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incels inspiring reddit

Former incel: “Developing empathy got me out of the incel rabbit hole”

Deanna Troi would be proud

“IncelExit” is a small subreddit devoted to helping those who’ve fallen into the incel rabbit hole and who are looking for “support and help with a pathway out.” It brings together “normies” who want to help with incels actually willing to listen to advice — a rarity in most incel communities, where every proposed solution is denounced as a “cope” or worse.

Some of the most inspiring posts and comments in IncelExit come from incels or almost-incels who have managed to figure out their own way out. I ran across this one during a recent visit to the subreddit:

xSeyoo 10 points 1 month ago 
I was in an incel community back in 2009. The name incel didn't exist, of course.
It was a place for "good guys" to rant about how women just wanted black criminals (yes, it was also a nazi group, but not that open about it).
There was a lot of pick up artists becoming famous at the time.

One day I decided to take a look at the enemy, and went on checking feminist communities (it was Orkut), and realized women actually had to deal with a lot of shit. Things I saw all around me but couldn't care about (I remembered all the fat, black girls being bullied, also being romantically denied, all around me in my school).

Realizing women where just people who had to handle a lot of shit (more than we have to, even though incel enviroments make we think we're the poorest creatures on earth. We are not. Being a man trumps being a woman 24/7). So basically, developing empathy made me get out of the incel rabbit hole. Still an incel by definition. 27 and virgin. But no longer blaming other people for it.

I think he’s on to something here. There’s no better cure for either the “red pill” and the “black pill” than an understanding of what life is really like for women in our society — paying attention to what women say about their lives rather than giving yourself over to red pill fantasies in which every women is riding the “cock carousel” and having sex with a different Chad every night. Those fantasies are only convincing to people who’ve trapped themselves within the thought bubble of the manosphere, where all knowledge or supposed knowledge about women comes from the mouths of other men (and a miniscule number of red pill women.)

The way for men to learn about the real lives of women is to listen to women, not bitter men. And if you listen carefully enough and long enough, you’ll develop empathy — the same empathy that xSeyoo credits for pulling out of the incel morass. Men have problems just as women do, but they are hardly the most persecuted creatures on planet earth.

Looking through his comment history on Reddit, I see that in the month since he posted this comment he’s actually found himself a girlfriend, so he’s no longer even an “incel by definition.” Indeed, his rejection of incel logic has enabled to do what most incels would consider impossible at his age. I wish him the best.

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Trying
Trying
1 month ago

A positive post! How lovely! We’ve got to take breaks from the slimepits sometimes.

Correction Automatique
Correction Automatique
1 month ago

Congratulations, mate! I wish only positive things for him and his partner. I hope he continues to learn, grow and benefit from empathy and love. That said, I doubt I’ll ever cease to be flabbergasted that so many men can’t grasp the concept that women, in general, respond positively to genuine common decency, respect and kindness. None of this you-get-out-what-you-put-in manipulation, no Brownie points scheming, no happy wife, happy life bullshit. Sigh.

Kimstu
Kimstu
1 month ago

Hear hear! But I will never cease to be staggered that so many men genuinely consider “realizing women [were] just people” to be such a massive mind-exploding revelation.

If we had a COVID vaccine even one-half as powerful and durable in its effects as toxic masculinity is, we’d all be rushing around right now kissing strangers in crowded bars in a delirium of euphoric relief.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

I’m going to go against the flow and resist offering him cookies for realizing that women are human. I mean, it’s fine I guess that he’s no longer an incel, but is it really worth celebrating that he meets minimum standards for a decent person now?

Seth S
Seth S
1 month ago

YMMV and you can celebrate what you want, or not, but these days, I’m willing to celebrate any crumb of decency in anybody.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

Yeah I agree with PoM. Especially as he still called himself “an incel by definition”. It’s like with “reformed” Nazis, the bar for respect is (and should be) very high.

