Self-identified incel Alek Minassian is currently on trial in Canada for the van attacks that killed ten in Toronto in 2018. His defense? That his autism made him do it, leaving him not criminally responsible for the killings.
One of the psychiatrists testifying on his behalf argued that his thinking was so distorted by “extreme autism” that he was virtually psychotic. The other argued that Minassian was so lacking in empathy he was unable to understand that what he did was wrong.
There are several problems with these arguments. For one thing, autism is not remotely the same as psychosis. For another, despite Minassian’s lack of empathy — a trait shared by many violent criminals — he made it clear in interviews with the two experts that he does indeed know the difference between right and wrong. It seems unlikely that the defense’s logic will convince the judge trying the case.
More broadly, the “autism defense” is distressing because it essentially throws every law-abiding autistic person under the bus, suggesting some sort of innate connection between autism and acts of extreme violence that simply doesn’t exist. As Autism Canada has pointed out in a response to the defense’s arguments, autistic people are far more likely to be the victims of violence rather than the perpetrators.
In an essay on the case, autism activist Sarah Kurchak wrote
The lingering idea that autism alone can make a person violent and dangerous, and the idea that autistic people can’t experience empathy—and that those who don’t experience empathy are dangerous and incapable of caring about others in alternative ways—affects everything from the way that people treat us socially, to our employment prospects, to whether we are able to access autism testing and services at all.
Reading about the Minassian trial, I’m struck by the similarities between his lawyers’ arguments and the ways in which Minassian’s fellow incels also use autism as an excuse for their own foul ideology.
Many incels claim to be autistic, or at least on the spectrum, though it’s hard to know how many of these people are legit and how many are self-diagnosed pretenders. And while it’s likely that the social awkwardness that tends to come with autism has led to romantic difficulties for some incels, autism doesn’t explain or excuse their adoption of a hateful, misogynistic set of beliefs, or the cheering on of mass killers like Minassian and incel “saint” Elliot Rodger, or the acts of outright harassment of women and girls that some incels indulge in.
Just as there is nothing inherent in autism that led to Minassian’s rampage, there is nothing inherent in autism that leads to the so-called “Black Pill.” Pretending there is some innate connection is an insult to the overwhelming majority of autistic people, who are as horrified by incels as the rest of us.
Follow me on Mastodon.
Send tips to dfutrelle at gmail dot com.
We Hunted the Mammoth relies on support from you, its readers, to survive. So please donate here if you can, or at David-Futrelle-1 on Venmo.
This kind of rubbish is infuriating. As someone on the Spectrum who’s dealt with simply trying to make it through everyday human interactions without being looked at as a freak, these hate filled scum do nothing but make life hell for us. (Yes, I’m cranky)
As an autistic person, let me be the first to say, fuck Alek Minassian and fuck anyone else who uses autism as an excuse for terrorism or hatred in any form.
A couple things I would add:
AFAIK lacking empathy has nothing to do with autism, I and every other autistic person I’ve ever known has a normal or above normal capacity for empathy.
As for knowing right from wrong, IIRC autistic people are more likely to be moral (though hard to tell because every study on us tries to position us as evil and inhuman regardless of the results).
One quick note on this: since for many people it’s hard to get a diagnosis (especially for AFAB autistic people or autistic PoC), I don’t think all self diagnosed autistic people should be written off as invalid. That said, I would imagine most incels who argue this are doing so in bad faith, and regardless, autism does not make someone a misogynist. If anything, all the autistic people I know are more progressive and against incel beliefs (though there may be a selection bias here).
I agree with most of this – lawyers and others who use the autism defense for violent criminals, or defend caregivers who murder their disabled charges as “mercy killers,” spread dangerous misconceptions about what it’s like to be disabled. I wish they’d sit down and let us neurodivergent people talk.
I do quibble with the implication that self-diagnosed people are “pretenders.” While I can’t prove it, anecdotal evidence I’ve seen from Autistic Twitter leads me to think most self-diagnosed people are right about themselves, but aren’t able to access a professional diagnosis from a clinician who is knowledgable about autism. In an ideal world every neurodivergent person would get the diagnosis they need to access necessary support, but in the real world there’s a lot of barriers to proper diagnosis – racial, cisheterosexist, monetary, educational, etc.
But even if there is an epidemic of fraudulent autists, that’s not as important to me as autistic people getting the supports and acceptance we need. If normalizing neurodivergence and support for neurodivergent people means some people get accommodations they don’t need,* that’s an acceptable consequence for me.
*To be clear: by “accommodations” for autistic people, I of course do not mean “permission to be bigoted or violent without anybody criticizing you or pushing back.” That is, and should be, unacceptable. I mean things like quiet rooms, talk pads, and fidget toys. I think that’d be great for all autistic people, and even a lot of non-autistic people!
E: Argh, Nalfgar, you’re too fast! You beat me!
I’m glad you made it clear that most people with autism don’t do these things. To ad further autism is not considered a pathology the way sociopathy or psychopathy. I don’t mean to be critical but I think you made a small mistake when you referred to psychosis. I think you meant to say psychopathy. Psychosis is a state and psychopathy is a pathology. Sorry if I am beating a dead horse here.
