It’s depressing to think that some Men Going Their Own Way have children. It must be awful for their daughters to have to deal with such floridly misogynistic dads, and the situation isn’t that much better for the sons who have to endure hateful and unhelpful “red pill” prothletizing during their formative years.
On the MGTOW subreddit today, some of the regulars are discussing the best ways to “red pill” one commenter’s 14-year-old son.
Fphilippe45 wrote:
I know I’ve already gave him a few red pills like : “woman does not love a man like a man loves a woman”, or “the most important thing in life is your freedom, your health and relatives”…
I don’t want to tell him to GYOW abruptly, but I definitively want him to understand his self-worth and to not worship pussies.
Any idea of the few red pills I can already give him at 14 ?
Commenters fell all over themselves responding with their suggestions, the most enthusiastic propagandist-by-proxy being a fellow called donersbruv2, who spewed out more than 600 words on the topic in the form of an 11-point list, with suggestions ranging from “Never marry” to “If you remove the vagina from the equation, women are terribly boring creatures” and “Women virtue-signal to be able to capitalize on their hypergamous nature.”
Because there is apparently nothing more appealing to 14-year-old boys than an earful of MGTOW jargon.
“Women are always trying to find a better suitor, be it higher status, more money, better looks, etc. due to her hypergamous nature,” donersbruv2 posited.
She’s essentially always talking to, meeting, and looking for a new guy behind her bf/husbands back. Only once she’s found a better suitor and solidified the relationship (with lots of sex) will she tell her bf/husband she “wants to take some time off” or something similar. As if this isn’t bad enough, she could possibly come crawling back later. Yuck!
Never mind that men cheat more often than women, with 20 percent of men admitting they cheated during marriage as opposed to only 13 percent of women, according to the General Social Survey. Clearly the MGTOWs are working with what Kellyanne Conway once famously called “alternative facts,” otherwise known as alternatives to facts.
Other commenters have their own bits of “wisdom” they think are worth sharing with barely teenage boys. Some were merely inappropriate. “First show him safe porn and let him have a coom in peace so he will be thinking with the correct head,” advised CelebritySteam.
After that lay out AWALT [All Women Are Like That] behaviors. If he’s smart now that he knows what he should be looking for he will see it himself. If not so smart he will get thotted a few times before getting it.
“Post nut clarity is a wonderful thing,” agreed Griever113.
Before you make any big decision, rub one out. If you still want to make that decision, spend the night and think it over.
Boys just love it when their dads are creepily obsessed with their masturbatory habits.
Some commenters offered advice that was simply baffling. “I would simply advise him to be discreet and discreet,” wrote RecentFix1.
But the majority of the commenters stuck with typical MGTOW misogyny. Silly_birb advised:
I would tell him
“Never trust females, especially those you like because they know it due to a sixth sense and they will try to use you”
“Females will throw you under the bus to be with the hot guy or to protect themselves to look bad in front of people”
“Women will judge a man only on his looks, which is not how he dress or act but simply genetic characteristics like a wide jaw, narrow eyes, face ratios, how tall he is and muscles”
“Most important thing: a girl is her friends.
She will always follow the group and they will condition her about who to date, and when she should leave or cheat”
What wonderful things to fill the head of a 14-year-old with.
“Tell him that often women will use a man for money or free food,” Shimakaze4 insisted.
She might say she likes you but does she really like you, or does she like you because you do something for her. Even my mother told me when I was 12 “be careful of girls, all they want is money and free stuff”.
Great job, mom.
“Never emotionally invest,” encouraged Hiromant.
If you like her, immediately distance yourself mentally. You can be nice to her within reason but if you fall in love and get oneitis, it’s over. Women love men who are somewhat indifferent to them.
I can’t think of a better formula for bad (or no) relationships.
DrPr0ctr credited his dad for instilling some red-pill wisdom when he was young.
My dad used subtle sayings like “don’t look them in the eyes” and things like that. It sort of fostered this natural distrust of women from a young age.
