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TERFs transphobia

Transphobes baffled, enraged by Elliot Page’s coming out as trans

Elliot Page

It was a bad day for transphobes. Yesterday, Elliot Page — famous for Juno and his current role in the Umbrella Academy — came out as trans. “I can’t begin to express how remarkable it feels to finally love who I am enough to pursue my authentic self,” he wrote in a statement.

While trans folks and their allies celebrated the news, so-called “gender critical” transphobes groused, complaining that they’d lost a lesbian to the “trans cult.” On the Gender Critical forum on Saidit, the regulars did their best to explain away Page’s announcement. (CW: Transphobia, biphobia, misgendering, deadnaming, general stupidity.)

“This smells a lot like a well planned publicity move,” complained hfxB0oyA.

“I’m 50% sure this is a publicist imposed idea,” agreed LeaveAmsgAfterBeep,

kind of like how a lot of female musicians claim to be bi and are not because their publishers told them it’d make male fans find them more interesting and make female fans think they have a chance or something.

I don’t think that’s a thing, but whatever.

“I wouldn’t doubt for a second that this is a calculated move from the talent agency and publicist,” added bopomofodojo.

“Come out as trans now, you’ll go up 8% in approval ratings among wokies and that will sell your next role”. … [M]aybe Ellen cough sorry Elliot, just wants to play a transman in an upcoming movie and is concerned about the woke backlash. What better way around it than to just claim she’s a man?

I’m sure there could be personal aspects to it as well. Maybe the Hollywood woke scene finally convinced her that she must really be a man since she doesn’t like dick, who knows. Like everything about genderism, and cults in general, the motivations of the true believers and victims cannot truly be known.

When this shit falls out of fashion – either genderism or Page’s career, whichever is first, I bet she’ll be right back to boring lesbian Ellen Page.

I’ll take the other side of that bet.

“This pathetic jockeying for the limelight has gotten to the point that celebrities should start getting annual awards for the most attention-seeking ways of making use of gender identity idiocy,” wrote someone called MarkTwainiac.

A commenter called yousaythosethings suggested that Elliot — a 33-year-old adult — had been “groomed” into transness by the Human Rights Campaign. “Obviously she’s a grown woman (or was lol), but I’m sure it has been difficult for her to be a tomboyish lesbian in Hollywood,” yousaythosethings added.

Some claimed to have been vaguely traumatized by Page’s announcement.

“I feel like a pit has opened up in my stomach,” wrote Sistersovermisters.

I really loved how she was contributing to gender non-forming expression and just so many different aspects of her, including her lesbian status, made me respect her so much. We were the same height, too!

Now I feel even more alone … .

“[Y]eah I came here to see if anyone else felt this way,” responded Fedup31.

Always related a lot to her. Now feel even more like there’s no place for gender-non-conforming women my age without being expected to be trans.

Others agreed that this was somehow discriminatory against women — at least those of the gender-nonconforming type. Wrote MinisterofTerfery:

What is going on is that people have realized they will get more support and love if they are trans than if they are a gay gender non conforming woman. Netflix is already saying they will incorporate this in The Umbrella Academy. When has [Hollywood] ever bended itself backwards for women like that? 

However twisted the logic, this commenter at least sort of recognizes Page as a “he,” not a “she.”

Others questioned Page’s commitment to transness. “W]atch her do nothing more than dress a little more butch, cut the hair, ditch any and all makeup and LARP as a man,” sneered Finnegan7921. “Probably wont do hormones or surgery, but will get cast in trans roles.”

One commenter even complained that Page’s transition will make dating harder for lesbians.

“We’re losing our already tiny pool of lesbians to the trans cult, that’s what’s going on,” wrote Liz-B-Ann.

Those who don’t marry men now feel the need to BECOME them. Does anyone know how fucking depressing it is to be lesbian in 2020? Do they care? No, because we’re just seen as a goddamn fetish for the world. At least gay men generally are secure in their identities as males who love males. Women are so vulnerable to this type of shit. Ugh.

Hope she enjoys having an even tinier dating pool than me tho. Good luck with that.

Page is married.

