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Dunning–Kruger effect MGTOW misogyny

Women don’t go into STEM because they can’t use their feminine wiles to manipulate computers, incredible brain man says

Another brilliant insight from the alternate reality known as the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit: the definitive answer to the question of why there are relatively few women in STEM fields.

Our MGTOW brain genius figures that it’s because they can’t use their sexy feminine wiles to manipulate computers the way they can manipulate men.

ZarBandit explains:

Once you understand that most women have one tool in their toolbox: manipulation, you might have an idea why they don’t do stem. You can’t manipulate computers into doing what you want. A mathematical proof can’t be manipulated into being correct.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that will get a computer doing what I want is for me to shut it off and turn it on again.

However, softer science subjects that involve teamwork are infested with women because they can manipulate group dynamics. Coding is a solitary pursuit. Mathematics is one of the most solitary of the sciences. I know of a Mathematics dept where a homeless man lived there for a year and no one noticed.

I’m not sure that’s making the point you want it to, dude.

She’ll never be the best scientist or thinker. But she can be the best manipulator, especially in a group of men. Queen bee. There are plenty of drones who will work for her.

Besides, “thinking too much gives you wrinkles”.

I’m pretty sure the real reason a lot of women stay away from STEM is that they don’t want to be surrounded by idiots like this.

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GSS ex-noob
GSS ex-noob
7 days ago

Yeah, as a STEM major in college (before we called it that), the classwork required and then the demands of the job are easy compared to having to put up with assholes like this. So many of them. SO MANY.

I’d like the ghost of Admiral Hopper to come punch out this creep. And that attractive woman who famously posed next to the stack of code printout that was as tall as her which she wrote to get Apollo to land on the moon.

Now I’m wondering about the hygiene and attention to detail of that math department. If you can’t tell a homeless guy from one of your peers, what other things are you going to overlook?

.45
.45
7 days ago

And I’m sure this ZarBandit is totally in STEM himself…

Contrapangloss
Contrapangloss
7 days ago

I’m probably the least socially adept in my engineering office, and I’m pretty much the only one who LIKES calculation packages.

And take it from me; people do try to manipulate math into saying what they want it to say. It’s all in the assumptions!

Start with a bad assumption (or back calculate to find the value you really WANT to assume and then pour through the literature or the specification for any way you can justify it being what you want, even if you really shouldn’t) and you can do perfectly reasonable math that has a bs output. Like, “oh, I just have to have my stress 2 ksi lower, if I just assume this efficiency is 0.95 instead of 0.97 and voila proposal perfect!”

Don’t trust anyone who thinks math, logic, and programming are impossible to manipulate and are the ultimate arbiters of all truths.

Like, and a base level yes. But also no. Maybe abstract algebra, but math used for design and final algorithms? Certainly no.

Last edited 7 days ago by Contrapangloss
Full Metal Ox
7 days ago

@GSS ex-noob:

I’d like the ghost of Admiral Hopper to come punch out this creep. And that attractive woman who famously posed next to the stack of code printout that was as tall as her which she wrote to get Apollo to land on the moon.

Ooh! Can Ada Lovelace join the party?

Crip Dyke
7 days ago

Coding is a solitary pursuit.

Says someone who has coded professionally for zero days out of the last 2 trillion.

Nequam
Nequam
7 days ago

[Got beaten to the punch about Grace Hopper. But still!]

Last edited 7 days ago by Nequam
Miri
Miri
7 days ago

My grandma is way smarter than this guy

Last edited 7 days ago by Miri
Full Metal Ox
7 days ago

@Miri:

Is this the link you intended?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_L._Osofsky (And I bet her career path was six miles through the snow and uphill both ways.)

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
7 days ago

The Apollo lady you’re referring to is Margaret Hamilton. I know your intention was good, but maybe looking up her name would’ve been better than describing her as “that attractive woman”?

Big Titty Demon
Big Titty Demon
7 days ago

As the soon-to-be only female programmer (technically CS researcher but let’s not split hairs, this guy won’t understand the difference) in a team of 25 I’m sad that I… can’t manipulate them? Because we’re all alone together, I guess? What the what? The only other woman on the team before I got there (who is leaving in a week) was the acknowledged C++ expert and wrote published international standards for the language. All the men came to her for C++ help. I’m sure she was just manipulating them into… making her have more work helping them? The best-laid schemes of mice and women gang aft a-gley…

occasional reader
occasional reader
7 days ago

Coding is a solitary pursuit.

And a solitary pleasure ?
As Creep Dyke said, this person may never had worked in a team. Or maybe no team wanted this person.
While it is not impossible for a person alone to program a small software – or even a big one if this person is some kind of genius -, this is clearly not the standard, at least in the working world.