Last edited 1 month ago by Cyborgette
Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

YMMV and you can celebrate what you want, or not, but these days, I’m willing to celebrate any crumb of decency in anybody.

Yah, and I understand that urge, but that’s putting the bar so low for these men that it’s literally on the ground and all they have to do is step over it to get confetti and a parade. When I get a parade for recognizing men as human, I’ll get on board with giving men ticker tape for the reverse, ya know?

But maybe I’m just grumpy right now because my city decided to wake me up THREE times with curfew alerts and I’m pretty fucking pissed.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

I’m going to go with PoM and Cyborgette here. If he truly wants to change, great. But I’m not going to give him a Pat on the back just yet. Seen way too many former alt-rightists claim to be leftists after learning a little bit about Marx but then still being bigots (*cough* Vaush, Xanderhal *cough*). I want to see evidence of real-world action to repair the damage people have done before I accept them into the fold.

@PoM
You’re in Louisville, right? Stay safe.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

@Naglfar

Yes, and I’m fine except for my pissivity at being denied sleep. Thanks for caring though!

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
1 month ago

Those fantasies are only convincing to people who’ve trapped themselves within the thought bubble of the manosphere, where all knowledge or supposed knowledge about women comes from the mouths of other men (and a miniscule number of red pill women.)

I wonder how much of it is coming from TV instead. I mean, the other men must be getting it from somewhere, ultimately.

And meanwhile, TV (and movies) routinely depicts the world as fairly strongly resembling the caricature manosphereans seem to believe in. In particular, the male characters have a clearly assigned sexual pecking-order: the charismatic heroes get no shortage of opportunities, and random extras can sometimes be part of visible couples, but main characters who are sidekicks are typically doomed by the writers to an endless string of failures, and usually to at least occasional mockery for even having tried. And, of course, unless the role is “grandmother” or something similar, or to be unattractive for laughs, the women are almost 100% conventionally attractive. Meanwhile LGBTQ characters, whom manosphereans often seem to forget exist in the real world, are passing rare on TV, or were until quite recently.

Hollywood, in short, depicts a heteronormative world of Stacies with the odd Becky and a grandma or two, along with a handful of Chads who get nearly all of the action and usually at least one prominent “incel” (non-ideologically) per series.

Oddly, for their otherwise fairly progressive outlook, the 1990s-era Star Trek series are particularly bad for this. Unattractive women are practically nonexistent, leaving aside infrequent alien instances (where the males of the same species tend to be likewise unappealing to humans). Men in leading roles have no shortage of opportunities, though vary as to how commonly they actually accept these. Men not in leading roles, especially the ones with nerdier jobs, consistently fail, and frequently it gets played for laughs. La Forge, Harry Kim, even Data fit the pattern. Rare instances of apparent success inevitably go horribly wrong in some way. And there’s basically no LGBTQ representation at all.

The TV/movie universe clearly divides the men into inherent winners and inherent losers in love, and longer-running TV series additionally drive home that membership in these categories is utterly immutable. If a born loser tries to change things with some sort of makeover, expect an embarrassingly spectacular failure, likely played for laughs. If he seems to finally have a stroke of luck, it will turn out she’s a space vampire (Voyager “Favorite Son”), or just using him to get something of value (Voyager “Inside Man”; also the 2nd X-Men film), or similarly, and he’ll swiftly end up with a broken heart if not dead. If he gets a “magical makeover” from an outside source, he’ll become temporarily luckier in love, right up until the moment whatever-it-is turns back into a pumpkin, and not for one second longer. And so on.

Of course, much of this is explicable as the result of various non-ideologically-motivated factors in production, such as most shows (especially before the mid-2000s or so) tending to reset things at the end of every episode to the status quo ante — this means by definition only the characters who started the series already in a long-term relationship will have lasting romances — and the prevalence of “Stacies” is attributable to the male gaze in production, and so forth. The results are inarguable, though: a fictional world that resembles rather closely the ontology of the typical incel, MGTOW, or similarly.

