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bad science hetsplaining homophobia lesbians don't real red pill

Reddit Red Pillers ask the important question: Are lesbians real?

Red Pillers see themselves as serious, scientific students of the human condition, helping one another make sense of the sometimes hard truths of human nature. In the Ask The Red Pill subreddit, they deal forthrightly with important questions about life and how to live it. Like: What do I do if my girlfriend insists on walking in front of me? Is playing piano a beta cuck activity? And perhaps the most perplexing question of all: Are lesbians real?

I am happy to announce that Red Pill scientists have reached a consensus on this critical issue: No, lesbians do not exist, outside of a tiny handful of really screwed-up ladies. And also, they’re ugly.

Let’s look at the scientific evidence. According to one Red Pill commenter called Joey_Lopez,

Most of the lesbians I’ve known are not really lesbians. They play lesbian because they think it’ll make them hotter. Without that gimmick more of them would just be below average.

The real lesbians are a product of toxic feminism. They been trained to see men with such disdain that to them the only logical thing to do is get with a female.

Zxcvb7809 is equally blunt:

Every woman I know who claims she is a lesbian sleeps with or has slept with men. They are closer to the socially inept side of the scale I will add which might explain why they would just go for women as opposed to men. I kind of see it as a cop out.

-saltymangos- offers this explanation: 

They aren’t real.

In their minds, unattainable/taken men are more attractive. They want what they can’t have. So, they apply this to their own lives and try to become “unattainable” in hopes of being more attractive in the man’s eye. This is only true for women, not men. Men don’t see you as more attractive if you’re taken, but some women cannot think/see past that and get with another woman in hopes of becoming “unattainable” and therefore more attractive.

Very wise, Mr. Mangos, very wise.

TheTrenTr*nnyTrain has a simpler explanation:

There are no lesbians, only ugly women who can’t attract men.

Now, there are a few dissenters. According to BoundaryChimps,

Homosexual behavior can be seen sometimes in non-human animals, so it can’t possibly be only an artifact of girls trying to play games or even of general human psychology.

The only thing left is that it’s real, and that it exists at a level below whatever makes us humans special. Maybe it’s wires accidentally getting crossed before birth or whatever (I mean, it’s not like they contribute to the gene pool), but whatever the cause it is most definitely a thing.

There’s even one dissenter who claims that there are not only lesbians but that some of them are actually pretty.

“It’s not just ugly chicks.,”_Anarchon_ claims,

There are some good looking chicks with deep-seated issues that causes it…typically borderline personality disorder type stuff (abandonment, early abuse, etc). It’s basically incels and femcels that go gay.

I’m not sure I can accept that. The contributions of -saltymangos- and his esteemed colleagues are quite compelling.

And now onto other important questions: Are women mammals? Can they stand upright on their hind legs? Are they capable of tool use?

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Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
9 days ago

@Seth S. I hope your family will accept you for who you are. Thanks for sharing, some of it really hit home for me. Especially:

When selfies became a thing in the mid-aughts, I just didn’t really… do that. I hated seeing photos of myself, though I never knew why.

I avoid looking at reflective surfaces for that same reason. Same applies to hearing my own voice. True, everyone has that to a point but supposedly it is something you get used to. I never did, and I really tried. I talk a lot for my job and people often tell me I have a relaxing voice (and a pretty deep one at that). I could possibly even agree, it’s just that the voice is mine that’s the problem.

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 days ago

@Battering Lamb

I avoid looking at reflective surfaces for that same reason. Same applies to hearing my own voice.

I tend to avoid that as well, even though I have managed to somewhat reduce my dysphoria about my appearance. What really hurts is looking at old pictures of myself that have short hair. My relatives (who don’t know I’m trans) always want to look at old pictures with me and I just can’t.

NautaliaC
NautaliaC
9 days ago

@Seth S. I wish you the best of luck. A lot of your understanding of your experience hit home for me. Though Battering Lamb quoted the selfie thing already that was the part that made my 20s a blur. I chose to be the eternal and invisible support for friends just so the spotlight wouldn’t be on me. I couldn’t handle photos of myself before my transition.

I don’t exactly know why, but all the below the waist stuff never bothered me, just my face (shape, facial hair, short hair) and chest did. My issue is equal parts physical and social. I cannot promise anything but if you have family that remain close to you or choose to push past their preconceived notions after you come out, I think that’s cause to cherish them. I was raised conservative Christian, though thankfully medically-minded. I was surprised at the efforts my parents have taken and delighted. They’re not perfect, no, but it’s much better than estrangement.

