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bad science incels misogyny transphobia

Incels agree: Trans men are “the stupidest people on earth” for giving up their female privilege

Incels, confused as always

Add “trans men” to the long and ever-growing list of things that incels just don’t understand.

In a discussion on the Incels.co forums, commenters suggest that “MTF tr*nnies” are “the stupidest people on earth” for giving up their allegedly vast female privilege to take up a life as an oppressed man. Women have it so easy, the incels agree, that it is almost inconceivable that anyone would voluntarily give up life as a woman.

Hah. It’s hilarious. Imagine being of infinite value by virtue of being a foid, and willingly reducing your value to male value. And not just ya male, but a 1st percentile male. Literally the most non-dimorphic male possible. 5’4”, framecel, wide hips, small skull, gracile boned, feminine voice, NO DICK male. FTM foids are retarded. What kind of quality of life do they expect?

MTF is actually legit ngl. Go from being whatever SMV male to being infinitely valueable because people think you’re a girl. I wonder what accounts passing MTF trannies would give of how they were treated by people before and after transitioning.

Others second this, er, analysis.

“Many of them stop after some time and detrans because they realize living as a man is much harder,” writes Lebensmüder.

Just fucking lol. Most foids wouldn’t survive a day in a man’s shoes without suffering enormous damage to their mental wellbeing.

“It’s good because JFL at those who think being a man is easy,” adds OldIncel. “Serves them right.”

“Imagine being born into tutorial mode and throwing it all away,” Of Manlets and Men scoffs.

“Dumb dirty toilets thinking they can become chad by taking some hormones,” snorts Radishman.

It goes without saying that this isn’t how any of this works. And that incels, while demanding empathy from the rest of us, are themselves the least empathetic people in the world.

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Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

Is this Manosphere Transphobia Week or something? This is the second time in a week that misogynists have spewed out garbage takes about trans people.

commenters suggest that “MTF tr*nnies” are “the stupidest people on earth” for giving up their allegedly vast female privilege to take up a life as an oppressed man.

“MTF” means trans women. Does he mean FTM?

Note: I don’t like either of these terms much, but I just noticed this error.

Literally the most non-dimorphic male possible

Does he know that testosterone is a thing? And that some cis men are short with broad hips? I’m not a cis man but I am AMAB and I have naturally wide hips and am short (I’m about 5’6″ or 168cm).

NO DICK male

And yet trans men probably have more sex than incels.

Being infinitely valuable because people think you’re a girl

How do I get to be infinitely valuable? I don’t think I’m infinitely valuable right now.

“Many of them stop after some time and detrans because they realize living as a man is much harder,”

Have we found the point of incel/TERF convergence? To be fair I’m surprised it took this long.

“Dumb dirty toilets thinking they can become chad by taking some hormones,”

This just gave me the mental image of someone dumping testosterone pills down a toilet and getting angry that it isn’t becoming a big muscular dude. At least that mental image is less transphobic and misogynistic than the intended meaning.

Prith k'Dar
Prith k'Dar
1 month ago

Dumb, dirty toilets with infinite value!

.45
.45
1 month ago

Incels, Red Pillers, etc are basically conspiracy theorists of the highest caliber. A central part of their beliefs is that a massive portion of society, particularly those of the more educated persuasion, are lying through their teeth because, well, reasons. Only those of the enlightened true faith are blessed to know the truth. This of course makes them better than the sheeple.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
1 month ago

Wacky thought. Maybe trans men transition because they’re men. Not because it makes life easy. Glad I could help.

gijoel
gijoel
1 month ago

@Naglfar It’s always Manosphere transphobia week.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@gijoel
Fair enough, we’re just seeing more examples of it here than usual.

CarrieV
CarrieV
1 month ago

This is all pretty funny since transguys have often spoken of the NEW feelings of privilege after having begun their lives “out” as men. If there are any incels reading here, I’m talking about born-as-female people becoming [trans] men and living their lives as men live their lives.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesstjamesvi/male-privilege-from-a-trans-guyas-perspective-1mcmp#.xfENQJ0Q5l

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/06/male-privilege-female-top-surgery-workplace

happy cat
happy cat
1 month ago

@CarrieV Indeed. I remember this article, too. https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/more-male-privilege-trans-man/

MV96
MV96
1 month ago

Aren’t almost all detransitioners trans women?
Who detransition because of pressure from outside factors(financial and societal)?
And most of who retransition later anyway?
Why are AFAB detransitioners so “popular”?