Miri
Miri
7 days ago

@FMO

Yeah, is my link not working? (I’m on mobile so my link takes me to the wikipedia app, not the website)

And since she went to and taught at Ithaca, it was more like uphill both ways in the drizzle lol

Last edited 7 days ago by Miri
Miri
Miri
7 days ago

Agh, my brain isn’t working. My mother went to Ithaca, not grandma. So yeah, uphill both ways in the snow, as far as career paths went.

Last edited 7 days ago by Miri
Correction Automatique
Correction Automatique
7 days ago

Tell me you don’t know anything about science or scientists without telling me you don’t know anything about science and scientists.

Mabret the Virile Maiden
Mabret the Virile Maiden
7 days ago

I’m a woman in STEM. The last semester I was in college, two of my professors were women. (Of course, I’m trans, so I don’t count to him.)

Big Titty Demon
Big Titty Demon
7 days ago

@Mabret

The C++ expert I mentioned is actually also trans, but I only know that because I’m not stupid and someone dead named her by mistake (it was actually a mistake and not malicious, but extremely poorly done, what if I was an asshole?), so I’m currently pretending like I don’t know that because I think it’s the right thing to do until she says something to me of her own choice and/or wears some kind of statement item?

In any case, do any women in STEM really count? You know we all faking, probably got a beta locked up somewhere doing the work for us.

Full Metal Ox
7 days ago

@Miri:

If I’m not being rude to ask, is your name a Star Trek: TOS reference?

rusalka
rusalka
7 days ago

So I’m not a STEM major (I chose humanities over a place in forensic sciences cause ya can’t manipulate corpses, I guess…?), but I am alive and have an – admittedly superficial – interest in science but this whole thing makes me think of whenever I’m reading articles on whatever subject, I feel like the comment section is crawling with people (and I’ll assume it’s over 90% guys) who’ll always find a way to somehow make a point about how Math > Physics > Engineering are the scienciest of all sciences cause FACTS leave no room for INTERPRETATION and humanities pull shit out of thin air. And every time I’m like… what does that have to do with the artice/ video whatever? And how come you people seem to think that empirical social research doesn’t have a working epistemological toolset?

@ Contrapangloss: I watched a lecture by Sabine Hossenfelder about beauty in physics theory a while ago, where she basically “attacked” some of the core assumptions in physics (the lecture was in German, but she’s got an english youtube channel that’s more focused on popular science topics). As I understood it she argued that: criteria can be postulated into the theory with the whole purpose of making it elegant. Now I don’t have the scientific knowledge to check up on her argument with, but the comment section was ridiculous. There were many people who found her points quite interesting and sounded like they knew what they (and she) were talking about. But there was also a huge load of people who made no real counterarguments but mainly attacked her personally and used outright dumb sexist arguments.

I kinda love the whole irony of that. Female scientist argues that male physicists just manipulated theories till they looked “pretty”. Dudes scream about how she’s got no idea what she’s talking about and look at her hair and women be manipulative bitches anyway -.-

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
7 days ago

Near as I can remember it, it were about 70% women doing Biochem at the same time as me. Would have been fun if I weren’t already wed 😛

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
7 days ago

Don’t trust anyone who thinks math, logic, and programming are impossible to manipulate and are the ultimate arbiters of all truths.

I’ll second that, I may not have studied math and programming, but I did a crap ton of logicand its relationship to math and logic (There’s a lot of logicians in history who started out as mathematicians. The overlap is really strong there) and it really is the assumptions that shape the outcome.

Immanuel Kant (aside from the categorical imperative which is moral philosophy) was also famous for his antinomies proving two opposite beliefs through logic and ‘common sense’ assumptions (which is why his biggest work is called ‘the critique of pure reason’. Pure reason isn’t all that reliable as a method to get to truth).

Miri
Miri
7 days ago

@FMO

Kinda? I’m not a huge fan of my birth name (Miriam), but I started going by Miri a little before I came across that particular episode. It certainly isn’t a downside imo.

Terra
Terra
7 days ago

As a professional software dev, I think this whole posturing is a pretty good indicator that a) the poster is not working as a team, and b) that no team would want to work with him.

There is a (thankfully) dying breed of developers like this. The wannabe rockstar and “code guru” type. Jacks of all trades who imagine themselves masters of all trades. People who believe such a thing as a 10X developer exists, and is something to aspire to.

I do consulting work, and identifying such rockstars is sadly a part of my daily business. They may be smart, but they are a net detriment to their employers. Usually, we find a nice pasture for them to play on where they can be kept away from damaging the actually important topics.

