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homophobia MGTOW misogyny toxic masculinity transphobia

Gucci releases a dress for men to challenge “toxic masculinity.” MGTOWs respond with … toxic masculinity

Yes, he’s also wearing pants

Gucci has inserted itself into the culture war by releasing a weirdly dowdy dress for men at the low, low price of $2600 a pop. The dress, more a publicity stunt for the brand than an actual product anyone will ever buy, is said to be a challenge to “toxic masculinity.”

And it sort of is, in that its drawn an assortment of toxic men out from the shadows to indignantly protest against this alleged insult to their brand of masculinity. I found a few of these guys (and a couple of sympathetic women) posting about the dress on Twitter:

The reactions were more intense over on my second-favorite hive of toxic masculinity, the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit. (On my first-favorite hive, Incels.co, the regulars seem not to have noticed the new dress yet.)

Some suggested that any man wearing the dress would deserve a beating.

“Anyone wearing this is pretty much asking to get beat up,” suggested melkiorr.

“The only thing that will be fluid would be the nose of anyone dumb enough to wear this in public,” joked ppkoto7.

My_name_jeff2 pulled out the t-word.  

Now, you can be a tr*nny without being mentally ill! For only £1699.99

Some lashed out at the model himself in homophobic ways.

“That n***a look like a bitch!” wrote HaywoodJabBitch.

“Behold the eternal virgin!” wrote EnvironmentalRest4. “Getting boned by guys doesn’t count, not in this case.”

Throwawayham1971 mocked any man who would go out and buy the dress.

There is a totally gay dude at Gucci laughing his ass off knowing damn well some fucking loser will buy this to try and get laid.

Rocko20002 tried to retroactively claim Kurt Cobain as an ally in bigotry.

Kurt Cobain might have been a feminist simp, but I’m convinced that if he saw this “grunge inspired” monstrosity sold for I’m guessing the equivalent of US $2000, he would blow his brains out again.

Cobain might have been offended by the price tag but he definitely had no problem with men wearing dresses, which he occasionally sported himself as a challenge to precisely that same toxic masculinity that Gucci is supposedly critiquing.

Luciano700 wrote that

If a man wants to cross dress. Fine that’s his problem not mine

But to shove this down our throats when it is clearly not at the preference of most? That’s going a little too far

It’s not clear how a designer selling a dress that no one is obligated to buy counts as shoving anything down anyone’s throat.

Other commenters saw the dress as a legitimate threat to their kind of masculinity.

“They want you neutered and then they’ll laugh at you” wrote ThrowawayGhostGuy1.

Vijaya_Narayana agreed:

They just want to pander to all of the people and organisations that seek to demonise and ostracize REAL masculinity, the world is changing, not for our benefit.

Monkonajourney challenged the very notion of “tocix masculinity” even as his colleagues in the MGTOW subreddit exhibited it all around him.

Fuck these bullshit societal brainwashing propaganda advertisements. Being a man is not toxic. Wearing masculine clothes is not toxic. Getting angry in the right situations is not toxic. Fighting for yourself and your loved ones is not toxic. Competition is not toxic. Standing up for yourself is not toxic. Not taking shit from anyone is not toxic. Growing a beard, building your physique is not toxic. If it intimidates certain snowflakes, that is their fucking problem. Stop trying to feminize men.

Well, if you make your definition of “toxic masculinity” a series of straw men, you’re only going to succeed in pissing yourself off. No, toxic masculinity isn’t any of those things, from wearing “masculine clothes” to growing a beard. Masculinity in itself is not toxic. Toxic masculinity involves a rigid adherence to an exaggerated version of masculinity that’s socially maladaptive and at times dangerous to people of all genders.

Truly righteous anger is not the problem; a man using anger and implied or real violence to control his wife is an example of masculinity gone toxic. Similarly, suggesting that gender-nonconforming men — say, men in dresses — should be beaten up is toxic masculinity.

Say what you will about Gucci’s ugly man-dress, but it certainly brought out the toxic men in droves, exposing their toxic masculinity in their own words.

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NewtonThePlant
NewtonThePlant
16 days ago

It’s hilarious when straight men accuse LGBTQ+ people of “shoving it down their throat.”

calmdown
calmdown
16 days ago

I have to admit I hate this kind of stunt too, but I try not to let pointless stuff like this rile me up. These guys are too foolish and not self aware enough to realize that overblown reactions reactions are exactly what Gucci wants.

Last edited 16 days ago by calmdown
Trying
Trying
16 days ago

Gucci is getting exactly what they wanted.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
16 days ago

Idk mate $2600 for a dress like that, seems highly overpriced.

