Self-identified incel Alek Minassian is currently on trial in Canada for the van attacks that killed ten in Toronto in 2018. His defense? That his autism made him do it, leaving him not criminally responsible for the killings.
One of the psychiatrists testifying on his behalf argued that his thinking was so distorted by “extreme autism” that he was virtually psychotic. The other argued that Minassian was so lacking in empathy he was unable to understand that what he did was wrong.
There are several problems with these arguments. For one thing, autism is not remotely the same as psychosis. For another, despite Minassian’s lack of empathy — a trait shared by many violent criminals — he made it clear in interviews with the two experts that he does indeed know the difference between right and wrong. It seems unlikely that the defense’s logic will convince the judge trying the case.
More broadly, the “autism defense” is distressing because it essentially throws every law-abiding autistic person under the bus, suggesting some sort of innate connection between autism and acts of extreme violence that simply doesn’t exist. As Autism Canada has pointed out in a response to the defense’s arguments, autistic people are far more likely to be the victims of violence rather than the perpetrators.
In an essay on the case, autism activist Sarah Kurchak wrote
The lingering idea that autism alone can make a person violent and dangerous, and the idea that autistic people can’t experience empathy—and that those who don’t experience empathy are dangerous and incapable of caring about others in alternative ways—affects everything from the way that people treat us socially, to our employment prospects, to whether we are able to access autism testing and services at all.
Reading about the Minassian trial, I’m struck by the similarities between his lawyers’ arguments and the ways in which Minassian’s fellow incels also use autism as an excuse for their own foul ideology.
Many incels claim to be autistic, or at least on the spectrum, though it’s hard to know how many of these people are legit and how many are self-diagnosed pretenders. And while it’s likely that the social awkwardness that tends to come with autism has led to romantic difficulties for some incels, autism doesn’t explain or excuse their adoption of a hateful, misogynistic set of beliefs, or the cheering on of mass killers like Minassian and incel “saint” Elliot Rodger, or the acts of outright harassment of women and girls that some incels indulge in.
Just as there is nothing inherent in autism that led to Minassian’s rampage, there is nothing inherent in autism that leads to the so-called “Black Pill.” Pretending there is some innate connection is an insult to the overwhelming majority of autistic people, who are as horrified by incels as the rest of us.
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Lawyers have to lawyer. As far as I can see, since there’s no dispute he actually committed the crime, his lawyers have to say at least something in his defence, and this BS is all they’ve got. You can’t expect someone happy to mow down a bunch of people in a van to give a crap about the effect of running his attempted defence on other autistic people if he thinks it might give him a minuscule chance of getting off. As far as I can see, he’s lying, the lawyers are flying a kite on it in accordance with his instructions (as they are obliged as his legal representatives to do) and no-one running this defence actually thinks it’s true. I can’t see it actually lasting two seconds in court.
Hopefully once the trial is done the judge will make it pretty clear what kind of rubbish this actually is.
I am not autistic or on the spectrum (AFAIK) nor have I more than a general understanding of the condition, but even I know that you can be as lousy as you like in picking up people’s social cues and understanding what other people might be thinking or feeling, but that doesn’t mean you have any difficulty at all in knowing that they don’t want to be dead. He’s just continuing to be a self-serving piece of ****, something utterly unrelated in any way to autism, which, hopefully, for the sake of others with the condition, who he obviously cares nothing about, most people will realise.
@Not Edward : in addition to be shitty to autistic peoples, I also think it’s part of a worrying trend.
In the past, cold blooded killers and terrorists like him tried to get a lighter sentence by showing that they have seen the light and understood the error of their way.
Nowaday, I have the feeling there are much more often defense based on various permutation of “the situation forced him to do that”, whether it’s (alleged) insanity, (alleged) past bullying, or similar schticks.
While in the past I endlessly mocked the people who tried to make a show of a total and sudden redemption, I much prefer that people hypocritically say that they did wrong and won’t do that again than people that refuse to admit that their act were evil.
@Ohlmann
I definitely agree. If someone provides as an explanation for going on a killing spree that e.g. he is somehow so not in control of his actions that not getting a girlfriend meant he was incapable of stopping himself, that’s all the more reason why he needs to be locked away for everyone else’s safety, not less. I don’t see how it functions as an excuse.
@AdamMurphy
Interesting. Is it possibly you have aphantasia in addition to autism? To be clear, earlier I wasn’t saying that you can’t be autistic or anything like that, I was just relaying my experience.
