MGTOWs love making memes with this famous photo of Leonardo DiCaprio, sporting a slightly smug smile, raising a glass of champagne to toast, well, whatever it was he was toasting. In this picture, Leo seems to represent their platonic ideal of the MGTOW attitude, exuding the self-confidence they wish they had.
So they love to pretend that Leo is speaking for them.
You get the idea.
There’s just one little problem with the MGTOW appropriation of this meme: this is a still from the most recent film version of The Great Gatsby, in which Leo played none other than Jay Gatsby.
I can only assume that the MGTOWs using this meme never read the book or saw the film(s), because Jay Gatsby isn’t exactly a man going his own way in any sense of the term; he’s a man brought low by his obsession with a woman who just happens to be married to another dude. I’m hesitant to divulge any big spoilers, but at the end of the book, let’s just say he isn’t in a position to toast anyone or anything.
Or maybe this isn’t a self-own after all. Gatsby is consumed by his obsession with one woman; MGTOWs, for all their talk of going their own way, are consumed by their obsession with women in general.
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These memes are also plagued with the problem most MGTOW memes have: they’re not very funny, with any humor present being inadvertent and due to the self-owning quality or weirdness of the memes themselves.
I especially find the ones that say “MGTOW” in big letters to be funny, because it reads to me like the other text is addressed to a fellow MGTOW rather than at women.
Are these made the mgtow who are children and haven’t reached sophomore year so they haven’t read the great gatsby yet?
And so they beat on*, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
*More like “off”, in their case
I’d be legit surprised if most MGTOWs read anything more sophisticated than “Dick and Jane”.
It’s pretty on brand for manospherians to struggle with basic analysis of books and movies. See also the red pill and their love of Tyler Durden.
I past my classes for this semester, one more to go and i can graduate
Also perfect in that Gatsby is completely oblivious of Daisy the actual person, because he is obsessed with Daisy the trophy who will prove he has finally made it. Of course the MGTOW should be represented by a desperately insecure character who wastes his talents desperately trying to impress other people to aquire an alpha status that isn’t actually worth anything!
“The Not Even Mediocre Gatsby”
Congratulations, Lainy!
And I can only assume that MGTOW know nothing about life on planet Earth.
I dunno. Memes are taken out of their original context; that is part of what makes them what they are. I started feeling icky about that “woman vs salad cat” meme after learning that the crying/raging woman was at the time of the original scene in an abusive relationship, and upset at someone who betrayed her (something like that, I can look up the full context). But that doesn’t mean that people who use this meme when it points out stuff like funny graphic design are careless about DV. It means that memes are memes. They’re a piece of pop culture removed from its original context and given new meaning.
[This also means that I’m not actually annoyed by people using Plato’s Cave as an example of perception being limited or of “what if our world is not really real and there’s, like, a realler world out there and we just gotta find out the truth” – just like I’m not actually annoyed about the popular use of the word “apocalypse” to mean the eschaton, the Endtimes, rather than the original meaning of “vision”. I’m just an excitable nerd sometimes and can go on the well-actually-ing for a while because isn’t it cool? Anyway, where was I?]
Those MGTOW memes are stupid not because of the Great Gatsby, they’re stupid because of their simplistic misogynistic messages, and because they are wrong.
@Lainy; congratulations! You can do this!
@Penny PSmith – FTR, Taylor Armstrong (the woman in the meme) doesn’t seem too upset by that moment turning into a meme. She’s found some joy in it, got an award for it (Best Meme of the Year), and just seems more confused as to why she’s yelling at poor Smudge than anything else.
@ Lainy
Congratulations!!!
@ Penny
I like to say “Behold! The apocalypse” when I open the curtains.
@Penny Psmith – That’s true. Even without Gatsby, the memes are a hot mess. The photo says “witty bon mot at sophisticated party”, the caption says “I have never interacted with other human beings”.
They’re very careless people.
/EnglishMajorMoment
I’ve never watched the movie, but when I see that image, I don’t see someone genuinely toasting someone. This looks to me like the kind of thing you might do after winning in poker and taking all the other guy’s money: “Cheers, sucker!”
@Lainy
Well done! Just one more hill – you’ve got this shit handled. 🙂
@Lainy
Glad to hear you passed. Best of luck with your final semester.
What I’m finding disturbing is that meme of treating women like whores, as if sex workers automatically deserved rough treatment ,but them we live in a hypocritical society where people are constantly being socialized to pursue sex, but if a woman actually does it (and for money no less), she gets violence, threats of violence, and shaming.
I think whats bothering me is the idea that violence towards sex workers is such a given,and so unquestioned, that it should be meted out to any women who behave in a similar manner. Movies, and books and show after show after show have normalized this idea that sex workers deserve violence.
@Lainy
Congrats!
@Penny Psmith
Hey, I took like two whole philosophy classes more than ten years ago. You’re lucky I remember Plato’s Cave at all. ;D
@Victorious Parasol
Yes. I like to say that, but always have to add the caveat that I mean less bumbling and more don’t care about stuff.