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

Countdown until TERFs melt down over the “trans agenda.”

Gucci has inserted itself into the culture war by releasing a weirdly dowdy dress for men at the low, low price of $2600 a pop.

Wow, at that price it truly is a garment for the everyman.
What exactly was stopping men from buying women’s dresses anyway? I’m all for degendering clothing articles, but making a separate dress line for men does the opposite.

“The only thing that will be fluid would be the nose of anyone dumb enough to wear this in public,” joked ppkoto7.

Once again, cis people don’t know the difference between gender fluidity and gender non-conformity.

Similarly, suggesting that gender-nonconforming men — say, men in dresses — should be beaten up is toxic masculinity.

One would think a “Men’s Rights Activist” would not want men to be beaten…

Gentlemen, if you choose to wear a dress, can you at least choose one that isn’t this overpriced and find a better design? I can suggest some better choices.
My biggest issue with most dresses is the lack of pockets. Some garments that are stylish and functional at the same time would be nice.

I’m not an expert in fashion, but I stand by my proposal to bring back hoop skirts. Especially now, they could help with social distancing.

@Calmdown
My problem is that it’s performative. It’s like that thing last October where Pharell Williams wore a thing that looked halfway between a dress and a comforter. It’s a performative display of pushing gender roles that doesn’t actually change the landscape of fashion or masculinity, while also shifting the feminist conversation away from women and to men.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
16 days ago

Conservatives: We must not lift a finger to help the poor! Raising the minimum wage and regulating polluters is an affront to the FREE MARKET!!1! Viva la giant corporations!

Also conservatives: Help! By offering them for sale to anyone who wants them, this giant corporation is trying to shove man-dresses down our throats! It can’t be allowed!!one

Schnookums Von Fancypants, Naughty Basic Horse
Schnookums Von Fancypants, Naughty Basic Horse
16 days ago

I like Eddie Izzard’s take on this sort of thing, when he was asked about wearing women’s dresses “No, they’re men’s dresses. I’m a man, and I bought them.”

Banananananana dakry: still fat and deranged
Banananananana dakry: still fat and deranged
16 days ago

I don’t like that dress, but just because it’s ugly and orange. And overpriced. Okay, three things.

Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
16 days ago

Fuck these bullshit societal brainwashing propaganda advertisements. Being a man is not toxic. Wearing masculine clothes is not toxic. Getting angry in the right situations is not toxic. Fighting for yourself and your loved ones is not toxic. Competition is not toxic. Standing up for yourself is not toxic. Not taking shit from anyone is not toxic. Growing a beard, building your physique is not toxic. If it intimidates certain snowflakes, that is their fucking problem. Stop trying to feminize men.

Fuck manospherian bullshit brainwashing propaganda. Being a woman is not about catering to men. Wearing clothes that manospherians don’t admire is not a slap in their faces. Getting angry in the right situations is not problematic in the least. Fighting for yourself and your loved ones is not spiteful. Competition is not the opening salvo of a battle. Standing up for yourself is not venomous. Not taking shit from anyone is not warfare. Keeping healthy while ignoring beauty standards is not poisonous. If it intimidates certain manospherians, that is their fucking problem. Stop harassing women. Stop stalking women. Stop doxxing women. Stop killing women.

Last edited 16 days ago by Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Xyshurondor
Xyshurondor
16 days ago

“selling something for a very high price” = “shoving it down people’s throats”

When will Kanye West stop shoving all these sneakers down my throat?

LindsayIrene
LindsayIrene
16 days ago

I like frumpish clothes but that dress did not cost very much to make. It looks like an old home ec class project. Which is an esthetic I appreciate but only at thrift store prices. Fashion right now is split between cheap fast fashion that falls apart and ends up in landfills after a season and designer stuff so ludicrously overpriced that people that actually buy it should be mercilessly roasted. (Oh, and any of it that’s left unsold gets burned because heaven forbid the brand is degraded by showing up in discount stores).

Last edited 16 days ago by LindsayIrene
Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
16 days ago

@Naglfar

In theory (in theory) there could be a benefit to buying a dress tailored specifically for male (or AMAB) bodies, in the same way there can be a benefit in the other direction – usually I can’t just go into the men’s side of the shop and buy some trousers with actual good pockets, or button-up shirts that aren’t oddly flimsy, because those are built for bodies with different hips and waists and with room for a penis downstairs but none for breasts upstairs. So people with less curvy, non-breasted, bepenised bodies might be interested in having a dress cater to these aspects.
But then, this does not seem to be the case with this Gucci thing, which David had characterised very well as “weirdly dowdy”. It might have a bodice more tailored to a flat chest? Maybe there’s that. Hard to tell because it all looks so loose and unflattering. Still not worth the price tag (might as well buy a dress you actually like and have it modified) but that’s high fashion for ya.
[On a side note, don’t you just (unsarcastically) love it when very expensive things are also very ugly? “I can’t afford this, but oof, why would I want to?” – so much better than seeing something you actually really like but then finding out it’s too expensive o afford! Keep making ugly things, haut couture houses!]

