MGTOW: Men died in Stalingrad to defend men’s right to not pay for dinner on dates

Initially, I read this MGHOW as crediting world wars I and II for our modern civil freedom, which apparently crucially includes the freedom to live as a bachelor. The logical connection wasn’t obvious (to put it mildly), so it kept bugging me.

After a second or third reading, and some cues from the other commenters, it now seems he’s actually framing the MGTOW lifestyle or somesuch as brave civil rights resistance, likening himself and his comrades to soldiers in a war. Drama kings, indeed.

At the same time, he seems to acknowledge that most modern people (or even most modern men) have it pretty easy, so the concept of oppression and fight for freedom has been nearly forgotten. Muddled messaging, I’d say. Naturally, he brings up historical wars rather than any actual civil rights struggles, because the latter tend to be less dramatic, only familiar to people with slightly deeper understanding of history – and mostly showcasing the actual historical oppression and courage of women and non-white people.

@Lumipuna

At the same time, he seems to acknowledge that most modern people (or even most modern men) have it pretty easy, so the concept of oppression and fight for freedom has been nearly forgotten.

That seems to be a fairly common alt right framing: that most younger men aren’t going to war anymore or haven’t faced enough hardships in general, and therefore have gotten soft and insufficiently masculine. This appears to be a reframing of the idea that trauma or hardship builds character, but for a very specific definition of trauma that’s in line with their ideas of masculinity. Of course, usually the people saying this have never been to war themselves, as is common with many war hawks.

[quote]I am an independent male who values his sovereignty above all else[/quote]Sovereign Citizen language from an angry (presumably white) man who refuses to take responsibility for anything and is prone to overblown dramatics? Who’d have thought it?

@Lumipuna

Perhaps this MGHOW thinks fighting wars (or internet wars, as it is) is not fundamentally a response to perceived threat but rather a sacred tradition of men to actualize themselves.

That is likely what they believe, as war has historically often been presented in this light for the purposes of heroic narratives. In the modern day I would expect that less because photographs and video of war are widely available, making it easier to know the reality, but MGTOWs were never known for connection to reality.

This sort of inconsistency or historical confusion seems to be commonplace when the mainstream Anglo-American WWII narrative clashes with not only nazi fanboyism, but more general Western chauvinism and anti-communism.

It also shows up a lot in the United States re: the Civil War. So many people claim to be patriotic while flying the flag of a US enemy that attempted secession (the Confederacy), or praise members of the Confederate army as patriots when they attempted to destroy the US. I do not know if groups in other countries use the Confederate battle flag, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there were some similarly ahistoric groups elsewhere.

@Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy
Well that surprised me.

Although with hindsight, it shouldn’t have. By 1995 they were starting to say that the Nazis were left wing. It’s very telling that nobody came out with this stuff until until most of the generation that remembered the war had died.

@epitome
Re: Sabaton
I’d guess anyone who thinks Sabaton are Nazis really wasn’t paying attention to the lyrics, since IIRC they have a bunch of songs about fighting against Nazis. Apparently it has been an issue for their PR, though, since one of their albums was banned in Germany because it mentioned Nazis (though the song is about fighting against them).

That said, I do acknowledge that as much as I love metal, there is a problem with Nazis in the scene, and that includes those who will deliberately or subconsciously convince themselves that bands agree with them even when they don’t. In addition, a lot of Nazis seem to think that all white people secretly agree with them, so they might have assumed that since the band members are European and white that they somehow agree.

@ Naglfar

Off the top of my head, I can think of three Sabaton songs that you could say cast the German military, and by extension Nazis, “in a good light.” Ghost Division, Bismarck, and Wolf Pack.

At no point do they praise Nazis or anything, more obsessed with military might and elan as per most of their songs, but as you say, if one came at things with an agenda…

The Manosphere is notorious for appropriating historical incidents. It doesn’t just attack women in the present, but also in the past. I came across a clip of one guy claiming Harriet Tubman is a fable and was only created in 1942 to appease Black women.

@ Fabe

Yeah, I never really liked that one. Good story behind it, but don’t care for the song itself.

Anywho, that sounds more like the kind of story Neo-Nazis or Nazi sympathizers would hold up as evidence that they are honorable and, coupled with cherry picked examples of Allied war crimes, have the moral high ground.

Bit of a history buff tangent, but as far as Sabaton the only other remote song that presents the WW2 German perspective is Wehrmacht, which is a song that actually directly addresses the dubious image of the German Army at the time that actually makes an attempt to bring attention as to wither the soldiers of the German Army were tragic cogs forced to fight for an evil Fascist dictator of an evil political ideology and the system that benefit them, or if they were truly full of fanatical, murderous madmen… which the song seems to come to the conclusion of “a little of both”.

That being said Sabaton have always hated Nazi’s and never praised them, and their songs relating to Ghost Division, Bismarck, Wolf Pack and No Bullets Fly are all written with the intent of being historical ballad’s of battles, events and people of those historical events and wars. No Bullets Fly was itself the story of The Charlie Brown and Franz Stigler incident where Franz Stigler not only spared the ravaged and hole ridden B-17 piloted by Bomber Pilot Charlie Brown; but escorted it out of German held airspace to ensure the B-17 and it’s crew returned home. Considering that Franz doing this while in service to Nazi Germany’s Military at the time; would have been feasibly an assured death sentence should have any Nazi party hardliner found out. And yet he did so out of principle. But it was not, as some would assert as being “Nazi honor” (not even by the false assertions of the Nazi’s themselves). But rather it’s a case where a man, in the forced service to an evil, meglomanichal and implicitly murderous ideology in command of a nation and it’s military: managing to hold on to his humanity and his honor in spite of the honor-less evil he was forced to fight for. And to top it off: years long after this event; both men eventually managed to find one another and became friends and brothers up until their deaths.

Nazi’s that keep trying to appropriate Sabaton and their songs for their hateful agenda (and they have tried) are faced with an uphill battle given the band, most of it’s fans and the songs are fierce rejections of Nazism and such attempts by said Nazi’s being antithetical to what those songs stand for, as these songs are intended as historical Ballads. Especially given Sabaton once made a song, The Final Solution, that was written as a somber, lamenting balled in honor to the victims of the Holocaust and hamming hard the atrocity that it was. Or the fact that another song, The Last Battle, was a balled of the Battle of Castle Itter that valorized American soldiers and German soldiers who fought together to kill Nazi’s and free prisoners held captive by said Nazi’s.

@epitome

Were you there when David did a story on Taylor Swift & the Daily Stormer crowd? Basically they were trying to convince themselves she was a white supremacist.

Yes, I do recall that. IIRC they were rather upset to find out she wasn’t.

@epitome of incomrepehensibility

There was also “Uprising” about the Warsaw uprising in 1944.

Oh yes, another good, historical balled type song by Sabaton that sung of those who fought against and killed Nazi’s in Poland.

I’m ashamed I almost forgotten that song as well: as it’s also one of my favorite songs by Sabaton. It was a very compelling moment in WW2 history. I even have the Steam Game Warsaw that actually has you play as a Polish resistance cell fighting in Warsaw durring the uprising in a very Darkest Dungeon-ish kind of style.. which is also full of very interesting and rich hisotry of the event and the people who participated in it.