@Mrs. Obed Marsh
In my experience, this leads to a lot of people also assuming that if we can pass for neurotypical that our life must be just like that of a neurotypical person when it usually takes significant effort to pass.
@Ohlmann
I’m not sure about getting rid of it entirely, but I really don’t like the way it’s referred to as ASD (autism spectrum disorder). We aren’t disordered, we’re neurodivergent, and I think the name gives a lot of people misconceptions.
Also he’s throwing people who suffer from psychosis under the bus. Like many mental illnesses, they’re more likely to be victims of crimes than perpetrators. And they’re not void of empathy.
@Not Edward: (And I’ll preface this by saying I don’t know how my tone comes across in text, but I’m not trying to argue with you. I’m just using your words as a jumping-off point.)
I think you make a decent point here with regards to his legal team. I don’t know how they can sleep at night knowing they are contributing to dangerous, harmful myths about the autistic community, but I do at least understand why they would try to lean on prejudice and misinformation in defense of their client.
The expert witnesses, on the other hand, should have a whole different set of ethical priorities. They should know better. If they don’t, they are dangerous quacks; if they do, they are deliberately choosing to do harm to an already marginalized community.
ETA: I see that since I started my comment and when I pushed “send” there has been discussion of the not criminally responsible defense.* While it is completely inappropriate here, there legitimately are crimes committed by people who do not and cannot know what they are doing. I am not a legal expert of any kind, but it is my layman’s opinion that it would cause incredible damage to try and take this defense away. If someone is committing a violent act but they don’t know that’s what they are doing, we cannot hold them responsible. It’s my belief that we should focus on how being autistic does not render someone incapable of knowing it’s not okay to murder people, not on attacking the entire concept of not criminally responsible. Same with unfit to stand trial, if that comes up as well.
*I’m actually not sure “defense” is the right word here, but again, IANAL, so that’s the best I can do.
Oh, I forgot a very important bit. Sorry for the double post.
Not Edward said
It’s important to note that people who are found not criminally responsible are detained in mental health facilities, sometimes for longer than they would have served in prison, sometimes for the rest of their lives. They are “locked away for everyone else’s safety” unless and until they are found to be no longer a danger.
This is actually another reason why Minassian’s defense strategy is dangerous for autistic people: It suggests that autistic people (or “extremely” autistic people, whatever that means) may need to be forcibly hospitalized for the sake of everyone else, just because they are autistic . Perhaps he finds the prospect more personally appealing than serving his sentence, but it puts all other autistic people at greater risk.
@Viscaria
I would tend to think these are supremely few and far between. My uncle, who lived to his 70s, was “retarded.” I know this is a word we don’t use anymore, and I would give you his diagnosis, except that was his diagnosis. He was diagnosed in a past medical system and never looked at again, I think because my grandmother (his guardian) knew how to interact with him and did not really care what was officially different about him. If I were to guess, I would say he was probably developmentally disabled and almost non-verbal autistic with some kind of motor function disability. He could only say a few words.
He knew the difference between right and wrong and had a sense of empathy at least as finely tuned as a neurotypical person’s. In the home where he was cared for the majority of his life, he knew the caregivers and he had the empathy to know when one of them was having trouble even if he could not express it in a standard way. He knew if he did something bad (usually got into a shouting fight with another home resident) and would say “sorry”, which may not seem like much but was a huge effort for him to even form the word. He was one of the “lowest-functioning” individuals I saw, and he still knew violence against others was wrong.
Because of this observed experience with my disabled uncle, and the others around him in his home (before it was broken up but that’s another story for another day), I am extremely leery of people who want to say, “my disability caused me to be immoral.” In my general experience, the home of autistic (I mean, I think, they were actually all diagnosed under the old system…) persons ran more smoothly with less social friction than “normal” society.
@Not Edward: I agree that lawyers are going to lawyer but the expert witness has different obligations.
Another Autie here seconding the comments made by Naglfar, Mrs Obed Marsh etc. Fuck (although not actually, unless it’s with a cactus) Alek Minassian, fuck (ibid.) Incels using being autistic as an excuse to be evil and fuck (ibid.) the enabling, ablist ‘psychologists’ claiming that we have no empathy (thanks Simon Baron-Cohen for that libel) and no understanding of right and wrong.