Uh, red pill aside, what the hell kind of advice is this? Women aren’t going to steal your soul by looking you in the eye.
In some ways the most depressing replies came from other MGTOWs fathers who admitted that they had tried at least a limited amount of “red pilling” with their sons of similar age.
Fill a kid’s head with shit and you’re likely to derail his life.
I can only hope the kids in question are able to see through the bullshit and forge a better life than that of their dads.
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Really bad advice if your son wants to be an optometrist.
(Nice to see you back by the way. I’m sure we all appreciate you doing this for us even with all you’re going through)
I think he was confusing women with bears.
One way to create a serial killer…
I hope the kid is able to see that his father is full of shit, shrug this all off, and get the hell away from his dad as soon as he can. Teen boys tend to not like listening to their fathers, so there may be hope yet.
Woman – Vagina = Terribly Boring Creature?
I think I’m pretty interesting. Does that mean that if I had a vagina I’d be even more so? And does it require the whole vagina or just the external bits?
I’d imagine there are probably a lot more who didn’t admit it, as with any self-reported survey people can easily lie.
I’m not a man and my father never did anything remotely sexual in my presence, but I think if my father had shown me porn or asked me to masturbate in front of him I would have run screaming. Even if I didn’t have dysphoria, I imagine this would be a typical reaction.
Putting aside the bit about masturbation, sleeping and then deciding the following morning isn’t horrible advice.
Fellow ladies, how does one acquire this sixth sense? And does it only work on men or does it work for women and non-binary folks too? Asking for a friend.
What does this even mean? Does he mean to protect themselves from looking bad in front of other people?
This sounds like a way to have a horrible relationship.
Wow, I’m so glad a man came along to tell me what I’d like in a relationship. Nevermind that he’s wrong.
That sounds like a very sad way to go through life. Toxic masculinity strikes again.
Dammit, the secret’s out!
Adding on to what Alan said, we are glad to see you back at it.
Child abuse. How disturbing.
OT but I’ve adopted a cat. he’s a seven year old tuxedo cat named Dr Smitty Thompson and very sweet. Doesn’t like any of the expensive cat stuff I bought as much as the old box on my shelf.
Yeah, it is. Here’s my advice to men who hate women: Don’t lie about your children’s mother to your children. Don’t say terrible, untrue things. Your children are not likely to forgive you.
Is….. is that something dads usually do with their cisgender sons? Give them porn? Ask them to masturbate in front of them?
Egads, that’s such a horrifying idea… all of this is awful.
Sure, raise your son to be emotionally stunted because you shame him with feminine descriptors if he dare show any emotions other than anger and lust, but also make sure you insist he rub one out while you literally watch… that totally won’t scar him for life.
ugggghhghghghhg…..
(I am a little curious, though… what kind of porn do they consider “safe” porn? Obviously anything gay or involving a transgender person or femme dom with a male sub would be out of the question, but… is it just no-frills cis straight people doing missionary for like… 90 seconds with no foreplay for the gal or what? Talk about boring….)
@an autistic giraffe
That’s great! Wishing the best for you and your kitty.
As for preferring random boxes to expensive stuff, my dog does a similar thing. She’ll completely ignore the toys I buy her, then amuse herself by attacking household objects.
@Seth S
I thought it meant softcore porn, but I really have no idea. I don’t watch porn so I don’t know much about the state of the industry.
@an autistic giraffe
My boyfriend and I both guffawed.
I think MGTOWs and their ilk are about equally frightened of bears and women.
@David
Good to have you back. It took me a while to process my grief about my mother’s death. Best wishes.
I feel terrified that some of these men may have LGBTQ+ kids.
I had a MGTOW/MRA-type father.
When I went off to college for my first term (10 weeks), I thought about him only fleetingly and only two or three times. I was thrilled about almost forgetting him and hoped — also fleetingly, because I didn’t want to think about that man — that this virtual blank in my thought processes could continue forever.
