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Dunning–Kruger effect MGTOW misogyny reddit

“Men are the prize,” declares man who is very clearly not a prize

Over in the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, an excitable fellow by the name of ClutchNes is giving a little pep talk to his peers.

“What society gets wrong and what needs to change is…..the concept that females are the prize,” he declares, setting forth his basic thesis.

no, they are not. Men are prize, NOW MORE THAN EVER.

Let me jazz that up a little for you:

Men are the protector, the provider, those who keep the system running, those who are doing the dirty and demanding jobs.

Have you ever been to a hospital? A nursing home? A female Roller Derby match? Hard to see how any of these would survive more than a couple of hours without women doing a lot of the grunt work.

it’s no surprise that women are extremely entitled and don’t have to fear consequences to take responsibility for their actions, because society is still pretending that women are the prize.

What consequences are women supposed to be avoiding, exactly? If you prick them, do they not bleed? If you tickle them, do they not laugh?

Might want to get permission before doing any of that.

how the fuck are they the prize? they bring nothing but their wet holes to the table,

No, that was Judy Chicago.

can’t even fucking cook

I’m not sure MGTOWs really have any right to criticize anyone else’s cooking.

or take care of the household, don’t bring any useful skills, wasting time on nonsense, overpriced crap and social media, zero to none real hobbies and topics you can discuss with them.

Dude, one of your hobbies is writing poorly reasoned and barely literate screeds about the alleged superiority of men, so, again, I’m not sure you really have much to brag about, hobby-wise.

I don’t get it, fuck gynocentrism and fuck feminism, this world will fucking burn to the ground once the females are in total control.

“The females” aren’t actually all that interested in total control. Unless we’re talking about my cats.

If we are honest, even back then women were nothing else but trophies, a prize for “decent” men, a tool to control the men and make them obedient tax payers, world builders, career men, because women being the prize NEVER made sense, it should always been that men are the prize, the only difference is how to convince men to still get their shit together and be the best man they can be, REGARDLESS of women – and this is what movements like MGTOW are trying to do, that’s the real mindset, philosophy and spirit.

IF MGTOW is supposed to be making you “the best man you could be,” I’d have to say that it is doing a terrible job.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
4 months ago

@ .45, I love your run-on sentences. If you and I teamed up we could write LOTR-length comments!

.45
.45
4 months ago

@ Bookworm

Isn’t the record some novel where the author managed a run-on sentence several pages about clothes or something?

I might do an internet search about that, check out my competition…

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
4 months ago

.45, while you’re checking that out, look up the Harry Potter chapter (?) written by predictive text 😁

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
4 months ago

@.45:

circumstances that are hardly unique to you.

Quibble: things like power outages might not, per se, be unique to me, but the effects, when combined with my circumstances, are pretty darn close. Since I have very little of any kind of life that isn’t online, or involving computer work of various sorts, combined with having very limited transportation options, shutting the power off to my home is tantamount to throwing me in solitary confinement. Without a trial, appeals process, or even so much as probable cause for an arrest, and without telling me when my sentence will be up. Just blank walls, a floor, and a ceiling until God knows when.

Really, given these facts I ought to be exempted from these things, but I haven’t the first clue how to even begin whatever nightmarish and byzantine bureaucratic process would undoubtedly be involved in applying for one.

completely powerless, at the whim of whatever force decides to mess with you on any given day

Well, of course, since I lack the money or political clout that seems to be needed to be able to say “frog” and have assorted bureaucrats, technicians, and miscellaneous functionaries say “how high?”

I expect rich people can get their power restored in an expedited fashion, and get more reliable service to start with, but I don’t see any way that I can get the same level of service without getting a lot of money, or the right connections, first. Same with everything else of such a nature.

Of course even the rich and connected can get hit by severe storms, earthquakes, and other things like that that intrinsically can’t be bargained with. But the human systems and people around them take a lot more care not to step on their toes than they do not to step on mine, don’t they?

Whose back do you have?

Whose would I have? I’d need to be accepted and connected with people more, wouldn’t I?

