Men Going Their Own Way have traditionally had a lot of trouble understanding lesbians — or even believing that they exist. But one forward-thinking MGTOW gentleman thinks he’s got lesbians all figured out — and feminism too.
Let’s let him explain:
Feminism is the clumsy attempt of lesbians to increase the pool of heterosexual women that would become bicurious.
Go on.
Because lesbians are for the most part masculine presenting women that are attracted by feminine heterosexual women.
I don’t believe you’ve quite captured the rainbow of diversity that is the lesbian world, chief.
All the hate against men, sexual freedom, sluttiness, propaganda to make boys take hormon therapy …
I don’t believe that’s really a thing, dude.
… and toxic masculinity are used to lower the competition for heterosexual women that only look to the top % of menliest men.
Well, none of that made any sense. But that’s par for the course when it comes to MGTOWs.
This is episode 432,245,578 in the series “Dudes Pontificating About Shit They Know Absolutely Nothing About.”
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Re: ‘Sigma Males’…
That one isn’t new. I think that one actually was associated with previous discussion subject here Vox Day, who was trying to present it as some sort of super-alpha. In the sense of ‘I am so much better than you I don’t have to care about your petty Alpha/Beta distinctions’. As applied to himself, of course.
What this means, in practice, is that the main difference between Alpha and Sigma is that the Sigmas are the grifters making money selling ‘advice’ to the people trying to call themselves Alphas.
@Allandrel:
Yeah, pretty much. Much like it’s only ‘identity politics’ when it’s something other than white/male/cis/het/etc. The people who spend hours shouting into their megaphones about how their white identities are being persecuted aren’t playing ‘identity politics’, no, not at all…
In a subculture obsessed with hierarchy, I suppose it was inevitable that there would be a need for a “more alpha than alpha” designation. Sooner or later, the same will presumably happen with sigmas, and tau males will be the new hotness.
Interestingly that’s an idea they share with the TERFs who are ‘political lesbians’ such as Janice Raymond.. Julie Jeffreys and Julie Bindel. That sexuality is a ‘political choice’ and that feminists should choose to be lesbians.
Bindel, WGTOW:
-“all feminists can and should be lesbians. Our definition of a political lesbian is a woman-identified woman who does not fuck men. It does not mean compulsory sexual activity with women.”
-“We think serious feminists have no choice but to abandon heterosexuality”
-“I think it’s time for feminists to re-open the debate about heterosexuality, and to embrace the idea of political lesbianism.”
Raymond:
-“Women are not born Lesbians. Women become Lesbians out of choice’
Jeffreys:
-“The lesbian feminist sees her lesbianism as something that can be chosen, and as political resistance in action”
Jefferys also thinks lesbians won’t exist in the future as they will no longer be needed when women and men are equal.
-“The lesbian is a product of a particular historical moment”
-“Lesbianism needs to exist now to provide a refuge for those women who rebel, and as the basis of a movement for social change.”
-“But in the future, when women’s oppression no longer exists, and heterosexuality as a political institution no longer plays a crucial political role, the possibilities
open to women are likely to be different.”
Bigotry sure is a circle…
@Moggie
Presumably that is the result of being twice a pi male.
Does being a sigma male mean you’re as manly as the sum of all other alpha males?
Why in the fuck would lesbians primarily be attracted to straight women? That would be completely self-defeating.
Five minutes with the average MGTOW would have Charles Darwin saying to himself “Y’know, maybe I was wrong about the whole evolution thing.” For real, the instruction manual on my dad’s old VCR made more sense than the nonsense this miggie is spouting.
@Newtontheplant
That’s what I figured initially, but it appears it means a man who isn’t part of the hierarchy.
@Xennial
I’m guessing they’re projecting. It seems to be common for straight men to fantasize about converting lesbians to heterosexuality, so he assumes that lesbians want to do the reverse.
@Allandrel
Not to mention “redpilled,” “blackpilled,” and whatever other terms they have.
@Lisa Mullin
Which is extra strange when you consider that a lot of TERs believe that the patriarchy is “biological,” which means women could never possibly be equal to men no matter how hard feminists work (another thing TERs share with MRAs.)
Now, in manospherian view, just because your approach to dating women is completely self-defeating, doesn’t mean it’s not valid.