I was going to leave some links to some things a very bad man, Matt Forney has said about autistic people. But since the last links I left upset people I think I will not leave links for awhile.
As someone with friends on the spectrum present and past? Who might be on it herself? Fuck this guy sideways with a rusty cactus.
Isn’t the whole notion that autistic people lack empathy and / or theory of mind discredited at this stage?
From what I’ve read of the trial that seems to be this alleged expert’s basis for his claim.
Does this expert also believe in refrigerator parents?
That is my understanding as well. It can be hard to read others’ emotions and thus it can sometimes be hard to know what to empathize with, that’s no different from any other high-empathy person who happens to one day find themselves in a context where they aren’t close to the people and don’t yet understand a sub/culture’s rules.
In fact, it’s often the same situation neurotypical people find themselves in when interacting with atypical folks. That doesn’t mean that neurotypicals have no empathy.
The whole thing is a crock.
My brother is legit one of the kindest people I know and I get so pissed off when people pull this autistic people don’t feel empathy shit.
On a related but somewhat more lighthearted topic, I wonder how many autistic folks I run into daily and don’t know it.
The only one I know of for sure recently is a friend of one of my sisters I have spoken to a couple of times over Skype (thanks Covid). I wasn’t aware she was autistic until much later. Merely thought she was nice, intelligent, and a little weird. (She won brownie points with me for liking a TV show I do as well. ;D)
Arsepergers syndrome: Falsely claiming to be autistic in order to avoid the consequences of their arsehole behaviour. See; Don Burke, etc.
@.45
Probably many, by most estimates we make up somewhere around 1.6%-2% of the population (probably significantly more given the lack of diagnoses).
Every time someone uses mental illness to excuse horrendous behaviour, it’s like a punch in the heart. I imagine it must feel similar for autistic folks, seeing this news about Minassian. Not that he – or any incel – would care, but this kind of BS causes so much pain for people, and no doubt feeds right into ongoing mistreatment and discrimination.
So angry right now…
@Naglfar
Hmmmm… well… might be closer than I think.
I just looked up signs and symptoms of autism. Now, I’m not going to make any claims or anything here, but in the space of reading a few articles, I noticed that I: Danced across the kitchen side to side on the balls of my feet, flapped my hands by holding them in the limp wristed postion and rotating my forearms rapidly, wrung my hands several times, and rubbed my stomach and hands repeatedly. None of this is new to me, and represents some of my usual agitated behavior when I know I am alone and no-one is watching. (I didn’t mutter any of my weird catchphrases involving Star Trek that I do sometimes. Note that I often do this kind of thing at work in the stockroom when I am “freaking out about nothing” as some coworkers say.)
Got any opinions on that?
@Mish
Exactly. I remember when I first saw the headline a couple weeks ago that this was the defense being used, I just got this feeling of déjà vu. People talk about this whenever there’s any sort of incident like this, and it’s exhausting each time to repeat the same bits about how we’re not murders, we have empathy, etc etc.
@.45
I’m not a medical professional, so I can’t give a formal diagnosis, but a lot of what you’re describing sounds very reminiscent of things I’ve done or that my friends who are also autistic have done. For instance, a number of those seem like stimming behaviors, which are very common aspects of autism. TL;DR is you may be autistic. If you are, welcome to the club.
A few other questions if you don’t mind (and maybe a few other autistic folks on here have some other ones I didn’t list):
These are all things that I and other autistic people report, so I’m curious if any apply to you.
@Naglfar
Alright. Hope you are OK with a wall of text.
Hmmm… I am a visual learner and frequently respond to coworkers asking things like “So, I’m in the home screen, if I want to look at my paycheck, what blah blah blah” with “I don’t know unless it is in front of me and I am looking at it.” Also, it is rare and interesting to me whenever I actually remember dialogue from dreams, while the visuals stick with me.
However, when I visualize things in my mind, they frequently do not accurately reflect reality. For example, I tend to think of roads as flat and straight, only to note when driving down them that they are curved and hilly. Dunno if this means anything, but I have trouble with faces, judging ages, heights, etc.
I mostly only walk on my toes when I am barefoot, and then only some of the time, particularly when I move quickly (I imagine I resemble Saru from Star Trek: Discovery when I do this).
As I frequently went barefoot as a child I assumed this was simply habit, as walking or running heel first on, say, gravel, is not fun. Still, sometimes I dance back and forth on the balls of my feet even when wearing shoes. I feel like the important point is that oftentimes I do it when I am agitated, especially when in shoes?
Not especially bothered by clothing textures. I often rub my hands on different things and clothes on purpose because of the feel. Now, wooden spoons and popsicle sticks are another story, but I think that is a common complaint. ;D
For areas of interests, yes and no. I tend to focus on something for a while, then move on to something else. Periods can range from days to years, subjects vary. While interested I tend to end up knowing a lot more than the average person, but never commit to it enough to become an expert. Usually end up knowing lots of things about the subject, buying lots of materials and gear for it, without actually practicing the skills much. Guess that makes me something of a poser.