@bookworm:

I bet your community has those informal networks of connection and support too. If you’re not included in them, have you tried to give before you expect to receive?

I don’t have anything to give. Not that I can spare. If I donated a chunk of my emergency fund it’s a sure bet there’d be an emergency right afterward and no longer enough money to survive it. And all I’d get for the donation would be an impersonal thank-you note and a receipt for claiming a deduction from my (non-existent) income tax, probably delivered in the form of a web site response. I don’t see such a thing leading to “informal networks of connection and support”.

I’ve seen you reject … offers of help and support on here.

Unfortunately, most of those have tended to either assume I had access to resources (most commonly, a car) that I lack or to be completely orthogonal to the actual problem. Sometimes both at once. For instance, someone suggested therapy (which I’d be able to afford if I stumbled onto a winning lotto ticket blowing like a tumbleweed down the street, maybe) as a solution to the unstable goddamn power grid. I don’t see how that would magically give me more control over when my gadgets and gizmos get switched off, rebooted, and etcetera. What I need is more power over my own immediate environment and circumstances, but as far as I can tell the only way to get that is a threefold or more jump in my income, and of course I’ve no way to get that. (With it, though, I could move to a house with a yard, and then I’d have somewhere I could stick a generator without getting carbon monoxide poisoning, to say nothing of being able to afford the darn thing. Therapy? That and a dollar would get me a Coke from a drink machine.)

Contrapangloss
Contrapangloss
4 months ago

@Alan

I forgot to post earlier that that is a very impressive wood carving you found there. That tree must have been massive! I grew up somewhere with trees that were (at most) a foot in diameter. The existence of gigantic trees is still constantly mindblowing, even though I now live somewhere with kinda big ones.

And then the artistry of being able to carve something so big that you cannot see how the piece you’re working on fits with the whole thing is also impressive.

Dalillama
4 months ago
epitome of incomrepehensibility

@Full Metal Ox, I’m sorry, I don’t mean to attack you personally, but I don’t think this comment is fair:

@ Surplus to Requirements:

…I don’t even know how to hold down a normal conversation…

We’ve noticed.

I mean, I often can’t hold a “normal” (what’s normal?) conversation either, but that shouldn’t stop me from writing or talking to people. I see that you were frustrated there, but please don’t be discouraging. Idk if you’re neurotypical or not, but it’s rough on people who aren’t when we get comments like that.

Last edited 4 months ago by epitome of incomrepehensibility
epitome of incomrepehensibility

@Surplus – For what it’s worth, I like you and I enjoy reading most of what you write. E.g. what you wrote at the end of the first page about community spaces.

Yes, I think you fixate on minor problems sometimes, but so do I (in my case it’s because of anxiety, as I’m sure you’ve noticed).

Anyway, the above doesn’t do anything for you materially, but if you don’t mind me asking, is your degree in anything related to computer science? I have a friend who works in that field and she may be able to suggest some jobs/resources/etc. Now, I’m not certain this will work and you can tell I’m in a completely unrelated field, but it may be worth a try.

Let me know if you would be interested and I can ask David to send you her email address (I would need to ask her too).

Last edited 4 months ago by epitome of incomrepehensibility
Full Metal Ox
4 months ago

@epitome of incomrepehensibility; @Surplus to Requirements:

My apologies; I shouldn’t have sniped at you, especially when I myself have been pinged by a number of knowledgeable people as quite likely to be On The Spectrum (which wasn’t on the cultural radar when boomers were in school, let alone girls.)

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
4 months ago

I don’t have anything to give. 

I notice you immediately talked about the material things you did not have to give, such as a chunk of your emergency fund. It’s interesting to me that you ignored basically my entire comment where I said specifically that I meant immaterial things: giving of your attitude, your friendliness, your empathy when you see people struggling, maybe your help where possible.

I’m not sure who you’re responding to with this:

Whose [back] would I have? I’d need to be accepted and connected with people more, wouldn’t I?

but…you live in an apartment, you’ve said, so you have neighbours. See my words above re showing friendliness, empathy, maybe offering to lend them a hand where you see a need.

