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coronavirus trump

Trump’s got the ‘rona: Open thread

Don’t worry, Mr. President, it’s just a big hoax

Well. how about THAT for an October Surprise?

I would point out the ironies here but there really aren’t any. It’s basically the opposite of irony: Dude downplays the danger, doesn’t wear a mask and hangs out with other people not wearing masks, all because he thinks he’s a genetically superior human who’s immune to disease. Well, turns out he isn’t.

I have no idea how this is going to play out. This tweet pretty much sums it up:

Yep.

Open thread!

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Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@Diego
I can’t speak as to the motives of South American Trump supporters, but internalized misogyny definitely played a huge part in his rise to power. After all, a majority of white women in America voted for Trump, so I’d imagine women of other races who support Trump have the same internalized misogyny.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
16 days ago

@Dali : *NOTHING* justify automatic killing. Absolutely nothing. At the very, very, very least, you need a proper trial. You act and talk exactly like a far right goon, and I know since I have some in my family. It’s just that you pick up on other groups than them.

And, seriously, when your defence about acting like a nazi is that your outgroup is despicable, you’re way, way past the moral line. That being said, you’re a shining example of how fast righteous fury can turn into the french Terror.

@PoM : I fully agree. And it’s very important to be aware of that, because thinking oneself above that for whatever reason is fast track to being a racist facilitator. The main thing to remember is that outgroups will almost alway hate other minorities and outgroups. That’s why anti-white racism is alway to be considered with a ton of suspicion ; by and large, they don’t tend to be a target

Directly linked to the post : we have had the confirmation that Trump have been put on oxygen. It make his odds of dying dramatically higher, but still not super high. That being said, since the WH is so anally retensive about information, maybe he is in a medical coma right now, who know. Or already dead.

That being said, the informations we have is that he is in a bad spot, but still will likely survive. Sadly, as far as I know. Well, the way to the even better thing of him surviving, going out of coma after six or so month, and being indicted for life in prison afterwar is still open I guess.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
16 days ago

That’s why anti-white racism is alway to be considered with a ton of suspicion ; by and large, they don’t tend to be a target

I’m not talking about anti-white racism, which is just not a problem. White people have enough resources and power to shrug it off. I’m not talking about punching up.

I’m mostly talking about anti-indigenous racism, which is a huge issue in literally every country that has both an indigenous and a colonizer population. Which is to say every country in the New World and many in the Old. Any time there is conflict between colonizers and the indigenous population, the colonizers engage in systematic, institutionalized racism. This is just as big of a problem in Brazil and Canada as it is in the US.

However, anti-black racism is also a big thing in most places that have black and non-black populations. So you can include that as well.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
16 days ago

@PoM : I know. It’s more that when I say “every group can be racist” I usually hear a speech about how arabs hate frenchs and white people. While they actually tend to hate black and Romani (in France at least). I guess that here, I am not that likely to hear that tho.

Moogue
Moogue
16 days ago

@Diego

‘I don’t think reacting with apathy to the death of your abuser, even if it happens to be murder, means you’re “lost”. ‘

Well apathy is a passive thing- it implies no action. My issue isn’t with feeling things passively about deaths you’ve played no cause in. I agree, criticizing people for feeling the wrong thing is always fucked up and would be shaming. But actions? Actions are always fair game for criticism.

And again, I feel like we’re confusing what is ok on a personal level, which has “simple” factors, and things happening on a societal, which has complex factors.

“I’ve personally seen people die, whether from an accident or natural causes, and my reaction was not the same because circumstances and context greatly influence how we feel.”

Context including the type of death, how physically close you are to the actual death (videos of deaths online are so clinical that they don’t even count), and so on. But there’s a reason why I said (in-person) death as a verb, most people take time to die, and generally it’s not entirely a pleasure cruise for the person that it’s happening to, especially if it’s happening outside of proper medical(palliative) care. If someone, as a human, can override feeling empathy or mirroring when faced with all that, then yes, they are lost.

It’s normal to feel relief, or even elation, at death. I actually felt tremendous relief myself after witnessing them die. Not in a malicious way, or in a “death of an abuser” way. (My abuser is very much alive). Fact was, medicine couldn’t save them, they were in tremendous pain, they were suffocating, and now they were at peace, they were free. Emotions are kind of fucked up like that.

Now if I could just forget the sounds, and other minute details of their struggle, that would be nice.

“As a Latino I can confirm that we did have issues with chattel slavery and we still have a significant amount of racism, however never to the degree that is experienced in the United States.”

Eh, that’s debatable depending on which group we are speaking about at which time, although it’s probably fair to say that racism was always different in Latin America than it was in the British colonies.