And something else: Gucci aren’t even innovating here. There have been countless examples of men’s skirts and dresses on runways, for years now – possibly for decades. It’s a pretty common way of making high fashion edgy and pushing the envelope and all that jazz. The only new thing they’ve done here is use a feminist buzzword to drum up publicity. I mean, hey, it worked for Gilette.

ginger
ginger
16 days ago

That is one fugly dress.

At my former uni, male students often wore skirts. They’re called utilikilts and they’re practical and attractive.

Everybody should be able to wear what they want without others going batcrap crazy over it.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
16 days ago

It’s hilarious when straight men accuse LGBTQ+ people of “shoving it down their throat.”

Meanwhile, straight women don’t seem to usually complain about having it “rubbed in their face”.

Robert Baden
Robert Baden
16 days ago

Ever seen the price of a kilt?

Robert Baden
Robert Baden
16 days ago

Also look at Greek or Albanian ethnic dress.

personalpest
personalpest
16 days ago

@Penny Psmith:

There have been countless examples of men’s skirts and dresses on runways, for years now – possibly for decades.

Indeed. Here’s an example from 1970 that I’ve posted before:

C.A.Collins
C.A.Collins
16 days ago

That is one butt-ugly schmatte. The color doesn’t do a thing for him, either.

North Sea Sparkly Dragon
North Sea Sparkly Dragon
16 days ago

That dress is truly unflattering, it’s badly tailored in a terrible colour and the fabric looks cheap. Certainly not worth £1700! What’s worse, it’s not just a cheap dress but a cheap stunt, performative action by a company trying to either take advantage of gender non-conforming or non-binary people, or taking the piss out of us. I’m slightly leaning towards Gucci are taking the piss.

Clothes tailored to people with breasts often don’t fit people with no breasts, but then they don’t really fit people with big ones either. Personally I enjoy the freedom of buying shirts from ‘big men’ shops. If I go two sizes up I get a comfortable, roomy shirt that I can move in and that doesn’t drive my sensory sensitivities mad. And also last for years rather than ripping quickly – why are clothes for women so badly made? I have got a couple of pairs of cargo trousers tailored to penis-owners, The shorts fit okay but the trousers don’t have enough belly fat space. I still wear them regularly because all the pocketses! It’s possible, if you learn some basic tailoring to change and adapt off the shelf clothes to fit your particular body.

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@Penny Psmith

In theory (in theory) there could be a benefit to buying a dress tailored specifically for male (or AMAB) bodies, in the same way there can be a benefit in the other direction

Fair enough. For me, I’m just used to clothes not fitting well because despite being AMAB, I’ve never really been shaped like the average cis man so men’s clothing is generally too loose at the waist and way too tight at the hips and thighs. Even before I realized I was trans, women’s clothes tended to fit me better. I guess for someone with a more typically masculine figure the inverse might be true.

On a side note, don’t you just (unsarcastically) love it when very expensive things are also very ugly?

I think I heard somewhere that these kinds of things are mostly just an opportunity for designers to mess around how they want. A happy designer will be more productive in other regards.

@personalpest
And I’d say David Bowie’s outfit is a lot better looking too.

@North Sea Sparkly Dragon

I’m slightly leaning towards Gucci are taking the piss.

At the very least they’re not doing trans and GNC folk any favors by drumming up hate against them.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
16 days ago

That is one UGLY dress. Didn’t we have enough of Laura Ashley tablecloths being made into dresses in the 80’s? Not a style as needs to come back.

Alan Robertshaw
16 days ago

It is very much in keeping with the rest of Gucci’c winter collection. They seem to be going for that retro-70s vibe that keeps having a resurgence. That rummaging around charity shops look. Like with Smiths fans in the 80s and mid 90’s Pulp.

I must confess I don’t totally hate it. It’s a bit underwhelming; but give a fashion student a razor blade and a sewing kit and they might be able to jazz it up a bit.

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
16 days ago

comment image

This image of Eric Idle as a peasant was the first thing that came to mind. Seems a bit like a short robe or something. I don’t hate it, i strongly dislike the color though.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
16 days ago

I wish more men wore dresses actually.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
16 days ago

Like with Smiths fans in the 80s and mid 90’s Pulp.