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

If destransitioner were a common phenomen, the transphobe would have a ton of their belief validated. So they insist that they actually exists. Simple as that.

If something doesn’t exist but would sure be super convenient for bigots, you can bet they will loudly insist on how much of a scourge to mankind they are. See also : mexican joyriding into Texas to loot and rape ; trans toilet rapers ; women abusing the divorce system, among phenomen that actually are between non existing and very rare but are loudly used as talking points.

MV96
MV96
1 month ago

But why do they focus so much on AFAB detransitioners, them being even rarer?

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

But why do they focus so much on AFAB detransitioners, them being even rarer?

Their whole point (such as it is) is that being a man is hard and women have it easy, so AFAB detransitioners prove their point.

They’ll not care overmuch about trans* women – except the core of them that despise all forms of “cope.” Which they consider transitioning to a woman to be.

Last edited 1 month ago by Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

I remember reading (but don’t actually know, since I’m a cis looking at this from outside) that since our society is more accepting of “manly” women than of trans men, it can be easier in some respects for a trans man to just identify as a butch woman – of course, not actually easier because of dysphoria and so on, just easier in terms of acceptance. Again, I don’t really know much about it (and would appreciate corrections), but it seems reasonable simply because of how widespread transphobia is – and in that case, I can imagine there would also be some “detrasitions” for a similar reason.
This is, of course, assuming the claim is even true to begin with, which I kinda doubt.

Last edited 1 month ago by Penny Psmith
Lumipuna
Lumipuna
1 month ago

Re “detrans”

And most of who retransition later anyway?

I believe this is called “decistance”.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@MV96

Who detransition because of pressure from outside factors(financial and societal)?
And most of who retransition later anyway?

Yes and yes. Less than 2% of trans people detransition and of those who do, more than 50% will detransition later and less than 1% claim it’s because they were actually cis all along.

Idk if there are more trans women or trans men detransitioning, it’s hard to find accurate statistics.

Why are AFAB detransitioners so “popular”?

Transphobes are obsessed with them because that sits better with their “theories.” They think that trans women are evil predatory men, so the fact that some detransition doesn’t mesh with that claim. At the same time, they think that trans men are poor misguided young butch lesbians, so by focusing on the (very small) number of detransitioning AFAB people because that supports the idea that they’re misguided by some sinister agenda. Of course, this sucks for actual detransitioners because transphobes don’t help them. They pretend to, but don’t actually help them at all.

@Ohlmann

So they insist that they actually exists. Simple as that.

To be fair, detransitioners do exist, they’re just not nearly as common as transphobes claim. What doesn’t exist is the wave of detransitioners and lawsuits that they like to threaten is coming.

@Lumipuna
Desistance usually means no longer identifying as trans, i.e. identifying as ones assigned gender at birth. Detransition is the social, medical, and legal processes associated with this. They’re separate so some people might desist before transitioning and therefore not detransition, while others might detransition but not desist in their identity.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Sheila Crosby
Sheila Crosby
1 month ago

I beleive TERFS inflate the number of people desisting by changing the definition halfway through. So if worried parents send their child to a spcialist for a chat and it’s decided that she’s a tomboy not a trans boy, they count that as desistance and bizarely use it as proof that tomboys are being pushed into transitioning. Because they never transitioned.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
1 month ago

Naglfar wrote:

Desistance usually means no longer identifying as trans, i.e. identifying as ones assigned gender at birth. Detransition is the social, medical, and legal processes associated with this. They’re separate so some people might desist before transitioning and therefore not detransition, while others might detransition but not desist in their identity.

I made a random silly pun, but this is actually interesting detail. Thanks for helping us understand these distinctions.

Last edited 1 month ago by Lumipuna
Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Sheila Crosby
There definitely is some degree of that happening. One of their more prominent figures, Charlie Evans, claims to be a detransitioner but never medically or socially transitioned and appears to have never even told her friends that she identified as trans. She has dropped off the radar lately after her last grift, where she claimed to be collecting funds for a detransitioner advocacy network, then, like most bigoted grifters, took the money for herself.

@Lumipuna
Oh, I didn’t notice the pun. Sorry, I’m tired.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@Nagflar : I think the point stay the same regardless of whether it litteraly does not exist or is extremely uncommon. The transphobe did not make any research on the topic anyway, and if you use a big enough data set you can find exceptional cases in pretty much any situation.

