Categories
coronavirus trump

Trump’s got the ‘rona: Open thread

Don’t worry, Mr. President, it’s just a big hoax

Well. how about THAT for an October Surprise?

I would point out the ironies here but there really aren’t any. It’s basically the opposite of irony: Dude downplays the danger, doesn’t wear a mask and hangs out with other people not wearing masks, all because he thinks he’s a genetically superior human who’s immune to disease. Well, turns out he isn’t.

I have no idea how this is going to play out. This tweet pretty much sums it up:

Yep.

Open thread!

Follow me on Twitter.

Send tips to dfutrelle at gmail dot com.

We Hunted the Mammoth relies entirely on readers like you for its survival. If you appreciate our work, please send a few bucks our way! Thanks!

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

224 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
20 days ago

@Alan Robertshaw:

Also, a big argument for swing voters or ‘moderate’ republicans is that Trump is a uniquely terrible man. A replacement might not carry the same baggage; or tempt non-voters to turn out this time.

On the other hand, Trump might have ruined his base for “regular” Republican candidates, and if Trump wasn’t on the ticket most of them would stay home.

Naglfar
Naglfar
20 days ago

@Surplus

On the other hand, Trump might have ruined his base for “regular” Republican candidates, and if Trump wasn’t on the ticket most of them would stay home.

That’s what I had figured. Pence doesn’t have the charismatic cult leader nature that Trump has, and while he sucks, I don’t think he’d win re-election or have the same degree of popular support. Most anti-Trump folks would also be turned off of Pence by association and a fair number of pro-Trump types might not care about Pence enough to vote for him.

Naglfar
Naglfar
20 days ago

A mix of Trump Covid news from the last hour:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/2020/10/03/trump-covid-live-updates/#link-JV5XHGUF3FG2XJ5US7C6VKODAA
TL;DR is that Chris Christie has it too, Mitch McConnell has cancelled all senate votes for the next 2 weeks, and Trump’s physician isn’t giving straight answers.

Alan Robertshaw
20 days ago

@ surplus

Hmm, Trump may have shifted the local Overton Window so much that Pence isn’t right wing enough for the base? Interesting hypothesis. You may well be right. If it gets down to that let’s hope so.

In general Trump news, this is apparently Mark “I really should check if there’s still a live mic” Meadows take on things:

“The President’s vitals over last 24 hours were very concerning and the next 48 hours will be critical in terms of his care. We are still not on a clear path to a full recovery.”

Supposedly Trump was having trouble breathing on Friday so he did end up on oxygen; notwithstanding that doctor’s dancing round the issue.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
20 days ago

Tovius wrote, on Trump’s diagnosis:

About fucking time. He’s been avoiding this for long enough.

I’ve been thinking about this.

Back in the spring, I thought it’d likely take a long time for him to catch Covid, if it ever actually happened. He seemed reasonably well protected, in terms of having the people around him tested extensively – that’s obviously a privilege ordinary Americans don’t have. Even now, probably only around 10% of Americans have been infected thus far, and honestly, I didn’t expect it to be much more than that at this point. He wasn’t that likely to be among the first ones.

I suspected he was probably deeply oblivious and unappreciative of how much the various government agencies (and perhaps even his own campaign) were working to keep him safe. Now, recently we learned that he was actually privately quite aware of how dangerous Covid is. Or then again, maybe not, as suggested by some other tapes with that same reporter. Recently, his social behavior seems to have been even more reckless than I expected.

In any case, I’d hesitate to say that this infection was entirely predictable and a long time coming. These things are highly random in pattern. A sensible administration would have very likely avoided this through the whole election year – not so much by using better masking and better contact testing, but mostly by better social distancing and by not letting the virus run so rampant in general population. Still, you could always get unlucky.

Naglfar
Naglfar
20 days ago

@Lumipuna

A sensible administration would have very likely avoided this through the whole election year – not so much by using better masking and better contact testing, but mostly by better social distancing and by not letting the virus run so rampant in general population.

Under a sensible administration this would have been contained in the spring and we’d be in a similar place to other countries that handled it better, like Vietnam which has had less than 40 deaths. We probably wouldn’t be that low because the US is a bigger country than Vietnam and in a different geopolitical situation, but it would definitely be less than 200,000 people under a better government.

At the very least, Trump deserves whatever he gets from this.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
20 days ago

@Nagflar : I don’t care that “it’s not a good look”. It’s *EXTREMELY* common, and a real problem everyone need to have in back of his mind all the time. I think you’re very, very hopeful in saying it’s rare. And the confidence given by that belief is dangerous.

Being oppressed don’t make you resistant to being an asshole. Being morally upright don’t make you resistant. Everyone have to ask himself all the time “Am I the baddie ?”, and be aware they could be the baddie without realizing it yet. You should alway inform every of your moral judgement with a way to mitigate damage if you’re catastrophically wrong.

