Transphobe activists like to flip words around to serve their peculiar political purposes. Unwilling to call trans women trans women, they invert the gender and label them “Trans-Identified males,” which (according to the twisted transphobe logic) makes everyone who supports trans women into “Men’s Rights Activists.”
There are a lot of things wrong with this particular accusation against trans rights supporters, one of the most obvious flaws being that most real Men’s Rights activists are not exactly supportive of trans rights.
Consider, for example, what just happened on the Men’s Rights subreddit yesterday when one of the rare trans-friendly MRAs tried to convince his fellow MRAs that trans people “are our most valuable allies.”
BrickDaddyShark wrote:
I believe that trans people are our most valuable allies for a few reasons; they are mainstream, they have experience from both sides, and there is even a facet of feminism dedicated to hating them. In general, they have been the most influential group in the progress that has been made for mens rights.
I have no idea what he’s talking about here, but let’s let him continue:
I think that every one of us should include some trans rights into our book of mens rights issues. A few easy ones are that because of the discrimination against men in mental and physical health, MtF people have a harder time getting support from family members and approval from doctors than FtM. FtM on the other hand are focused on far less after transitioning because of their status as men. In conclusion, take care of our trans allies.
Trans Rights are Mens Rights are Human Rights.
BrickDaddyShark’s proposal went over like the proverbial lead balloon, getting voted down to zero and inspiring a host of hostile comments.
“Brother, lay off the crack,” wrote someone called playingpoodles.
“Trans” already have all the rights everybody else has, and if they’re game to cut off their male genitalia and present as a woman they can access a bunch of extra rights reserved for women only.
Your suggestions emerge from a place called ‘fantasyland far from reality’. The only thing interesting about the trans movement, and the feminist response to it, is how little the feminists cared about men having their genitals surgically removed – but now very recently once disturbed women have jumped on the trans bandwagon, and want to juice up on steroids and present as men, feminists are cautious about it and worried for THESE GIRLS. They care, now, because they genuinely care about women, and don’t want them to wreck their bodies juicing up supra-physiological levels of male hormones – just tells me men don’t matter to them, but women do, which we all already knew.
I’m pretty sure Mr. Poodles’ argument here also comes from a place called fantasyland.
“In what way are they allies?” demands tenchineuro.
While it’s true that the trans lobby is more powerful than feminism today, the trans movement’s major issues seem to be things like pronoun issues, with claims that using the wrong pronouns is literally killing trans people. And they also want tampon dispensers in men’s bathrooms.
But AFAIK they have taken no notice of men’s rights issues. Perhaps it’s another minority issue, my understanding is that most trans folk are M2F and that there are few F2M.
Dude, your “understanding” isn’t worthy of that word.
“First off, there are less than what, one percent of them?” complained Azael.
Second off, your average person doesn’t give a shit about them because they’re obnoxious children who spend their time endlessly screaming about how they need to be treated more special than everyone else. What societal influence they have comes from the support of the woke crowd who are using them as their current group of victimized dancing monkeys to parade around and feel sorry for. Let the feminists who aren’t TERFS have them.
I’ll agree with that last sentence, if nothing else. MRAs are terrible people and thus terrible allies. But BrickDaddyShark, unlike his MRA pals, does seen to have good intentions, at least, despite his obvious ignorance; if he wants to be a genuine ally to trans people, he should stop hanging out on the Men’s Rights subreddit and take some time to actually learn a bit about the people he wants to ally with. If he were able to to this, I suspect he’d get a much warmer reception from trans folks than he’s getting from his ostensible Men’s Rights allies.
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@naglfar
Yeah, but being annoying isn’t the cause enough to get band, at least not the kind of annoying like the 12 year old was. Acid at least isn’t spamming the comment sections telling us that he still isn’t toilet trained yet. Acid’s just stupidly dense the way a lot of 16 year olds are.