Some people have suggested you may be neuroatypical. I’m not going to weigh in on that except to reiterate that everyone has something to give. Plenty of neuroatypical people find their own ways that work to make community connections and have a social network. Yes it can be harder because of prejudice and normativity. But to say it doesn’t or can’t happen (I know you haven’t said that; I’m heading it off) is inaccurate.

The sense I get from your comments over time – and I really wish I didn’t, because in other ways you seem awesome, and so much of what you write is great – is that you think no one is as hard-done-by as you, and no one else’s problems could possibly be as bad, and because of this no one can ever truly offer help to you. And I know you will say you’ve never literally said the words “no one else is as bad off as I am”, but it comes through in a lot of what you write.

I’d love for you to find the support you need and want. I’d love for you to no longer feel persecuted. I know you’re not an incel, but a lot of what you write – about how the world is targeting you personally, about how no one is ever kind to you and you just don’t know why – it feels familiar. It feels like some of the stuff we read about on here.

You write with passion and power about societal inequity. That skill is what I meant when I said everyone has something to offer. I did not, repeat not, repeat NOT mean your material, financial things to offer. I guarantee there are people around you who need help at least as much as you do. Who feel lonely and isolated. What are you doing to help them? Helping them will help you too.

Case in point: someone I know through work (not a colleague but I won’t give identifying details), who I happen to know is dirt-poor, came up to me to check in on me after the London ON attack. It meant more to me than any kind of material support could have. It cost her nothing, except empathy. And the connection enriched and strengthened us both.

.45
.45
4 months ago

@ Surplus

To add to Bookworm here,

“Whose would I have? I’d need to be accepted and connected with people more, wouldn’t I?”

That would be my point, yes.

I can’t speak to your particular set of circumstances, this is true. I can only read what you have written and relate to it as I best I can.

Speaking of, I can say that I can empathize with feeling like one has no connection or acceptance among others. I was raised to keep people at arm’s length, to avoid making connections. The fact that I am suspected by several here to be on the spectrum and that I often had limited contact with anyone I wanted to be friends with growing up was hardly a help.

I feel I have had one friend in my entire life, and that was for only a few years in college. The thing was, there were many who tried to be my friend and I pushed them away. In many ways I didn’t have the social experience to understand anything going on. When girls approached me at parties (parties I went to reluctantly, see my previous comment on being raised to view partying and drinking, dating, etc, in a negative light) I legitimately thought they were just screwing with me, amusing themselves by talking to me, it being obvious I had no idea how to engage in small talk and found the whole experience uncomfortable. Now I understand what they were doing and have the social acumen to respond, but it is a little late. If I had known then what I know now…

I am my own worst enemy here. I have not too long ago walked the four miles to work, because I would feel awkward asking a fellow employee for a ride. This employee works the same shift, thinks I’m awesome (if a bit weird), drives through my neighborhood to get to work, and has given me rides before!

I am making strides though. I believe I mentioned at some point finding some success at online dating. This success would be a joke compared to the stories mentioned by others here, but it is more than what I was doing, baby steps and all. It is awkward, uncomfortable, and I have to fight the feeling that I am… inflicting myself on others when I do it. I’m no expert on women, but I’m pretty sure they don’t agree to yet another date if they don’t see something there, weird as it may be.

Shoot, I have more to add, but work beckons. I am trying to be encouraging and let you know you aren’t the only one struggling to connect. I like to think that we are all on different paths. Some paths are nice and straight level ground in nice sunny/overcast weather, others wind through brambles and jagged rocks in the pouring rain, but just because you are fighting your way through thorns and look over to see someone else walking casually on a nice sidewalk… well, paths change, who knows what’s around the bend. You may envy them now, but it may be the reverse soon enough.

Alan Robertshaw
4 months ago

@ surplus; @ bookworm in hijab

You write with passion and power about societal inequity. That skill is what I meant 

I very much agree with bookworm on that. I really enjoy your general posts; and find them quite thought provoking. You write very well and persuasively.

A while back I did a post to you suggesting this is something you might want to build on; in order to make connections and perhaps feel like you’re doing something worthwhile. It may be you didn’t see it; and I can’t find it now.