Television has rotted their brains.

Why not everyone’s? Because most people get inoculated, I guess, by contradictory data from actual reality. But the more socially isolated get most of their model for what goes on in relationships from what is modeled for them in fiction, and so TV rots their brains.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Surplus

I wonder how much of it is coming from TV instead. I mean, the other men must be getting it from somewhere, ultimately.

TV could play a role, but I’m more inclined to point to YouTube these days. YouTube’s algorithms purposely serve users videos that it thinks they will want to watch, and multiple studies have shown that this means that people are steered towards more and more extreme right wing content. Even in my own experience I’ve seen this, a while ago I was rewatching some of Anita Sarkeesian’s old videos for something and all the recommendations in the sidebar were from alt-rightists like Carl of Swindon and Thunderf00t.

Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
1 month ago

I love this guy’s narrative. That said, there’s some serious BS on the subreddit as well. Xseyoo, the guy David quotes, also posted about improving his looks and then getting a girlfriend. Here’s one response:

ChuhChu

1 point · 16 hours ago

so you just improved your looks and girls just suddenly started being attracted to you? yeah “personality matters” my ass

And here’s another response in a different vein. Please do click through. Oops! No need to click through. The photos showed up practically life size.

Loooloiek

6 points · 1 day ago · edited 1 day ago

I agree with this critique of this sub. I’ve just discovered it today and noticed there seems to be a push to brush off the importance of appearances.

The mods even removed my post for “trolling”, for something that clearly wasn’t. I’m guessing they removed it, because I said to become “good-looking” instead of appearances don’t matter.

My original post copy-pasted:

Just become good looking. It doesn’t take that much effort.

Haircut, gym, fashion. Yes it’s all “normie” advice, but it worked out fantastic for me.

I’m 5’7″, so kinda short. Before I certainly got zero dates, but now I get way more. Here’s what I looked like before and after. Had to go through some crazy digging for my before pic. In the before pic, I would’ve been called “truecel” by the blackpill community. It’s not always right.

Before:

comment imageAfter:
comment image
comment image

Gosh, I can’t imagine why this post was earlier deleted by the subreddit’s mods.

PS: He looks fine in the before photo. He’s a little skinny, something pretty common for teenagers. (Not me, never me. But some teenagers.)

Last edited 1 month ago by Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@kimstu : I will pull you one even stranger : a lot of people don’t consider other people to be, well, people. I think it’s mostly men who are affected, but it may be a perspective problem.

Eyeballing it I would say somewhere like 1/5 or 1/6 of people genuingly didn’t get the revelations that they are not the only sentient being, and more importantly all that entail. If you want an easy to see example, Trump really doesn’t get that other people exist.

Cindy
Cindy
1 month ago

Yeah, I’m giving this dude the same side-eye I give “”””former”””” alt-righters.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Kat
And this is why I’m still cynical of this subreddit. I’m sure there are people there who genuinely do want to change or help others change, but there seem to be others who just want to spread the typical incel bucket of crabs mentality.

@Ohlmann
I’m not sure if it’s that they think other people don’t exist or that other people exist solely to serve them. When conservatives were protesting to demand their states reopen to let them get a haircut, it’s because they thought they were entitled to the labor of women and PoC.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@Naglfjar : I don’t think they feel entitled to the work of thoses peoples specifically, but that they don’t realize thoses workers are sentient like them, but are rather more like piece of furnitures.

I see two reasons to think so :

  • they act exactly as callously regardless of who the worker is. It’s not like they are all that nicer to white waitress or hairdressers.
  • when you confront them about their hypocrisis (like when they themselves refuse to go to work to avoid COVID), their reactions is almost alway “I have good reasons” and no “thoses people deserve to die”, hinting they don’t get that the other party might have good reason too.