I’ve been debating a lot about messaging my rapist new wife with a fake account. I’ve been weighing in on not doing it because A. she’s 17 and pregnant with his kid, whatever I could tell her she’s not ready to hear it. and B. I know he’s probably doing the same thing to her that he did to me and is monitoring all of her cell phone usage and social media account. Before we met kiddo Acid here, I probably would have gone ahead and did it when I had found out but, I’m reminded of how under developed mid teenagers brains are, especially when they think their right.
Probably a good thing anyways for now. Saves me triggering that could cause all sorts of problem and saves a pregnant woman a possible beating.
@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
When MRA sends their trolls, they’re not sending their best….
Oh, look who didn’t stick the flounce. Surprise, surprise.
@Naglfar:
Usually, David furnishes evidence that the views of the MRAs and other right wingers he quotes are representative of the groups in question, in the form of large like or upvote counts, but oddly that doesn’t seem to have occurred in the instant case. Unfortunate, since large upvote counts at Reddit on an odious post are an airtight defense against a charge of nutpicking.
@Elaine:
What about contacting her parents? Perhaps they can intervene.
And … when would she be ready? Now, still below the age of minority, she’s much more likely to be able to access parental support or state support of some sort to leave. In another year it might be much more difficult, and he’ll have had another year to groom and gaslight her.
@surplus.
In my state she would have needed parental permission to get married in the first place, meaning the know him and considering the town I am from its very likely they made her agree to marry him after they found out they were having sex or she became pregnant. And I meant by not being ready that she is not ready to come to turns with the abuse. I certainly lived in denial of it for a while. I was convinced when he berated me it was my fault for not making him happy and when he would hit me that was also my fault for not obeying. I believe ever word he told me about being stupid and ugly and lucky I had him to love me because no one else will. It takes a while to comes to term to find that the man you fell in love with is not actually real and your just left with a monster. I fell in love with a boy who was sweet and charming and funny. Who had good manners and carried my bag to class for me. As that boy slowly chipped away to show how abusive and manipulative he actually was I was lost trying to find the boy I had originally fell in love with. It didn’t help that he was my first love as well. I could have very easily been the girl he has under his thumb now if I wasn’t his first victim. Being the first means he made a lot of mistakes so I was better at getting away from him. He’s better at picking more vulnerable, less supported targets now and is smarter about getting him trapped to him. Any thing I try to do will not work because I know how he brainwashes and how disconnecting from her own reality she will become. Something will have to jar her out of it like mine did.
When I think about it to much I start to blame myself for not ending him to begin with. But unfortunately now that this girl is under that demons spell she’ll have to be the one that breaks herself free. She will have to be the one to figure out she’s not as dependent on him as she thinks. That’s going to be hard because being without him will feel like dying first because most of her personality will be made into being the perfect woman for him. Without him she won’t know who she is and that can be more terrifying than a beating. I’ve been in her shoes, hell I made the shoes that she is currently standing in and nothing I can do now is going to help her.
@Elaine The Witch
Oh, it’s not? The places I heard it from, it was. Sorry.
Still don’t like it.
Thank you!
“The Child.” That sounds like a horror movie title, LOL. “‘The Child,’ coming to theatres February 2022.”
Just to clear up, but your polygamous? If you are, I don’t have a problem with it, but it’s just to clear up.
Indeed.
I wouldn’t know. I used to date, and I actually had a couple boyfriends (ever since I was young), but, ever since I transitioned to male, suddenly people don’t really want to date me anymore. Since today, I’m 17, that makes for an interesting thing. I started to look like a guy between the ages of 14 and 15, so that I have had 2 or 3 years in which people are no longer interested in me, I find to be interesting.
However, some people want to have s.ex with me. A large amount, actually. Of a multitude of ages. I find it to be gross, and that I don’t want people to want me just for my body or looks or whatever.
@Naglfar
Thank you.
It’s not “trolling” if you literally just say what you think.
That you live in an echo chamber?
Sure. I mean, if you can do it, then y’all will certainly be getting more than me aboard y’alls ship.
True. What did you think I meant when I said that “the vast majority of trans people are NOT feminists”?
A large chunk of trans women, and a similar chunk of trans men, that I have met have been MRAs. perhaps around 40 to 60%?