Naglfar
Naglfar
20 days ago

@Ohlmann
I get your point, but it sounds a lot like you’re saying that it’s the fault of minority groups that they’re getting oppressed because some sell their people out. Candace Owens spreads racist propaganda against other Black people, does that mean that Black people are responsible for racism?

Diego
Diego
20 days ago

@Alan

Hmm, Trump may have shifted the local Overton Window so much that Pence isn’t right wing enough for the base? Interesting hypothesis. You may well be right. If it gets down to that let’s hope so.

I wouldn’t view this as a bonus, considering that Trump is a Nazi but at the same time an incompetent buffoon. With Joe and the Democrats trying to haul the country back to the status quo, that allowed the rise of fascism in the first place, there is a strong probability that whoever clinches the Republican nomination in 2024 will be yet another Nazi. Some people are speculating this might be Tucker Carlson and, given his propensity towards appropriating the class struggle rhetoric, he might even score some points among liberals.

If Joe and Pelosi waste the next four years supporting their donors, instead of rolling back Trump’s policies and, better yet, implementing actual policies aimed at helping the working class; then they’ll be sitting ducks come 2024 and we’re going to get an even shittier sequel considering we could have an intelligent fascist rise to power.

@Lumipuna

In any case, I’d hesitate to say that this infection was entirely predictable and a long time coming. These things are highly random in pattern. A sensible administration would have very likely avoided this through the whole election year – not so much by using better masking and better contact testing, but mostly by better social distancing and by not letting the virus run so rampant in general population. Still, you could always get unlucky.

Trump has always been a notorious germophobe. He might have joked around with the masks but behind closed doors he was having everyone in his staff tested each and every day to make sure he didn’t get it. I’m impressed he actually managed to get infected despite all of those precautions. Then again, you need to have precaution and luck to avoid the virus each and every day. The virus only needs to be lucky once.

Big Titty Demon
Big Titty Demon
20 days ago

@ Discussion of whether or not to genocide Trump supporters

Hey what? Is that a real discussion? Even when we fought actual Nazis, the supporters were not genocided. There was specifically an effort made to avoid a Treaty of Versailles situation and let Germany recovery, to avoid more war. The EU formed to avoid more war. Germany was not rid of all its Nazis in an ideological cleansing. Even at the Nuremberg trials only the worst of the worst got it, as a symbolic closing of the war.

I’m not saying let Republican or Trump policy makers get away without prosecution or run amok with legislation, but calling for a genocide of people who support Trump? For reasons you cannot know and may very well be uneducated as shit but not malicious? How are you not falling afoul of the comments policy?

Hambeast
Hambeast
20 days ago

Naglfar – If (and this is my fondest wish) Trump and his family get locked up, my hope would be that Barron could be placed with his cousin Mary (Trump’s niece, the one who wrote the recent tell-all book.) She’s a psychologist. That whole statement is wishful thinking, though, since Trump probably hates Mary nowadays.

My dental hygienist told me last week that she thinks that the virus was deliberate on the part of the Chinese government. I did my best to dissuade her of that notion by telling her about some of my military training (in Nuclear/Biological/Chemical weapons) and she appeared to really think about what I said.

One of the main reasons I said I hope no one (including the current administration) gets sick or dies is because they are all so cavalier about not spreading it. It even occurred to me that Trump might have been trying to infect Biden and his crew. At the very least, it would not surprise me.

Dalillama
20 days ago

@Big Titty Demon
Point the first: you are drastically misunderstanding and misusing the concept of genocide, in a frankly offensive fashion. Fascists going to a well-deserved appointment with the gallows is the precise opposite of genocide, as fascists will always commit genocide if they’re allowed to live.
Point the second: We just had an extended discussion of all the reasons it doesn’t fucking matter why any given individual chose fascism, because once they’ve climbed on board the genocide train they are the enemy of all decent people.
Point the third: If we’d gone through and hanged every last slaveholder higher than Haman after the Civil War, we’d be a lot closer to being a worthwhile society than we have heretofore managed.
Point the Fourth: the same goes for WWII. Denazification should have been carried out with a guillotine. We should all keep in mind the wise dictum of Lyudmila Pavlichenko: “If you don’t kill [fascists] at once, you’ll have no end of trouble.”

Naglfar
Naglfar
20 days ago

@Diego

Some people are speculating this might be Tucker Carlson and, given his propensity towards appropriating the class struggle rhetoric, he might even score some points among liberals.

The main group of liberals that would go for Tucker would be Tulsi Gabbard fans, they had no qualms when she was on his show and they appear to get on well. He also could get some of the “dirtbag left” who like his class reductionism while being rich á la Chapo Trap House. If he said a few words about “idpol” CTH stans would vote for him.

This is also why we need to investigate everyone connected to Trump thoroughly and make sure that Trump and his cronies face justice. Otherwise the GOP will only be emboldened as they were when Bush got away.