Of course, distinguishing my hypothesis from your own is pretty hard, doubly so because it might be a bit of A and a bit of B.

That being said, I have frequented people with which the fact they don’t understand other people are sentient is much more obvious. At least one is particulary jarring because he don’t act callously, but it’s often pretty clear he don’t understand other people have agency. Like he is alway surprised that other people have obligations.

Sharl
Sharl
1 month ago

I’m actually willing to give this guy a cookie. Maybe not a super-duper awesome cookie, but a cookie. Y’know why? He’s taking a step in the right direction. Sure, he’s got a long way to go, but he’s actually making an effort to improve as a person, and in a world where being awful far too often seems to be not only the easiest way but the most rewarding way, any step towards a more positive and empathic outlook should be welcomed.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

I decided to look through the top posts of all time on that sub, and here are the distilled essence of the top five:

  1. Former incel upset about incel racism making him insecure about his own non-white heritage. Talks to immigrant parents about heritage and becomes proud of it.
  2. Former incel left social media for a while to regroup, and did a nice thing for a young girl. Got warm fuzzies out of it and has decided that he’s not a terrible person or hopeless case after all.
  3. An online dating guide where the first point is “Women have the advantage in online dating” so he hasn’t really listened to any women before deciding he’s the online dating expert. Seems to be a larval PUA.
  4. A post from a current incel relaying a story about a woman who was mean to him for no reason and asking how he can change his appearance.
  5. A quality post complaining about how the name of the sub isn’t a silly pun.

Truly a support sub for the ages.

Sheila Crosby
Sheila Crosby
1 month ago

I’m with @Sharl. I think he deserves a small cookie. Not a whole gateau with Swiss chocolate and real cream, but a small cookie because progress is progress.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@PoM
I took a look at the posts. The main issue I’m noticing is that they all still seem to be using incel rhetoric or self-identifying as incels, which makes me think they aren’t really leaving incelism. I see maybe glimmers of improvement here and there, but over all it looks like there’s still a lot to work through for many of these people before they have fully detoxified themselves from incel ideology.

I mean, best of luck, but I’m still giving side-eye.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

@Naglfar

Yeah, when they keep discussing the blue pill and the black pill and whatnot, it makes it hard to take their reform seriously. And I read the whole “online dating guide” and a lot of the comments, and they are still putting sexual success with women at the forefront of their identities. They’re “exiting” the incel culture only in that they no longer believe they are undatable; they haven’t graduated yet to the idea that their value is not tied to their dating success.

Kereea
Kereea
1 month ago

From what I’ve seen, this is pretty much how all of them that get out do–entering other spaces not entirely built around the idea of being an incel and realzing there is more to life than the ideaology claims. There’s a popular post on tumblr from another dude who got out (it’s a reddit screenshot) because he liked his uncle’s pet micro shrimps and started trying to raise his own and ended up getting really into it and improving his life mainly in order to better support the hobby and then his world expanded, even just through the tiny lens of “I like these small animals and enjoy keeping them.”

This is entirely why the guys with legitimate hobbies tend to leave MGTOW as well: it’s VERY easy to see there being more to life than hating women if you’re into a hobby that brings you genuine joy. Sure, there are absolutely hobbyists that are misogynistic, but the core of their identity is still more based in the hobby than their misogyny. So when you’re “going your own way” and want to discuss this sweet hobby of yours and all anyone on your discussion board wants to do is whine about women instead, you’re going to seek out other pastures. Pastures which may even have women in them!

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@PoM

And I read the whole “online dating guide” and a lot of the comments, and they are still putting sexual success with women at the forefront of their identities. They’re “exiting” the incel culture only in that they no longer believe they are undatable; they haven’t graduated yet to the idea that their value is not tied to their dating success.

And unfortunately that seems to be a path into pickup artistry. It used to be that incels were failed pickup artists but now it looks like the inverse. The only positive is that they’re probably less likely to go on a shooting rampage now.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

I’m actually hugely in favor of this “slow exit, still using incel terms” and the like in that particular space.