As for touch… sadly, not too many people want to touch me. I feel awkward with hugs and whatnot, but have attributed this to not being touched much in my life. I would like this to change, but have failed to make the necessary advances for anything to happen. I would expect things to be very awkard, but like I said, rather inexperienced in this area. Most of my touching has been in martial arts classes, which didn’t bother me too much, as it was expected and didn’t leave me feeling like I might be doing something wrong.
@ .45
Like Nalfgar, I am not qualified to give a diagnosis, but it sure sounds like you might be autistic to me!
I like to recommend this book, Welcome to the Autistic Community pretty much every chance I get. It’s for autistic people, people who think they might be autistic, and non-autistic people who want to be better allies. It’s written in plain language and is available as a free PDF or ePub. Check it out! https://autisticadvocacy.org/book/welcome-to-the-autistic-community/
~waves both middle fingers at this jackass idea~ me and my autistic hyperempathy both say ‘fuck yoooouuuuu’
I also want to say thank you to everyone here. I have been having a lot of trouble this year, and posting here has been a bit of a desperate attempt to become part of some community. My coworkers are not terrible people, some of them are quite friendly with me, but ultimately I am stressed out at work and not there to socialize. It is nice to have someone pay attention to me and I really appreciate that.
Also, it just occurred to me that the reason I have arch supports in my shoes is because the Redwings salesperson noticed when I stand casually, I do so with much of my weight forward on the balls of my feet.
This tends to scrunch my toes together and has led to joint pain. The arch supports seem to do exactly as the salesperson promised, and even out my weight in my shoes, keep the shoe settled and my toes further back. So, if this toe walking thing really is a big deal…
@.45
A lot of what you’re saying makes it sound like you’re autistic. So while I still can’t formally diagnose you, it definitely appears that you are one of us. Welcome.
Re: walking and shoes
It’s interesting you mention heel walking, I personally tend to walk on my toes but I would imagine that it would also be just as possible for an autistic person to predominantly use their heels.
Well, we’re glad to have you here.
I’m on the spectrum and while that loathsome waste of ontological existence inspires violent impulses in me, I’m civil enough not to actually act on them. It’s called the social contract. The vast majority of people can understand and respect it.
And “extreme autism”!? Seriously!? Fuck that asshole quack shrink, I’ve seen enough fellow people on the spectrum to know that if his autism was strong enough that he couldn’t be held criminally responsible for his actions, he wouldn’t have been able to commit, much less plan them – more extreme cases from what I’ve seen are far too detached from the real world, and often need a guardian to accompany them whenever they go out because the outside world can confuse and frighten them.
Minassian didn’t do this because he’s autistic. He did this because whatever condition he has, he went all the way down the rabbit hole and let his own foibles and hatreds (plus those of rampant ranting randos on the intarwebs) turn him into a sociopath*.
*NOTE: Not a qualified psychologist/psychiatrist/therapist, but the shitnozzle looks like he’s got all the traits of antisocial personality disorder down pat, so if the shoe fits…
The defense’s use of the term “extreme autism” for someone who doesn’t seem to have a speech impairment and was able to handle a university curriculum shows just how meaningless labels like “high/low functioning” or “mild/severe autism” really are. They’re based on the observer’s subjective judgment of how “not normal” someone appears to be. There’s a huge amount of variability in autistic people’s abilities and impairments, not only from autistic person to autistic person, but sometimes even within the same person over time. (For example, I and many other “high functioning” autistic people have the skill of masking, or pretending to be non-autistic, but the stress of maintaining our masks can lead us to burn out and become “lower functioning.”) The “high/low functioning” binary doesn’t even begin to capture that kind of nuance.
Functioning labels also lead many people – including relatives of and service providers to autistic people, sadly – to assume that “high functioning” autistics don’t need support (we do) and “low functioning” autistics can’t be trusted to make decisions about their own lives (they can). These misconceptions do so much damage to all autistic people. That’s why most people in the neurodiversity movement don’t use functioning labels. We prefer to talk about low/medium/high support needs, or better yet, talk about specific impairments (like “non-verbal”), behaviors (“flaps and rocks”), or needed accommodations (“needs a support worker to help with chores”).
I hate that, too.
At that point I believe it could be good to jettison the autism term entirely. Few peoples are aware of what it’s supposed to mean, and the term feel tainted by all the way it’s used as an insult or a superpower.
@Mrs Obed Marsh, my relative to a T. They used to have extremely noticeable communication issues but mask quite effectively these days, so people assume they don’t need any support or accomodations. I think it must be very draining. No spoons for the executive-function things they find even more impossibly hard than most.
And of course the added isolation of lockdown, and its direct plus knock-on effects on their former activities (such as venues closing for lockdown, and then having no income, so many may never re-open) is devastating. I try to be supportive, but that is of very limited usefulness 🙁
I’ve been meaning to get tested if I am autistic, but I also have severe agoraphobia and it doesn’t help.
Many of the things said apply to me.
I’m just upset because I can’t get the help I need because of my high anxiety.