The point is, that it was there, an ember waiting to be flamed. Ergo, Hispanics would have to be all sent to the gallows, as well, to prevent the possibility of society eventually reaching this point in time.

Last edited 16 days ago by Moogue
An Impish Pepper
An Impish Pepper
16 days ago

I don’t think you can honestly throw around the Reign of Terror as some sort of absolute measuring stick of evil without considering the regimes both before and after: the Ancien Regime, which participated in colonization and used chattel slavery to develop its colonies; and Napoleon’s empire, which restored chattel slavery after the Directory had abolished it. Nor do I think you can be internally consistent in saying “Nazis at least deserve a trial” when millions of Nazis have already been killed without going to trial and we all seem to regard that as an overall good thing.

I don’t think the people saying it is overall good if Trump and his supporters get sick and/or die are the ones trapped in black-and-white thinking.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
16 days ago

Anyone else catching the distinct whiff of “tankie” off Dali lately?

Diego
Diego
16 days ago

@Moogue

But there’s a reason why I said (in-person) death as a verb, most people take time to die, and generally it’s not entirely a pleasure cruise for the person that it’s happening to, especially if it’s happening outside of proper medical(palliative) care. If someone, as a human, can override feeling empathy or mirroring when faced with all that, then yes, they are lost.

Well then, I declare myself proudly lost, because I’ve been in the same room as my abuser when they died, and I did not feel empathy; and neither did some of their other victims. And I know they felt that way because they verbally expressed it after the person was gone.

In contrast, that was nothing in comparison to having witnessed an accident in person, where a man was ejected through the windshield of his SUV and killed upon impact with the pavement. That did shake me up and make me feel absolutely sick, even though I had absolutely no connection whatsoever to that man.

Lukas Xavier
Lukas Xavier
16 days ago

If you truly think that you could look into a human being’s eyes and watch them die from murder, then you are truly lost.

I keep hoping I’m going to come up with a way where, as the Doctor said: “Everyone lives!”

I wonder how many people will die, while I’m trying to come up with a way that saves the nazis, too.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
16 days ago

@An Impish Pepper : I don’t get your point. The French Revolution started on good sentiment, and got very fast into a super authoritarian, super into genocide mess, called the Terror. There have been worse time before (even if it’s not super clear how much worse the ancient regime was ; most french kings didn’t have absolute power apart from Louis XIV, and most didn’t do mass purge, except once again Louis XIV), and there were worse time after, but they aren’t relevant because nobody here is trying to get crowned king, emperor, or first consul.

Nazis, and to be honest most republicans nowaday, have to be treated like soldiers. If they die because they are in the way, so be it, but don’t execute them in masse for any reason. Once again, I don’t really see any inconsistency.

Also, and seriously : read up on terror. The general idea that the Napoleon Empire was worse is based on seriously shaky ground. The Terror was on par with the Khmer Rouge and the worse excess of stalinism, and in addition to the hundreds after hundred of public execution, there were also brutal ethnic oppression, in particular of supposedly-royalist regions. Sure, Napoleon regime sucked big time for a lot of people, and chattel slavery is very bad, but let it to humans to find way to be *way* worse than that.

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@Surplus

Anyone else catching the distinct whiff of “tankie” off Dali lately?

I don’t think Dali is a tankie. I think she’s very direct, yes, but I don’t think she’s an authoritarian communist and/or Stalin apologist, which are both prerequisites for being a tankie.

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

I’m about a day late on this, but it turns out Trump’s physician who ok’d him for all the experimental treatments isn’t an MD but is an osteopathic doctor.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/10/03/who-is-dr-sean-conley-physician-president-trump/3608901001/

I don’t actually know what that means for Trump, but maybe some here would interested to know.

Alan Robertshaw
16 days ago

@ naglfar

I don’t actually know what that means for Trump, but maybe some here would interested to know.

A brief bit of googling suggests that they do exactly the same syllabus as regular MDs but then an additional 400-500 hours of osteopathic stuff.

That does set off my woo alarm a bit; but as someone who thinks just about every ailment can be cured with a long walk and a nice cup of tea I’m probably being a bit hypocritical there.

DOs are licensed to carry out all the same activities and specialties as regular MDs; and I personally think there is something to be said for taking a holistic and prophylactic approach.

So whilst his media skills may be a bit suspect I don’t think he’s in Theodor Morell territory.

Tovius
Tovius
16 days ago

It looks like trump is has been released from Walter Reed just now.

Alan Robertshaw
16 days ago

@ tovius

Apparently it was just a short drive-by in a car to wave at the adoring fans; but he’s back in WR now.

That’s what I’m getting anyway. Who knows in these weird times?