Apparently, this was too good to last.
During my second term I thought about him way too much, and this unpleasant pattern still continues.
I guess my psyche was giving me a break, which I really appreciate.
I think most parents, progressive or not, are quite reluctant to talk about sex or masturbation with their kids. I suspect even those adults who talk online like it’s no big deal are often engaging in armchair parenting.
This comment didn’t seem to suggest masturbating literally *in front* of the father, but it’s kinda creepy and stupid regardless. At 14 I had my first crushes at school but whenever those particular girls weren’t at my sight I was very “clear headed” in the sense that’s meant here.
(Also, I wasn’t ejaculating yet, but I’m a late bloomer.)
Very possibly “safe” is just used as a rhetorical emphasis here, reflecting the idea that porn is generally “safe” socially and emotionally, compared to the presumed alternative of seeking sexual gratification with women.
For anyone in need of a hug.
I’ve commented here long ago, but this post brought in me the need to talk about a (once?) friend of mine (evtl advices are welcome). But first of all: I’m very sorry David for your loss. Hope you get love from a lot of people, helping you coping.
I have/had this dear friend, who I hadn’t seen in a while since we live in two different countries now. He’s gay and hasn’t children on his own, but he’s a teacher for kids aged 11-13. I’ve accidentaly discovered, in our latest call, that he’s gone fully MRA and has started a twitter account dedicated to “fight misandry”, where he spews hatred and various insults against: women who want to do career, feminists, lesbians, ppl who advocate for women empowerment, BLM.
He says that patriarchy doesn’t exist, and when it existed was “actually good”, women are “disgusting and ugly”, leftists who advocate for feminism and minorities rights “aren’t good marxists” and are “spoiled petty bourgeois” (he’s “marxist-leninist), men are quite very oppressed and society just favors women, evtl. cultural differences between men and women are just biology so not avoidable (eg. interests, jobs, personality), feminist lesbians should be expelled from LGBTQ movement.
Well, the whole known MRA shit.
Since he’s a science educator (sex ed is included in curriculum) I’m afraid he’s going over his pupils with those ideas.
While I can fully agree with him about the need to solve problematic topics affecting men (eg. boys having a harder time in schools, prevalence of suicide and bad mental health in men, higher prevalence of work-related fatalities), I do not longer feel I want to keep in touch with someone displaying such hatred. Also, I suppose he despise me as a person, since I wanted to pursue a career, being not so much interested in “feminine” stuff (so not following what Nature has decided for me), of course being feminist.
In the last conversation we didn’t talked about that (I explicity diverted the topic to others) and I hadn’t looked at his twitter yet, but now don’t know what to do.
Thank you for your time (and sorry for bad English spelling/grammar, it’s not my native language).
This whole idea of indoctrinating their sons at such young age with their toxic believes is really messed up, they want their sons turned into bitter person (and have potentially abusive behaviour) by having bad, untrue ideas about woman. I think that still count as abusive to the son mentals that its just really unnecessary to them to already thinks this way about woman, its just really sad to think about the kids who had their dad or families that into this kind of messed up thing called “redpill” who will turn them into a bad person and just really unhelpful to their life and still developing minds.
And i’ve heard from some podcast that they actually will indoctrinate and target young boys into their messed up believes as young as 11yo.
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/daily-turning-misogyny-into-terror/id1496246490?i=1000494928566
I think it’s not the hardest even for children to shrug off such drivels, but it’s still concerning to see that. The poor childs at the very least will be in contact of undiluted hatred, which is never good, and they could still easily buy into this if it look helpful enough.
For extra squick, the username “Shimakaze4” make reference to a japanese warship who is depicted in a popular game as a <16 year old girl whose skirt would be more accurately called a belt.
@MorgainleFee
It sounds like this person is pretty far down the rabbithole, so I’m not sure how much there is to do with him. I’d suggest trying to show some data, but I get the feeling he’d just reject it offhand.