As for converting straight women to lesbianism, I presume the self-defeating part is that when straight women turn lesbian, they suddenly become masculine and thus unattractive to their fellow lesbians. Hence, the constant desperate need to prey on new straight women. This model also explains how the older generation of lesbians came to being in the first place. Lesbianism is like a pyramid scheme, fueled by the sex appeal of new recruits.
[/snark]
@Xennial depending on where you look, some lesbians wish more women were gay. I don’t blame ’em. Their dating pool is already narrow, and some straight women can be really shitty towards lesbians.
@rv97: As a bi woman? I would draw a distinction between being disappointed that a pretty lady is straight vs. being specifically attracted to women with whom I’d have no chance and might also be bigoted or otherwise hostile. So “entitled straight boys projecting their doomed crushes on lesbians onto sapphic women” seems like a more likely explanation.
@Xennial begs the question on how to get guys to be happy to be single without being assholes about it.
So, logically: manosphere-ism/MGTOW is the clumsy attempt to make more men bi-curious?
I always suspected it.
@GSS ex-noob: Doubt it. Remember: they thrive on double standards. Women’s lives are expected to revolve around men, and “rule-breaking” women are despised; but…well, they pride themselves on their lives supposedly not revolving around women. (Right…because centering their lives around hating women for not being Stepford Wives is in no way just an ugly twist on centering their lives around women.)
@Policy of Madness A lot of people who would describe themselves as a 1 on the Kinsey scale latch onto to the term bicurious as a label for themselves, because nothing else seems to fit. Because society makes us feel like we must have a label. I realize that a lot of people who use the term don’t use it in that context, leading to miscommunication.
Migtoes are making my demisexuality take a hard turn for the asexual. AGAIN.
@Xennial Dot Warner (great name): Oh, I know that. I just like turning it around to quickly show how completely stupid it is. It probably annoys our occasional passing MGTOWs too.
But if they were truly MGTOW, they’d be hooking up with other men. No need for women at all, like the “political lesbians” that @Lisa Mullin mentioned. They’d be free of all their burdens.
Oh, but they aren’t attracted to men? Have they tried? No? Guess they’re not really GTOW then, are they? Commit to it or STFU, boys.
@GSS ex-noob
From my limited knowledge of political lesbians, they didn’t think sex was a requirement, just avoiding sex with men. This is probably why most actual lesbians don’t want them, since for the most part PLs don’t actually have interest in sex with women.
Hey, Bina’s back!
Nice to see you again. You’re a reminder from the Before Times!
@Naglfar: then the miggies really are the opposite of PLs, except for nobody wants either group?
@GSS ex-noob, Naglfar – Idk if everyone wouldn’t accept them as lesbians. Lesbian can mean different things to different people, like if someone was asexual but wanting a romantic relationship. But I can see why some might see them as fake.
Also, some people who organize women-only spaces have TERFy ideas, sadly. 9 years ago, my friend (a cis lesbian) told me about pulling out of a writing conference because the organizer was posting about it being only for “women-born women” to exclude trans people. I was thinking, “Hm, that’s a thing?” 🙁
…I mean trans-exclusionary queer groups. “Women-born women” isn’t a thing because people are born as babies, not adults. Hey, TERFs, before you worry about pronouns, get your nouns right.
-Signed, A Grammar SJW 😉
@epitome
To the best of my knowledge, that term originates with MichFest, a cis women’s only festival that billed itself for “womyn born womyn” and notably had an incident where a teenage trans girl tried to attend and was threatened with rape and death. It seems to be less popular now, most likely because they’ve developed other terms like “natal women” or because the idea of women born women would imply that there could also be women who weren’t “born women.”
As for them not knowing that people aren’t born as adults; well, biology was never their strong suit.
@Naglfar: that’s how I remember it too. Apparently they didn’t feel that trans women/girls had suffered enough under the patriarchy to “deserve” hanging with the cis AFAB women. (Which we all know is bullshit; “sissy boys” get no respect from the patriarchy either.)
But I have always looked askance at anyone who spells it “womyn”. Trying too hard.
There’s a supportive association of SF/F/H writers called “Broad Universe” who started out as a group for women (thus the pun), and now plainly state they’re for women and non-binary people.
@GSS ex-noob
Same. I also give side eye to “womxn” but for a different reason. Womxn was originally created to be inclusive of trans and non-binary women/femmes, but has mostly had the opposite effect: I’ve only ever seen it used to refer to trans or non-binary women, and therefore it’s just another way of othering, saying we’re not women but “womxn.”