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Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 months ago

W]atch her do nothing more than dress a little more butch, cut the hair, ditch any and all makeup and LARP as a man,” sneered Finnegan7921. “Probably wont do hormones or surgery, but will get cast in trans roles.”

Pretty sure there’s more than one way to be trans, but OK Finnegan7921!

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
4 months ago

Not only is Page married, but his wife has issued an official message of support.

I’ve been a big fan of his work since Hard Candy, and I’m interested in seeing what happens with his role in The Umbrella Academy. I like that Netflix has updated the descriptions to say “Elliot Page” and if you search for his former name, you’re redirected to his current name.

Allandrel
Allandrel
4 months ago

Wrote MinisterofTerfery

That’s funny, they keep saying that TERF is a slur. It’s almost like they’re lying…

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

I confess I didn’t know who Elliot Page was until he came out, but good for him nevertheless and I support him.

“Come out as trans now, you’ll go up 8% in approval ratings among wokies and that will sell your next role”.

I originally read this as “Wookies” and since that sounds better I’ll think of it that way. Chewbacca says trans rights.

Maybe the Hollywood woke scene

And that doesn’t sound at all like a dogwhistle.

We were the same height, too!

This is just a weird thing to obsess over.

Now feel even more like there’s no place for gender-non-conforming women my age without being expected to be trans.

I know a lot of GNC women and no one is forcing them to be trans. Transphobes are too busy harassing them on the suspicion that they’re trans.

Probably wont do hormones or surgery, but will get cast in trans roles.

TERFs: “Trans people are ruining their bodies with hormones and surgery!”
Also TERFs: “Trans people aren’t getting enough hormones and surgery! Aah!”

One commenter even complained that Page’s transition will make dating harder for lesbians.

I saw a lot of this on Twitter earlier and it stuck out to me as really gross. The level of entitlement cis TERFs have to trans peoples’ bodies is disgusting.

Also, IIRC Elliot’s wife is very supportive of him coming out.

Crip Dyke
4 months ago

Did anyone else notice that they are consistently misgendering Elliot Page, or at least gendering him with language they haven’t used for himself?

Page specifically says in the announcement that their pronouns are he/they, which is definitely more masculine-inclusive than she or she/they, but Elliot never says, “I am a man.” Instead they say: “I am trans.”

We don’t know what that means to Page, but he’s smart enough that if they wanted to say, “II am a man” he certainly could have done that.

Fuck them and the cissexism they rode in on.

For people who are interested, I’ve written a couple pieces on this already & will be writing more.

The first two are here & here. This is a much bigger deal than merely celebrity personal lives made news.

.45
.45
4 months ago

“Like everything about genderism, and cults in general, the motivations of the true believers and victims cannot truly be known.”

Too bad you can’t, you know, ask them or something…

Crip Dyke
4 months ago

As a total aside, does anyone else find this language deeply weird:

I’m 50% sure this is a publicist imposed idea

If you said you were “50% sure” that a coin would land tails up, should you really be using “sure” in your description at all?

I mean, I understand what they’re trying to express, I think, so I could stop worrying about the syntactic niceties, but it really is weirding me out.


Lainy
Lainy
4 months ago

The idea that this grown adult is being “groomed” by someone to be trans is really a take. This people are just showing themselves to be like misogynist who don’t think people with vaginas are able to be grown adults.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Crip Dyke
They should try publishing in a scientific journal with a p-value of 0.5 and see where that gets them.

@Lainy

The idea that this grown adult is being “groomed” by someone to be trans is really a take. This people are just showing themselves to be like misogynist who don’t think people with vaginas are able to be grown adults.

That stuck out to me as well. Transphobes always infantilize transmasculine people, and just can’t conceive of them as adults capable of make their own decisions. Meanwhile they view all transfeminine people, even young girls, as predatory. All while claiming that they’re feminists and against stereotypes.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
4 months ago

Sort of ridiculous that an actor would come out as transmasc to get roles when there’s a lot more roles out there for cis women and purely in terms of getting work, it’d be a lot safer and easier for Elliot Page to continue to present as a cis women. Because his career was doing quite well as it was.