Sorry, let me restate. Sometimes I can be confusing.
What I meant was, “For everyone I agree with, there are MRAs, nonMRAs (pro-trans), and nonMRAs (anti-trans). I merely agree with some, or most, of their statements, depending on who they are. Almost every MRA has supported me, as I have already stated. However, even with the anti-trans people that I semi-agree with on certain topics, none of them have accepted me. If it was true that the vast majority of MRAs were only accepting me because I agreed with them, then why do people I (semi) agree with refuse to accept me?”
If that’s still confusing, please let me know.
When I say “Holier than thou,” I mean that you literally act like MRAs are all the same, lesser beings, below you, all because you believe that we act a certain way. Reminded me of how many religious people (though not all, of course) treat atheists.
I’ll give you the link. And don’t worry, it’s certainly going to be bigger than a “small sample.”
Yes, it is true that heard of vs met are different things. However, listening to her videos, even just one or two, is a good place to start with, when trying to understand her.
She has. It was in one of her men and domestic abuse videos. I’d have to find it again, but I can.
That was just off the top of my head, in the US and (I believe) Canada. If you can patiently wait for my list of LGBT MRAs, it will come soon. Some of them will be trans. Many will not. Mainly because trans people are a very small proportion.
There, a good number. Thank you.
Now, I haven’t met that much, but that’s mainly because I haven’t met that many trans people in general. I know that I’ve met less than a hundred, but probably around several tens.
I’m asking for proof that MRAs and trans people aren’t allies, and that we’re somehow barred.
@Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
You gonna swat me?
@Elaine The Witch
You gonna join ’em?
@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
Apparently, I’m a time machine?
@GSS ex-noob
“Other basement-dwellers.” Sorry, don’t live in the basement. my mom sleeps down there, but that’s mainly because our house is small, so there’s not enough room up stairs.
And yes, she does know. I even told her about some of y’alls behavior.
And guess what? She’s a feminist, but she identifies as a pro-MRA, and supports the Men’s Rights Movement. She also got me started in Men’s Rights without even meaning too, and supports me being an MRA. She didn’t know what MGTOW was, so I told her Men Going Their Own Way, and I’m still deciding if I’m MGTOW or not. The good kind of MGTOW, not the misogynistic kind.
I’m leaning not MGTOW, but it could change.
And “ex-noob”? That’s a weird name, to be honest.
@Policy of Madness
Alright. I can do that.
So far, I can ascertain that there are several major branches, and all of them are as valid as the others. Some are just more hateful than others. Some are better than others.
Here are some branches as examples:
Choice feminism – Feminism that believes that women can chose whatever to empower themselves, as long as it isn’t hatred.
Intersectional feminism – Feminism that believes that oppression and privilege intersects, and isn’t simply just one thing. Intersectional feminists also tend to be pro-trans, pro-gay, etc.
Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism – Feminism that excludes trans people and men, often using misandry to empower their transphobic arguments, such as, “Trans women are just perverted men,” which is both misandristic (it is based off of “men = perverted” argument) and transmisogynistic (it is attacking trans women specifically). They tend to be lesbians or political lesbians, though not always.
Nazi feminism – Feminists who identify as Nazis, though I don’t really know what they do specifically.
Pro-male feminism – Feminists who are pro-male, and tend to believe that feminism also includes men.
Anti-male feminism – Feminists who are anti-male, and sometimes believe that feminism includes men, but for different reasons.
Black feminism – Feminism that focuses on black women and gives them a voice. Controversial to some.
White feminism – Feminism that focuses on white women and gives them a voice. Controversial to some, more than black feminism.
Trans feminism – Feminism that focuses on trans women and gives them a voice. Not really found to be controversial, but many trans feminists will use it to further the “cause of women.”
Pro-MRA feminism – Feminists who are pro-MRA, work with MRAs, or leave MRAs alone. Not that common, but does happen. I know several.