As for being an apparently non-existent lesbian it’s so weird that I keep bumping into other non-existent lesbians. It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to disbelieve the existence of an entire group of people.

Lizzie
Lizzie
9 days ago

Best wishes to you, Seth, take care.

Last edited 9 days ago by Lizzie
Ohlmann
Ohlmann
9 days ago

@Nautalia : I believe that’s because for convenience, everything that do not exist is in the same place. So here are transexuals, homosexuals, intelligent people of color, people that don’t get money from trickle down economics, climate change, and the like.

That place is commonly called “reality”.

mouse sparrow
mouse sparrow
9 days ago

@NautaliaC; my mother rejects me so I’ve gone back in the closet. I don’t know what my brother thinks of me and he never talks to me so I don’t know.

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
9 days ago

@Mouse Sparrow: Aw, that blows. At the moment I’m still closeted, I plan to start attempting to transition soon (I have a meeting for trans women this weekend (Online because covid, obviously) where I hope to ask about the specifics about how to start), and haven’t told anyone aside from a very close group (my partner and three very close friends) yet, because I’m terrified of simply not being believed or taken seriously. I hope you have a support network of people where you don’t have to hide, it helps a lot.
@Naglfar: I can imagine. It is quite difficult to find a picture of me as a child where I’m smiling. Or it would be, if those weren’t the ones my parents tend to hang among the family pictures.

As for being an apparently non-existent lesbian it’s so weird that I keep bumping into other non-existent lesbians. It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to disbelieve the existence of an entire group of people.

*Non-existent psychic high-five of appropriate social distancing +2*

I mean, strictly speaking I like men too, it’s just that I realised that very late in life and the pool of specimens that fall within my tastes is significantly smaller.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
9 days ago

I’ve seen repeated mentions here that trans people don’t always experience strong dysphoria about their body, or recognize it as abnormal if they do. Out of curiosity: how do such individuals discover that they are trans?

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
8 days ago

@Surplus: I don’t know. My dysforia is primarily aimed at my body, so I can’t answer that. I do find it an interesting question, though.

Valentin
Valentin
8 days ago

Please take the word allosexual seriously. It is very helpful to ace people like me the way that cis is helpful to trans people. And already ace people struggle with people not taking us seriously, saying we are not LGBTQIA+ or that we just didnt find the right person or that we are frigid or childish.

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
8 days ago

Please take the word allosexual seriously. It is very helpful to ace people like me the way that cis is helpful to trans people. And already ace people struggle with people not taking us seriously, saying we are not LGBTQIA+ or that we just didnt find the right person or that we are frigid or childish.

Fair enough. It is a useful term. I apologize for the joke.

Valentin
Valentin
8 days ago

Out of curiosity: how do such individuals discover that they are trans?</blockquote

Gender euphoria. Something will confirm to them that just feels right. For example, this year my body changed more and I found that I felt much more comfortable with how this related to my gender. It became more clear to me how I am non binary and how my gender is. I didnt have dysphoria but I realised how I feel more comfortable with my body. And if that is less like binary gender.

Edit, battering lamb, thank you I just wanted to comment becuase I think ace/aro is not discussed very much, especially about the issues that ace/aro people face

Last edited 8 days ago by Valentin
Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
8 days ago

@Valentin: I had confused the term with something like ‘sapiosexual’. But I agree, ace/aro issues can do with some more recognition and respect, and I should have googled before I shared a silly word association.

This is the first time I’ve heard of the term gender euphoria. I will look into that.

Seth S
Seth S
8 days ago

@ all, thank you! I means a lot <3

@Surplus, if you read my story, that’s one way someone who doesn’t HATE their body figures it out. There’s actually a large number of people in my local drag community who didn’t figure out they were trans or didn’t start putting the pieces together until they did drag. They, too, mostly felt pretty meh/bleh about their bodies and were just going through life, trying to make their lives and their bodies work. Then drag gave us the chance to have an experience like I did my first time in male drag, which is called gender EUPHORIA (to contrast with dysphoria), and I’d dare say it’s probably more common than that miserable “I saw myself in the mirror and now I want to die” kind of dysphoria you see on Tumblr. It’s a much more positive affirmation of your identity, at least.