Seconding the love for Hard Candy. Considering that it’s about a predatory men being given his comeuppance by a teenage girl, I’m surprised there hasn’t been more whining from the manosphere and alt-right about it. Maybe now, there will be!

epronovost
epronovost
4 months ago

I kinda get the people who could be distressed at the idea of losing “an ambassador” of their particular sexual minority, but the transphobia is simply excessive.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@epronovost

I kinda get the people who could be distressed at the idea of losing “an ambassador” of their particular sexual minority

I still think it’s wrong, though. They’re angry that he’s no longer in their dating pool that they have limited to cis women. Nevermind that he’s married, nevermind that he still is the same person, they still think they’re entitled to his body. That’s all it is, sexual entitlement.

Lainy
Lainy
4 months ago

@epronovost

There are a lot of other butch cis lesbians out in the world. They could just be happy for him that he’s living his truth and move on and keep any hurt feelings to themselves because it’s not about them. to me it sounds like “damn, i wish you stayed in the closet because it benefits me and that’s all i really care about”

Tyne
Tyne
4 months ago

Oh no, that interview with Bolsonaro must have been hell for him. It looked uncomfortable for a lesbian, for a trans man welp, I feel nauseous just thinking about it.

LollyPop
LollyPop
4 months ago

I’d have a lot more sympathy for these types (if they didn’t also engage in harassment etc) if they just said “discussions I was once the center of have now broadened in scope. I find the new language and ideas alienating and disorientating, my ideology no longer matches with the lived experience of people I feel should be my allies (and for some reason, also my “dating pool”). I don’t understand it, I find it frightening, but I’m gonna keep those thoughts to myself, stop telling people I know better than them, and refer to people as they have asked to be referred to like any other polite human being”.

You don’t always have to understand or empathize with something to be a lowest-bar level of decent person. You don’t even have to listen to people if you don’t want, and remain as ignorant between the own four walls of your head as you like. It’s not ideal, but like the granddad who’s a bit behind the times so simply just stops talking when he realises what he’s said might upset people, you don’t have to go out of your way to be a arsehole. Instead, people who were once apparently feminists have made prejudice their defining viewpoint and “activism”. It’s baffling.

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
4 months ago

Considering the man-LARPing: It isn’t a matter of being trans enough, it’s a matter of what solution fixes you specific brand of dysphoria. Not having the surgery or hormones is perfectly valid. I plan to do both because my dysphoria is very body-focused, and it’s very possible I’ll find more importance in the social aspect when that starts (pronouns, namechange etc. Something I already experiment with in trans spaces).

On that note, I came out to my employers yesterday, who were also very supportive and understanding, and who stressed that if there’s anything they can do to make things easier/better I just had to ask. It will be some time before I actually start the whole transitioning thing, since there’s a waiting list, but it’s good to know I have a strong support network.

I hope for the best for anyone else who is struggling. Hope you have at least half the luck I’ve had so far (though all of it would be preferred).

Amadaun
Amadaun
4 months ago

I don’t know a lot about TERFs, but don’t they usually hate people who don’t conform to gender roles?

occasional reader
occasional reader
4 months ago

Complaining about gender – or absence of – seems a constant nowadays.
It is not fully related but not fully unrelated too :
i bought Empire of Sin and it has been released about yesterday. Sure, there are bugs, and of course a lot of people complaining about it (at least on Steam). Nothing wrong with that (except the entitlement of randoms EXIGING vehemently that their bug be corrected IMMEDIATLY).
But outside the bugs, the louder complaints come from people judging that there are too many “woman” bosses, not enough cis men in the henchmen roster, that the top three henchmen being an a-gender (i think the term trans*man was not yet coined in 1920) and two women is an insult, because in their reality, prohibition and “gangs” were only a “man” thing, and so on. So, that is the usual “Go woke, go broke” stuff, and the “reality was different”, the director of the project being a woman, you guess there advice about that (but they bought the game anyway, do not ask for logic). It is a game. It was not meant to be realistic. Nowhere in the reality you enter a building, kill some people and claim it as yours, while it immediately fill itself with employees. Nowhere in reality Capone was an ace of the Tommygun. And their fucking “reality” is just the deformed image of the Prohibition and mafia they have from movies from The Godfather to Scarface.
And that is why you can hardly play a game without hearing the howling of the misogynist herd outside. Gamergate is not dead, alas.