Anti-MRA feminism – Feminists who are anti-MRA, refuse to work with any MRAs, and generally attack MRAs. More common than pro-MRA feminists. Often are anti-MRA because they are misandristic, though not always. Some believe that MRAs are against equality, and that’s why they are anti-MRA.
Christian feminism – Feminism from a Christian viewpoint. Often is more traditional.
Atheist feminism – Feminism from an atheist viewpoint. Often believes that religion is the root of women’s problems/issues, and is often nontraditional.
Muslim feminism – Feminism from a Muslim viewpoint.
That’s all I can remember right now, off the top of my head.
Also, I became 17 today.
@Naglfar
I read plenty of things by feminists. The majority of things I read are by feminists.
Sure.
Well, my first thought is that patriarchy isn’t real, but I’ll pretend it’s real, just for a second. Just as a hypothetical. It’s not just men who hold back men’s emotions. It’s also women. Society as a whole. If a patriarchy was really real, though, wouldn’t men’s emotions, not women’s be valued more, and encouraged more?
Just a clarification, but what do you mean? I can answer after.
No, I don’t know about it.
@Elaine The Witch
Wow, you guys got his age right this time!
And how am I being a hypocrite? No, I’m actually curious.
@Naglfar
I never actually left. I was tired of that argument.
@Elaine The Witch
Um…thanks?
No thanks?
Perhaps you should. Might help someone.
Why you blaming me for your choice?
Do it or don’t.
@Surplus to Requirements
I never said I was leaving the site. I was just tired of that argument.
Yeah, well, I haven’t really seen evidence so far.
Parents might help. Might not.
@Elaine The Witch
That’s sad. Hopefully, it gets better.
@acid
Happy birthday kid.
@acid
I know it may not seem like it, but one day you will find someone who will look at you and loves you for who you are as a person and not just what your body looks like. It is much harder to find love when you are not cis, and there are a lot of people that fetishizes trans bodies (thank some good ol porn for that one), But I promise you that there will be some guy out there who will look at you and see all the wonderful things that make you a persons. It’s not the same thing but when I was your age there was a lot of guys that wanted to sleep with me too. It made me so uncomfortable that I would dress as unsexy as I could. In the most shapeless, baggy things that I could. A lot of boys and men sexualized my body because of my hour glass shape, and my big breast. People are going to sexualize yours for a different reasons since your trans and I am not. It might get to you and make you feel lesser but I just want you to remember that you are so much more then just that.
I never thought I would have met someone like my husband. He came into my life suddenly and unexpected. He has improved it ever day that he is in it. He gives me a love that I use to think that I wasn’t worthy for. One day you will be out of high school and you will find yours as well. In the mean time don’t settle. If someone can’t love you for the gay trans boy you are and they just want to pretend their dating a tomboy girl or something, then they aren’t the one and they aren’t worth your time.
@Elaine The Witch
Thanks.
@Elaine The Witch
Thanks.
But it’s not just boys and men. It’s also girls and women.
I’m just lucky that nobody’s tried to force me to have s.ex yet, I guess.
That’s good.
Also, I don’t like to date people who see me as a girl. Some people still see me as a girl, and that’s the only way I’m ever asked out now.
And the only reason I don’t ask anyone out is that I’m terrified. Mainly, just the fear of talking to other people, like that.
@acid
I used to be scared at talking to people as well. The first time I asked a girl out I almost vomited because I was so nervous. You are in the caterpillar stage kid. I promise you if you just take everything one day at a time, from school work, to transitioning, to finding love and a job that it will all one day just fall into place. You can’t let the big picture of everything discourage you.
@Acid
Eh, more that I don’t waste my time bothering other people.
I’m very suspicious about this, either we exist in very different communities or you haven’t met many.
Because they are transphobic or because they don’t agree all the way?
Not sure where I did that. That said, you may wish to turn your projector off.
You are still asking me to prove a negative.
Let me guess: she’s a fan of Christina Hoff Sommers.
I assume we can find these among the flying pigs.
I don’t think that’s a thing, every Nazi I’ve known has been antifeminist.
This isn’t a thing.
Then when did you ask on the other thread why you should read any? These statements are kind of at odds.
