Over in the MGTOW subreddit, the regulars recently found themselves debating “Why do women hate when men get with younger *legal aged* chicks so much?” Naturally, the assorted commenters had a lot of very creepy opinions on the subject.
“Seriously, all I see nowadays is men being called predators for dating legal 18 year old girls,” complained the OP, a felllow calling himself outtacontroIl.
Women, simps, and the new generation practically bombard any post about a legal age gap and call the older party a predator. Teenagers are not children, they are adolescents.
He boasted about his own (alleged) experience with some of these “younger *legal age* chicks.”
I’m 31, live in the UK, age of consent is 16. Fucked and dated plenty 16, 17, 18 year old girls. They’re in their sexual and thoughtful prime.
Ew.
A woman my age is not. A woman my age also cannot be taught anything. Men are supposed to teach. I taught those those young women about being feminist indoctrination [sic], the natural roles of men and women, and liberal brainwashing. I gave them some sense of values. Much better than the “I don’t need no man!” 31 year old cat lady.
Only a tiny handful of the commenters had any problem with outtacontroIl dating girls around half his age. As far as the majority of the commenters saw it, the real problem is that older women are jealous of younger women and girls.
“Women hate younger women,” declared someone called MGTOWlF7xEtsJyj.
“[T]here is no way in the seven kingdoms a bitter FDS [Female Dating Strategy subreddit] hag can compete with a hot legal chick in her sexual and unbaggaged prime,” agreed External-Can-7839.
“[T]hose 30+ women blew their window to settle down with a good man who meets their strict standards,” argued MuchIndependence,
and now they’re left facing the reality that they either have to settle for a 30+ man who isn’t good enough to attract younger or a man who does but is older.
shaming is the last ditch effort to try and convince good men that we’re filthy antisocial predators if we date any younger and that of course would mean having to date women our own age.
“Older women know that they can’t compete with young women,” wrote Jaren01.
Also there is nothing worse to a woman than being shamed so they try to do the same thing to men.
Women have no real morals. Justice, fairness, honor, these are concepts that women can never truly understand. Women will say and do anything to gain an advantage in life, anything. They will lie about rape, they will murder their own children and they wont even think they did anything wrong because to a woman the greatest good is whatever is best for her.
Apparently complaining about predatory dating behavior is the moral equivalent of child murder.
So why do men date younger women anyway?
“Because we can,” sneered bjred78.
I never date anyone over 30. Wymin my age are all fat with crotch goblins. Like I told my 42 year old, obese single mother co-worker, I work out, I’m fit, healthy and have money. Why would I or anyone else in my position throw it away to settle with a land whale roastie?
I’ll stick to the 20 year old who buys me stuff and leaves me alone, all I have to do is fuck her once a week.
Others insisted that there weren’t any real differences in maturity between teen girls and adult women anyway, so the accusations of predatory dating were meaningless.
“Women never really mature past a certain stage,” 0signal0 contended.
What for? The are pampered by the world around them,
This is why there are no real differences between a 16-year-old girl and a 30-year-old woman, other than the teenager being more attractive and less damaged.
Others suggested that the maturity cutoff age for women was closer to 14 or 15.
“Women stop maturing mentally near the end of puberty,” argued Jarin01.
For a woman that is around 14 or 15 years old. They might gain more experience after that but they never really mature beyond the mentality of a teenager.
Women become easy to deal with when you realize that you are talking to a child.
In a followup comment he explained the “science” behind this argument.
A man’s brain is larger and has more grey matter. A woman’s brain is pretty much fully developed by the end of puberty, around 14-16. A man’s on the other hand is still developing until around 25.
No, the brains of men, women and nonbinary folks are all still developing until the age of 25.
It’s very difficult to find scientific studies about this because it wouldn’t be politically correct to say there are physical differences between men and women’s brains. If you Google it everything you find will just say that “kids” brains can take until they are 25 to fully develop. They are very careful to not mention any difference between if those kids are male or female.