Amadaun
Amadaun
4 months ago

Also, I’m ace, but…

Edit: How do you add a picture? Because I flubbed that big time.

Last edited 4 months ago by Amadaun
Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Amadaun

I don’t know a lot about TERFs, but don’t they usually hate people who don’t conform to gender roles?

That is correct, they do hate people who don’t conform. They usually claim otherwise to try to look better, but they usually really hate people who don’t conform. Hence why, among other things, they often say that harassment of GNC women is acceptable collateral damage to keep trans women out.

As for images, you can embed an image from the web by pasting its URL. Make sure it ends with an image extension like .png or .jpg.

rv97
rv97
4 months ago

@occasional reader

I don’t get the fascination with historical shit anyway generally. I’ve seen it come up a lot very recently. I still want more games from the 2000s onwards or set in the future.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 months ago

The point about fake lesbian reminded me of a couple of singers who had a lesbian persona on scene but each was in a stable heterosexual couple.

The thing being, even that’s not a proof of not being bisexual. AFAIK, plenty of bisexual peoples are monogamous for long period of time.

Apart from that, bleurgh at all thoses hateful fuckers. Especially here, anybody with half a brain would correctly guess that Page will hurt his career much more than help it going out of the closet. I applaud his courage.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Ohlmann

plenty of bisexual peoples are monogamous for long period of time.

Yes, most are in monogamous relationships. The stereotype of bisexual people as promiscuous isn’t accurate irl.

Hambeast
Hambeast
4 months ago

Oh, those poor FARTS! A celebrity they liked has let them down without considering their feelings. How rude! Perhaps someone should, oh I don’t know, do an interpretive dance or something to soothe those ruffled feathers? Or maybe they could grow up and realize that people in the public eye are still people and entitled to their own lives and don’t owe them anything besides the best work they can do?

I never have understood the popular fixation on celebrities. It never seems (to me) to go anywhere constructive.

.45
.45
4 months ago

@Naglfar

“Yes, most are in monogamous relationships. The stereotype of bisexual people as promiscuous isn’t accurate irl.”

The first time I heard that particular belief was when one of my sisters was trying to decide whether or not she should tell her boyfriend she was bi. My mother suddenly goes “But how do you think he is going to respond to finding out you’re cheating on him?!?!” The rest of us were all “Wait, what?”

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@.45

My mother suddenly goes “But how do you think he is going to respond to finding out you’re cheating on him?!?!” The rest of us were all “Wait, what?”

Yeah, that stereotype is pretty pervasive, to the point that the bisexual manifesto has a whole section tearing it down. It’s also probably the main reason I’ve never been out as bi IRL.

Crip Dyke
4 months ago

@.45 & Naglfar

That stereotype is why the premiere US magazine for bi/pan folks was called Anything That Moves. I used to buy every issue there for a long time. Started collecting them in 91 or 92, I think, buying them in the first feminist sex shop Portland ever had. Later I picked them up at a feminist bookstore that was closer to where I live. I only have a couple issues left after the number of moves I’ve had in the last 20 years, but it was well worth the reading.

A lot of it (not all of it) was topical, of course, so maybe a good portion of the content wouldn’t stand up today when we no longer care about Clinton being a jerk with “don’t ask don’t tell”, but even those things would at least be useful to someone looking at queer history. I should try to find a collection in a library somewhere.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
4 months ago

OT, but the entire Jordan Owen thread has apparently disappeared from this site. Reloading it to check for new comments produced a 404! Presumably a malfunction, but a severe one causing a loss of publicly-visible data.