He’s not talking to you. He’s talking to the lurkers in the language they understand, which gives him far more credibility – and telling them that no, they’re wrong. They don’t have to be miserably violent little shits.

over all it looks like there’s still a lot to work through for many of these people before they have fully detoxified

Who doesn’t?

He doesn’t get a cookie from me for being a more decent person, but I’d probably buy him a beer.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

@Threp

I take how they speak to one another in their own spaces very seriously. Incels are notorious for portraying themselves as harmless sad sacks worthy of pity and help when amongst others, but they are extremely toxic in their own spaces. This is sort of an incel space so how they speak there amongst themselves provides valuable information. Even the “exited” ones seem to frequently still believe in biological imperatives, for instance, and the comments on the online dating guide are less about trying to find someone compatible with you and more about trying to play the numbers game with women.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@PoM

Even the “exited” ones seem to frequently still believe in biological imperatives, for instance, and the comments on the online dating guide are less about trying to find someone compatible with you and more about trying to play the numbers game with women.

I see a sort of similar tendency with supposedly “breadpilled” alt right people who read some theory books and claim to be leftists. Many of them claim to be reformed but continue to use slurs to be “edgy” and criticize anyone who calls them out as a “wokescold.” They claim to be deradicalizing the right, but it feels like they’re just making the left more toxic. I’m seeing the same thing here with the supposedly exited incels. And maybe I’m just a cynic, but I know the danger of these types if they get into left wing spaces (in this case danger to women especially).

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
1 month ago

I see a sort of similar tendency with supposedly “breadpilled” alt right people who read some theory books and claim to be leftists.

I see this kind of thing not as white nationalists reforming themselves, but as an effort white nationalists are making to recruit white leftists. Particularly white male leftists. The dirtbag left already scorns discussion of any oppression other than class oppression and resents leftists who take an intersectional approach so much that they’re obvious easy marks for the alt right if the alt right makes it seem like they’re for economic policies that will largely benefit white men.

Sorry for the run on sentences.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@WWTH

I see this kind of thing not as white nationalists reforming themselves, but as an effort white nationalists are making to recruit white leftists.

And this is why I can’t stand Chapo Trap House. Last I heard they’re now claiming that cops are working class so we should have solidarity with them. They’re either rewording the alt right to appeal to lefty dudebros, or they’re Nazbols. Neither is a good prospect for the left.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

I don’t trust this at all.

Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

This is well worth a read.

A lot of what has been discussed here before; but all the issues succinctly collated.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/

Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

Further to elections.

Arnie has offered to pay for polling stations to stay open that are to be closed for ‘budget’ reasons.

https://www.gucmakale.com/wp/arnold-schwarzenegger-offers-to-pay-to-reopen-polling-centers-across-the-us-so-everyone-can-vote/

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
1 month ago

@Naglfar:

Last I heard they’re now claiming that cops are working class so we should have solidarity with them.

Seriously? They’re guard labor for the wealthy, when they aren’t just plain Gestapo thugs of course. A proper socialist society would have little need of them. Someone to manage drunk’n’disorderlies I suppose and maybe to intervene in arguments that threaten to get violent, but certainly no patrols along beats. There’d be little motivation for thievery and what exclusions of access were needed to avert tragedies of the commons would probably be achieved with the judicious application of padlocks here and there.

@Alan Robertshaw:

Arnie has offered to pay for polling stations to stay open that are to be closed for ‘budget’ reasons.

Wait, what? Last I checked, he was a Republican.