For people who didn’t do drag or have a gender euphoric experience in some other way… it’s not necessarily hating your body, but wishing and imagining you had a different one, repeatedly, because you enjoy the idea of having that body more, or you wish you could take part in some experience that’s “only” for the other gender, and it’s something that comes up more than once.

The reddit community “egg_irl” talks/jokes a lot about this kind of experience through memes. To “crack one’s egg” is to admit (at least to yourself even if not to anyone else) that you’re trans. And, just saying, if anything there feels a little too painfully relatable to you, then I may have to recommend you some self-exploration, because…

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 days ago

@Seth S

For people who didn’t do drag or have a gender euphoric experience in some other way… it’s not necessarily hating your body, but wishing and imagining you had a different one, repeatedly, because you enjoy the idea of having that body more, or you wish you could take part in some experience that’s “only” for the other gender, and it’s something that comes up more than once.

That was pretty much my experience. I was sad when I didn’t develop breasts at puberty (I sort of did, but they’re small and not very noticeable since I haven’t started feminizing HRT) and I was really annoyed to get chest hair. I remember as a teen thinking that I wished I was a woman, but dismissing it because I thought I had to be a man. I thought all AMAB people didn’t like their bodies and that hating my body was just part of life. I vaguely knew what trans women were, but at the time I had only heard of straight trans women and I was bisexual with a preference for women, so I thought I couldn’t be a trans woman. It wasn’t until more recently that I figured out that my experiences weren’t unique and that there were trans women who weren’t straight (in fact, most aren’t).

It might be worth noting that when I first realized I didn’t have to be a man, I originally thought that I was non-binary but now recognize that I am a binary woman. I came out on WHTM in November of 2019 and came out to a few close friends IRL earlier in the pandemic. If the pandemic hadn’t happened I would probably be out to more people and hopefully could have started medically transitioning.

As for experiences, I really wish I could give birth. I can’t, and probably never will be able to, but I wish I could. Lactation is another thing I wish I could do, and that’s something that I hopefully can do one day as other trans women have been able to do it.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
8 days ago

There’s a YA novel called Dreadnought that I first heard about last week, and it’s about a teenaged transgirl who suddenly gets her wish granted … but while the transition is physically perfect, there’s more to becoming a woman than, well, becoming a woman. Our heroine Danielle finds herself smack in the middle of female puberty, and it’s a major culture shock for someone who’s been going through male puberty (and hating it). She gets the fun of buying her first bras with her mom, but also the pain of seeing/experiencing sexism from a girl’s POV.

I’m not trans myself, but books like Dreadnought give me at least the general shape of what it’s like for transfolk, and I’m going to keep reading and listening to improve my understanding. Thank you to those here who have shared your own experiences. I promise to keep listening.

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
8 days ago

I remember as a teen thinking that I wished I was a woman, but dismissing it because I thought I had to be a man. I thought all AMAB people didn’t like their bodies and that hating my body was just part of life. I vaguely knew what trans women were, but at the time I had only heard of straight trans women and I was bisexual with a preference for women, so I thought I couldn’t be a trans woman.

It is quite a relief to hear this is actually pretty common. When I first heard the term ‘autogynephillia’ tossed around, it really messed me up because it felt like my feelings betrayed my feminist beliefs (as a man invading the ultimate female space or something). I also generally felt really uncomfortable when people flirted with me because it didn’t feel like they flirted with ‘me’. I guess the fact that my partner is pansexual with a fluid sense of gender alleviated that discomfort a lot, as it assured me that it wasn’t my perceived masculinity that drew them.

@Seth: I guess that was what the feeling of intense relief was when I shaved my chest and legs last summer. I did it to deal with the heat. It didn’t help with the heat, but it just felt right. Not fixed, but better. It was the crux that pushed me to ‘I need to do something with this’. At least I know that my work will not have issues with it, as I have an out trans co-worker and everyone is very respectful and supportive. Even the ones who lean a bit more conservative (by dutch standards, but still) did their utmost to use proper pronouns and treat him like everyone else.

NautaliaC
NautaliaC
8 days ago

@Battering Lamb

When I first heard the term ‘autogynephillia’ tossed around, it really messed me up because it felt like my feelings betrayed my feminist beliefs (as a man invading the ultimate female space or something). I also generally felt really uncomfortable when people flirted with me because it didn’t feel like they flirted with ‘me’.