But I have been able to find some papers that show that most of the brain development takes place during puberty so it would make sense that if girls start puberty earlier and finish earlier than boys that their brains would fully develop earlier too. So by the time her brain is fully developed she is still only about 14 or 15 years old. Which is exactly how most women act, like they are still 14 or 15 years old.
It’s all very scientific, you see, according to the prestigious Journal of Some Papers I Once Saw.
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@Seth S
I’m sorry you’ve suffered for so long, and I’m sorry your ex husband mistreated you. I sympathize with the fear of being manipulated, I’ve also had my fair share of relationships where I got screwed over (maybe a common trans experience?), and I don’t mean to imply at all that you should have to choose between sex and transitioning.
As someone who also has yet to be out publicly or to transition, I can relate to this feeling. I actually made a point of avoiding relationships during the period where I knew I was trans but couldn’t admit it to myself, even pre-pandemic, because I was scared as to how people would react when I came out.
TL;DR is Idk your situation and I can’t tell you the best course, sorry that I’m not all that helpful.
@Naglfar
Oh, you have nothing to apologize for! I probably shouldn’t have dumped, that was a lot… but … I don’t get a lot of opportunities to talk about it, especially under quarantine, so… sorry. It’s not like any kind of simple advice can fix that much stuff at once, anyway. It’s complex and multilayered and some of it I’m just going to have to wait out, I guess.
It’s comforting to know that other people can at least sympathize with some facets of the difficulties of believing that one is worthy of love, whether due to self identity insecurities, or because of training by others to believe you don’t deserve love unless you earn it, or some combo, or something else entirely.
Thank you for listening.
@Seth S
It’s not a problem at all. If you need to vent, we’re here for you.
@Seth S
I’d like to second that. I think almost everyone here will have your back and will at least listen, even though we can’t do much else.
fwiw, I think if you can be happy in your own skin, that will help you find the special someone you deserve.
@Seth S: I agree with Naglfar and Sheila. We’re here for you. I’m with you on the self loathing thing. I haven’t even started transitioning and don’t think I want to anymore, but it seems no matter who I am nobody likes me. They keep saying I have to love myself first but I’ve loved plenty of people who hate themselves so I know that’s bs. I hope things improve for you soon.
@Seth S:
in the circles that I travel, there’s a lot of cissexism, but it’s acknowlged and people are obviously trying to do better. So you’ll have people who won’t date you because you’re trans or NB or whatever unique thing you are, but they’re honest about it in non-hurtful language, (e.g. “I’m just not into_______”). Meanwhile, though there are a bunch of people that still won’t date people like you, there are a lot who will, and for the most part the people who will are simply better people who are more worth your time.
Even the sluttiest person would have a very hard time maintaining romantic/sexual relationships with 20 people at once. If you life in a city with 100 thousand straight/cis people, 1 percent is literally a thousand people, so you only need to be attractive to 2% of them to fuck twenty, And that was worst case when surveying actual straight, cis folks. 50% of trans folks in your survey were up for dating binary-gendered trans folks. And how many trans folks are in that city of 100k straight/cis folks? Then there are the queers (not the gays or the lesbians, the queers) who I’m sure are over 90% willing to date trans folks. And I gotta tell you, we queers are the bomb. You definitely want to hang out with us. You’ll find some cool straight/cis folks, but as a community we queers are not to be missed.
There really are enough people out there for you to find the folks you need, the support you need, the touch you need. We can help fulfill the first two, but we can’t touch over the internet. That’s true.
But that 1% f straight/cis folks is more than you think. Every time you visit a grocery store, there’s 1 straight/cis person who wants in your pants. Every fifth time you ride the bus, there’s 1 straight/cis person who wants to suck your toes or drag their teeth across the base of your neck.
Even if the straight/cis folks are your kink, you can do this.
The more you feel yourself, the more confident you can be, the more you can articulate what it is you want, and the more easy it will be to find others who want your super-fuckable body.
You can do this.