Since he is a teacher, have you considered trying to bring his online stuff to the attention of the school? I’m not sure in this specific case whom one would tell, but it’s an option.
Much better advice, from much nicer men. (SHINEE singing Girls, Girls,
Girls)
https://youtu.be/B8KYRwPRFrc
To some degree I second Naglfar. ‘When I was fourteen years old, my father was the biggest fool in the world. By the time I was twenty-one, it was amazing how much he’d learned.’ – Mark Twain.
@MorgaineleFee:
Agree both that these are serious problems that need to be addressed and also that they in no way justify misogynistic attitudes.
In particular, it’s ironic that so many misogynistic men are now trying to claim that boys’ underperforming academically in comparison to girls is evidence of some kind of “gynocracy” or anti-male oppression in the basic school format currently standard throughout most of the western world, because that basic school format was created exclusively by men exclusively for boys hundreds if not thousands of years ago.
The “sit in your seat quietly and listen to teacher” format, which educators (beginning with mostly female educators in the sixties-era school reform movement, btw) have rightly pointed out can be more difficult for boys than for girls, has been in use ever since the days when only boys typically received formal schooling, and then only from men.
Nobody (except a few reforming “cranks”, again mainly women) thought there was any problem with the standard schooling system until it was recently discovered that girls are typically able to outperform boys in it. Can’t have that, now can we?
Once feminism succeeded in reducing the academic disadvantages faced by girls to the point where larger numbers of girls could perform to their full academic potential, our society was able to perceive that the standard schooling system has some inbuilt comparative disadvantages for boys. You’re welcome, MGTOWs! Now that we’ve enabled you to understand that the problem exists, you’re doubtless just going to continue sitting around whining about it while expecting us to fix it with no help from you.
(It’s also ironic that any social structure in which men tend to have a natural advantage is typically treated as “just the way things are” and something that women are expected to “adapt to”. But any social structure in which women tend to have any kind of natural advantage, such as learning environments that are more effective overall for girls than for boys, is met with outraged screeches about how intolerably unjust and broken it is.)
@Kimstu
I would add that this format has some other issues, like being difficult for some neurodivergent students and trying to conform both varied students and lesson plans to a one size fits all model. Ideally educational reform would address this, which just so happens to be something pushed for by feminists. There do exist things which negatively impact men, but most of those are things that feminists and other progressives are actively working to fix while MRAs/MGTOWs sit around moaning.
I hope you are doing well. I’m so sorry about your mum. At least you know she was amazing and raised you better than these asshats. Please be well.
If I heard anyone spouting this rubbish to my nephew I’d slap them. How dare these pus bags damage their children with these lies. I wonder how many are divorced men trying to poison their children against the ex-wife/mother. That always goes sooooooo well! (sarcasm)
Also, good to see you back, David, take it steady and look after yourself.
I know these people lack self-awareness, but I’ve never seen that void collapse in on itself and create a black hole like this.
@Tabby
Irony jumped the rails and plowed through a circus before exploding, raining clowns down on a terrified public.
(Swiped from Jim Wright, and paraphrased because I couldn’t be arsed to go block-quote him.)
@ kimstu — I know, right? I keep hearing this BS about how “males and females learn in different ways” and “school systems favor girls early on,” and it always seems to boil down to, it’s cruel and unfair to expect boys to sit still, be quiet, pay attention to the teacher and do their homework.
And yet, for literally centuries of human experience, only boys were permitted to go to school. Guess what? Schools expected them to sit still, be quiet, pay attention to the teacher and do their homework. And for centuries, boys did all those things just fine.
Oh, but now, because girls are doing all those things just fine, and maybe even better, those expectations are suddenly oh-so-unfair to boys? Give me a break.
And even if we did, and believed in souls, we wouldn’t want a grody one like a miggy or incel.
@Battering Lamb
Maybe we could somehow convert it into a better one? Or combine it with others? Someone tell me how to do soul magic.