I’m impressed he actually managed to get infected despite all of those precautions.

It was probably at his rallies. Shouting can make particles go further, aerosol transmission is still being investigated, and he doesn’t wear a mask at rallies and none of his fans do either.

@Hambeast
Of the Trump family members Mary seems the least evil, so maybe she could take Barron in that event. I don’t know much about Barron and if/how he could be deprogrammed after growing up as Donald’s son.

Last edited 20 days ago by Naglfar
Diego
Diego
20 days ago

@Big Titty Demon

How are you not falling afoul of the comments policy?

Because no one called for the genocide of Trump supporters. Ohlmann simply engaged in bad faith arguments and a strawman fallacy. My initial statement was that I wouldn’t bat an eye if all 60 million of his supporters caught COVID. Also that wishing Nazis dead was the only morally correct choice.

Wishing for the death of someone is an entirely different camp than trying to entice, incite, organize, and/or call for genocide. The only reason I’ve addressed the term “genocide” is because Ohlmann was incorrectly using it as if it could be applied to Nazis.

Also, regarding your point about people being ignorant and misinformed versus being outright malicious, I’d argue that intent can matter up to a certain extent. It cannot and should not be used as a blank check, especially in situations such as these that involve constant, pervasive and incremental crimes against humanity.

Last edited 20 days ago by Diego
Lukas Xavier
Lukas Xavier
20 days ago

…wishing Nazis dead was the only morally correct choice.

There’s my third tattoo. Now, where to put it…

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
20 days ago

I have found the death odds for 70 year old people. It’s 11.6%, or in other words Trump have overwhelmingly good odds to survive that, for any who still wondered. I was pretty sure of that, but it’s better with actual figures.

(the COVID is dangerous because a combination of middling mortality with extremely fast speed. Truly lethal disease like Ebola or rabies don’t spread too well, in no small part because carriers die before spreading to other. On the other hand, it’s somewhat likely that at least one person in the White House cluster die, since there’s like 15+ people infected)

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
20 days ago

@Dalilama : your point about slavers might be true or not, but it’s entirely insuffisant to justify killing any slavers. Once again, there’s three reasons for that :

  • killing that many people have other side effect that can cause a lot of trouble
  • justifying mass killing over any reason is too risky, because that’s the express highway to the french Terror
  • you have 0 actual idea of if it would have improved anything. The concept that killing anyone that do X discourage X have been disproved time and again. If it don’t work for shoplifting or political activism, why would it work here ?

That kind of rhetoric leave me extremely cold, because it don’t stand up to thinking about it 3 seconds. Being incendiary and extrem don’t make your argument more convincing.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
20 days ago

Trump may well survive and his odds are good, but he’s off the campaign trail for a while and that’s not nothing! This is a critical period in the election cycle and Trump is out for the count.

Naglfar
Naglfar
20 days ago

@Ohlmann

I have found the death odds for 70 year old people. It’s 11.6%

I don’t know if that accounts for heart disease, which Trump appears to have given that he has high levels of plaque in his coronary artery. So his odds might be a little worse.

@PoM

Trump may well survive and his odds are good, but he’s off the campaign trail for a while and that’s not nothing! This is a critical period in the election cycle and Trump is out for the count.

Does that really affect his base though? They are cult like in their devotion to him, and I doubt there are many fence voters.

Alan Robertshaw
20 days ago

Does that really affect his base though?

I find myself reminded of the bit in The Man Who Would Be King; when Sean Connery gets cut and his worshippers realise he isn’t a god after all. I wonder if some of Trump’s virus-denying sycophants might now waver?

Alan Robertshaw
20 days ago

@ diego

I don’t want you thinking I’m being rude by not addressing your post. You raise some great points that have really got me thinking. It’s just my response would be a big stream of consciousness thing.

Diego
Diego
20 days ago

@Naglfar

Even so, I would think his odds of survival are greater given that he’s the president and doctors know more about the disease now than they did six months ago. Nothing is off the table for him and they will do whatever is in their power to keep him alive and well. This is still likely to shorten his lifespan but I severely doubt he will die from it.

@Dalillama and Ohlmann

killing that many people have other side effect that can cause a lot of trouble

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with Dalillama’s views, there is such a thing as “Colony Colapse”, whereupon if enough members of a society die or disappear, the whole thing collapses because there aren’t enough people to replace their jobs.

In modern society this could range from people manufacturing, storing, delivering life-saving medication (such as insulin) to less trivial things, such as road maintenance or such.

Now, this doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t hang or imprison Nazis after a fascist regime implodes. The most realistic way to go about delivering justice would be to send the leaders to the gallows, and the pundits spreading the propaganda straight to jail.

In terms of criminal justice there is no such thing as a retroactive punishment, but moments such as these should be an exception. Hate Speech (strictly defined as speech designed to incite hatred or violence against vulnerable groups) should be criminalized, and everyone who engaged in it should be criminally prosecuted.