@nobody in particular: The choice of article photo is interesting. An argument could be made that Troi was one of the most feminist characters at that time on television. Consider this: she presented very feminine (and for some reason often went out in public in her pajamas) and had a “feminine” job for one of the hats she wore … and was a key trusted advisor of the captain, generally taken seriously if she offered an opinion or insight at a meeting, and not assumed by everyone in the crew to be an airheaded bimbo, a sex object, or otherwise not to be taken seriously. Her position on the bridge established her as the captain’s strong left hand. (Being a fairly reliable living lie detector obviously helped with that.) Late in the series she takes a difficult test needed to advance toward command ranks, which involves proving oneself capable to order a crewmember onto a suicide mission if it would save everybody else, and passes, so no depiction of her as “too emotional and feminine” to make tough decisions; indeed an explicit repudiation of that myth, involving easily the most feminine-presenting character.

In short, she succeeds as a woman, and not by being “one of the guys” and downplaying her femininity either. The future society she is in is shown as not requiring a woman to repudiate her femininity if she wishes to be taken seriously outside of traditionally “feminine” contexts (in her case, outside of when she’s being the ship’s therapist — so, on the bridge, in the briefing room, and during that test, in particular).

Thoughts?

(Notably, the same captain’s other commonplace source of advice, outside of specific technical areas, was a woman of color, though there was at least a whiff of the problematic “magical Negro” trope in her case.)

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Surplus

Last I checked, he was a Republican.

He is, though to be fair he has been a pretty vocal critic of Trump’s regime. This is probably because he grew up in Austria post-war and knows exactly what fascism does to a country.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
1 month ago

Fun fact regarding Arnold Schwartznagger, InfoWars at one time was pushing a conspiracy that he was a Nazi and was part of a plot to infiltrate the US and make it a Nazi state. The elite were going to pass a constitutional amendment to allow immigrants to become president and would run Arnie. During the Bush 43 administration, my mom’s co-worker gave her some burned DVDs of InfoWars conspiracy documentaries and this was one of the topics.

Of course, now that white nationalist authoritarianism has for real come to pass, Alex Jones et al have embraced it. But there was a time they pretended to oppose.

One of the other DVDs was about how George W Bush murdered JFK Jr. Good times. I may still have those DVDs somewhere.

Correction Automatique
Correction Automatique
1 month ago

Don’t get me wrong, I’m sceptical as fuck, but I’m congratulating him like I train puppies, excessive positive reinforcement establishes good behaviour. Also, I needed some good news, and sometimes take what I can get.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@WWTH : the thing important to them is if the dictators is from their group or not. In fact, the reason for which they see plot to impose a totalitarian governement is that it’s what they seek to do.

Just, they want to be sure the dictator is to their liking. Funnily, the best they can do is fail, because if they succeed, the fate of the SA await them.

I don’t particulary like Schwartznagger, but he more or less stuck to his gun in being a “centrist” republicain. On one hand you can easily found a lot of problem in his administration ; on the other he isn’t significantly different from Obama I guess. If he really pay from his pocket for polling station it would be a strong sign that he didn’t sell his soul. There have to be some republicains who stuck to be vaguely malevolent and not downright evil I guess.

Amtep
Amtep
1 month ago

It’s gotten to the point where I feel kind of shocked to hear people openly admitting to being Republicans, like on TV, where everyone can hear them.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

Re: Schwarzenegger: he’s politically not horrible as Republicans go, but he’s also a serial sexual harasser, so fuck him regardless. He gets no cookies from me.

Citerior Motive
Citerior Motive
1 month ago

@Policy of Madness

is it really worth celebrating that he meets minimum standards for a decent person now?

@Seth S

YMMV and you can celebrate what you want, or not, but these days, I’m willing to celebrate any crumb of decency in anybody.

I think I kind of agree with both of you: it should be difficult for ex-incels to earn our trust given their previous toxicity, but at the same time, I think it’s okay to express approval of even small positive steps. Responding, “Not good enough; fuck you,” when someone takes the first step out of manospherian toxicity doesn’t exactly provide an incentive to keep going.