This sounds like advice from all the worst of Robert Plant’s lyrics, but instead of silly-fun Zeppelin wanking it’s been funneled through a game of telephone into a zeroth law of ‘she done me wrong’ where “me” is replaced with “all men.”
Or insert any rock lyricist with similar topics.
My stepfather used to say, “I don’t trust anything that bleeds for seven days and doesn’t die.” Then he’d laugh and laugh. Jerk.
@NautaliaC
A MGTOW band would be so depressing and horrible. I imagine some sort of post-grunge or nu-metal band where every song is about how horrible women are and talking about going their own way but never actually doing it.
This sounds so ripe for parody music.
@NautaliaC
Maybe if I have some time later I’ll write a song parodying it. I’m thinking Limp Bizkit or Korn but somehow even more angry and misogynistic. And throw in a few buzzwords.
@NautaliaC, Naglfar:
Weird Al already did ‘I Was Only Kidding’, which would fit in with a lot of these sorts of guys…
Though most of them aren’t capable of being that subtle.
@ jenora
Ah, that’s great timing! I was just thinking of paging you, to see if you had any thoughts on this NASA announcement. What can it be that you can only see in infra red and is related to future human exploration? We already know about the water, so that would be a bit of an anti-climax.
@ MGTOW music
It’s not quite MGTOW but Jilted John has a bit of an overlap with some incel whinges.
What NASA announcement? I seem to be missing some context here.
Bad parenting. We should all worship pussies.
Old-fashioned MGTOW music:
https://youtu.be/NdbiOMIC-N4
OT: for those of a certain skeptical bent, The Amazing Randi has died of old age:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/the-amazing-randi-famed-magician-and-escapologist-dies-at-92
On topic, I can only echo those here who hope that the kid(s) in question can purge themselves of this kind of ‘advice’ easily. Cause otherwise, yikes!
@Battering Lamb
Well, Halloween *is* just around the corner. Don’t know about anyone else, but I’m running low on eye of newt. I suppose eye of Incel/MRA twit could do in a pinch. Best dig out my best asbestos proof gloves though. Can’t be too careful harvesting something that toxic.
Oh, and as for their “souls” such as they are…sorry, the less said about that the better.
@Sheila Crosby:
*Tabby kitten hugs*…squee!!! Who doesn’t need that overload of cuteness?
Also glad to read the Dark Lord’s writing again, but, again DF, please take whatever breaks you need as you need them. Grief sets it’s own pace.
It’s interesting to see some of the people in the discussion David quotes use Japanese screen names. Apparently they’ve never heard, or manage to ignore, the Japanese term bishonen, which refers to young men with an androgynous appearance. A lot of Japanese women find the idea appealing, and someone described as bishonen generally isn’t muscular with a square jaw.
Then there’s the Takarazuka Revue, a musical theatre troupe where all the roles are played by women. Again we have an element of Japanese culture where the “men” aren’t the square jawed bruisers MGTOWs think are the desire of all women.
@Naglfar, @Kimstu:
thank you for your response.
The debate about which educational system is working best is quite ongoing. For me, as a feminist and part-time teacher myself, what matters the most in my profession is to make all the students to learn as much as possible, regardless of who they are/background, etc.
When I was doing my training, there where some textbooks about didactic methods (written by men, eg. Wilian Dylan) that pointed out how young boys tend to study little bc they want to show their peers they can reach good results without any effort. If they didn’t study and had unsatisfactory results, they could always say that it depended on external causes (didn’t study, had other to do, etc) rather than admitting they weren’t natural born geniuses. For girls, it looks like instead that it’s perfectly Ok to show you’ve studied hard in order to get good marks, so they in fact they get better marks in average.
Wiliam Dylan wrote that when he’s going out to schools,he points out that good results are always the product of many hours hard work, taking some famous examples from sports, in order to especially convince boys that studying hard is the right way and nothing to be ashamed of.