Everyone from Stefan Molyneux to Tucker Carlson should be in jail for spreading Nazi propaganda. Making sure Hate Speech is criminalized is really the most effective way to prevent fascism from rising ever again.

Last edited 20 days ago by Diego
Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
20 days ago

Eh, I’m pretty sure that was Patrick Stewart, and the episode title was “Who Watches the Watchers”. 🙂

Alan Robertshaw
20 days ago

@ diego

You probably already know this, but at Yalta, Churchill favoured just using an Act of Attainder to sentence the top Nazis to death. It was actually Roosevelt and Stalin that argued for a public trial. Britain supplied Albert Pierrepoint though.

The colony collapse idea (although not named as such) was part of the reasoning behind how the ‘de-nazification’ process was organised. Hence categorisations like ‘young follower’ etc. Then of course you get into things like prepping for the Cold War and Operation Paperclip.

Your ‘retrospective justice’ point was raised at Nuremberg; especially in the “Judges’ Trial”; but the way it was determined was by applying common law principles (in the technical sense of the phrase) to establish it wasn’t actually retrospective.

(Bizarrely the US Justice Dept are currently running an argument in an art restitution case that totally goes against that well established principle.)

Last edited 20 days ago by Alan Robertshaw
Naglfar
Naglfar
20 days ago

@Alan Robertshaw

I wonder if some of Trump’s virus-denying sycophants might now waver?

It’s possible, but I think they’ll just rationalize it away. I’ve already heard them claiming that it’s a deep state assassination attempt (while simultaneously being a hoax) or that it’s a cover for a secret mission. At this point, no matter what happens they are convinced he is a god and will rationalize away any evidence otherwise.

@Diego

Even so, I would think his odds of survival are greater given that he’s the president and doctors know more about the disease now than they did six months ago.

For sure, I was just pointing out one factor amid a sea of many influencing his outcome.

Now, this doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t hang or imprison Nazis after a fascist regime implodes. The most realistic way to go about delivering justice would be to send the leaders to the gallows, and the pundits spreading the propaganda straight to jail.

This seems a much better idea than mass executions. Collective punishment is forbidden by the Geneva Convention, so it seems better to instead put the leaders and propagandists on trial rather than attempting to try and prosecute millions of people.

Making sure Hate Speech is criminalized is really the most effective way to prevent fascism from rising ever again.

In the US, I think the only way to effectively do this would be through a SCOTUS precedent or constitutional amendment given that it has to do with the First Amendment.

Alan Robertshaw
20 days ago

@ diego

Everyone from Stefan Molyneux to Tucker Carlson should be in jail for spreading Nazi propaganda. Making sure Hate Speech is criminalized is really the most effective way to prevent fascism from rising ever again

These might interest you. They’re the judgments in the so-called ‘media’ trials at the ICC in relation to Rwanda. Illustrate your point.

https://unictr.irmct.org/sites/unictr.org/files/case-documents/ictr-99-52/indictments/en/000413.pdf

https://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain/opendocpdf.pdf?reldoc=y&docid=4935248c2

Last edited 20 days ago by Alan Robertshaw
Diego
Diego
20 days ago

@Alan

Interesting. I studied Civil Law so I’m not too familiar with Common Law principles and how they mirror the former. Though I have seen and read far too many times judges interpret guiding principles in such a way which toes the line of what could be considered constitutional.

I do see a case to punish the spread of Nazi propaganda, by applying principles, but it has its limits. What burns me is that the UN did not criminalize Hate Speech there and then, when it had the chance.

Alan Robertshaw
20 days ago

@ naglfar

Collective punishment is forbidden by the Geneva Convention

It’s only prohibited where people who didn’t themselves actually commit an offence are penalised. If a population as whole ‘aids, abets, counsels, or procures’ others to commit an offence, they too can be held accountable without breaching the Conventions.

“No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible.”

Naglfar
Naglfar
20 days ago

@Alan Robertshaw

It’s only prohibited where people who didn’t themselves actually commit an offence are penalised. If a population as whole ‘aids, abets, counsels, or procures’ others to commit an offence, they too can be held accountable without breaching the Conventions.

So, assuming we don’t kill fascists for the reasons Diego mentioned, would it be possible to place some other sanction upon Trump voters?

Alan Robertshaw
20 days ago

@ diego

I studied Civil Law

That’s one of the reasons the British team lead the prosecutions and common law rules were applied to the proceedings (in deference to civil law there was a multi-judge bench who determined the facts rather than a jury)

But in common law, offences needn’t actually be written down anywhere. The idea being that the law has always existed and the courts just apply it. For example, over here there’s no actual statute that says murder is an offence. It’s just taken as self evident.

So the tribunals just held that, of course everything Nazis did were crimes; it was bloody obvious they were, and they must have known it.

