding a few “lounge” areas (some “shh” reading/study oriented, some not, built so sound from the latter won’t readily carry to the former) and maybe activity things (board games, jigsaw puzzles, a snack machine or two) to attract people even when there aren’t already other people there. Free, minimally-regulated WiFi a must.

Even this might have scaling issues; ideally there’d be a public lounge space in every city block and, in denser areas, one per apartment building, though the latter can’t be in the building except if the building is public housing if it is to not be a privately-owned-for-profit space. One single one in a town of 20,000 people would not cut it.

(It’s odd that cities have public outdoor parks, but no indoor equivalent for things that either just work better indoors away from wind and bugs in general, and for during bad weather.)

Online, there needs to be something similar. There’s a well known phenomenon of online spaces working well until they get popular, and then going to hell in a handcart and ending up either a smoking crater (AOL, Usenet, MySpace), a recruiting ground for fascists (Reddit and the chans), or a homogenized, bland, monetized corporate space (Facebook, Tumblr, DeviantArt, YouTube, assorted MMORPGs). The latter fate often follows acquisition by a large tech corporation (Google being a recurring culprit), though Facebook simply grew into a large tech corporation once it bumped off its only serious competitor, MySpace.

The way to avoid this would seem to have been discovered, ironically, by the giant tech corporations behind the MMORPGs: instanced dungeons. No, I’m serious. We need a way to let the community become multiple communities instead of huge and homogenized, and having it make most of the people invisible to most of the other people (most of the time) outside some little circle seems to be the key. Facebook actually almost managed it. It has groups, but those are topic specific (much like churches, and corporate-owned meatspace venues; where what we need is explicitly topic-free spaces), and it has friending, but it’s individual and atomizing. Hypothetically we’d want a Facebook-alike where one has groups not by topic but just of people. The oft-leveled criticism of echo chambers is actually what we would be aiming for here, or perhaps even just random. But the idea is to have something like a bunch of topic-less “rooms” or something with a capacity limit of some sort, say 100, and automatic removal for a long enough period of inactivity. There’d also have to be a way to eject troublemakers; perhaps a person can propose to mute or boot someone, and the system displays nothing to anyone else about this but if a second person proposes to mute or boot the same someone within a short enough interval of time, then it puts it up for a vote, and a 2/3 supermajority or something can vote to eject someone from the room for an amount of time that escalates on repeated bootings from the same room within a short period. (There’d also have to be site-wide bans for serious stuff: hacking attempts, large scale commercial spamming, illegal porn uploading, etc., with a Wikipedia-like rotating board of arbitrators empowered to “peek” into any activity on the site to deal with such matters.)

The hope would be that the “rooms” (and anyone could spawn a new one or join a non-full one) would attract people to self-organize into ones that formed into communities of people with similar interests or outlooks, who could simply socialize there. The size cap would have to be large enough that there would usually be a few active members online at any given time and small enough that it wouldn’t become a cacophony of competition for attention. Auxiliary features might include DMs and perhaps some assortment of games: quizzes, cards, chess, etc. (no stakes and no scorekeeping that persists after a single game — we don’t want it to become too competitive). There’d also be a limit on how many rooms someone could be a member of at one time, though maybe one could lurk (read, but not participate) at any of them. (If someone wants privacy, that’s what DMs are for.)

Of course, it would take someone with money and resources beyond those available to me to take a stab at building any of this … and it would need a defense against takeover and homogenization by the megacorps. This means it would almost certainly have to be a user-owned cooperative, or else backed by a non-profit similar to the Wikimedia Foundation and the Free Software Foundation. The former would mean having a paid membership tier, but that needn’t confer any privileges beyond a “paid member” badge on one’s public profile and, of course, voting rights in sitewide administrative decisionmaking. A paid membership tier is probably needed anyway to generate revenue to keep it running, given that it ought to be a fully noncommercial space, which means no ads and no monetizing of other sorts (e.g. selling user data).

In the longer run, there need to be smaller scale (municipal, or even neighborhood) live venues, museums, galleries, and publishers as well, so that artists are not immediately thrown into competition with the entire planet (or the English-speaking subset, or etc.) if they want to get a foot in the provebial door. These probably do need to allow some forms of monetization, though they should also be publicly subsidized and free or very low cost at the point of entry for public browsing and consumption. Monetization could perhaps be accomplished by selling originals and print/physical copies, with digital being free; sales revenue being divided between the venue/publisher and the author in some way. These venues too would ideally be non-profit, unlike the legacy publishing industry, recording industry, and Hollywood, allowing the digital tier to be free and the split with the author to be more generous to the author than with the legacies.

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