Also, when teaching sex ed last year (I also have a science background), the class had a discussions about societal expectations for boys and girls. One boy told that “in order to show you’re a real men, you feel pressured to show your peers you’re outstanding in something, could be school, or sport, or computer games, whatever”.
That sounds to me as the product of toxic ideals about masculinity, rather than a “hyperfeminized school”, or “feminist teaching doctrines” or whatever MRAs are spewing to complain about women.
@Naglfar
I’m usually reluctant to influence someone’s employer, and I think in this case it is also practically difficult. As long as the person behave *formally* in a correct way, he can’t get shit bc of personal opinions in his free time (and I also am for freedom of speech). It must be demonstrated, beyond any doubt, that those opinions are directly and negatively affecting the pupil’s studies and grades. I’ve no elements for this, but of course I’m concerned. I think it’s up to students and their parents to eventually report misconducts.
Also, I think you’re right that he’s down the rabbit hole. He tweeted about denying the existence of rape culture, he denies the higher prevalence of men’s doing DV and rape, brings up that “false accusations” are a relevant %, etc. So, bringing data it will be pointless, since he’ll reply that data are false and manipulated. There’s no much common ground for a discussion.
@Alan, about first post : but very good advice if he actually talk about gorgons, the only kind of women where it can be appropriate to not look into the eyes during discussions.
I mean, gorgons certainly are more real than the wimin they talk of.
@Morgaine : I have the impression educational methods actually make much less of a difference than class being smaller, professors being less stressed, personality of teachers and the like. In other words, I find that polemics around education methods to be a smoke screen who distract from real issues.
Now, about your friend, I would say that if you cannot do anything about him, then it’s not your problem and you should not fret about what to do. Trying to burden oneself with problems they can’t solve is a quick way to sadness (and depression, too).
As for whether he is dangerous to children, I would say it’s possible, but most childrens are perfectly able to cope with some, or even most, teachers being toxic and not end up toxic. Sure, he look like he is a problem, but a rather tame one all things considered, and the fact he is a MRA concern me more than a MRA being a teacher.
(also, do someone know from where come the “le fée” spelling ? Do it come from english ?)
@MorgaineleFee
If there is no common ground for a discussion it might be best to just avoid this person if possible. He sounds like he’s not a good presence in your life.
@Ohlmann, I think in British folklore at least, “le” may tend to get used with the more anglicised “Fay” (Morgan/Morgana/Morgaine le Fay) whereas versions of the stories and of the name that have stuck with “Fée” also keep the appropriate “la” (e.g. Morgan la Fée or la Fee). But IANAFolklorist (cultural anthropologist???) so I dunno, it may be that lots of variants are in use 🙂
@Alan Robertshaw:
I don’t see a link to which NASA announcement you’re talking about, either.
@ jenora
This is NASA’s own rather bland teaser. Lots of people seem to be getting pretty excited with the speculation though; which is probably setting ourselves up for massive disappointment 😀
https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-to-announce-new-science-results-about-moon
TIL learned that “muscles” are wholly dependent on your genes. Good to know!
@BigKitty
It took me a while before I could listen open-mindedly to stuff about “what to do with boys under-performing” because the first time I remember hearing suggestions, they were from someone who thought that gender-segregating some of the classes would help, the example given being that during a math lesson girls could stay in the classroom solving written problems while boys go out into a nearby forest with a teacher to see the same stuff demonstrated in real life.
I’m still a bit miffed about that, since it seemed like it was punishing these hypothetical girls for their hypothetical good behaviour. Also, of you have the teaching resources to divide classes in half part-time, maybe just teach smaller groups?
@Kat
Was it because [your] boyfriend is a bear?
@Masse_mysteria
I would think this would be a better option given the resources, seeing as it would allow a better teacher-student ratio.
I admit I’m also very cynical of the “boys are underperforming” line because 99% of the time I see it brought up it’s by MRAs arguing in bad faith. Maybe there’s some truth to it and maybe something should be done to address it, but it’s not really my biggest concern when it comes to fixing education.