The main non warcrime case on all that here, is a weird one about a “Ladies Directory”; but it nicely sets out the principles. Summary in link.

http://users.cecs.anu.edu.au/~James.Popple/publications/articles/retroactive/6.shtml

ETA: Oh, I googled for the ladies directory case; but that site actually has about Nuremberg!

http://users.cecs.anu.edu.au/~James.Popple/publications/articles/retroactive/5.shtml

Last edited 20 days ago by Alan Robertshaw
Diego
Diego
20 days ago

@Alan

That’s one of the reasons the British team lead the prosecutions and common law rules were applied to the proceedings (in deference to civil law there was a multi-judge bench who determined the facts rather than a jury)

I had no idea about that. With civil law being widespread throughout Europe I had always assumed the Nuremberg trials were carried out using civil law. The notion of sanctioning someone despite the crime not being properly laid out anywhere is absolutely wild. I’m no fan of common law precisely because it can be prone to such oversights, but I can certainly see the appeal of its use during circumstances such as these. I will definitely read all of these.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
20 days ago

Does that really affect his base though? They are cult like in their devotion to him, and I doubt there are many fence voters.

He can’t win with nothing but his base. At a minimum he must convince a bunch of Democrats and Democratic-leaning voters that Biden isn’t worth voting for and they should just stay home.

Diego
Diego
20 days ago

@Policy of Madness

He can’t win with nothing but his base. At a minimum he must convince a bunch of Democrats and Democratic-leaning voters that Biden isn’t worth voting for and they should just stay home.

Or suppress the votes in battleground states, which is what he is going for. The dismantlement of USPS sorting machines has taken mainly taken place in counties, located in battleground states, which Hillary won in 2016. I saw the map published not too long ago. They targeted those areas with surgical precision to ensure democrat votes are suppressed.

Likewise, Rachel Maddow covered the Russian hacking of 2016 and found out that they surgically targeted such counties as well, purposefully causing network delays which resulted in longer lines at the booth.

Last edited 20 days ago by Diego
Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
19 days ago

Or suppress the votes in battleground states, which is what he is going for.

True, there is that. And they are recruiting for on-site voter intimidation squads as well. But if Trump is down for the count, that hinders his own side. It’s not a guarantee that he won’t win, but it’s not a positive for him either.

Moogue
Moogue
19 days ago

So, according to some, my 70 year old Republican father should get Corona and possibly die, because he’s dumb and is mislead by Facebook lies and Limbaugh. Cool.

I’m not surprised Trump has Coronavirus, considering that he’s been pretty active, and only wears a mask when he wants to. What I’m worried about is that Trump will recover from it (and he probably will, his case is already being treated in an aggressive manner that all of us piece of shit peons could only dream of), and his seemingly easy recovery will just reinforce all of the Trumpanzees opinions that Coronavirus is nothing more than a flu that’s been politicized by the media.

Moogue
Moogue
19 days ago

In other unsurprising news, Alex Jones is being well… Alex Jones.


Alex Jones: White House staffer may have poisoned Trump’s Diet Coke and then told him he has COVID-19

ALEX JONES (HOST): America is in a war for its very survival and now our president battling against the Communist Chinese, the globalists, and others in open worldwide economic war is being told he’s got to stay locked up for 14 days legitimizing this entire giant fraud. What we know is 90% of the tests are false positive, conservatively. What we know is there are people inside the White House that want to lock the president down. There have been all these coup plans by people in the White House. You had Mattis trying to organize a coup. And I said all along one way to do it with this COVID-19 is to give him a false positive test. They could then poison his Diet Coke or something, he gets really sick and they said it’s COVID-19. So I would also advise the Secret Service to be extra diligent about what the president ingests because they could now use COVID as the cover to kill the president.

Diego
Diego
19 days ago

@Moogue

So, according to some, my 70 year old Republican father should get Corona and possibly die, because he’s dumb and is mislead by Facebook lies and Limbaugh. Cool.

Yeah, you’re right, we should be nicer to your father as he continues to support a Nazi administration after four years of incremental policies deliberately designed to disenfranchise and exterminate people of color; including illegal detainment, torture and actual fucking genocide.

No, we should totally be cool with that and expect for him to realize he’s wrong, despite Trump and his supporters pushing the boundaries of what is legal every single day, for the past four years; whilst they continue to pursue policies that have actually killed and continue to disproportionately kill people of color.