Lakitha wrote:
Thanks for pointing out the violence aspect – I almost forgot it. I’m familiar enough with the traditional normalization of shaming and objectifying of sex workers (and to lesser extent other sexually active women). The violence that accompanies these attitudes always takes me off guard.
I remember reading that that movie inspired a fashion for Gatsby-themed weddings.
That’s an impressive misreading of the text, but the miggies manage to outdo it.
Mogwitch – you make a good point. Gatsby is obsessed with the Daisy he met years earlier, and is so focused on his internalized image of her that he’s almost blind to who she actually is. From my memory of the book, she’s so shallow as to be entirely surface.
Bonus: Kate Beaton did a series of Gatsby strips for ‘Hark, a Vagrant’ that are worth checking out.
Speaking of manly men, just been reading this. It’s a study by the University of Hawaii. It’s an animal rights thing, but may overlap with interests here.
In summary, the uni set up a series of experiments with groups of men.
Some of the group were faced with threats to their masculinity. All the men were then offered certain food choices, by way of pizza. The non challenged men just ate as they had done previously i.e. a mix of meat and non meat pizzas. But the threatened men all opted to eat only meat. Specifically the more manly meats like steak.
https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10125/100470/Pohlmann_Attila_r.pdf
The uni then analysed the men’s anxiety levels by reference to things like cortisol level.
What interests me is that, merely choosing to eat meat didn’t actually reduce the threatened men’s anxiety. That only went down when they could be publicly seen to do so.
“The mere act of eating does not reduce the stress of masculine identity threat; meat must be ordered“
So it seems there’s an actual scientific basis behind the whole ‘soyboy’ thing as a form of virtue signalling; in the original technical sense i.e. threatened men need to publicly identify themselves as meat eaters.
@Robert
I guess they didn’t watch to the end of the film.
I saw that movie a couple years back and thought it was okay, but nothing special. To be fair, I didn’t really enjoy the book much either, but at least I understood the point better than MGTOWs or people holding Gatsby-themed weddings.
@Alan Robertshaw
That reminds me of an anecdote about how singer James Blunt apparently felt threatened by the women in his classes so he went on an all meat diet until he got scurvy.
This seems like a potential explanation for Jordan Peterson. He claims to eat exclusively beef, but likely doesn’t do so in private.
@Robert:
I remember reading that that movie inspired a fashion for Gatsby-themed weddings.
Which is right up there with the Hunger Games licensed tie-in chocolate and cosmetic lines.
Thank you all for the kind words. It’s nice to see all the hard work I’ve been putting in amounting to something.
“How is Jordan Peterson?”
“Eh, I heard he’s recently recovered enough to start doing public appearances again…”
“No, I mean how is it even possible to be Jordan Peterson?”
@Alan Robertshaw
Thank you for that link. The study is very interesting, for its methodology as well as its results. I can’t help but wonder if anyone orders brussels sprouts on pizza, though!
@ daughter
Part of me wonders whether this was just a bunch of starving researchers trying to blag free pizza from the university; so they designed an experiment to facilitate that.
@Alan Robertshaw
-“And then we can make the pizza toppings one of the variables, so we can order any kind we want.”
-“Genius!”
Oh, come on, David, as a thrall for Feminists you very well tell it the way convenient for women. Why don’t you say the story is about a woman taking advantage of her womanhood to let a man be blamed for what SHE DID?
@Jonatan Carmi
Except that that’s not what it’s about. Have you ever read it?
https://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2020/12/16/raise-a-glass-to-all-the-mgtows-owning-themselves-with-this-leonardo-dicaprio-meme/comment-page-1/#comment-3656194
Here, the meme is about THE MOVIE, not the book. Stick to that limit.
Oh, and by the way, you talk as if women with Feminism never ever slipped to the floor when it comes to lack of information with a contradiction ensuing…
I mean… Feminists lovers of paganism and AGAINST ABORTION (Pagans were so fucking against abortion)… no?
@Jonatan Carmi
Still, doesn’t change the point. I’ve seen the movie, and the story is the same.
What do you even mean? Where’s the contradiction? And what does that have to do with feminism?
Still not sure what you’re talking about, or how it relates to this. I’m sure there are feminist pagans, but most feminists I know are not pagan. As well, I have no idea what the pagan view on abortion is or how it’s relevant here, but you do realize that there can be disagreement within a religious group? I know Christians who are anti abortion and other who are pro abortion, religious groups aren’t hive minds.
I would never dare make such a claim. I am a woman with Feminism (I think), and back when we had two kitties, they would sometimes trap me in the bed by lying on either side of me. When that happened, I would have to slither my way out, and I did sometimes slip to the floor. I assume that’s what you’re talking about.
@jonathan
You’re just making yourself seem really stupid for not understanding the plot of the book or the movie my guy, you still in high school and had to pull that out for a different perspective on the book and movie for a paper?