An Impish Pepper
An Impish Pepper
16 days ago

Well, that’s my whole point, that you can’t just go around calling hypotheticals applied to fascists a slippery slope to *insert left authoritarian purge here* without making a lot of simplifying assumptions. (This is kind of similar to what right-wingers like doing. Wow, it turns out it’s really easy to make someone sound like a right-winger with the right framing.)

I don’t know that I would necessarily judge Napoleon as worse than Robespierre, but also, SLAVERY. I think people often don’t realize the sheer gravity and impact of SLAVERY when they try to compare it to bad things that leftists have done. Nobody’s trying to say that any of these situations are the most ideal. I just don’t think it’s so easy to assume that “hang[ing] every last slaveholder higher than Haman after the Civil War” would not have resulted in less death and misery overall. We only know for sure how shitty the reality we live in is, not how much more or less shitty other hypotheticals could have been.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
16 days ago

…Who knows in these weird times?

Eh, he’s a shit on every level and several levels we’d never heard of before, but … (and I know, there’s usually something bad after the but)

… arsehole’s a showman. A carny front. It might be the one thing he has that he can be honestly proud of – he does it well and plays his audience like a full on orchestra.

I’ll not take that from him.

Last edited 16 days ago by Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Tovius
Tovius
16 days ago

@ Alan Robertshaw

That does sound like the kind of stupid think trump would do.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
16 days ago

looks at this thread, sighs in disbelief

Yeah IDK why anyone would object to hanging every last slaveholder. These were people who bred and sold other human beings like animals, raped their captives as they saw fit, and all told carried out crimes against humanity on the same kind of level as the Holocaust. Millions died in the Atlantic passage alone, and the sheer generational trauma causes health problems for descendants of survivors. I don’t think most of us (white people) have a fucking clue about how bad it was TBH. We’re talking, like, the creepiest rapist/kidnapper shit you can imagine as a venerated institution. The system as a whole was plenty guilty (and still is, look up The New Jim Crow) but honestly? Any white adult of the slaveholding class who didn’t run screaming from that monstrosity absolutely gave up their right to live. I know y’all would say the same about Ariel Castro, don’t act like these people were any better just because their society coddled their evil.

Other white folks here: if murdering slaveholders makes you uncomfortable, but murdering Nazi bureaucrats doesn’t, I think you should take a good hard look at the feelings underlying that. Might be that you’re placing less value on the lives of Black people under slavery than those of (white) European Jews under Nazism, and that’s not okay at all.

And BTW re comparisons between the Holocaust and Southern slavery: don’t come at me. I am a Jew, thanks, and I will not stand for weaponization of the genocide against us to minimize genocides against others. Fuck that noise.

@Dalillama – I know we don’t always get along, but you have my solidarity on this. Seriously y’all, WTF.

Last edited 16 days ago by Cyborgette
Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@Alan Robertshaw

Who knows in these weird times?

I have a theory that his condition is a lot worse than his people are letting on. He’s received steroids and various experimental treatments that have risk that probably wouldn’t be given to someone with a less serious case. His doctor also admitted to lying about his use of oxygen, so who knows what else they’re covering up.

@Cyborgette

And BTW re comparisons between the Holocaust and Southern slavery: don’t come at me. I am a Jew, thanks, and I will not stand for weaponization of the genocide against us to minimize genocides against others. Fuck that noise.

It really annoys me when other Ashkenazic Jews try to draw this parallel. The same happens with regards to the Armenian Genocide being compared to the Holocaust, and that isn’t okay either.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
16 days ago

@Naglfar

We don’t get to weaponize our genocide to minimize others, that’s fucking final, sorry not sorry.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
16 days ago

@An Impish Pepper : so, since it apparently need to be developped : the Terror was created when a bunch of idealists thought killing every evildoer was better than due process. Then it degenerated because once you kill people for what they think without oversight, it degenerate quickly.

It happened several time. The Khmer rouge is another example, albeit I am much more comfortable about calling out my people than other countries.

If you don’t know your history, you’re bound to repeat it. No amount of “time was different at that time !” will change that.

So, once again, what is your point ? I guess it’s “I really, really want to hang people I think are evil”. Which is fine and dandy when you’re super sure that you know who is evil, and the history is full of people who thought they knew that and were horribly wrong.

And, to develop : we *know* that death penalty isn’t a good deterrent for anything. English people tried to inflict death penalty for shoplifting and it had pretty much no effect. Dictators all over the worlds try to dissuade political activism via death penalty, to pretty much no effect. To a less grim extend, France tried to bleed Germany dry to prevent it from being belligerant after WW1, and that was the stupidest thing ever done. While we can’t be sure, there’s a ton of indication it would pretty much that killing every slaver would have not have any good effect.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
16 days ago

@Cyborgette : and yet, you never even have come close to justify killing any slavers.