I am not sure of that figure, but I have heard of about 200 trans per million human. If 2% detransition, that’s for the US roughly ~1200 detransitioned individual. It’s too small a sample to make rigorous statistics on them ; the error margin mean it would be impossible to say whether AMAB or AFAB are more likely to.

I would be more interested to know how many people have been intimidated out of coming out as trans. My speculation is that there’s a lot more people in that category than trans themselves.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Ohlmann

I would be more interested to know how many people have been intimidated out of coming out as trans. My speculation is that there’s a lot more people in that category than trans themselves.

This is probably the case, given that countries with better acceptance and support for trans people have a higher percentage of the population that is trans. I would think that as society becomes more accepting more and more people will feel safe enough to come out. Same goes for other LGBTQ+ groups.

Of course, increased acceptance has meant that more people, including children, have been accessing transition resources, so TERFs have been able to spin that to claim that being trans is a social contagion or fad among the youth.

As for number of trans people, it’s hard to know but the number I’ve seen most often is that trans people are about 0.6% of the general population according to US surveys. The real number is likely much higher and since young people are more likely to be open about it, I expect that over the next few decades this number will increase.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
1 month ago

being infinitely valuable because people think you’re a girl

dumb dirty toilets

🤔

Pretty rich for these people to argue that women play life in tutorial mode while continually comparing them to lower life forms and waste disposal objects, and also straight up advocating for violence, rape, subjugation, and removal of rights from women. Gee, that sure sounds like Easy Street. Sign me up!

Women can’t be both “infinitely valuable” and “foids”. Much the same way that Jews can’t be both weak and secretly running the world, and immigrants can’t be both genetically inferior but also taking over all the wimmenz and jobz and outbreeding whites. It’s always whichever version best allows them to play victim in the moment. If they’re feeling sexually inadequate, the enemy is all-powerful. If they’re feeling entitled, the enemy is inferior.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Buttercup
And it is that kind of doublethink which is at the core of fascism. By making the enemy both all-powerful (or “infinitely valuable”) and weak (or a “dumb dirty toilet”) one can easily gin up anger against them while simultaneously propping up the audience.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
1 month ago

@Naglfar – Yeah, that zero-sum thinking is what fuels bigots and misogynists. When a group that they think is beneath them gets even the slightest crumb of respect or attention or compensation, they start screaming about the unfairness of it all.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Buttercup

When a group that they think is beneath them gets even the slightest crumb of respect or attention or compensation, they start screaming about the unfairness of it all.

There’s a saying that I’ve heard ascribed to a lot of people, mostly to Abraham Lincoln, about how conservatives will only think things are fair and that they have free speech if everyone agrees with them. It isn’t enough for people to let them have their opinions and/or be indifferent, everyone has to agree or they think their rights are being violated. Anyone else getting respect is a violation of their exclusivity and they can’t tolerate it.

In a more contemporary context, this is why I have conservative relatives that insist I have to be “fair” and say something good about Trump. They think that I’m violating their rights by refusing to praise their Dear Leader.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

One thing I only recently realized is how much of entertainment is based on that idea of a all-powerful ennemy that is somehow extremely easy to defeat. That’s basically the recipe of most James Bond movies, of the original trilogy of Star Wars, of a lot of video games, and it’s not even that far from the plot of the Lord of the Ring.

I am wary of saying that people are influenced by that tropes, but it might help an existing blind spot to grow.

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
1 month ago

@Ohlman: An enemy that is simultaneously allpowerful and weak is a pretty key ingredient in fashy ‘thinking’. But yeah, it’s a weird trope.

Not surprised that these incel dingdongs have such an opinion on trans men. Idiots.

an autistic giraffe
an autistic giraffe
1 month ago

@Naglfar

In a more contemporary context, this is why I have conservative relatives that insist I have to be “fair” and say something good about Trump. They think that I’m violating their rights by refusing to praise their Dear Leader.

“Hmm I’ll have to think on that for a minute. Say what to you like the most about Obama, Hillary and Biden?”

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@an autistic giraffe

“Hmm I’ll have to think on that for a minute. Say what to you like the most about Obama, Hillary and Biden?”