Uh, no. That’s kind of the point of the statement. Patriarchal standards of toxic masculinity necessitate that for a man to be viewed as a man, he must only show emotions like rage and anger. Otherwise he is derided as weak and/or feminine.
Remember that shit like it were yesterday. It weren’t fun at all – seriously felt like fainting the first few times I asked a girl out. You’re not alone there. Which is kinda cold comfort since it doesn’t actually help any, but at least you know it’s normal enough.
Will give you one bit of advice. Men can say no too, OK?
@Acid
None of which you named. I am beginning to think you’re not the scholar on this topic that you think you are!
Hint: there are three major branches, and two highly influential minor branches, with a variety of other minor branches. Seriously, if you were to just google “branches of feminism” you’d have more information than you do right now.
The term “choice feminism” is derogatory. Nobody runs around claiming to be a choice feminist. It’s not actually called that by people who espouse it.
Hey Einstein: what makes a TERF different from a trans-inclusionary radical feminist? What is the key to TERF that makes it trans-exclusionary, and which all other trans-exclusionary (non-radical) feminists also claim to be fact?
Not actually a thing. Fascists believe that women belong in the kitchen, pregnant, making their menfolk a sandwich. That’s not feminism.
Neither of these is really a thing. MRAs believe they are a thing, but they aren’t. They certainly aren’t “branches of feminism.”
If you knew even a third of what you think you knew, you’d know that the actual term for this is Womanism.
Your run-of-the-mill feminism is white supremacist, just like your run-of-the-mill everything else, so this is redundant and not really a term and definitely not a “branch” of feminism.
You left out a word here. What could it possibly be? This is also not a branch of feminism by any means, it’s a thread within the larger feminist universe.
Also known as “not feminists.”
Not a thing. Certainly not a “branch” of feminism.
You got really close with these three, in that there are genuinely threads of feminism that have religion or lack thereof as a focus. But they are not “branches” of feminism, because they aren’t large or influential enough to warrant that.
So far you’re doing really poorly. You haven’t named a single major or minor branch of feminism, let alone had something insightful to say about it. I expected better. I am disappoint, son.
@PoM
To be fair, I have heard white feminism used as a term to describe feminist individuals or groups that are insufficiently inclusive towards women of color and their experiences (for instance, this is one of the criticisms leveled at the Women’s March, in addition to being trans exclusionary). That said, it’s only really used as a criticism and AFAIK no one self identifies as a white feminist, so it’s not really a branch.
Transfeminism is a word to describe a line of thought within feminism, but I wouldn’t call it a branch.
Is it not possible to believe in human rights as a whole? Trans people have shit reaaaaaally rough these days, especially where I live. They also, as I wrote in that post, have done some of the most influential mens rights work of any group. Where I live, a lobbying group mainly for transgender people created the first mens domestic shelter. Trans men in my city had nowhere to go and we all know that domestic issues happen for trans people at a higher rate. This introduced the problem to the mainstream, and has lead to a fairly healthy discussion on mens rights in my area.
I feel that calling me naive was misguided. At the time of writing, I knew that the community was toxic and transphobic, but sadly they are all men have due to most peoples preprogrammed responses to us. I wanted to change that, and as the community has grown they actually have come around. The mens rights sub reddit regularly downvotes obviously hatefilled stuff in favor of more mens issues or progress. (They still got some kinks to work out, but you can’t change people by hating them. Watch this ted talk on that if you want https://youtu.be/ORp3q1Oaezw)
@Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
With that last sentence, did you just assume I don’t accept consent?
That kind of actually hurts, considering I’ve been called a rapist and rape apologist for saying that I’ve been sexually assaulted as a guy to a male feminist.
But whatever.
@BrickDaddyShark
BrickDaddyShark, it’s you! Also you are correct, and I’m glad to learn about the thing about the trans group. Are you talking about Forge-Forward? Also, I’m really glad you came on here. I’m a trans MRA myself (as you were talking about trans people and Men’s Rights), and I’m so glad to see you stand your ground. Keep up the good work, Chief.