So in essence this feeeeeemale is manipulating the workforce, yes. She is manipulating you to allow everyone else to get on with work. Congrats, you caught me. Have a nice make-work project to enjoy until you eventually retire. Must be nice having that level of privilege, but I’d rather have a work that makes me feel like I contributed something, have regular interactions with other people, learn and grow from and alongside them.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
7 days ago

@Battering Lamb:

Pure reason isn’t all that reliable as a method to get to truth

The most it can do is tell you about the space of all possible internally-consistent worlds. Only observational data can tell you which one of those you’re in … or at least narrow it down to a subset.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
7 days ago

Mathematics isn’t a solitary pursuit. Software engineering even less so. And as a software engineer, I can ensure you a good portion of my working is manipulating people into thinking the program do what they want.

The only sort of point is that since the automatic proof prover exists, there’s less manipulated mathematic results.

Alan Robertshaw
7 days ago

I’m not sure if this is a maths question or a psychology one; but as we have lots of clever people here perhaps there’s some overlap…

But anyway, why do musicians count in songs as “1,2,3,4…” whereas dancers use “5,6,7,8…”?

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
7 days ago

@Battering Lamb : that depend what you think “truth” is.

Mathematics and logic is very reliable for what it do, which is mostly deduce consequences from premises. The thing being that the colloquial sense of truth, and the one used by Kant, isn’t particulary well defined ; and often philosophers are more concerned about finding premises than conclusions. (in my opinion at least)

Also, mathematics and logics have quite litteraly proven that any complex enough system have propositions that cannot be evaluated to either “right” or “wrong”. Regardless of how many premises your world rely on, there will be ambiguities and unknowable stuff.

Iain Lovejoy
Iain Lovejoy
7 days ago

@Alan Robertshaw
Speaking as an (amateur) musician rather than a dancer I suspect it’s because musicians count in musical bars (which most commonly have 4 beats to a bar), will be counted in before the music starts, and keep right on counting 1,2,3,4 over and over again throughout. If someone is bringing in the dancers, this will be on the middle of the piece, so they will have been following the music bar by bar counting “1,2,3,4” over and over in their head until they get to the correct point, whereupon they will continue out loud “5,6,7 8” when counting the dancers in.
(This is my best guess as to how it started, anyway, the most likely reason now is probably just “habit”.)

Buttercup Q.Skullpants
Buttercup Q.Skullpants
7 days ago

Based on the sheer amount of time our software team spends debating implementation during standups, no, often there isn’t one right way to solve a given problem. Our team has a product owner (female), program manager (female), 5 developers (four male and one female), and 2 QAs (female). Because we’re an agile team, we all work in collaboration with each other. Developers don’t get to retreat into their lair and create the whole thing in a vacuum. We’ve had a few “lone wolf” coders in our organization, but they tend to get shown the door.

A bigger reason for the lack of women in STEM is men manipulating them into doing what they want, i.e. quitting.

Besides, “thinking too much gives you wrinkles”.

Does…does he know that Malibu Stacy is satire? I don’t think he does.

Last edited 7 days ago by Buttercup Q.Skullpants
SpecialFFrog
SpecialFFrog
7 days ago

@ohlmann: indeed. In my day, pseudo intellectuals pretended to understand Gödel rather than pretending he doesn’t exist.

Marie Jaeger
Marie Jaeger
7 days ago

I am quite far from working in STEM. All I know is that whenever I tried to “manipulate” a cis-guy into fixing my laptop half of the times they just showed off and weren’t capable at all.

About the manipulating: it’s a virtue as long as men do it. Pick up artists? Trading? Not to speak of the really brilliant work of spies. Walsingham (chief spy under Elizabeth 1) is still adored and he was way ahead of her when it came to manipulation. Manipulating someone actually needs a lot of thinking and includes a high IQ and EQ.

Buttercup Q.Skullpants
Buttercup Q.Skullpants
7 days ago

Musicians chunk pieces in 4s because most Western music uses 4/4 time, while dancers chunk them in 8s because they have two feet and the measures are paired. The count-in tells them which foot to start with. For example, a salsa forward basic (leads with left leg) starts on 1, and a backward basic (leads with right leg) starts on 5.

Being of a certain age, whenever I hear “5,6,7,8…” I have an urge to shout “Schlemiel! Schlimazel! Hasenpfeffer Incorporated!…”

Beyond Ocean
Beyond Ocean
7 days ago

@rusalka

Math > Physics > Engineering are the scienciest of all sciences cause FACTS leave no room for INTERPRETATION and humanities pull shit out of thin air. And every time I’m like… what does that have to do with the artice/ video whatever? And how come you people seem to think that empirical social research doesn’t have a working epistemological toolset?