Your whole paragraph just mean “I hunger for blood of evil people”, and sorry not sorry either but I won’t accept that shit. Your need of vengeance isn’t a valid reason.

We talk of human life, not of bargaining chips or abstract concepts. I can understand killing people to prevent them doing harm, or if there’s a solid reason to think it will improve society. Pretending that killing all slavers would improve society is actually pretty fucking hard, because most clue point to “it won’t”.

Prophet309
Prophet309
16 days ago

I’m a little hesitant to weigh in, but wouldn’t someone who’s anti-death penalty be against mass executions—even of the worst people imaginable? Wouldn’t they say Ariel Castro did not, in fact, lose his right to life—at least in the sense he shouldn’t be killed by the government? Or am I confusing two separate issues?

I’m asking honestly—not trying to be sarcastic or anything.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
16 days ago

@Ohlmann

Oh I see we’ve come full circle to the “blood knights” thing again, how lovely.

Again, we’re talking about people who carried out mass rape, mass kidnapping, forced labor, mass physical torture and starvation, as an institution, that their wealth was build directly on top of. Such that almost every luxury they were used to in their lives was built on this abuse.

Killing people like that would absolutely fall under prevention, same as for Nazi war criminals. If they could live with themselves and justify that to themselves, if they’d already proved their willingness to carry out those atrocities, then they were absolutely too dangerous to keep alive, let alone allow to walk free with compensation (which is what happened with most of them).

Come on. This is not fucking hard.

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@Cyborgette

We don’t get to weaponize our genocide to minimize others, that’s fucking final, sorry not sorry.

I know. I was agreeing with you. I was trying to say we shouldn’t be comparing/minimizing genocides, sorry if that was unclear.

Last edited 16 days ago by Naglfar
Cyborgette
Cyborgette
16 days ago

@Naglfar

Ah gotcha, sorry. I’m… pretty angry and disappointed right now, and maybe not thinking that clearly.

rabid rabbit
rabid rabbit
16 days ago

The good news about Trump’s bizarre little jaunt is that it’s confirmed once and for all how little he cares about his Secret Service detail, which is useful as it suggests he’s not going to be able to hope for much help from them if he tries to stay in power illegally, just reinforcing the sense one gets from this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-seemed-to-defy-the-laws-of-science-and-disease-then-the-coronavirus-caught-up-with-him/2020/10/02/5b4c5232-04bf-11eb-897d-3a6201d6643f_story.html

Mrs Morley
Mrs Morley
16 days ago

@naglfar re DO vs MD.

In the UK I think they are more woo ish and less medical than in the US. In the US they are doctors and that’s about it. They went to a different medical school.

Anecdotally, the sports medicine doctor I saw is a DO. She’s also a professor at NYU’s medical school. An old friend is also a DO. She’s a respected pulmonologist.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
16 days ago

@Naglfar:

I don’t actually know what that means for Trump, but maybe some here would interested to know.

It means he’s swallowed his own Kool-Ade and is using the same kind of quack doctors he was using to promulgate his ridiculous ideas for coronavirus treatment before.

Which means he has quite likely hoist himself on his own petard.

Which he already had done by getting the virus in the first place after doing so much to aid its spread among others.

A petard within a petard … it’s petardception!

@Threp:

… arsehole’s a showman. A carny front. It might be the one thing he has that he can be honestly proud of – he does it well and plays his audience like a full on orchestra.

I’ll not take that from him.

I’m still waiting for the tape to surface of him saying “You gotta admit, I played this stinking country like a harp from Hell!”

I wonder if that would finally get his base to turn against him. With the reason being specifically that he called it “this stinking country”.

@rabid rabbit:

The good news about Trump’s bizarre little jaunt is that it’s confirmed once and for all how little he cares about his Secret Service detail

Yep. And now he’s in an exceptionally vulnerable state, utterly dependent on the kinds of experts and know-it-all types he and his Republican pals have been vilifying and defunding.

And people he’s abused for decades, some of them trusted people with access from within his inner circle (Ivanka for one), know it …

Nested petard #3?

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@Surplus

I wonder if that would finally get his base to turn against him. With the reason being specifically that he called it “this stinking country”.

Seeing as they didn’t have a problem when his inaugural address (which was 4 years ago but feels like it was decades ago) talked about “American carnage,” I feel like he could easily explain it away by saying he meant stinking with the smell of “antifas.”

Diego
Diego
16 days ago

@Cyborgette

We don’t get to weaponize our genocide to minimize others, that’s fucking final, sorry not sorry.