Almost every autistic person I know has a strong sense of justice and moral code. Hell, I’ve felt so strongly about stuff being WRONG that my sister had to stop me committing technically criminal acts. Because the law is wrong and unjust, and the people benefiting from the law were in the wrong. I haven’t actually got into any trouble and had to go have a cry and offer compensation to the trees murdered. Have you seen that cartoon where a triangle cuts bits off itself to fit round holes after being bullied by circles? Yeah, I want to take the knife away from the tringle and cuddle it until it is well again, and then possibly punch the bullying circles, but I’m not violent so I probably wouldn’t.
Also, it’s already been said, but self-diagnosis is valid because despite the law (Autism Act 2009) here in England it’s really hard to get a diagnosis for most people. A lot of older people are undiagnosed, most women and AFAB people are undiagnosed. The only way you get a diagnosis as an adult is if you have a history of trouble with personal relationships or work. If you manage to find your niche early, you can get through life not needing a diagnosis until something changes dramatically and you have a crash. I know we’re lucky to even have the limited provision we have, I can’t image how much harder it is in other countries.
Minassian’s psychologists are so far out of date with their knowledge that I hope whoever regulates psychologists in Canada reviews their license to practice.
@Naglfar and AdamMurphy
I have an official ASC diagnosis, and I don’t think in images; I unofficially have aphantasia and know a few other auties who do too, even artists. I do learn visually though, verbal and purely written instructions are confusing. I need to either have pictures with the writing or be doing the thing as I work through the instructions. It works best with all three – written instructions, pictures and doing the thing. Thinking in images isn’t an essential part of being autistic, it’s just really common.
In a random side note, I am currently reading Sarah Kurchek’s memoir; she’s funny.
@North Sea Sparkly Dragon: I’m pretty sure all the defence experts are dialling in from the US.
@ viscaria
I understand your point, and it is a common view. However it’s not quite a simple as that.
Lawyers generally operate under something called the cab rank rule. In some places that’s obligatory; in others it’s just considered to be part of the job.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cab-rank_rule
In essence, lawyers have to be like taxis and accept instructions from anyone who asks for their services. We are not allowed to pick and choose clients based on our own beliefs as to who is worthy of a defence.
Similarly with the actual instructions, Whilst there are rules about not lending ourselves to an abuse of process in the legal sense, we aren’t allowed to filter our client’s instructions. If we do it’s a disciplinary matter and also a ground of appeal. To quote the main English case on that…
As I say, I do understand your sentiments. The danger is though when people can’t separate the lawyers from their clients, nor understand the professional and ethical obligations we are bound by. Lawyers have been attacked and even murdered because of that.
Mind you, our own government here is just as bad.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/25/priti-patel-kept-up-anti-lawyer-rhetoric-after-met-warning-on-terror
@Special Frog
In that case, whoever regulates psychologists in the US needs to review their licenses and training because they’re clearly thirty years out of date.
@Alan
Point taken. I didn’t know about that rule, so thank you for telling me about that.
Even before I had that that knowledge, though, I think I was unclear about what I meant to convey. What I was trying to say is that one of the many reasons I couldn’t be a lawyer is that I wouldn’t be able to morally handle a situation like this where I could be doing harm to a whole community in defense of one person. Reading your comment shows me that I could be obligated to do that, and I don’t think I could reckon with that. I wasn’t so much casting judgment on the legal team as saying that I personally don’t know how they can do it. I am casting judgment on the expert witnesses.
Other reasons I couldn’t be a lawyer include that I would be a terrible lawyer.
@ North Sea Sparkly Dragon
You may find this interesting. It’s the CPS guidance here for prosecution defendants with ‘mental disorders’. It’s still in draft form; but it confirms the general legal principle, that autism per se is neither a defence nor mitigation.
It does mention that autism can be an issue in regards to how people behave in interviews and generally; and not to assume that just because someone acts in way that seems ‘inappropriate’ that that can amount to evidence.
(That was an issue in the Lindy Chamberlain case. She was essentially convicted because she didn’t seem suitably ‘upset’)
It does warn that people with autism may of course have other conditions that are relevant to culpability, and to ensure that those aren’t missed because police and prosecutors focus on the autism.
One thing that may assist here is that any ‘experts’ are only permitted to give evidence if they’re licensed under S.12 of the MHA; which requires specialist training in forensic psychiatry.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/publication/mental-health-conditions-and-disorders-draft-prosecution-guidance
@Not Edward
Sure, the lawyers have a job to do, and they’ll do whatever the framework they operate in lets them do, whether or not this might be considered a good thing.