My guess is that social sciences are saying things they don’t like, so they have to contrive a justification that they’re not real science. Math, physics and (software) engineering are safe, they won’t ever tell them any offensive truths about the world.

Biology is right out though, since its findings don’t care about their transphobic, religious, etc. feelings.

LollyPop
LollyPop
7 days ago

There is a (thankfully) dying breed of developers like this. The wannabe rockstar and “code guru” type. Jacks of all trades who imagine themselves masters of all trades. People who believe such a thing as a 10X developer exists, and is something to aspire to.

@Terra

This is interesting to me because although I know very little about coding, both my brother in laws work in the field. One is extremely pragmatic, started making money at university just doing simple websites for small businesses, now earns megabucks (at least, in my estimation!) in a way involving the management of building apps for big business that I do not fully understand.

The other is much more of a “lone wolf” kinda guy and although is employed at the moment, his fortunes has been much more mixed. He is a self-described polymath (lol) and sort of views himself as a genius, but when the other brother in law talked about his work, he said that he does the coding equivalent of trying to make his own bricks before building a house, which is entirely unnecessary and also shows bad judgement. I like the guy despite his foibles but is this the kind of thing you mean by code guru types?

Karalora
Karalora
7 days ago

Besides, “thinking too much gives you wrinkles”.

1992: Mattel releases “Teen Talk Barbie,” whose voice chip includes the phrase “Math class is tough.” The doll sparks controversy, with many pointing out that this line, while intended to be relatable, might inadvertently promote the idea that young girls should find math to be difficult. The phrase is ultimately removed from the doll’s repertoire.

1994: The Simpsons episode “Lisa vs. Malibu Stacy” riffs on the above situation: Lisa acquires a new “Talking Malibu Stacy” doll and is horrified to hear that all of her pre-programmed phrases promote the idea of girls being vain, vapid, and submissive. One of these phrases is: “Thinking too much gives you wrinkles.” Lisa is framed sympathetically throughout the episode, showing that the writers agree with the Teen Talk Barbie protestors: toys positioned as role/behavioral models for girls should not disparage intellectual pursuits.

2021: ZarBandit, a MGTOW, quotes the line “Thinking too much gives you wrinkles” as part of a screed about how women are unsuited to intellectual pursuits, apparently in the belief that women actually do eschew intellectual pursuits in order to preserve our looks so we can use them to manipulate men. He is aware of the line from the Simpsons episode but has somehow come away with exactly the opposite position to the one espoused by the show’s writers. Not that we should be surprised, but come on.

Terra
Terra
7 days ago

@LollyPop – well, the thing is that the material is complicated. Without bragging, I am pretty good at my job, and I regularly have questions that I just cannot answer easily. What may have been a relatively simple and comprehensive field 30 years ago has splintered into a bevy of disciplines that half the time are nigh incomprehensible to one another. And given my education included journeys into other STEM fields (higher mathematics and physics), it is not any different in all these fields. Lone heroes exist only because they purposefully hide their sources.

You have to be a good and efficient communicator to get anywhere these days. Maybe it was different in the mythical beforetimes, but in my 15 years of experience, communication always beat out “smarts”. Someone else on your team can much more easily patch over gaps in your skillset than even the most broad-based person can handle themselves.

Building software is a lot like building a structure. You may be the world’s greatest plasterer, but if your foundations are shit, the house won’t make anyone happy. Similarly for all other parts. Heroes do not exist in my experience. Only assholes who have a problem either admitting to the help they had or worse, rejecting it and passing off bad software as the best thing since sliced bread. I hope your BIL is neither, or if he is, that he might eventually learn.

But there is this toxic macho cult of the “comprehensive designer”, and that has a lot to answer for. Including the notion that communication is for weaklings, and an ideal mathematician should look like a homeless person.

Terra
Terra
7 days ago

Of course, this assumes a stereotype of people living in precarious housing or being completely without shelter. Sorry for perpetuating that.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
7 days ago

In unrelated but hilarious Jordan Peterson news
https://twitter.com/renfamous/status/1379388310007742464?s=20

North Sea Sparkly Dragon
North Sea Sparkly Dragon
7 days ago

Weren’t the original ‘computers’ mostly women doing the numbers longhand? And early coders were women, until men decided to push their way in and women out, because computers were suddenly cool and high paying?