Last edited 19 days ago by Diego
FlyByKiwi
FlyByKiwi
19 days ago

I have been saying for a long time (and I know others have too) illness has no moral dimension. I reckon saying (e.g.) a person with lung cancer who has been a smoker ‘deserves it’ is a slippery slope to ‘deserving’ and ‘undeserving’ like the Victorian ‘deserving poor’. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do everything in our power to help people stop smoking, but in the interests of treating everyone like humans, I just don’t think we can go there. My views are very coloured by my own status as ‘morbidly obese’ (according to BMI, but I have no obesity related illnesses). I want not to be blamed by others for anything that happens to me and I don’t want others to be blamed for their illnesses either. I think that’s a massive cause of structural bias including racism in health care. So, as much as it hurts, I do not wish him ill. Do I secretly hope he might suffer serious illness and finally understand what he’s done to others? Yup. Do I think he’s capable of such insights? Nope. I am going to be making myself a serious bore over the next wee while reminding people this is why we’re complying with the law and following health recommendations. This might be the first time in his life that his wealth and power has not insulated him from the consequences of rule-breaking and so I do very much appreciate that.

Moogue
Moogue
19 days ago

Yeah, you’re right, we should be nicer to your father as he continues to support a Nazi administration…

No-one said you should be nice to him, he’s a piece of shit. (Generally,
extreme splitting/black and white thinking isn’t very healthy either). Just maybe not wish probable physical harm on other living beings.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
19 days ago

@Moogue

Regarding Alex Jones and his saying

… You had Mattis trying to organize a coup. …

Nah. I know the guy. If Mattis had been trying that – it’d have happened. He’s … kinda impressive.

Diego
Diego
19 days ago

@Mogue

Just maybe not wish probable physical harm on other living beings.

No. Though that is an extreme position to take, I do reserve the capacity to wish ill upon individuals in extreme circumstances. Extreme circumstances such as the abject and repeated cruelty with which Trump supporters treat anyone not considered within their in-group, but especially vulnerable people.

And where emotional and mental health is concerned, it is very hard for a victim of abuse to get closure without receiving justice. “Moving on” does little other than ensure ongoing trauma, which is why Black people suffer from mental trauma at higher rates than White people. If mental health is a concern, then the focus should be on administering justice and making sure these monsters never gain access to the levers of power ever again.

Moogue
Moogue
19 days ago

@Diego

Not to come at you too hard, as I understand your anger, but the reason why you don’t wish ill on living beings is because it’s basically a veiled & passive aggressive threat. And I don’t believe in making threats, especially if you have no intention of following through and PERSONALLY harming the people/beings involved.

it is very hard for a victim of abuse to get closure without receiving justice

So the reason I haven’t been around lately is that I’ve recently said No to ex-abuser over something to do with the kids, and the ex has been finding such new and exciting ways to emotionally abuse me and create new, financially draining litigation.

Let me tell you that while anger and outrage are VERY useful in the short term, in the long-term they will burn you out and leave you drained and traumatized. It’s important to learn how to feel ok, without something external like “justice” happening. You need to focus on what you can directly control, do what you can to fight for justice, but do your best to not get emotionally caught up in external things that are out of your direct control.

Dalillama
19 days ago

@Ohlmann
Yes, enslaving other human beings absolutely and automatically justifies being hanged at the first opportunity by any decent person. You know fuckall about the history of the US Civil War and Reconstruction, and are thus unaware of how former slaveholders did things like found the KKK to terrorize Black people who dared to act like they were free, and establish Jim Crow laws throughout the South, and use the great wealth they had extracted from the blood and suffering of their fellow human beings to ensure that history classes to this day are filled with Confederate apologia. If they’d all been hanged and their wealth distributed among their victims, none of those things would have happened. We wouldn’t even have had Diego’s caution to worry about, since slaveholders were never a very large segment of the population. And the fact that you appear to see no moral difference between shoplifting and enslaving people is really fucked up, and also shows that your grasp on sociology and criminology is worse than your grasp on US history.

@Moogue
Nobody made your dad choose to spend his time marinating in fascist propaganda, he did that all by himself. As such, he falls into the same category as any other fascist in my book: they dug the grave, they can fucking lie in it.

@Flybykiwi
Fascists deserve every bad thing that happens to them. That’s not attaching moral value to an illness, it’s just a statement of fact. Anything that puts more fascists in the ground is a positive, or in this case a silver lining: at least some of the sick are people who really, really, deserve to suffer.

Diego
Diego
19 days ago

@Moogue

Not to come at you too hard, as I understand your anger, but the reason why you don’t wish ill on living beings is because it’s basically a veiled & passive aggressive threat. And I don’t believe in making threats, especially if you have no intention of following through and PERSONALLY harming the people/beings involved.

Fair enough, but that is territory that I simply can’t go into because then I’d really run afoul of the comments policy. I do understand and share that position because if life’s taught me anything is to never make threats you don’t intend on following through.

As for abuse, you have my condolences. Very much like Trump, my father was a malignant narcissist who enjoyed abusing my mother and my siblings. His little reign of terror eventually crumbled once I became stronger than him and beat him to shit in a parking lot. He wasn’t the last abuser or bully I ever dealt with either, and they all (every. last. one. of. them) eventually required me to beat them bloody to get them to stop. Abusers are all about control, and they will use anything and everything at their disposal to instill a sense of hopelessness. Which is pretty much why I hate Trump and his supporters: they are a party of organized abusers.