I got a similar reaction to the term and it hit me in the unique way of denying my sexuality if I wanted to confirm my gender and vice-versa. It’s particularly tough since I’ve always had a high libido and the hormone therapy only proved to strengthen it, so I had to come to terms with this awful double-bind. The biggest thing that helped me through it is to remind myself that every woman’s experience is unique and if my own understanding of feminism clashes with another person’s then I can debate within the boundaries I set up. I’m not at all a representative of trans lesbian women; even among any intersection of what makes me. This leads me to seek out others’ experience. I guess what I’m saying is it’s not just cis people learning from trans people but also trans people learning from trans people.

And when it came to dating before my transition? Well, it was always doomed to fail because the deeper it got, the more risk I was taking that I’d be locked into a masculine role I subconsciously did not want. Though, I totally get that third person feeling of “who are you flirting with? Clearly it’s not me.”

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 days ago

@Battering Lamb

I also generally felt really uncomfortable when people flirted with me because it didn’t feel like they flirted with ‘me’.

I felt this hard. I’ve been flirted with mostly by straight women (and a few gay men), and in both cases I always felt deceptive when responding because they were falling in love with a façade rather than what I was. I did performative masculinity because I felt I had to, and that was what many potential partners seemed to be interested in. One of the reasons I have avoided dating since cracking my egg, even before the pandemic, is because I know that the relationship will likely fall apart whenever I come out, and I know too many people who had that happen to them.

I’ve been shaving my chest and legs for years, it got me some weird looks but alleviated a lot of discomfort (especially shaving my chest).

@NautaliaC

This leads me to seek out others’ experience.

I did a lot of reading up on other people’s experiences while cracking my egg. It was very reassuring to learn that 1) I didn’t have to live as a man anymore, 2) it was okay to be a sapphic trans woman, and 3) most importantly, other people had had the same experiences as me and I wasn’t just an aberration. I know that as with any facet of the human condition, we all experience womanhood differently, but it was reassuring to learn how much my life had had in common with the pre-transition experiences of other trans women.

mouse sparrow
mouse sparrow
8 days ago

@Naglfar, I really wish it was possible for AFAB people who don’t want kids to give their parts to AMAB people who do, and vice versa.
I honestly believed I’d be going through a male puberty and felt betrayed when I got my period. I don’t know why, but I thought I’d suddenly turn into a boy.

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 days ago

@mouse sparrow

I really wish it was possible for AFAB people who don’t want kids to give their parts to AMAB people who do, and vice versa.

So do I. I’d happily give some AFAB person my bits in exchange for a uterus. Uterine transplants have been performed in cis women who were born without uteruses, so it might be possible one day to transplant uteruses into trans women, but it probably would require a deceased donor.

Going the other direction, some medical institutions are now looking into penis transplants for trans men, so that might be possible soon.

Another real breakthrough would be transplanting gonads, as that would mean we could produce our own hormones. This appears to already have been done for AFAB people with ovarian issues, but I don’t think any trans person has received this.

an autistic giraffe
an autistic giraffe
8 days ago

OT But the USA’s death toll from the Coronavirus has officially surpassed the USA’s combat deaths from the civil war. Trump has killed more Americans then Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson. I’ll bet he’s proud of himself.

Last edited 8 days ago by an autistic giraffe
Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
8 days ago

@Victorious Parasol: I just started reading that book yesterday! Did you happen to hear of it via the youtuber Dominic Noble?
@NautiliaC: One thing that pushed me over that hurdle was that apparently research showed that the feeling of ‘autogynephillia’ was something that also applied to about 95% of cis women. Almost as if ones body is part of ones sexuality and dysphoria can be a factor in that.
@Mouse Sparrow: I remember watching an episode of Misfits where there was a trans guy who could switch his genitals with someone elses. I mean, there were consent issues involved (the story was from the perspective of a cis man who’s dick was stolen) but I was pretty jealous of the ability itself (though hoping that it didn’t just apply to myself but I coud also help others with it).
@Naglfar: The chest definitely mattered more than the legs. As a fellow metalhead I too did a lot of performative masculinity (mostly in the hope that it would fit if I figured it out), especially as a teenager. Trying my hardest to grow a beard, trying to frame my discomfort about being flirted with as an ideological stance (I just have standards, man). It got pretty obnoxious. It is not the most feminine subculture out there./understatement. Aside from my current partner all of the successful flirting/dating involved me being under the influence of alcohol or drugs to deal with that discomfort. For the sake of clarity: This is not a good idea.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
8 days ago

Sort of OT too : there were a big tournament of the cardgame MtG. One of the top 8 players is a trans, but instead of celebration their* twitter is now closed to public. For some reason, I suspect people have been way too toxic seeing a trans win at their games.