The “incels wonder…” thread is still misrendering, as well.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Crip Dyke (and anyone else who wants it)
Some dedicated enthusiasts have digitized the entire back catalog:
https://anythingthatmovesarchive.carrd.co/#scans
I haven’t read most of it, but it’s there.

epitome of incomrepehensibility

I saw this on Tuesday evening! I was tutoring a high school student and had to look up something in the Canadian Encyclopedia online. I saw that Elliot Page come out as trans and ALSO the encyclopedia updated his name right away, a few hours after he’d made the announcement. So that was sort of heartwarming in this bad-news climate.

Re bi stereotypes: aaaugh, don’t get me started. (I get started…)

This reminds me of something my dad wrote. He’s been trying to mediate between what amounts to pro & anti queer inclusion in a particular church denomination here. Anyway, I don’t know why he showed this file to me, but in one part he wrote that there were legitimate concerns trying to accommodate all sexual minorities, e.g. if someone says they’re bisexual and wants to live with a man and a woman (shocking, shocking).

This made me mad and I was like, “You think there are no monogamous bisexuals? Hello, I am HERE. Look into my EYES” and so on.

Yeah, I was silly and over-the-top. But I think maybe I helped change his mind a bit. To my friend later I said, “I’m not coordinated enough for threesomes” – jokey statement I’d be embarrassed to make to parents – but it’s more of a personality thing, not being that outgoing and all.

But I don’t mean to demean poly folks at the same time! A writer I follow on Twitter talks about being proudly bi and poly (and also trans, which the people quoted above wouldn’t like so much) and it wouldn’t be fair to say “OK, you have to be dating only one person at a time now, because combating stereotypes.”

And I’m lucky. Parents aside, I’m not really frowned on for my orientation – though again, I don’t know gobs of people, so maybe the isolation helps 😛

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 months ago

A lot of people expect a bisexual, or an homosexual for that matter, to regulary have sex corresponding to his/her orientation, so with at least two partner for a bisexual. Because else why define as a bisexual ?

Alan Robertshaw
4 months ago

@ ohlmann

to regulary have sex corresponding to his/her orientation

If that’s the case then thank goodness this lockdown ended before my heterosexuality wore off! 😀

Banananananana dakry: still fat and deranged
Banananananana dakry: still fat and deranged
4 months ago

@Battering Lamb

Am very glad that you have supportive employers in this dumpster fire of a year. I wish more people had them, but I’m overjoyed that you’ve got them when you need them most.

Sheila Crosby
Sheila Crosby
4 months ago

I’ve always found the assumption that bi people will cheat to be bizarre. I mean, the wprld is ful of attractive people who aren’t my husband and I manage to keep my promises. If I were bu, then presumably there’d be twice as many attrative people who weren’t my husband, but I expect I’d still keep my promises

Paireon
Paireon
4 months ago

Welp. That was a thing. Personally if this makes him feel better about himself to come out then I’m all for it; don’t know much about his personal life/opinions about anything so gonna assume he’s a decent person.

Personal opinion here: Given how misandrist a lot of the responses seem to be, I’m assuming a lot of these TERFs are actually feminist, mostly because I don’t see any ideology/opinion making you automatically a decent person even if some ideologies/opinions do automatically make you an asshole (i.e. if someone is a fascist, they’re automatically an asshole; if someone is anti-fascist, they’re not automatically decent). While I’m fully aware that the vast majority of feminists aren’t misandrists, there is a small minority that undoubtedly is, especially amidst the more hardcore fringes like woman/lesbian separatists; as such, like other hateful people, they put their hatred above everything else, which likely fuels a hatred of trans people (trans women are actually crossdressing predators, trans men are either confused, self-hating or gender traitors). I think that makes them susceptible to TERF rhetoric, and easy to recruit as fellow travellers/deflector shields by the more right-wing TERFs.

If more knowledgeable people here wish to correct me/elaborate, please do so; I prefer knowledge to opinions any day.

Last edited 4 months ago by Paireon
Dalillama
4 months ago

@Paireon
Summed up by Niven’s Law: No cause is ever so pure and noble that it won’t attract fuckheads.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Paireon

I’m assuming a lot of these TERFs are actually feminist

Some may be, but I would be hesitant to say a lot. For one, there’s a big difference between hating men and being a feminist, much as hating white people is not the same as being an anti-racist. For two, they don’t appear to hate men as a whole, they appear to specifically hate trans men. Then, there’s the fact that presumably if they believe (incorrectly) that Elliot is a woman and are feminists, presumably they still wouldn’t have this sense of entitlement to his body because that would be antifeminist.