NagIfar It’s not the same, in the story we can see a woman getting away with a car crush she did and the man paying for it… as usual, like women never used men for that and that proves men, more than women, were slaves.
The contradiction is that the paganist culture has primarily rejected abortion and Feminists use paganist messages and characters while being most of them in favour of abortion? But yea… right.. .the problem is a meme.
And can you understand that there can be MGTOWs just validating that man’s mere stance on the show, showing agreement or approval, and that’s it?
Still… watch the movie better. The story IS about a woman getting away with her own shit and having a man be held accountable.
Lainy fuck off, you privileged cunt of Gynocentrism. Go watch the movie and see how a woman does the shit and has the man blamed for it. Period.
Viscaria as a Feminist many people might have told you this… but you’re not psychologically well. See you. Well, not see you… please. JUst fuck off.
@ jonaton
I’m not convinced that is necessarily correct. I can’t find any surveys or similar. If you have ones you can point me too I’d be interested in seeing them.
I appreciate anecdotal evidence must be approached cautiously. However I do move in pagan circles over here (UK). That’s everyone from young urban Wiccans, to middle aged middle class rural old school pagans. I’ve never met anyone who doesn’t firmly believe in a woman’s right to choose.
That may of course be a cultural thing. Abortion is much less of a polarising issue here than say the US. There are some vocal religious objectors; but it’s a relatively fringe section that try to push abortion into the political sphere.
But a quick bit of Googling suggests even US pagans are firmly pro-choice. I can find lots of individuals and groups speaking out in favour of abortion, and literally non against.
As you put forward the claim; then I’m afraid I’m going to have to revert to usual evidential standards and say the burden is on you to prove that. So open to any evidence you have to indicate that.
@jonatan
You really didn’t get the point of the movie then. I guess when you’re hyper fixated on the idea of “men good women bad” you tend to miss the point.
As for telling everyone to fuck off, you came to our site. You can leave if you don’t like it.
Wow, calling me a cunt. that really just wins your argument and make seem so smart. Good job little boy.
Jonatan Carmi can’t actually respond to Viscaria so they make a vague reference to a diagnosis without referencing any diagnostic criteria. And buried it in an insult about feminists.
This one is a larger problem given how it’s applied to sexual assault victims and used to take focus off of mass shooters.
And there’s more ways of attacking things they simultaneously run from.
Goodness, they can’t explain how a movie does anything and try to bully with sexist insults. Eye vomit, that’s close to what I’m feeling.
@Alan Robertshaw:
None? I’d have thought there’d be a few. Paganism is hugely more diverse than monotheism, since it’s older and most of the latter are descended from a single fairly recent common ancestor, Zoroastrianism.
Further, I’d have thought that, at the very least, Odanism (a fascist-adjacent white supremacist revival of Norse paganism) would be anti-abortion, either via Kinder, kuche, kirche or the general widespread anxiety among white supremacists about white birth rates. Well, anti-abortion among their own adherents anyway, even if they would be happy to see brown people have them.
@ surplus
Yes, I was a bit surprised too.
I suspect pagans tend to sway a bit progressive and counter culture; but that doesn’t guarantee any particular viewpoint.
And as pagans often have a bit of a dualist approach to considering personhood as not necessarily inseparable from the physical body, then one might expect stances on what counts as being a living being not necessarily comporting to the usual scientific definitions.
But I couldn’t find anything with modern pagans or pagan groups extolling anti abortion rhetoric, even among the groups you mention. Maybe they don’t invoke their religious beliefs as part of their political rhetoric?
There’s also the issue of how you define pagan.
But that’s why I’ve thrown the ball back into Mr Carmi’s court, to see if he has any relevant authority for his assertion.
The absence of anti-abortion pagans may also be due to the fact that white supremacist pagans have been pushed out of most non-racist groups. I know little about paganism, but most of my pagan friends (who are all progressive and AFAIK pro-choice) have been emphatic in their opposition to people using paganism or folk religion as a shield for racism or other bigotries. The other bigotry that appears common in pagan spaces is transphobia, I’ve heard from others on WHTM and elsewhere that there’s a fair amount of bioessentialism/sex essentialism in some pagan traditions.
@Surplus
Not according to the usual American/Anglosphere usage of the word. There’s basically three strains
of reconstructed/romanticised neo-paganism (Irish, Norse, and Greek/Egyptian), plus some intellectual descendants of the Theosophists and the occasional neo-Hermetic type. Sometimes the Vodun/Santeria family are counted too, but they’re syncretic Christians really. IME nobody usually talks about Shinto, Shen, Hinduism, Native American traditions etc. as paganism except the same kinds of people who call Catholics pagans. The monotheistic faiths, OTOH, have schismed endlessly and spawned everything from free love communes to Scots Calvinists to Gnostics to crypto-pagan creeds like Celtic Christianity or classical Sufism. It’s really fascinating, in a trainwreck kinda fashion.