* I hope I remember the pronoun correctly.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
7 days ago

@Battering Lamb

Yes, I am indeed one of his Beautiful Watchers!

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 days ago

@an autistic giraffe
At this rate we will surpass WWII by Inauguration Day. Trump will have killed more Americans than the axis powers.

@Battering Lamb
I think part of why I got into metal originally was because it was a subculture about not fitting in, which I could relate to because I’d never fit in. It was also a subculture where being a male-presenting person with long hair was pretty common and didn’t face extra scrutiny.

Last edited 7 days ago by Naglfar
Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
7 days ago

@Naglfar: At first for me it was that it was the only music that was loud and angry enough to resonate with me at that time. And while I still prefer loud and angry, I tend to prefer a lot more technical and vocal skill these days.
@VP: He is a precious cinnamon role and I appreciate his effort to always at least try to respect something even if he doesn’t understand it. Was it also you who recommended Elisa Hansen’s The Company of Death a while back? Because I enjoyed that one a lot too.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
7 days ago

@Battering Lamb

I don’t remember if it was me, but I do know the Maven’s channel, and I may’ve mentioned her book as an example of stories with an ace character. I certainly would encourage people to buy it!

Hambeast
Hambeast
7 days ago

Naglfar and mouse sparrow – I’m a cis/straight woman and knew at a young age (11 and pre-menarche) that I never wanted to have kids. I would gladly have donated my bits but, sadly, did not know about trans folk until the mid/late 90s and doctors* wouldn’t do it anyway. Now it’s too late since the expiration date of the bits has passed (post menopause now.)

I used to have a rather outsized sex drive but I believe I have always been pretty much aromantic. Pretending at romance was a means to an end for me; I just wanted the sex. It would have been nice to be able to have a friendship based on that, but social norms never did cooperate.

Now, I’m ace, too. I don’t have the problems Val mentioned. I’m pretty sure it’s because vanishingly few people want to imagine post-menopausal women as sexual beings.

*I inquired about permanent sterilization once and all I got was a lecture. I’m sure you can imagine what it entailed.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
7 days ago

Anyone know if David’s OK? Still not back on twitter, or I’d check

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 days ago

@Threp
David last tweeted about 4 hours ago, so I’m pretty sure he’s alive. Probably just busy or taking some time for other stuff.

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
7 days ago

I inquired about permanent sterilization once and all I got was a lecture.

For what it’s worth, when I inquired a couple of years ago I got a similar response (as a dude-looking person). Something about how I couldn’t possibly know for sure that I wouldn’t change my mind etc.

Perry
Perry
7 days ago

So much of this stuff is absolutely unhinged. Just the product of not leaving your house enough and learning about other people from internet echo chambers.

That being said, I have to know gay dudes exist to these people. Are they also mentally ill or the ultimate MGTOWs?

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
7 days ago

The thing being, since sterilization cannot be reversed, I believe it’s better to be prudent

The upside of doctors being really unwilling to sterilize someone even if s/he want to is that they won’t get permanent consequence if the request was made under the influence of a sect (or depression, or whatever) that they shook off after.

The downside is that they are almost as unwilling when there *is* strong medial value in being sterilized. Particulary for women whose menstruations tend to not go well.

Lastly, I would hope that it also mean doctors would be very unwilling to sterilize someone against his or her will (at the request of the governement for example), but past examples don’t make me super optimistic on that. Forced sterilization for trans is a thing :/

(I don’t ever want children either)

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 days ago

@Perry
The MGTOW stance on gay men is either that they’re men who have given up or they don’t exist.

@Ohlmann
The thing is, it seems to be very rare for someone to seek sterilization, then regret it. And, the language used in denying the sterilization is often very cisheteronormative. I knew a lesbian who had uterine problems and wanted to get a hysterectomy, but the doctor refused on the grounds that she could somehow become straight and want to have children with a man.

As for forced sterilization, unfortunately that is going on the US right now to migrant women. It appears the gatekeeping hasn’t helped people who don’t want to be sterilized.

Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
6 days ago

Are lesbians real?

Don’t be ridiculous. Of course they’re not real. All they need is you, Red Piller, and they’ll understand that. Every lesbian is just a straight woman who hasn’t met you — yet.