Obviously this needs the caveat that being nice to fuckboys is a lot of emotional labour, and if you’re not willing/able to do that it’s okay.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Citerior Motive

Responding, “Not good enough; fuck you,” when someone takes the first step out of manospherian toxicity doesn’t exactly provide an incentive to keep going.

I don’t think that’s what Policy of Madness said. The ex-incel still sounds a lot like an incel and seems like has a long way to go. Patting him on the back excessively now might convince him he doesn’t have anything else to do. It’s a start, but I don’t think that we should be rewarding people for the bare minimum.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

Also? No reason to assume he’s reading this, and I’m not going to hold back what I think just in case he is.

(And TBH that’s another thing he probably needs to get used to: that for some women, he’ll simply never be good enough, and that has to be okay. Seriously that’s not even a problem limited to men, I *still* struggle with accepting I’ll never be good enough for some people – as a white woman that’s super important in antiracist work, and honestly I still suck at it.)

Last edited 1 month ago by Cyborgette
Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

Anyway yeah because I’m feeling tired but generous right now, I’m gonna drop a bunch of advice for any incels or proximate guys reading this who are questioning where they’re at:

Learn to lean on other men for emotional support, and support them in turn. Not just when you’re drunk or stoned either.

Learn to walk away from notions of virginity and sexual experience. These things are constructs, not physical reality – there are people who don’t like or can’t have PIV sex and are more experienced than you. (Hi, I’m one of them.)

Learn a hobby. Learn something artistic. Learn to knit, learn to sing, learn to cook – and not just for self sufficiency or to impress women, but to find joy in your cooking. Learn how to dance. Learn yoga (there are numerous apps available for it). If you’re thinking martial arts, learn tai chi first, or something else slow and pretty and useless in a fight.

If you like reading, read books by women – not necessarily feminist ones, pulpy genre fiction is cool too. If you like watching TV and films, watch stuff that centers on female characters – it doesn’t have to be good, just something other than the male perspective. Learn to live in female characters’ heads, understand what they’re feeling, actually empathize, instead of just seeing their bodies and objectifying them. Find forms of entertainment that aren’t video games, and that don’t center violence. (That last one is hard TBH, I’m still working on that.)

Learn about skin care, hair care, how to select clothing by color. Browse thrift stores (online ones now, what with the plague) and cultivate your own personal style. If makeup sounds interesting, learn that too! Find things that you like about your body, and note them in the mirror. Learn to look good for yourself, not just for other people. It’s okay to find yourself attractive sometimes – that’s not pathological narcissism, it’s completely normal.

Find guy friends who are okay with hugs and physical touch (when it’s safe again, anyway). You’re as vulnerable to touch starvation as we are, but men are trained not to help each other with that, and women avoid touching men for fear of rape – and yes, I’m keenly aware of how terrible this is, I used to be male and it made my life almost unbearable. But building that level of trust among men is super important. Women rely all the time on people who aren’t their partners, or who aren’t even attractive to them, for touch support; men can learn to do that too.

Learn to take care of houseplants. Learn to garden. Learn to take care of a pet, and get one. Get to where you’re entirely comfortable baby-talking to your pet (or your plants) in front of strangers.

If the Horny Demon makes you feel awful all the time, there are actual medical interventions for that. Finasteride kills male libido for instance, and also makes your skin clearer and keeps you from going bald. This isn’t an intervention to be taken lightly, but like… if you feel like your sexuality makes you unable to function, it’s okay to talk to your doctor about it. It doesn’t make you any less a man, or any less a person. Just as for women, there is more to you than sex; sex is not your only purpose in life, and it’s okay to want to escape your libido instead of satisfying it.

Learn to channel your anger into things that make the world better. Learn to cry instead of yelling or hitting things. Learn to cry from positive emotions, not just negative ones. Make a list of songs and film scenes that bring you to tears every time.