Fucking thank you for this. I’ve been kicked out of certain facebook tag groups because I refused to stop calling Trump’s concentration camps what they are, or calling what this administration is doing genocide, and a small but vocal minority of Jewish people took offense to that. The Holocaust was one of the worst instances of genocide in human history, but it wasn’t the only one and it wasn’t the biggest even (Native American genocide numbers are allegedly around 100 million).

As far as I’m concerned, the only argument I see as to why you cannot hang so many people is logistics, not morality (no real effective way of prosecuting and hanging all these people, and still being able to guarantee a Due Process to prevent the wrongly accused from suffering an injustice). The real issue behind these positions is legitimacy. I believe you can define violence in two broad categories: institutionalized versus subversive.

Institutionalized violence is violence used as a means to affirm, maintain or uphold social hierarchies; whereas subversive violence is violence used to either abolish or subvert said hierarchies.

If you accept that premise, you quickly come to the conclusion that everyone supports violence, even if they claim they don’t.The reason why people get away with claiming that they don’t is because institutionalized violence is so normalized that it might as well be invisible. Whether it involves detaining a criminal or enforcing property rights, institutionalized violence is seen as legitimate, and so it slips beneath our notice.

And mind you, institutionalized violence is not always legal, but it gets the benefit of being perceived as legal because it is upholding the power structure that benefits the majority ethnic group. Thus, even as pervasive and horrid as police abuses are, they will be deemed as legitimate, so long as they are used to disenfranchise minorities.

In contrast, subversive violence is not seen as such, even when it involves the single most basic forms of self defense or survival. We are literally talking about a group of people who not only talk about enslaving and/or exterminating groups due to their ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender, religion, etc; but also have been dutifully carrying out the actions to materialize such plans, aided and abetted by government institutions, and yet fighting a war with them or giving them the death penalty so that they won’t endanger others is considered to be just as barbaric.

People think inaction has no intrinsic moral value, but when your inaction is enabling Nazis to kill unimpeded, then that couldn’t be further from the truth. When a group of people is committed to exterminating others, and when they have decided that they will fight to the death to continue carrying out such plans, then allowing them to live is having indirect responsibility for the graveyards they fill.

The only reason people don’t grasp it is because Nazism, as abhorrent as it is, is merely the most extreme form of institutionalized violence. And, whether in the conscious or subconcious of the vast majority of people, it still has a slight bigger veneer of legitimacy than subversive violence.

Moogue
Moogue
16 days ago

@Impish Pepper

“when millions of Nazis have already been killed without going to trial and we all seem to regard that as an overall good thing.”

Do we all regard this as a good thing, or as an neutral thing, or another thing? I’m just wondering how we *all* seem to feel.

So millions of Nazis have been killed, and yet here we are, with fascism and racism gaining strength every day. So I guess killing millions of Nazis alone isn’t enough, after all.

Which was my point. Killing will never be enough, since the problem is insidious and societal. And we’d have to kill everyone to achieve it.

Which brings us to the problem of defining who is a Nazi, and how many Nazi beliefs a person has to hold to be considered a Nazi, and most importantly who gets to define who gets to live, and who gets to die.

@Lukas Xavier

“wonder how many people will die, while I’m trying to come up with a way that saves the nazis, too.

And I wonder how many people will die while people fantasize about Nazis dying, instead of actually doing something productive with their time?

@Diego

“Well then, I declare myself proudly lost,

Sorry if I seem to be coming from a sanctimonious place. You seem like a really good person. Thank you for being empathetic before.

My biggest concern is simply not becoming like the abuser. Because this is how most of them think. They think they’re 100% right, they think that they’re the true victim, they focus their blame on others, they 100% convince themselves that their victim of blame is hurting them, and therefore deserves whatever comes. They lack empathy, and have all the reasons why the shouldn’t have it.

And I don’t want any part of that.

Valentin
Valentin
16 days ago

Maybe think more about how to free all the people from american concentration camps where they are poisoned with insect killer and have hysterectomy forced on them, than if we should kill nazis. Nazis are a direct threat. Us government is fascist and it is a direct threat. I agree, it is only about logistics. Revolution must be violent when the opressor is violent.

And I wonder how many people will die while people fantasize about Nazis dying, instead of actually doing something productive with their time?

Maybe this is surprising for you, but people can think about and care about and do more than one thing at a time. The people you accuse of fantasy are the ones in the street protesting and fighting to stop the deaths. It is not a fantastic to kill nazis, it is NECESSARY.