I’ve asked them that about Obama. They usually either ignore or say something about how they like “some things” about his presidency but refuse to say exactly what. As is expected, of course.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

Totally O/T, but this happened. TL;DR is that far right hosting service Epik, best known for hosting a large number white nationalist sites including the Proud Boys, formerly 8chan, and IIRC hosts incels.co, has been blocked from using PayPal. They are now having a meltdown about “anti-conservative bias” and something to do with Hunter Biden.

Angiportus Librarysaver
Angiportus Librarysaver
1 month ago

No less an author than Le Guin brought me up short a few decades back when in her Earthsea books mentioned a local belief that women’s magic was both wicked and weak. It seemed to me that if something was truly wicked it wouldn’t be ineffectual, and vice versa. It is just like how people who complain about an unfair or otherwise harmful system find their objections treated as trivial, but the rules imposed on them, holding up the system, are sacrosanct and not to be questioned, no matter how stupid they actually are. Doublethink.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@Angiportus Librarysaver : I am not sure to follow your reasoning.

My first problem is that there is *plenty* of wicked but ineffectual systems. The Nazis are a prime example of an absolutely wicked state that was hugely inefficient and impotent. And not just because they picked a fight with the USSR, their internal organization was extremely inefficient.

In fact, the theory that something wicked have to be effectual or vice versa is often used to justify wicked acts. Like sinking migrant ships or automatic sentence for repeated offender, both who are as wicked as they are ineffectual in practice, but sold as “pragmatic, you have to do what you must”.

I don’t get the link with the second part either, but I do agree that the fetishism on something being good because it’s either ancient (or new for that matter) is rather strange and problematic.

Amtep
Amtep
1 month ago

Something good Trump has done: he pulled out of the TPP treaty, which would have been another power grab for multinational corporations. This was a campain promise he actually kept.

Something good about Trump as a person: umm… well, by embodying the seven cardinal sins (pride, anger, greed, laziness, lust, envy, and gluttony) he’s living proof that the antichrist really will deceive the Rapture-believing evangelicals. I suppose that’s of some value.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Amtep

Something good about Trump as a person: umm… well, by embodying the seven cardinal sins (pride, anger, greed, laziness, lust, envy, and gluttony) he’s living proof that the antichrist really will deceive the Rapture-believing evangelicals. I suppose that’s of some value.

On that note…
https://www.benjaminlcorey.com/could-american-evangelicals-spot-the-antichrist-heres-the-biblical-predictions/
TL;DR is that Trump basically fits every description of the antichrist. I’m Jewish and therefore don’t believe in the antichrist, but the evidence is pretty damning (pun intended).

Mogwitch
Mogwitch
1 month ago

I just wanted to share this article about some actual men‘s rights activists, doing some actual stuff to help men: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/oct/25/no-more-mr-muscle-the-activists-raising-body-confidence-for-men?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Isn’t it wonderful what how when the reaction to feminist achievements is to learn from them?

nobody
nobody
1 month ago

@Ohlmann

Which LOTR did you read where Sauron was easy to defeat? He was a corrupt maia with 9 lives making a magical nuisance of himself since the Second Age. Even the films kept Gandalf’s line about them only having a fool’s hope.

Perhaps you are confusing the “simple” mechanism of destroying the ring to destroy Sauron with the not at all simple execution of getting into Mordor undetected AND uncorrupted to do it.

@Naglfar

. At the same time, they think that trans men are poor misguided young butch lesbians,

Also too, some are attracted to men, which is not the definition of lesbian…

Last edited 1 month ago by nobody
Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@Nobody : but if you read the trilogy and just that, Sauron is an all powerful enemy, that nonetheless is killed and his threat made entirely impotent by a very simple act of heroism. A big part of the Silmarillon is here to explain why he was already more or less on his last legs too. (it’s probably also why Tolkien added a chapter about Saruman in the Shire)

Let’s translate that into WW2 : it would have been the Allies losing the initial blitz, Paris and London being under siege, then poof a special ops kill hitler and all the tanks suddenly vanish, Nazis are forever defeated.

Not co-incidentally, the moviemakers decided to make the fall of Sauron that much more brutal, both by showing his fortress litteraly falling apart the instant he die, and by omitting the Shire retaking. Tolkien tried to take precaution against that pitfall, but it’s more mitigating a structural problem than anything.

Also, for all “nearly impossible” the task of Frodo was, it sure is a lot less effort than solving any country-level problem. It don’t even look that much harder in my opinion.