I also agree that anger and outrage can burn you out in the long term, and can even manifest in cardiovascular and immunodeficient diseases. However, you should know as well as I do that, outside closure through justice, getting rid of that anger is only achievable through years of therapy. And even then you are never rid of it entirely, it is always there, boiling underneath the surface awaiting for a trigger. Unfortunately, Trump and his ilk are very adept at being triggering.

Lukas Xavier
Lukas Xavier
19 days ago

There’s a lot of worrying about the legal basis of locking up the Trumpists. I don’t think it’s going to be a problem. This administration has committed so many crimes that any honest investigation will leave them locked away for life.

So, the real question is whether we’re going to get an honest investigation.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
19 days ago

Naglfar:

Under a sensible administration this would have been contained in the spring and we’d be in a similar place to other countries that handled it better, like Vietnam which has had less than 40 deaths. We probably wouldn’t be that low because the US is a bigger country than Vietnam and in a different geopolitical situation, but it would definitely be less than 200,000 people under a better government.

Now, Vietnam level success would be an ambitious goal indeed. It seems that white people countries often get praised as “Covid-19 success stories” if their death toll is below 100 per million people. (USA is currently slightly above 600, Finland is slightly above 60, Canada and most EU countries somewhere in between.)

Diego:

Trump has always been a notorious germophobe. He might have joked around with the masks but behind closed doors he was having everyone in his staff tested each and every day to make sure he didn’t get it. I’m impressed he actually managed to get infected despite all of those precautions.

I’ve seen claims that Trump’s germaphobia has been actually greatly exaggerated. Generally, there’s conflicting accounts on how much he seemed to worry about his own safety in these past months. Obviously he was politically in a bind, forced to at least play careless in public. It’s unclear why exactly he originally chose to to refuse a national mitigation effort, but once he did that, Covid reality became a partisan issue. Now, his best political option is pandering to the covidiots, and in the process he’s been increasingly training his base to be covidiots. He couldn’t back down Covid denialism if he wanted.

As for his death risk being still somewhat low – considering his age and general health, it’s actually more likely he’ll die from something else over the next four years. I think his fans are quite optimistic on how much more mileage they’ll get out of him.

Naglfar
Naglfar
19 days ago

@Lumipuna
I remember after Trump was first spotted in public with a mask, a bunch of liberal papers like the Washington Post had op-eds about how he’s changed. No, he hasn’t changed, he’s just playing optics. This is why the president needs to be held to a standard and shouldn’t be congratulated for doing a basic thing once.

As for his health, they don’t need him much longer. Just long enough to win again and create a dictatorship. Then he can die and pass power to Don Jr or Ivanka.

Moogue
Moogue
19 days ago

@Lumipuna

“Now, his best political option is pandering to the covidiots, and in the process he’s been increasingly training his base to be covidiots. He couldn’t back down Covid denialism if he wanted.”

Trump’s flip-flopped before and gotten away with it, mostly because his single greatest talent is being able to put positive spin on dogshit and sell it. He could turn wearing masks into “tha most patriotic thing eva”, but he won’t. Encouraging aggressive mask wearing would mean agreeing with Democrats, and deep down Trump’s still that 18 month old baby that runs into the street when Mommy’s back is turned because hahaha doesn’t that just get mommy sooooo upset? Hahahahaha!

@Dali

“and are thus unaware of how former slaveholders did things like found the KKK to terrorize Black people who dared to act like they were free, and establish Jim Crow laws throughout the South, and use the great wealth they had extracted from the blood and suffering of their fellow human beings to ensure that history classes to this day are filled with Confederate apologia.”

Slavers were simply the most noxious cogs of a rotten society that upheld the belief that some people were inherently worth less. Killing only the slavers would have changed nothing in the long run, as to kill a cancer you need to destroy it at the root, not the outcropping.

White abolitionists in the North pretty much were 100% complicit in the formation of the KKK, Jim Crow laws, and Confederate apologia, so for things to have truly changed we would have to kill every last White person in the US, and quite frankly, in the world. (Remember, immigration is a thing, and chattel slavery/racism were imported along with the Whites coming from outside the US). And well then, Hispanics also had issues with chattel slavery and racism as well, so if we want to abolish racism we should have killed all of them worldwide. (Again, immigration being a thing). And then there’s Asians, who also were tainted by chattel slavery in general, and being complicit in supporting the form specific to Blacks, so them too. And so on.

This is why combining violence with splitting/all or nothing thinking is so dangerous. Using violence outside of direct personal self-defense in some misguided attempt to solve societal problems is almost always ineffective at best, ghoulish at worst. EVERYONE thinks that THEIR violence against society is righteous and justified. But humans are fools.

“Nobody made your dad choose to spend his time marinating in fascist propaganda, he did that all by himself. As such, he falls into the same category as any other fascist in my book: they dug the grave, they can fucking lie in it.”