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
6 days ago

@Ohlman: It makes sense that a doctor would want to know more about the circumstances of why someone would seek sterilization. It’s just that most aren’t even willing to discuss it. I started out asking about more permanent forms of contraception for men. The doctor flatout said that the only option was sterilization and that would be unlikely. I had been following research on the subject of contraception for a while since my partner wasn’t on the pill and neither of us want children.

I know that in the netherlands trans people were forced to be sterilized as part of their transition until as late as 2014. Some trans people I follow on youtube have also mention being required to be sterilized (one from Austria, one from Sweden). As Naglfar stated, weird how it is not an option except when the government wants it (ok, not even then because there’s nothing optional about it).

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
6 days ago

https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-trump-is-willing-to-dismantle-democracy-to-hold-on-to-power/

Especially interesting is this passage:

On the bright side, Trump’s reactionary international is now countered by the new Progressive International, which grew from the Sanders movement in the U.S. and a European counterpart, DiEM25, a transnational movement seeking to preserve and strengthen what is of value in the European Union while overcoming its severe flaws. It has also drawn in a wide range of representatives from the Global South. Its first international conference just took place in Iceland, where the prime minister is a member. Though it of course lacks the resources of violence and wealth of the reactionary international, it has promise to become a people’s representative in the global class war that is underway to determine the contours of the post-pandemic world.

One wonders if we’re beginning here to see the outlines of the major factions of World War III.

Amtep
Amtep
6 days ago

If lesbians were real, we would have seen one on TV by now.
(There are lesbians in movies but they are done with CGI)

Seth S
Seth S
6 days ago

Re: wanting sterilization, I’ve known an… unfortunate number of people (mostly cis women) for whom pregnancy was medically inadvisable due to serious chronic illnesses that could cause deadly complications if they were to become pregnant… and also some people who would become suicidal if they became pregnant, they were so averse. And yet when they asked about sterilization, just so they wouldn’t have to worry about possibly killing themselves with/due to an accidental pregnancy, they STILL got the boilerplate “No, we won’t do that, because what if you change your mind?” About what, asshole, about being DEAD?

I remember my mom went through the same damn thing…. told she was so scarred up inside from endometriosis and an ectopic pregnancy that a pregnancy was highly unlikely AND inadvisable, yet two doctors turned her down for a hysterectomy “in case” she changed her mind. It had been well thought out, believe me… I wasn’t an only child for lack of desire, but she felt it best for her health and wellbeing that that door get closed for good. By the time she finally had her hysterectomy, she had one of the worst endo cases the doc had ever seen in nearly 40 years of his career and the surgery took longer than they thought because there was so much. Uterine tissue adhesions were everywhere, even wrapped around her intestines (interestingly, her “irritable bowel” VANISHED after the surgery.)

I know there’s always “what if you change your mind” because there’s always that handful of idiots who aren’t sure or will claim they were misled about what STERILIZATION is, but at the same time it really infantilizes people to be questioning their judgment at every turn. Patients should know what’s best for their own bodies. Being that this is mostly cis women, as if they don’t have to go through enough infantilization and “you don’t really understand what you’re doing” attitude already. It’s so fucking insulting.

I feel fortunate that my gyno was willing to remove my uterus so quickly when I only had moderate endometriosis… painful, but not debilitating. But then, I am over 40 – and that doc is pretty cool, she’s the one providing my testosterone. It was really just a happy coincidence that I would have wanted that uterus gone anyway.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
6 days ago

I think the ethic for sterilization should be similar to the ethic for amputation. Including the part where doctors do not hesitate doing it when needed.

(and, yes, uterine problems are easily a need for hyterectomie)

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 days ago

@Amtep

There are lesbians in movies but they are done with CGI

Is Ellen DeGeneres made with CGI too?

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
6 days ago

@Seth S. : people routinely make horribly wrong decisions about their bodies that they regret almost immediately. The system need to have an adult in the room about non-reversible decision, because the legitimate owner of the body quite often won’t be the adult.The idea that people know what is best for their body is pretty much disproved daily ; there could be an argument that specifically for sterilization people actually are serious, but I am skeptical.

The fact we only care about women* losing their ability to reproduce is however an head banger, as is the absurd amount of resistance of a lot of doctors. Similar to how women are handled many less painkillers than men on the basis that clearly they exagerate their pains, or how french doctors used women in anesthesia for medicine exercises without asking the woman first, or even after.