The doctor though? Now they’re the big disappointment. You might hope that an experienced forensic psychiatrist from a prestigious institution, specializing in autism might not be a crank who’d be prepared to do so much damage to a group which you might think they should care about.
But no. He has his pet theory, and he apparently gives no shits that if he’s successful here that he’ll have equated psychopaths with people with autism, and that all the next wave of murderous incels will use the exact same defense has his work will support them.
@Viscaria
An important note is that “extremely” or “severely” autistic are both clinically meaningless terms, no autistic person is more or less autistic than others, they just manifest differently. They’re also commonly used by anti autistic bigots to disregard the voices of autistic people who pass for neurotypical by painting us as “less autistic” and therefore unable to relate to their child. I know you’re not a bigot and I’m not saying you did this, I’m just adding because it’s relevant to the discussion.
@NSSD
I don’t know if this is a common autistic characteristic, but I have a lot of guilt for minor things or mistakes I’ve made even years after the fact where I’ll suddenly think of that and feel bad all over again. So yes, we definitely have empathy.
IIRC Baron-Cohen is also the guy who promoted the “extreme male brain” nonsense. He’s also the cousin of the guy who made Borat.
Interesting. To be clear, I don’t doubt you at all and your experience is valid, it’s just very different than mine, and that’s okay.
The state of autism advocacy here is pretty dismal, given that Autism $peaks publishes huge amounts of eugenicist propaganda that tricks even well meaning allistic folk due to the name. This probably has an impact on psychologists as well, given that many may not have received much training regarding autism. A few years ago I was on a conference call with a man who was supposedly one of the leading autism experts in North America (long story) and I was surprised by his lack of knowledge and answers, or over-reliance on stereotypes.
@Quite a few people.
I agree there is lot more to be concerned about with dodgy “expert” witnesses (rather than lawyers, who are legitimately supposed to be entirely partisan) and I do wonder how well regulated they are in Canada.
Eh, I do think that Minassian (and every criminals) is entitled to a competent defence who will do its damnedest to have a just and as low as possible sentence. It both force the justice system to do things by the book and help the cases where someone is innocent but look guilty as charged.
The thing that is doubtful here is whether that “defence” actually further those goals. I have the feeling it’s more a political statement or self-gratification thing.
@ viscaria
You do need a certain level of detachment, certainly. There’s a lot of dark humour at the Bar; and I think that’s one of the coping mechanisms.
But of course it’s not just lawyers. If Minassian keeled over with a heart attack, even the most left leaning doctor would perform CPR.
Hey; find your own niche!
Autist here.
I don’t know why this isn’t bothering me more, actually, especially since widespread belief in the claims made by Minassian’s defense could lead to us all getting rounded up and put in a camp “for the safety of society”. Perhaps I’m just resigned to this sort of bullshit.
On the comparing-notes front: Strong visualization ability here, but I can also think just fine with words and symbols. I tend to use whatever seems most useful for the particular problem I’m thinking about. If it’s a geometry problem that will often involve visualization. If it’s constructing a narrative it will obviously be verbal. But it’s likely to be a combination of both in most cases. I expect this is probably typical also of NT persons.
The major issues I have are mostly from comorbidities. The peculiar sleeping disorder that keeps me from holding to a regular schedule, for one. I also don’t seem to be able to motivate myself to do less-pleasant chores as easily as NTs, with in recent times growing physical impairment to performing many such tasks as well (particularly, I can no longer tolerate bending over for more than a few seconds at a time for some reason, though I still have the needed mechanical range of motion).
Perhaps my biggest problem is in meeting the expectations of other people. Some of that undoubtedly stems from autism, but I don’t think that can be the full explanation. It could account for cases where I’ve not understood or even known of an expectation but others seem to have genuinely believed they’d communicated it to me adequately. What it can’t account for is the cases where I’ve met clearly-communicated expectations only to be treated as though I hadn’t anyway, through some combination of goalpost-moving, gaslighting, or overt promise-breaking. Nor can it account for cases where the “you didn’t do it right” response was generated by automation of some kind, as were the initially communicated expectations. Autism doesn’t prevent reading and understanding plain-English instructions or even computer code, just nonverbal cues and such from human beings. How can it have been a factor in cases where a human wasn’t in the loop? Except indirectly, of course. As in someone decided “let’s screw with the autistic nerd” and then cheated or otherwise rigged a system for the lulz.