All right internet tough girl, I explained the error of making a statement like this, I gave you an out, but you dug down, so here we are.

Maybe you have never seen a human being die, but I have, and it was the single most traumatic thing I have seen in my life, more so than all the abuse and injustice in my life, more so than even being raped. And it wasn’t even a death resulting from murder.

If you truly think that you could look into a human being’s eyes and watch them die from murder, then you are truly lost. And there’s nothing more to be said, other than goddamn, if we’re not all already on some FBI watchlist, we all deserve to be.

@Diego

“However, you should know as well as I do that, outside closure through justice, getting rid of that anger is only achievable through years of therapy. And even then you are never rid of it entirely, it is always there, boiling underneath the surface awaiting for a trigger.”

Sorry to hear about your abusive dad and others, and I’m glad that you were able to act to stop their abuse. That’s amazing, but not everyone has that option though. Justice can be impossible to find in this world.

I 100% agree with you that abuse completely high jacks the limbic system, although for me, my anger usually came out more as panic rather than anger, so I ended up diagnosed with agoraphobia and panic disorder, among other things. Emotionally, psychologically, I was torn up. I learned from therapy that you can teach yourself to use the higher levels of the brain to act as a counterweight to the emotional system, regardless of what’s going on in the outside world. Develop new pathways in the brain. That sort of thing.

I think I’ve mentioned that DBT has helped me in the past, and it has, although admittedly I’m still far from considering myself proficient, and it does take time and work. DBT was developed for BPD, so it was developed for dealing with intense emotions. And if it can help folks with BPD, it can help anyone learn to accept and dispell strong emotions, including anger.

Last edited 19 days ago by Moogue
Diego
Diego
19 days ago

@Mogue

Maybe you have never seen a human being die, but I have, and it was the single most traumatic thing I have seen in my life, more so than all the abuse and injustice in my life, more so than even being raped. And it wasn’t even a death resulting from murder.

I hate to keep on bang on this drum, given that it has a lot of trauma attached to it, but I find it necessary given the circumstances. I’m sorry you had to deal with so much trauma and abuse, no one deserves that. That being said I don’t think it’s right for you to judge what people’s reaction to trauma might be.

There is a number of abuse victims out there that feel relief after their abuser dies. I’ve personally seen people die, whether from an accident or natural causes, and my reaction was not the same because circumstances and context greatly influence how we feel.

I don’t think reacting with apathy to the death of your abuser, even if it happens to be murder, means you’re “lost”. I’ve seen that reaction before (granted, not in the case of murder) and I wouldn’t shame that victim for feeling relief and even elation. But nor do I want to invalidate your feelings because abuse can be a complicated thing. It can foster helplessness and paralyzing sadness in some, and profound fury in others. Both of these are valid. Feelings are a personal thing and no victim of abuse deserves to be dehumanized for something that is beyond their control.

And well then, Hispanics also had issues with chattel slavery and racism as well, so if we want to abolish racism we should have killed all of them worldwide. (Again, immigration being a thing).

As a Latino I can confirm that we did have issues with chattel slavery and we still have a significant amount of racism, however never to the degree that is experienced in the United States. Slavery was abolished in most Latin American countries with their wars of independence, and then it wasn’t replaced by institutions like the KKK or Jim Crow. Then again there are a few experiences (Chile and Argentina) were genocide of indigenous populations was carried out.

But, though racism survives in our countries, it is nowhere near as institutionalized as it is in America. I think a lot of it stems from the fact that Latinos are mostly people of color, with very few white people (safe for a couple of exceptions). Though if I’m being honest, there is a lot of internalized racism and no short amount of misogyny. For example, my country has the greatest percentage of Trump supporters among all of Latin America. And it’s wild because you read the comments section of our media on facebook and it’s all these brown skinned people cheering for Trump and parroting Nazi propaganda.

And doubtless, these people would rightfully complain if they were called a racial slur. Honestly, I don’t know what to make of it. I think it’s mostly misogyny (which is internalized as well, because plenty of these comments come from Latinas too). I’ve even met someone who had their US citizenship stripped away in one of these strange proceedings ICE and the DHS had, but he was still supporting Trump.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
19 days ago

As a Latino I can confirm that we did have issues with chattel slavery and we still have a significant amount of racism, however never to the degree that is experienced in the United States. Slavery was abolished in most Latin American countries with their wars of independence, and then it wasn’t replaced by institutions like the KKK or Jim Crow. Then again there are a few experiences (Chile and Argentina) were genocide of indigenous populations was carried out.

Uh, huh. I’m sure if you were indigenous you’d have a different story to tell about the institutionalized racism of Latin American countries. Every group is capable of racism. Every group punches down when they can. Let’s not pretend that white people have a monopoly on racism or institutionalized racism, and Hispanic people are completely, or even largely, free and clear. Nobody is free and clear of racism.