You HAD to remind me, didn’t you. 😛

Crip Dyke
16 days ago

You think that the MRAs are freaked about men wearing dresses?

Wait til they find out about the CellMate – a locking “male chastity device” with no physical key or escape mechanism designed to be controlled by your partner’s cell phone.

Turns out it can be hacked. WHOOPS. More fun with the story at my blog but this seems like a story David should cover for its own sake. I can’t imagine the MRAs won’t be up hot & bothered over a story like this.

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
16 days ago

As with the previous complaint about pumpkin spice lattes, this seems to boil down to “Products exist that I don’t personally want to buy! It’s hellish oppression, I tell you!”
 
(I agree that there are far-more-attractive, better-priced dresses out there)
 
@Ginger: Utilikilts are great!

moregeekthan
moregeekthan
16 days ago

I have no desire to wear a dress, but would be all over unikilts if they showed up at the cheap places I shop.

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
16 days ago

I wish more men wore dresses actually.

I agree strongly with this sentiment.

Alan Robertshaw
16 days ago

Well of course it was wearing pants that resulted in the collapse of the Roman Empire…

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/trousers-pants-roman-history-banned-trajan

.45
.45
16 days ago

Funny. The other day I noticed that Fenty plus sized male thing and thought “Huh, when was the last time I saw a dweeby skinny male model like me?”

So I just have to say thank you Gucci, for representing guys like… $2,600?!?!?

(Yes, yes, I am aware that there are probably plenty of scuzzy looking male models who are skinnier than female runway models out there, way more than plus sized models. I just don’t pay attention.)

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@Crip Dyke

Wait til they find out about the CellMate – a locking “male chastity device” with no physical key or escape mechanism designed to be controlled by your partner’s cell phone.

All joking aside, having no manual unlock function seems like poor design.

I don’t know what the market for chastity devices is, but I’d imagine it’s fairly niche. As a result, I’m not sure if MRAs will take notice of this one in particular. Unless someone wants to go undercover to r/MensRights and post about it…

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
16 days ago

The story about lockable chastity belt have circulated a lot, so they could have taken note indeed.

My first thought is that the hackable devices are probably worth a premium for the added thrill. “Will I need to go to the hospital so they can bolter-cut my belt ?”. Sarcasm aside, that’s actually something some people can want. (fantasm of loss of control all that)

The MRAs meanwhile would probably whine that they will soon be forced to wear that, I guess.

That's a Moray
That's a Moray
16 days ago

$2600 and it looks like something a child would wear in the fifties. FFS

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
16 days ago

@Ohlmann, @Battering Lamb

Me three. But, uh. This ad. Are Gucci actually trying to sell this? Do they want it to fail?

Also why are we still doing this abusive “models should be rail thin” rubbish in the year 2020? This guy doesn’t look as starved as some female models I’ve seen, but he sure don’t look too healthy either.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
16 days ago

I don’t like Gucci to start with, so the hideousness didn’t jump at me considering where it came from. Plus, points for efforts.

As for the model, I have seen a lot of geeks who seemed just as thin. I mean, based on a single picture he just seem “naturally” thin, while female models often make me go “do she really have meal other than cocaine ?”. I get the complaint, and he was cast probably because he was very thin, but it don’t look unhealthy yet to me given what I see.

(whether we can see his rib bones when shirtless could easily sway my opinion)

LindsayIrene
LindsayIrene
16 days ago

Ever seen the price of a kilt?

The price of a traditional custom-made kilt makes sense. It’s made to measure, it involves a good quantity of high quality fabric, and then there’s the hand-sewn pleating and the leather straps. It’s an heirloom piece that can be passed down the generations. It also has resale value.

I like the Gucci dress more than most people here (I love orange), but my mom could sew something like that in an afternoon.

North Sea Sparkly Dragon
North Sea Sparkly Dragon
16 days ago

@LindsayIrene

The price of a traditional custom-made kilt makes sense. It’s made to measure, it involves a good quantity of high quality fabric, and then there’s the hand-sewn pleating and the leather straps. It’s an heirloom piece that can be passed down the generations. It also has resale value.

On the British Sewing Bee this year, they made children’s kilts, or an analogue of one anyway, and even for little kids it uses at least a couple of yards of fabric. For and adult it must be a lot more. I have heard that modern kilts developed from a sort of skirted cloak garment that needed to be big enough to wrap up in completely for sleeping outdoors, but I’m not sure how true that is. I know the modern kilt and tartans are a modernish invention of the 18th and 19th centuries, but not much more.

I have seen utilikilts, they look rather good, very practical. But ooh, brambles to the calves! That would be painful.