Learn to smile more – I know this is super ironic what with how men police women around not smiling, but Resting Douche Face reads to many of us not just as ugly but as a threat. Learn what expressions your face is capable of, and build your awareness of them. Watch yourself in a mirror and see what works, or just make yourself laugh with ridiculous goblin faces. It’s okay to laugh at yourself too, as long as you do it gently and lovingly.

Find a cause to fight for – women’s liberation is a good one, just saying – and do so in ways that aren’t violent, without the expectation of reward.

Learn how to masturbate better. I know that sounds utterly weird, but it’s a huge part of women’s and queer liberation, and there’s no reason it can’t help straight men too. Learn to do it without porn; get medical help with that if you need to, seriously, most porn is toxic and addictive by design. Learn to love yourself the same way you’d love a partner. Again, that’s not narcissism, that’s normal. Learn to mentally separate love from respect, and sexual love from romantic and platonic love. Learn to mentally separate sexual pleasure from sexual attraction to other people.

Engage with the idea that you might never have a sexual partner, and learn to disentangle that from your sense of confidence and self-respect. Learn to accept that it’s not something you have full control of, and not something you need to have full control of.

I can’t promise you love and sex. (Though honestly, IME? Those things are more likely to happen when you stop feeling that you need them.) But I can absolutely promise you a better life. Come out into the light, we have cupcakes and balloon animals and personal fulfillment! 🙂

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

You know, I do get it. Reward the behavior you want to see, and encourage it to see more of it. I understand. I just think that we go overboard to give men kudos for meeting basic standards that they should have been meeting all along.

This reminds me a lot of the trend a couple of years ago of celebrating men for taking care of their own children. Women who take care of their own children don’t get the same kind of accolades that men do; a single father raising children on his own gets a ton of support that single mothers do not. There’s a current trend of giving men applause when they contribute toward keeping a house clean, and edge closer toward 50/50 division of household labor.

I get it. You reward the behavior you want to see. But we don’t give women the same kind of kudos and it’s fucking exhausting to continually be expected to give positive reinforcement, like men are children themselves or circus animals being trained. Men are intelligent beings who are capable of self-motivation and they shouldn’t need me over here cheering them on in order for them to meet minimum standards. If they fail to motivate themselves, because they didn’t get enough head pats, that’s on them and not on me.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

@PoM

My long post above wasn’t aimed at you. I agree with you.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

@Cyborgette

My comment wasn’t aimed at you either. LOL

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Cyborgette

Find guy friends who are okay with hugs and physical touch (when it’s safe again, anyway).

I would say they should do this if they want to, but if they don’t want that they shouldn’t be obliged to seek it out. Some people really don’t like touch, and that’s okay too.

@PoM

I just think that we go overboard to give men kudos for meeting basic standards that they should have been meeting all along.

I agree. I support rewarding behavior in small ways (like maybe some small compliments if warranted), but I am not a fan of this whole “OMG he did some housework once without being asked! Best person ever!” thing. That would be befitting for a 5 year old, but not for a grown adult.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

@PoM

Ah sorry. Speaking of needing to be good enough for people… 😐

Seth S
Seth S
1 month ago

I’m not entirely sure where people got the impression that celebrating a “crumb of decency” in another person meant throwing a massive party and telling him what a great job he’s doing and a wonderful human being he is and he has finally arrived at True Enlightenment or whatever.

No. It’s a quiet “yay” for this first step, and a grain of hope he continues taking steps in the journey of his recovery. Maybe not all of humanity is irredeemable.

Which, I don’t know about anyone else, but given the things going on in my life, personally, such assurance has been very hard to find lately, and it’s been extremely – exhaustingly – discouraging.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Seth S

Which, I don’t know about anyone else, but given the things going on in my life, personally, such assurance has been very hard to find lately, and it’s been extremely – exhaustingly – discouraging.

I’m sorry. It’s been hard for a lot of us, and I guess you and I just have different reactions. Me, I’m rather jaded at this point so I’m more cynical. If you feel differently, you do you. I can only speak for myself.