The past three years aren’t your future. Your skin will be touched, your spine will tingle, your mouth will water, your abdomen will spasm, your body will shake.
You will find your people. You will be lavished with touch.
You can do this.
@Crip Dyke: you make me wish I didn’t go back in the closet. I know what I identify as, but I see so much anti-LGBTQ+ stuff and my family not being accepting makes it worse.
I just want to speak up to join the chorus of people who are open to listening. As Naglfar and others said, we are here for you.
@Crip Dyke
This is probably a dumb question, but in this context, what does that mean? I thought it was an umbrella term that would include both of the aforementioned groups.
For a long time there have been conservative, (usually middle-class or wealthy) people who fall in love with and / or fuck their own gender but who insist that they’re really just like straight people.
The ads for political equality that feature a couple of nice, white lesbians or gay men mowing their lawns (of their own house!) on a beautiful summer day (mysteriously without sweating) and talking about how important it is that they can get a marriage license from the state and join a country club just like you! – those are the ads that don’t emphasize that difference is great, and that we should’t be expected to be all the same, and that rights shouldn’t be based on all of us being the same. Those are the ads that say, “don’t hate me for being different because actually I’m the same as you!” rather than saying, “Who gives a shit if I’m different, hating people for being different is a horrible thing to do?”
In this particular context of my comment, Queers are different. They aren’t the power establishment, they aren’t trying to be the power establishment, and they don’t give a fuck if the people in power want to have the over for dinner. Gays & Lesbians are the people who desperately seek to be part of the same privileged structures that are responsible for heterosexism.
Now, of course life isn’t as simple as this, but the people who are too polite to utter the words “I am queer” and don’t worry about police brutality nearly as much as they worry about their marginal tax rates do exist. And from at least the time of Stonewall there have been fights between the people who can’t hide their differences and/or don’t want to and the people who want to blend harmoniously in with the beautiful & powerful. The “gays & lesbians” in this formulation are those who want an invitation to the cocktail party rather than to change the world that makes rich people’s cocktail parties the subject of national news coverage on Entertainment Tonight, and in E! and Hollywood Reporter and the NYTimes social pages. The queers are the ones throwing rocks at the police.
It’s not entirely unlike the feminist sex wars of the 1980s, or the conflict in Black communities over how important it is to dress well and speak white when arguing for your rights.
And it’s not that there is nothing to the Gay/Lesbian approach. If you want to change laws, someone has to talk to legislators, and it is easier to do that if you both are part of the same country club and attend the same cocktail parties.
But there’s also this other thing about this strain of GL thought: it very often argues that sexual orientation shouldn’t be the basis for discrimination because the Gays & Lesbians just can’t help it. In other words, at least from the outside it seems to concede that fucking the people you fall in love (or lust) with can be wrong just because of the genders involved, but that we should mercifully suspend punishment as a result of extenuating circumstances.
The “I can’t help it” narrative that underpins this appeal, however, falls apart if gender gets complicated. So for the “I can’t help it” folks, there’s a need to reject bisexuality and to reject trans lovers. They don’t want complicated, because then their easy, “not my fault” narrative becomes a complicated, “maybe it’s my fault, but if you listen for a few hours you will understand how I’m the exception” argument. Frankly, not many heterosexist are going to sit around long enough for that conversation. Even if they did, whatever line you draw to justify your slightly-bisexual, kind-of-trans-inclusive sexuality is going to be really hard to paint as some biological inevitability. You like some dicks but not others? Some cunts but not others? Jesus, welcome to the club. Everyone has individuals they prefer, but that’s not some deep-seated, genetically-based sexual orientation over which you have no control.
So although not all people who strongly identify with the labels Gay or Lesbian are of this conservative group who reject trans people & bi/pan people (and usually poly people & leather folk), the people who reject trans people and bi/pan people are of course not going to label themselves as bisexual or queer.