Nequam
Nequam
16 days ago

What exactly was stopping men from buying women’s dresses anyway?

Besides whether the chest area would fit right or not, most dresses lack pockets, or worse have fake ones.

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@Cyborgette

Are Gucci actually trying to sell this?

I get the feeling not, given the price which they know most people can’t afford.

I’d guess they either did this performatively or it was some designer’s idea of a spree day that they never planned to sell.

@Nequam

Besides whether the chest area would fit right or not, most dresses lack pockets, or worse have fake ones.

That’s an issue I have with dresses in general. I like dresses but I also like having pockets, and I would like to see more dresses with pockets.

Crip Dyke
16 days ago

@naglfar

I don’t know what the market for chastity devices is, but I’d imagine it’s fairly niche. As a result, I’m not sure if MRAs will take notice of this one in particular. Unless someone wants to go undercover to r/MensRights and post about it…

Tempting, but I’d have to create a reddit account.

All joking aside, having no manual unlock function seems like poor design.

Quite.

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@Crip Dyke

Tempting, but I’d have to create a reddit account.

I’ve got one that I never use. Should I do the honors?

Alan Robertshaw
16 days ago

@ cyborgette

Are Gucci actually trying to sell this?

An evening out in Hoxton would seem to indicate yes. If you know where to go you can pick up runway stuff for a lot less than book price though. There was a great stall in the old Spitalfields market that used to sell it; and it was a great place to pick up one-off designs. They’re pretty much only in one standard size though.

But fashion shows work a bit like Formula 1 or those concept cars you see at auto shows. It’s where designers can experiment with avant garde ideas and innovative tech, like traction control or central locking; and that eventually finds its way into regular cars.

Similarly, toned down versions of high concept fashion soon end up in high street stores.

Lukas Xavier
Lukas Xavier
16 days ago

I can’t help being struck by how pathetic their notions of manhood are. It’s like a child’s conception of what it means to be a grown-up, except it’s less cute when coming from a 40 year old.

ObSidJag
ObSidJag
16 days ago

Completely OT, but I see that 2 women have received the Nobel Prize for Chemistry?

Countdown to manospherean outrage in 4…3…2…

Alan Robertshaw
16 days ago

@ obsidjag

They can get 25% annoyed at this too

https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/2020/ghez/facts/

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@Lukas Xavier

It’s like a child’s conception of what it means to be a grown-up, except it’s less cute when coming from a 40 year old.

Come on, few children are anywhere near as obnoxious as manospherians.

@ObSidJag
I’d imagine they’re already not fans of the Nobel Prize seeing as over 20% of Nobel Prize winners have been Jewish.

lkeke35
lkeke35
16 days ago

Okay, I object to that dress on the grounds that it is hideous( because I hate fake plaids as a general rule),and orange simply is not his color. I would have gone for more jewel tones or perhaps for a more subdued autumn look.

Also, Billy Porter rocks dresses all the time and does it very very well.

There really isn’t anything stopping men from wearing dresses (like they used to) beyond just plain old sexism. I mean men used to wear heels before women didi, as well as dresses, wigs, and stockings (I too like a good turn of calf!) and I kinda wish they would again.

Big Titty Demon
Big Titty Demon
16 days ago

@Nahlfar

What exactly was stopping men from buying women’s dresses anyway? I’m all for degendering clothing articles, but making a separate dress line for men does the opposite.

Someone else addressed the fit issues, but the thing I wonder is if said dress line will be crappier quality? I personally would find it hilarious in a very unfair, schadenfreude-y way, because women’s clothing modeled from men’s clothing is universally made from cheaper, thinner materials that wear out faster. When buying suits, for example, at least as of five years ago if the suit did not have the marker “menswear quality” on it, it would be a cheap suit. Babydoll Ts are always thinner than unisex or men’s Ts, as are women’s shirts in general. I just don’t even buy women’s jeans anymore because I can’t find a pair that can hold up to what I need them to for more than 6 months (it’s not a lot, it was just walking a few miles in a day, before the plague times).

Would men’s dresses follow the same pattern, and be cheap quality unless tagged “womenswear quality”? Somehow I suspect not, but it would be accurate to the historical fashion developments trying to be reflected.

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@Big Titty Demon

I wonder is if said dress line will be crappier quality?

I rather doubt that a line of men’s dresses would be lower quality, given the price and given that it’s being made for men in a patriarchal society. If anything it would probably be better for that reason.

What we could see is some sort of inverse of the pink tax (the blue tax?) where men’s dresses would, like this one, cost far more than women’s equivalent garments. Since there would be lower demand, I anticipate costs would be higher and production lower unless there is a major fashion shift (which could happen but I doubt it).