The most consistent message I’ve ever received from the world around me is “you’re not good enough”, and no amount of skilling up, tooling up, or raw effort ever seems to be sufficient to please it, not if it comes from me. I seem to have been marked in some way, early in life, for maltreatment, for having more expected of me than other people in the same area with similar demographics, and likewise having less delivered to me. This shows up in the aforementioned goalpost-moving and similar bullshit, but also in automated systems, where generally the dice seem to be loaded against me in various ways, wherever there’s even the slightest element of chance involved. How the latter rigging was accomplished, or by whom, I couldn’t really say, but no matter where I go or what I do, that mark, whatever it is, is detected and I get discriminatory treatment. This can include interacting with people face to face, interacting with people online, and even solo activities involving automation with some degree of “smarts”. If it’s computerized, apparently it can detect the mark and adjust its rules of operation in response. Somehow.
Perhaps autism is the mark, or is somehow causally related to it (such as, someone marked me because of it, or even because I did something they didn’t like because of it). I don’t really know, nor how to get rid of it. I am curious if anyone else here on the spectrum has had any similar experience with widespread and pervasive goalpost-moving, gaslighting, and dice-loading (accompanied where possible by vehement denials that any such thing is going on, of course) all with the single common underlying message of “you’re not good enough, so fuck you”, and variations on this theme: “No, you didn’t actually put in that much effort” (gaslighting!), “No, the rules were clearly this and not that” (except I distinctly and exactly remember word for word what you said they were, and you are lying now, and maybe I even have a cached copy of a webpage or something proving that you have moved the goal posts and I have in fact scored a goal according to the original, mutually-agreed-upon position of those goal posts), and so on and so forth.
Added to the cases of actually not being able to read expectations people think they are communicating clearly, this has made things almost impossible for me. For example, I’m stuck on a fixed income that barely covers food and shelter here. Why? It’s more like “why not”. The sleep disorder would make it hard to hold down a job. People getting mad because I didn’t do what they were furiously thinking at me to do but never actually told me to do (or not do) would make it hard to hold down a job. My lack of access to affordable transportation would make it hard to hold down a job. And all of that is moot, because once I graduated with a four-year degree in computer science that invisible-to-me mark (whatever it is) accompanied every copy of my resume that I emailed out, and the HR person at the receiving end of every copy took one look at it, saw the mark (whatever it is), and threw it straight into the trash. I could maybe get a job if there were some desperate labor shortage. Maybe.
If anything, the surprising thing to me is that I still have my freedom, such as it is with my general lack of much access to transportation. I’ve had no shortage of threats to it from various people suggesting that I ought to be locked up “for my own benefit”, including even from one or two people here a few months back. But so far, no cops with an arrest warrant smashing in my door, no goons grabbing me off the street into an unmarked white van, no doctors meeting me somewhere I was lured to under false pretenses to hustle me off to some psychiatric “hospital” to be drugged to the point that I don’t know which way is up and locked away in some padded dungeon somewhere to be forgotten by everyone except whoever brings my meals and, of course, forcibly administers more drugs. I don’t know if I’ve just not disappointed everyone’s expectations quite enough yet for that sort of thing to happen (and I don’t believe for one second that simply avoiding committing crimes is any guarantee against being railroaded in at least one of the above-described ways, even in Canada), or if the mark (whatever it is) is paradoxically protecting me by making those who otherwise might lock me up “for my own good” instead just want nothing whatsoever to do with me.
But whatever the reasons for any of the above, that’s been my experience as an autist in a world run by and for neurotypicals … so far.
Another autist here. Since I’m entering this discussion so late, I don’t have much to add since any point I would have expressed has already been made. As always, I’m very impressed by the quality of the comments here. Also, I empathize with the struggles of people like Surplus to Requirements; I really hope that things get better for you.
I’m not autistic, but I am neurodivergent (ADD and sensory processing disorder) and sometimes people who don’t know any better mistake my behaviors for autism.
This bullshit “defense” makes me so angry. The people that do this are so incredibly selfish. They have no idea the trouble they cause when they do this, nor do they care. This makes me sick.
Thanks for this, North Sea Sparkly Dragon.
Coming in late to the discussion too, but really touched as ever by the personal perspectives shared here.
I know it has already been said, but the whole “no empathy” thing really angers me. I work in a service that offers support to (not only autistic) people who need high levels of support and often 24hr assistance. And the whole lie around the lack of empathy pisses me off. The folk I support who have autism are some of the most empathic people I know and I’d describe one guy I work with as being way more empathic than me! So yeah, it’s a crappy argument and defence that is damaging to many people with real lived experience of autism.