Tovius
Tovius
16 days ago

@Impish Pepper

No one, not even the absolute dregs of humanity, should be executed without due process. The French Terror and many other events throughout history shows us what happens when we do not. Even nazi war criminals were tried before they were hanged. (And your line about millions of nazis being killed without trail is highly misleading. Those were casualties of war, that’s not the same thing)

Diego
Diego
16 days ago

@Moogue

My biggest concern is simply not becoming like the abuser. Because this is how most of them think. They think they’re 100% right, they think that they’re the true victim, they focus their blame on others, they 100% convince themselves that their victim of blame is hurting them, and therefore deserves whatever comes. They lack empathy, and have all the reasons why the shouldn’t have it.

For a while that was my biggest concern, however there is a lot of nuance and context to that. Ultimate what an abuser seeks is control over the lives of others, whether this is achieved through the exercise of physical, emotional or financial leverage, or through manipulation and playing the victim.

So the litmus test to decide on whether or not you are behaving like an abuser, and whether or not you are justified in hurting someone, it all comes down to your motives. Are you trying to gain control over that person, or are you trying to stop them from hurting others? If you hurt them and they did stop, would you then be able to walk away once you’ve achieved said goal, or would your mind wander back to that person in a desperate bid to see how else you could one up them?

Moogue
Moogue
16 days ago

@Valentin

“It is not a fantastic to kill nazis, it is NECESSARY.

I’m not going to further discuss your point about broad killing being necessary, because here it’s moot. Fantasies can be necessary or unnecessary, but they are still imaginary. And imaginary things save exactly zero lives.

Their time would be better spent focusing on doing something positive and concrete, like continuing with doing their thing raising awareness, fighting, protesting, etc.

Maybe this is surprising for you, but people can think about and care about and do more than one thing at a time.

Sorta, but not really.

@Diego

As far as I’m concerned, the only argument I see as to why you cannot hang so many people is logistics, not morality (no real effective way of prosecuting and hanging all these people, and still being able to guarantee a Due Process to prevent the wrongly accused from suffering an injustice).

But there’s the rub, you can’t seperate the morality of something from the logistics of it. Even brushing aside the morality of killing people en mass, Trump supporters aren’t NPCs in a video game that can be killed without dramatic and unpredictable consequences. These are people who have lives and families. For example, they may be the sole caretakers of sick relatives. They may have kids. They may be giving support to their grown child as they try to escape an abusive relationship. Or so on.

At the very least, they may be assholes that will go out in public without masks and cough everywhere if they were to get COVID, as people here wished.

“it all comes down to your motives.

But that comes down to my earlier concern, I don’t think that human beings as a whole can ever be 100% sure of their motives.

Abusers do seem to be a good example of a group that seems to be particularly bad at this. I don’t think that I’ve heard of many abusers that don’t think that they are wonderful people, and that their motives are as pure as driven snow. Many don’t seem to have very much awareness of their entitlement, and their need to dominate and control, even if they do have a little bit of clarity here and there.

Last edited 16 days ago by Moogue
Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
15 days ago

I honestly can’t believe that we’re debating whether it’s OK to mass-kill people who have been accused of being Nazis but haven’t been proven to be anything.

Is this really WHTM? What happened to the comments policy?

It is not a fantastic to kill nazis, it is NECESSARY.

That elides the trial that has to take place to prove that any given person is a Nazi and that that person has committed crimes deserving of death. No random person gets to pick and choose who lives and who dies based on gut feeling or whatever it is that we’re talking about here to identify the Nazis.

Yes, Nazis will kill their current target du jour without a trial or any kind of due process. That doesn’t meant that we, as non-Nazis, are OK doing the same thing in return. We don’t let Nazis set the floor for our behavior. We are better than that. We are civilized people who don’t just run around pointing fingers and saying, ‘LOOK A NAZI’ and then murdering that person outright.

Again. What Nazis do is not OK, and it doesn’t become OK if non-Nazis take up the same tactics. Nazis are not the exemplar that we should emulate.

Contrapangloss
Contrapangloss
15 days ago

I’m popping in to second PoM’s “WTH is going on?!”

I do not have the mental capacity to deal with whatever the heck is happening here right now, but yikes.

nobody
nobody
15 days ago

What a mess.

1. Executing Nazis? Yes…after a trial. See, Nuremberg

2. Killing all slave owners without trial? How about trying them for treason and hanging the guilty ones?
The rest? Confiscate land and assets. That’s what SHOULD have happened. That it didn’t still baffles me to this day.

3. Some very white people from privileged backgrounds have an interesting habit of mocking and gaslighted people targeted IRL by racism… while at the same time going online and MAKING A BIG SHOW OF ANGRY WOKENESS.

I say “interesting”, but it’s more fake ass hypocrisy, with shades of appropriation. This mentality can drive spewing extremist veiws like “kill them all” with no nuance whatsoever.
(Are they including children who would inherit? Do we want to know?)