TL;DR, although it’s impossible for me to say for sure given the information here, I would not consider any of the views expressed by the OPs to be feminist.

Paireon
Paireon
4 months ago

@Dalillama – Ain’t that the truth. Goes hand-in-hand with an observation of mine (that someone else I’m unaware of has surely made and recorded for posterity, probably in better words): for every person, there’s an asshole.

@Naglfar – Thanks for your thoughts on this; gotta say I tend to be wary of anything even remotely related/resembling a “no true Scotsman” argument though, and having people overall following an ideology while simultaneously betraying it/holding some tenets contrary to it (for good or ill) is a very common human trait.

I’m just wary of people in general (myself included).

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 months ago

@Paireon : I didn’t have seen much misandrist being feminist TBH. Hating male isn’t the same as doing jack shit for women, and the people you describe are AFAIK a lot more concerned with making people suffer than doing anything for anyone.

Similarly, MTGOW and the like aren’t in favor of men right.

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
4 months ago

I’m finding their “oh, no, we can’t hit it anymore” attitude every bit as gross and objectifying as those sites with the countdown clocks for when a young woman celebrity becomes “legal” 🤮

Numenaster
Numenaster
4 months ago

plenty of bisexual peoples are monogamous for long period of time.”

Yep. I was monogamous with my late wife for the 17 years we had together. I remember when we first got together, she cautioned me that people were going to think I was a lesbian now (I was dating a guy before I met her). I asked her if she thought being out as a bisexual was going to be viewed any better, and she admitted it wasn’t.

Kereea
Kereea
4 months ago

As a gal who’s never been super “gender conforming” I am always VERY confused at this idea that trans guys are somehow…making things harder for us? Like, Elliot Page in no way effected my sense of dress before or after transitioning. So how is he hurting me? I’ve still got my boots, jeans, and short hair (well, the latter only after my mother finally cut it for me, coronavirus sux and I am NOT going in a salon right now).

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
4 months ago

So how is he hurting me?

He’s not, of course. It’s just a variant on the old fundie fear that someone, somewhere is having fun/being happy.

PeerVgrl
PeerVgrl
2 months ago
  1. Yes, straight female musicians have been pressured by male managers & PR people to appear/pretend to be bi. This is a real thing that has happened. Look up Nicki Minaj, e.g. as reported in Out magazine.
  2. Is a lot of this material you linked to hateful towards a particular person and making a lot of assumptions? Yes, and I don’t support it. …Could we also, just maybe, LISTEN to lesbians, too? Because fuck yeah, there are cultural forces, including religious conservatives, pressuring butch lesbians to “just be men” and it’s bullshit. In no way am I saying that all FtM people are “fake” and in no way am I saying that those forces are trans people’s fault (I suspect most trans people would just like to be left alone and kept out of culture wars), but it’s a real thing that happens. Stop denying lesbian experiences (Mr. Not-A-Lesbian, ahem), even if they are sharing those experiences in hateful/reactionary ways and their anger and frustration is misdirected toward Elliot Page in particular. Focus on that part, don’t tell lesbians that none of it is real.
PeerVgrl
PeerVgrl
2 months ago

Also, side note: stop adding to the rightwing noise machine that is trying to amplify the divide of rad fems/lesbians vs. trans people. I suspect, when the dust settles, we’ll find that there is some serious false flagging fanning the flames (alliteration!) and religious conservatism infiltrating trans rights activism. The infighting is gross and a lot of people — including lesbians and people who legitimately call themselves feminists — are being assholes. But Progressives need to let it play out, let the good people figure out that they’re being assholes, and focus on the solidarity, laws, and support that we can create together. Making a thing out of the transphobia coming from an INCREDIBLY marginalized group (especially justifying your outrage by playing Oppression Olympics, not that you’ve evoked that, but it comes up often enough) is doing the job of the misogynistic alt-right for them. Your platform is better than that.