I was originally a scientist, in that my BSc is in Natural Sciences – Chemistry and Earth Sciences – but I’ve never worked in academic STEM. I did a stint as a lab tech in a chemical factory for a year, and on and off for six years in a food factory QA kitchen. Most of the actual on the ground workers were women, with men for management. Men who thought they knew our jobs better than we did, including the CEO who proudly proclaimed that he’d got a C in GCSE science and never studied it after, but he still knew my job better than I did…At the time, I still thought I was a woman, and certainly the managers did too. I had a lot of friends during my student days who were women in STEM, and they had similar experiences in terms of getting funny looks from male students and lecturers, especially the ones in engineering and maths. The reason so many women whop graduate with STEM degrees don’t go on to STEM careers or leave early are having to deal with the constant misogyny of tits like the OP or because industrial jobs do not work around kids. At an interview for an oil refinery lab tech job I was once asked ‘what my family thought about me working shifts?’. They weren’t expecting my ‘What family? I live with my mum.’ response. They assumed as a twenty five year old ‘woman’ I would have a partner and kids.

Also, the toolkit in my cupboard has a hammer, several screwdrivers, clamps, assorted bits and bobs and gaffa tape. And a tape measure. But I’m not a woman, so maybe the pretty pink tool boxes made for women (eye roll) also contain a tub of ‘manipulation’?

Alan Robertshaw
7 days ago

@ Iain & Buttercup

Thanks for that. That sort of makes sense.

It is weird though. Like I try to imagine the Ramones, or even Outkast, starting 5678, and it just seems so odd and unintuitive!

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
7 days ago

@BeyondOcean : physics, engineering and math are choke full of truth the incels don’t want to hear. Social science comparatively don’t have many more. It’s much more based on how Real Man do maths and not “social” skill methink, because their loved STEM still bluntly say that the incel deny reality.

Note about hard and soft sciences : all fields (except maybe mathematics) have real problem in fake results (people inventing studies or results to help their conclusions) and with reproducibility. Social sciences have thoses problems with significantly more acuity than other fields. The aura of untrustworthiness of theses fields have some basis because of that, and that’s probably why they serve as scarecrow to theses “rational” types.

rusalka
rusalka
7 days ago

Buttercup Q.Skullpants: “A bigger reason for the lack of women in STEM is men manipulating them into doing what they want, i.e. quitting.”

That reminds me of a discussion I had with a friend a while ago where he argued that the problem is the raging toxic masculinity in STEM that doesn’t just target women but men as well – especially if they don’t wanna play the games. I’m not sure he really understood that for women (and minorities probably as well), there’s most of the time not even the opportunity to play said games in the first place.

@ Beyond Ocean: Yeah, that’s something I wondered myself before. But that just shows that these people have a completely skewed view of the whole field… and a kinda naive outlook on the world in general. And I guess that goes hand in hand with a certain intellectual privilege-ism.

It’s a little like some people (and I don’t think they actually all have some STEM degree) wanna beat up social sciences on the playing field but are basically playing against their own fantasies. Meanwhile social sciences sits in the stands, eating popcorn. And while I do think biology may have a nice spot to the side as well – those people just love to use some fake biology blow-up-doll to whack away at their SJW-mirage.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
7 days ago

@North Sea Sparkly Dragon

But I’m not a woman, so maybe the pretty pink tool boxes made for women (eye roll) also contain a tub of ‘manipulation’?

Eh, you can call it what you like I’ll stick to calling it WD-40.

Alan Robertshaw
6 days ago

This has always worked for me!

comment image

Lukas
Lukas
6 days ago

Concept applies to many female brains, no side can use exceptions as the basis for their theory.

Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
6 days ago

@Karalora

To be fair, math is tough. there is a reason my major is for archeology and my minor is history. My husband is so good at math and to me It’s like he’s doing witchcraft.

moregeekthan
moregeekthan
6 days ago

I obtained a degree in a STEM field, and am currently employed in a very different STEM field. Although the main reason I am employable is that I can write coherent emails to customers.

Numenaster
Numenaster
6 days ago

I _DID_ go into STEM. Dudes like this are why I took my buyout and never looked back.

Numenaster
Numenaster
6 days ago

Also regarding counting music:

I’m also a dancer and musician, and I concur with Buttercup. Dance patterns are 8 beats, i.e. 2 measures, and longer (sometimes MUCH longer in belly dance, which is what I know). Stepping out on the floor after counting 1-2-3-4 sounds like you’re beginning in the middle of a figure.

Also I have seen the distinction used to cue live drummers and live dancers separately. But this is uncommon.

Moggie
Moggie
6 days ago

Shout out to anyone who has had to maintain code written by one of those “lone wolf” developers. Sometimes it’s easier to throw it away and start again.

Nequam
Nequam
6 days ago

@Karalora– thanks for reminding me of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbie_Liberation_Organization