Last edited 15 days ago by nobody
Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
15 days ago

It wasn’t that long ago that “I hope you step on a lego” was the most violent thing we wished on people.

Valentin
Valentin
15 days ago

Somebody already mentioned nazis as casualty of war this is what I mean when I say necessary. If we are at the stage where nazis stand trial for their crimes, that is a long time in the future and I hope actually that we do not have to make another Nuremberg trials or similar. What is happening right now is violent fascist oppression, police murdering peaceful protestors and Christian organisations raising thousands of dollars for murderer Kyle Rittenhouse. Violent resistance is necessary against violent oppression. There are concentration camps where people have medical procedures to sterelise them and children are separated and die. They have found mass graves in the desert. Trucks filled with children. This situation is escalating very fast, that is what I mean when I say necessary. Violent resistance is necessary. I do not mean that Nazis should not stand trial if possible I just mean that it is not always possible. I believe that if we are at a stage where we are making trials for hundreds or thousands of people accused of nazis, then we already failed in resistance. The protests of this year in america are actually a very good example to countries like britian, which are also sliding to fascism. This energy should continue, people should realise the state and the police are not on their side and they cannot trust the old system of voting and government. Not all people can or should be in the violent resistance, but I dont judge the people who are, their actions are the actions of their ancestors in resistances of history in Europe against the nazis.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
15 days ago

The protests of this year in america are actually a very good example to countries like britian, which are also sliding to fascism. This energy should continue, people should realise the state and the police are not on their side and they cannot trust the old system of voting and government.

The protests this year in America have been peaceful. It’s been provocateurs and plainclothes cops and amoral opportunists who have been responsible for the window breaking and looting. It’s been the cops who brought in tanks and tear gas. Protests have been peaceful.

When you say “this energy should continue” and use the American protests as an example, that’s fine, but when you expand out to “and we should all turn violent today” you’re losing the plot. You literally cannot fight the state on its own terms. You can’t go up against the National Guard and win. Even if every protester had an AR-15 and twenty clips of ammo and was willing to go down in a hail of bullets, you wouldn’t win.

You talk about killing Nazis like you’re the one in control and you get to choose who is a Nazi and who isn’t. That isn’t the reality, on multiple levels. At best, at best, you’re talking about going terrorist. Terrorist groups don’t win. They don’t get what they want. It’s a counterproductive tactic, not to mention the horrific moral problems. Peaceful demonstrations and civil disobedience are ultimately more successful, so if what you want is to change the system, going terrorist on the grounds that: Nazis is not going to get you what you want.

Not all people can or should be in the violent resistance, but I dont judge the people who are, their actions are the actions of their ancestors in resistances of history in Europe against the nazis.

The successful history of Europe against the Nazis was one of state organized violence. Armies won the day, not terror cells. There is zero chance that ordinary people are going to form an effective army that can successfully overthrow the actual, trained, state-backed army. That’s so silly I don’t even know what to do with it.

Cindy
Cindy
15 days ago

When we go out to get the Nazis, can we deal with the TERFs at the same time? 😊

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
15 days ago

Weighing in on the DO vs MD – as others have said, they’re doctors here in the States. Most DO physicians I’ve known have been in sports medicine or osteo, but that is probably more due to the region I’m in than anything else. I’d see a DO if need be, though my current family doctor is an MD.

Honestly, I don’t care so much about DO vs MD as I do about the specialty. I want to be hearing from an infectious diseases specialist, not a GI or radiologist or whoever else the Trump administration wants to parade out in a white coat.

Valentin
Valentin
15 days ago

PoM

By energy I mean I like that americans realise now that they cant trust their government to make change for them or support their interest. They realise that they must take power for themselves. Other nations people dont realise this yet.
What I am talking about is revolution, not terrorism. In Euromaidan, when the government started murdering people from the rooftops, people fought back against them. It is possible to use these tactics for change. Yes the revolution of dignity was taken over by basratds like Poroshenko, but the power of the people to change things was very clear to see. This kind of revolution can be successful. And civilians armed themselves and went to the boarder to defend against invasion, that was ordinary people. I am seeing the same thing in the protester in america, it is the same energy, the same realisation. At least it is similar, becuase I know that the USA and UA are different in a lot of ways.

If the government or nazis are violent to you, violent resistance is justified, for self defense, to protect people who cant fight or protest with you.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
15 days ago

What I am talking about is revolution, not terrorism.

In today’s world, a distinction without a difference. There is just no possible way for non-state actors to violently oppose first-world state actors without resorting to terror tactics. When the police are militarized and the military has weapons that can kill thousands in one hit, you can’t stand up to them, violently, without resorting to terror. You can certainly stand up to them non-violently and win, but not with violence. The police and military are too well armed and technology has run away from the ordinary citizen.