But I would just reiterate that point. I can understand your practical difficulties in meeting people and developing relationships in ‘meat space’. But if the pandemic has taught us one thing; it’s that virtual communication can be a pretty effective substitute.

So perhaps just find a few online spaces where you can comment on the subjects you are so knowledgeable and eloquent about. Interact with the people there. And if you can find groups local to your area then that also may provide the opportunity to meet up for real once you’ve established a few contacts.

Anyway, just a thought. It really pains me to see you suffering like this; so I hope life can eventually improve for you a bit.

squeakymousefarts
squeakymousefarts
4 months ago

@Surplus-

I normally just lurk and don’t comment, but wanted to pop out and comment that your comments read like a textbook case of clinical depression. Whoever recommended therapy wasn’t trying to condescend to you or miss the point – they were right on the money.

Talking to a professional won’t fix your internet, love, but it will certainly help you be less dependent on the internet, which addresses a root cause that will materially improve your life.

I’m not Canadian, and I’m incredibly unfamiliar with the healthcare system, but is there no allowance in your public healthcare for therapy? If not, even talking to your GP can help! Getting on lexapro (and later therapy) changed my life, and changed me – I can finally be myself without my brain constantly mishandling its chemicals and fucking me up (well, outside of pandemic/trauma times – the last couple years for me have honestly been one disaster after another, and while things seem better now, I’m still trying to get my feet back under me). I can (most of the time lol) enjoy the things I love, find interest outdoors and in hobbies, interact with others without assuming the worst of them and myself…the list goes on. You can have the same.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 months ago

@squeakymousefarts I agree her/his behavior look extremely like he need therapy. It’s only because I am not a doctor that I don’t insist too much on the issue.

Also, and crucially, I think s/he is not in the right state of mind to benefit from therapy anyhow. Basically, therapy is good when the subject want to change and is ready to admit he or she have a problem, and isn’t particulary useful – and very very hard to do for the therapist – if the subject is hostile to it. Which, well, seem to be the case here.

(I suspect Surplus will say something like “I cannot get a therapy anyway”, or something to that extent. I know ; I used that *exact* excuse when I was in the deep end of my depression)

Alternatively, Surplus need something to see the world differently. Not necessarily traveling, but maybe reading or learning new stuff. I have the impression Surplus suffer a ot from alway saying the same thing, failing in the same way. That might just be an impression tho.

(even subjects that *seem* dry like statistics or accounting can be surprisingly refreshing and help find good reasons for stuff being the way it is)

.45
.45
4 months ago

@ Surplus

To continue what I was saying before: I have been struggling a lot with socializing, and it feels like I am constantly three steps forward, two back all the time. I am awkward, embarrassing to myself and others as I am learning, sometimes to the point of wanting to hang it all up and back the hell up, but that’s part of the process. I can read all the advice columns and how-tos on socializing, dating, networking, etc on the planet, but that’s the planning stage. Eventually I need to put boots on the ground and put theory into practice (and find out painfully that no plan of battle survives contact with the enemy). That is something you have to square with in your social struggles.

Disclaimer: I am saying all this on the assumption that you are like me and WANT to socialize more. You seem to want to, but feel you can’t, whether it be because of your condition or issues, or because of a lack of funds. If I am totally wrong on this point, then I guess none of what I am saying really matters.

Last edited 4 months ago by .45
epitome of incomrepehensibility

@Full Metal Ox – No worries!

On my end, I’m sorry if I remembered the wrong information about people; I’d thought that Surplus said he was autistic, but I might have been mixing him up with someone else. It wasn’t a reflection on the way he writes. I’m sorry that it came across that way.

I’m not autistic myself, but my anxiety makes it hard to initiate conversations sometimes, and my ADHD means I can interrupt, go on tangents, or lose focus. And then there’s general social awkwardness – always fun!

But I’m probably lucky because it doesn’t bother me all the time. Just sometimes. And sometimes other people don’t notice when I think I’m being “weird.”