So there are gays & lesbians that I’ll happily call LGBT folk or LGBTQIA folk or whatever is the relevant label that accurately describes the group being discussed, there are also these people that are definitely not LGBTQ folk because they’re not part of a larger LGBTQIA community. They voluntarily cut themselves off from anyone BTQIA, leaving a very specific subcommunity, with its own subculture, that is entirely GL.
Understood this way, the HRC was GL until the 2000s. (The first leather person they had on their board of directors was forced out for being too leather for respectability, when they had hired them in the first place to be a bridge tot he leather community. As a result, the first or second – can’t remember which – trans* person on their board quit in protest for the actions of other board members forcing out the leather community’s only representation.) The National Gay & Lesbian Task Force (later just the NGLTF) was the counter weight to the HRC at the national level, but ACT-UP and Queer Nation were the “I’m different & if you care that’s your problem” folks at the local level in the 80s. Lesbian Avengers took on that role in the 1990s while Queer Nation continued but ACT-UP died as HIV research and treatment finally became something the government took seriously under Clinton.
HRC is better now than it was, but they’re also the people who celebrate Caitlyn Jenner more than they fight to defund the cops. There are still people who want to be “normal”, and for those people dating & fucking you or me or Seth S or Elliot Page is dangerous to the life they want to create. We’re not normal. We’re either not trying to be normal or we just can’t be. And if they get too close to us, the stigma of that will rub off.
For the people desperate to be “I’m normal, I just happened to fall in love with a man,” the fear they have over losing their carefully crafted veneer of normalcy is going to be greater than any attraction they have to the queers and trans people and the NBs and the general riffraff & outcasts. Trying to date someone desperate to be normal when the pressure to be normal is killing you will only make things worse – for both you & the person you’re trying to date.
So Seth won’t have any success with those people who are so eager to declare themselves not queer, so eager to declare themselves normal, but gay or lesbian.
But not having success with those people is okay – or at least I think it is – because they wouldn’t be good for Seth anyway (or at least I don’t think they would be).
Those people who are gay or lesbian but rule out dating anyone trans, anyone NB, anyone complicated, because of their fears, well, they may not give a positive answer on a question regarding trans attractiveness, but who gives a fuck? They aren’t worth the time of day from queers as glorious as you & Seth & Elliot anyway.
@Crip Dyke:
The HRC?
@Surplus
The Human Rights Campaign, an LGBT rights group that is criticized for being overly moderate and for employing Charlotte Clymer.
It does not stand for Hillary Rodham Clinton.
@Crip Dyke
I understand what you meant now, so thank you. But one question: won’t that approach result in us never being accepted as members of society? Whether we like it or not, we live in this world and need to interact with it in order to get by. I don’t want to be constantly othered.
@Naglfar
We’re never going to be part of that society no matter what we do. The goal is to change society, not sell our souls for a reward that will be forever held out of our reach.
Or, more concisely, “fuck respectability politics”.
…
Who the hell is Charlotte Clymer?
@Surplus
A person who has some of the worst centrist/Liberal takes I’ve ever seen.
And demi/ ace people as well. Which has always been really strange to me because their just people who feel less or no sexual attraction? They aren’t trying to do anything to anyone, just live their life the way they want. Like I have seen the same people talk about how they don’t want to have sex with a trans/ nonbinary/ bi/ pan person and they feel like their pressure to, but then they will turn around and tell someone who is ace or demi that wants to be in a relationship that they have to have sex with their partner if their partner has sexual desire. they are doing something wrong if they don’t have sex with their partner and it blows my mine. cause like a week ago you posted a long rant about how you won’t want to be with a trans person and people should stop making you feel bad about it??? and then you want to turn around and tell ace people that they shit spouses because they don’t want to have sex??
Refusing to date people who think we are the living embodiment of cooties isn’t the same as refusing to interact with the world or participate in activism to change it. They threw rocks at Stonewall – do you think that was ultimately productive or counter-productive? I would argue that the “FuckYou!” attitude of the rioters has been, is, and will continue to be a huge source of inspiration for activism and change. I think their riots can thus not only be said to have avoided the problem of never being accepted, but it has actually furthered the cause of acceptance. The difference is that we’re demanding acceptance on our own terms.