Yes the revolution of dignity was taken over by basratds like Poroshenko

You’re making my argument for me.

If the government or nazis are violent to you, violent resistance is justified, for self defense, to protect people who cant fight or protest with you.

Self-defense against someone literally at my door with a gun trying to kill me is one thing. It’s a completely different matter if I am the one leaving the premises with a gun because I want to murder Nazis, or people who I think are Nazis anyway, we haven’t bothered with a trial or any other kind of fact-finding so we’re just making assumptions that anyone with a MAGA hat deserves a shotgun to the face.

And that’s what you’re talking about before, after all: mass-murder of anyone we can plausibly accuse of being a Nazi, because it’s JUSTIFIED. Except that it is not actually justified. And it’s not like we are in the position of power here able to mete out life and death at a whim. So for both moral and practical reasons, the mass-killing-of-Nazis that wayyyy too many people on this board right now are up for, should not and will not happen. It’s not only ridiculous to talk about, like YOU’RE on the death squad going door-to-door and not the people on the other side from you, but it is not a very good look for anyone here. We’re supposed to be better than the Nazis, y’all. I will say it again: Nazis are not the standard to which we aspire.

@Cindy

When we go out to get the Nazis, can we deal with the TERFs at the same time?

We’re talking about putting people up against the wall here, so I don’t think your rosy-cheeked happy face is the appropriate response to this discussion. I don’t like trans-exclusives very much but I don’t think literal extrajudicial murder is the appropriate thing to wish on them, and I’m pretty put off by the fact that you put a smiley face after that wish.

An Impish Pepper
An Impish Pepper
15 days ago

@POM

We don’t let Nazis set the floor for our behavior. We are better than that. We are civilized people who don’t just run around pointing fingers and saying, ‘LOOK A NAZI’ and then murdering that person outright.

I think this is basically where the disconnect is here. “We” in reality are far from civilized. Even if we aren’t actively committing violence directly, we all benefit from the continuing violence of neocolonialism, even in the most progressive countries with social democracy and everything. And I don’t think it’s fair to say that this one specific type of violence is special because it can’t easily be ignored.

In truth, I really don’t like talking about going to war or people deserving bad things to happen to them. That said, I’m also not going to shy away from calling what are effectively acts of war for what they are. The U.S.’s response to the COVID pandemic alone has killed over a dozen times more people in a shorter span of time than were killed by the French Terror. Early on, conservatives were talking about sacrificing what was projected to be literally millions of people, like over half the deaths caused by the Soviet famines, to “get over it” so “the economy” could move on. I, like I’m sure everybody else here, know people who could potentially end up jailed and/or killed in a hypothetical large-scale movement to overthrow fascism and the systems that allow it to take hold. I would rather not talk about people being jailed or killed in the hopes that more people will be prevented from being jailed or killed. It’s just that we probably don’t live in that reality.

Peaceful demonstrations and civil disobedience are ultimately more successful

That’s not the conclusion I get when I read history. I keep waiting for the detailed plan informed by history that will get rid of fascism at the root, never to take power again, and doesn’t end up with people being dragged into fights to the death. That’s not the same thing as a Nazi or manospherian wishing for the deaths of people they don’t like.

Valentin
Valentin
15 days ago

You’re making my argument for me.

Only if you dont actually know what was wrong about Poroshenko, or what the revolution of dignity achieved.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
15 days ago

“We” in reality are far from civilized.

I reckon that depends on who you’re including in the “we.” When I say that “we” are better than Nazis, I’m obviously not including Nazis in that? And I’m not including Nazi-adjacents and sympathizers in that either. I thought that was apparent but maybe not and I should be clearer.

Even if we aren’t actively committing violence directly, we all benefit from the continuing violence of neocolonialism, even in the most progressive countries with social democracy and everything.

The solution to this is not to go out and murder everyone we think is a Nazi.

That said, I’m also not going to shy away from calling what are effectively acts of war for what they are. The U.S.’s response to the COVID pandemic alone has killed over a dozen times more people in a shorter span of time than were killed by the French Terror.

If your answer to this (and it was undeniably outrageous, and remains so) is to start up some death squads, then we have nothing in common.

That’s not the conclusion I get when I read history.

Okay. I can point to at least two movements without any research where peaceful protests and civil disobedience led to improvement: the Civil Rights movement, and the Indian independence movement. Can you name any successful violent uprisings against first-world state actors in modern times? I’m not talking about the American Revolutionary War, which was fought with muskets on both sides; I’m talking about a modern-equipped military power being successfully overthrown by people with civilian weaponry.