* okay, it also happen to men, but the incidence of debilitating or mortal diseases in penis is much lower than for women.

* and okay again, I could add to that heap delaying transition for trans, even while the morbidity of delaying transition is both well documented and horrifically high, while the morbidity of trying a transition while you aren’t trans seem to be very low or even 0, with the main obstacle to prove that definitely being “actually, it’s very hard to find people that started transition and changed their mind”.

nobody
nobody
6 days ago

Why sterilization is a problem:

1. Not actually one procedure, but could include several, with different degrees of outcome.

2. Hormones are not just for “having babies”. They are part of overall wellness. Some of the most persistent health ignorance is that estrogen and testosterone are “sex hormones”. It is more accurate to say they serve different functions. Most testosterone produced by men is used for reproductive health. Both women and men use testosterone to build muscle, and that is mostly precursors produced by the adrenals. For instance.

Keeping hormone balance is the main reason I never took the Pill.

3. Some surgeries… hysterectomy…can involve cutting tendons that are crucial for core strength. Unless you are below 30 or an amateur athlete who knows exactly how to rebuild your strength, you may never get it back.

I AM an amateur athlete. I would NEVER have elective surgery involving cutting muscle.

So, one has to educate themselves on exactly what is involved by “sterilization” and what you personally want. The ignorance is really alarming. I knew one guy who thought a vasectomy was the same as neutering a cat. No, duffus, that is
castration. Same result … infertility…but completely different surgeries.

Last edited 6 days ago by nobody
Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
6 days ago

@ Amtep

There are lesbians in movies but they are done with CGI

I’ve always preferred the ones done with practical FX, and thank heavens movies are beginning to do that again with just a little CGI cleanup in post-production.

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
6 days ago

@Nobody: Thanks for the info. It would have been nice if the doctor told me that, instead of ‘you’ll probably want children later’.

rv97
rv97
5 days ago

I’ve been reading about an article where a French woman wrote a book about how women don’t have to like men. The book was censored by the French government, citing misandry I believe.

This got me thinking, what are straight women to do if they don’t wish to be straight though, because misogyny is a real threat still?

Viscaria
Viscaria
5 days ago

@Ohlmann

@Seth S. : people routinely make horribly wrong decisions about their bodies that they regret almost immediately. The system need to have an adult in the room about non-reversible decision, because the legitimate owner of the body quite often won’t be the adult.

I’m the adult in every room I walk into because I am an adult. I suspect that the same is true of Seth’s acquaintances who risked death or serious complications from pregnancy.

Perhaps my deep discomfort with this idea that only medical professionals are adult enough to make decisions about another human being’s fertility is in part a result of living in a country with a history of institutionalized eugenics.

Last edited 5 days ago by Viscaria
Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 days ago

@Viscaria : you know, saying that you specifically is responsible enough is similar to wanting to drive without safety belt because you drive safely enough. That might be true, but it’s also totally irrelevant. I get from where the sentiment come, it still fall flat on the fact that it’s too important and irreversible to be the decision of one single person.

Doctors have serious, ongoing ethical issues, and I can understand not wanting them to have the final say to do something, but it’s also pretty much necessary to have them involved. There’s no good arguments to allow sterilization against medical opinion, regardless of you feeling being an adult, or feeling being informed enough, or being sure you will never regret it.

On other news, I actually screamed loud on reading about that article :

https://www.mediamatters.org/education/new-department-education-co-chair-said-conversion-therapy-psychologically-beneficial

And that people is still allowed to have some modicum of power. Sure, it’s par for the course with Trump, but I rarely have seen someone so obviously evil and inducing so much pain.

Viscaria
Viscaria
5 days ago

I think I was unclear. I shouldn’t have used the first person. My issue was narrowly with you referring to adults as not adults–any adults, not just me–and particular adults that you deem more worthy as actual adults. I also more widely disagree with your assessment that “it’s too important and irreversible to be the decision of one single person” when the one single person is the only one affected, but I was specifically taking issue with your infantalization of certain adults.

I dislike that regardless of context because I find it personally offensive to be called a child when I am not one, which is why I used the first person, but it’s also specifically relevant in this context. The supposed differences in maturity/decision-making capabilities of men v women, white people v people of colour, wealthy people v the poor, non-disabled people v disabled people were part of what has empowered eugenicists to make decisions about fertility on behalf of others.