Anyway, @Surplus, the offer still stands, if you want. I don’t always check WHTM every day but every 3rd day at least.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
4 months ago

@bookworm:

I guarantee there are people around you who need help at least as much as you do. Who feel lonely and isolated. What are you doing to help them?

Nothing, of course. By hypothesis, I have no point of contact with them at all, so short of finding a way to emit some kind of magical anti-loneliness AoE field and one of them happening to be within the effect radius …

@.45:

I legitimately thought they were just screwing with me, amusing themselves by talking to me, it being obvious I had no idea how to engage in small talk and found the whole experience uncomfortable

I don’t seem to have any reliable way to tell if someone who seems to want to interact with me is being sincere or if they are trolling or worse. I’ve run into the “trolling” case often enough that I can’t really just assume good faith, either. Some of the “trolling” cases have been truly bizarre. One left me stranded without transportation and with a dying cell phone charge, serving as a pointed reminder that there are actual dangers associated with this sort of thing (I fortunately got off a call before the battery died and thereby summoned transportation).

@Alan Robertshaw:

A while back I did a post to you suggesting this is something you might want to build on; in order to make connections and perhaps feel like you’re doing something worthwhile.

Build on how, exactly? Certainly not via any route that involves traditional gatekeepers (it’s a sure bet they’ll consider me to be exactly the sort of riffraff the gate is there to keep out) or money (don’t got it, and can’t receive it either without incurring giant complications and attendant risks, meaning any small trickle of it insufficient to call “a lower-middle-class income” is inevitably going to be more trouble than it’s worth).

@squeakymousefarts:

I’m not Canadian, and I’m incredibly unfamiliar with the healthcare system, but is there no allowance in your public healthcare for therapy? If not, even talking to your GP can help!

What GP? *sigh*

@Ohlmann:

I suspect Surplus will say something like “I cannot get a therapy anyway”,

If I turn out to have a rich great-uncle I’d never heard of before who drops dead tomorrow and leaves me a giant inheritance, then maybe we can revisit that.

@various:

The various expressions of sympathy are appreciated, as are the efforts at advice. Sadly, though, I just don’t see any way to translate any of that into progress of any sort as long as I’m as limited as I am in transportation options and funds, even before taking account of certain other complicating factors.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
4 months ago

Nothing, of course. By hypothesis, I have no point of contact with them at all, so short of finding a way to emit some kind of magical anti-loneliness AoE field and one of them happening to be within the effect radius …

So, you never greet your neighbours when you see them? Never chat in the hallway or while waiting for the elevator? Never shovel the walk after a snowstorm? Never offer to help someone carry their groceries? Never admire someone’s new baby? Never introduce yourself to the people whose apartments are beside yours? Never find a new chat online and offer encouragement to someone who’s struggling? Never compliment someone else’s writing in an online space? Never, in fact, reach out at all to help or comfort or uplift anyone? Never?

Really?

Ok. Got it.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
4 months ago

@bookworm:

The things you mention that are online, and similar things mentioned upthread that are online, already do happen. They don’t, however, seem to lead to anything happening in meatspace. And often my online interactions get marred by problems that blow up seemingly out of nowhere, ranging from technical problems to arguments and in 2020 there was that rash of people seemingly being replaced by MAGA replicants: suddenly spewing lots of pro-Trump and even outright white supremacist crap and ceasing to do much of anything else.

As for the neighbors, this doesn’t seem to be that kind of place. Nods are exchanged in the hall, or at the trash shed or laundry machines or mailboxes, but nothing non-impersonal. Most of the time if I leave my apartment I reach the building exit without seeing anyone else moving about in the halls. It’s not that large a building, with maybe 30 units total, so perhaps the low population is part of why. There’s also a fairly high turnover. I don’t think any of the other tenants right now were there when I moved in. If most of the people are not expecting to stay here that long they might not see much point in socializing with other tenants.

Of course, that’s a broader problem with society right now, as so many people have to keep moving to chase the (increasingly scarce, poorer-paid, and precarious) jobs around the countryside. The days of staying in the same job for 30, 40, or more years seem to be over for everyone outside the top two or three percent of the income distribution; and thus, the days of living in the same neighborhood for more than a few years seem to be over.