Nor should you be, and I’ll fight for a world in which you are not. But there’s a difference between being different and being othered.
I don’t think the choices are limited to “be the same as the mainstream” and “be othered/marginalized by society”. I think we can create societies that embrace difference without engaging in othering, without marginalizing people based on those differences, in part because deeper reflection reveals that we’re all different from each other and being part of the beautiful people is at least as rare, and in that sense at least as different or weird, as being trans. We’re nearly 1% after all, more than 1% if you include the people who love us and have our backs, and the rich/powerful cocktail set is less than that.
Anyway, that’s my take.
@Surplus:
Yep. That.
@Dalillama
Yes. Emphasis on “that society” & not just “society”.
@Lainy
I’m sure that’s true, though I’m not as up on the experiences of demi / ace folks with the conservative Gay/Lesbian crowd.
@Seth S
I think that I can spot an abuser or manipulator; one of them would never get a second date with me. But like you, I have a history with sketchy people. The difference is that I went to domestic violence (DV) counseling for a couple of years. Before that, I called various DV hotlines several times. You don’t need to have been hit to use these services. You also don’t need to be a woman.
I don’t know where you live, but you can probably find some sort of DV services for free.
https://transequality.org/know-your-rights/survivors-violence
My information is from the USA. But you can Google DV counseling in your own country if you’re not from here.
Best of luck.
Oh I dunno; the Trump White House seems to be a very polite place. Everyone is going around saying “Pardon me.”
(Stolen from Dan Rather)
So there’s mentally no difference between a 16 yr old girl and a 30 yr old woman, except that you can brainwash – I mean “teach” – the 16 yr old. Umm it’s one or the other. These dudes know damn well there’s a difference and love how easy teens are to manipulate. And somewhere some poor girl is feeling special because a disgusting aging weenie told her she’s “so mature” (of course without adding that he thinks her brain is smaller than his and won’t grow any more). Gag.
I apologize for coming to the party late, so to speak.
And my statement may be a bit controversial, so I would like to say now that it’s not my intent to offend anyone.
Here goes:
While what these bastards are doing is undeniably creepy as fuck. Means, ends, rationale; all the way around, basically.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with the idea of a romantic relationship where the parties aren’t generational cohorts.
So long as all parties involved are consenting adults. And when I say adult, I mean ADULT. Not “reached the age of consent;” ADULT. As in they can legally drive, work, vote, smoke, and drink. Anyone younger than that when you can do all those things? More than a little gross.
And since the topic came up, could I ask a philosophical question in light of the explanation offered above:
Can a cishet man be queer in the modern sense of the word?
I’m already queer in the historical sense of the word, but I also meet the requirements offered in this comments thread (a bookish, intellectual, artistic guy in the rural South? Yeah, me and the society around me are not going to get on too well. I’ve basically been exiled since I was seven).
Justin Campbell,
I think most of us here would agree that it’s not inherently wrong to date someone outside of your age group. But there are a couple of caveats.
If you’re (general you, not you specifically) the older one, you should be aware of the power dynamics and act accordingly to ensure you’re not abusing that dynamic. This is particularly the case if the younger one is under 25 as their brain hasn’t even fully developed yet and they likely have little money and life experience.
If you’re an older person and you’re specifically pursuing much younger partners specifically because they are much younger, you’re a creep. Happening to meet and like someone of a different age is definitely different than specifically praying on young and naive people, which is what the MGTOW in the OP are doing (or claim to be doing).
Weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee –
I wholeheartedly agree.
I’m just a little anal about having concepts be argued as clearly as possible.
People look at me with confused expressions on their faces whenever I talk most of the time.
In physical space, barring a handful of exceptions for whom I thank God, I can’t assume any level of intelligence on the part of anyone I speak to; it’s just not there.
So I have to explain anything I could ever conceivably say in the most minute detail I could imagine.
And most of the time they still don’t get it.
Needless to say, I don’t talk much