“IncelExit” is a small subreddit devoted to helping those who’ve fallen into the incel rabbit hole and who are looking for “support and help with a pathway out.” It brings together “normies” who want to help with incels actually willing to listen to advice — a rarity in most incel communities, where every proposed solution is denounced as a “cope” or worse.
Some of the most inspiring posts and comments in IncelExit come from incels or almost-incels who have managed to figure out their own way out. I ran across this one during a recent visit to the subreddit:
I think he’s on to something here. There’s no better cure for either the “red pill” and the “black pill” than an understanding of what life is really like for women in our society — paying attention to what women say about their lives rather than giving yourself over to red pill fantasies in which every women is riding the “cock carousel” and having sex with a different Chad every night. Those fantasies are only convincing to people who’ve trapped themselves within the thought bubble of the manosphere, where all knowledge or supposed knowledge about women comes from the mouths of other men (and a miniscule number of red pill women.)
The way for men to learn about the real lives of women is to listen to women, not bitter men. And if you listen carefully enough and long enough, you’ll develop empathy — the same empathy that xSeyoo credits for pulling out of the incel morass. Men have problems just as women do, but they are hardly the most persecuted creatures on planet earth.
Looking through his comment history on Reddit, I see that in the month since he posted this comment he’s actually found himself a girlfriend, so he’s no longer even an “incel by definition.” Indeed, his rejection of incel logic has enabled to do what most incels would consider impossible at his age. I wish him the best.
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@Threp
I take how they speak to one another in their own spaces very seriously. Incels are notorious for portraying themselves as harmless sad sacks worthy of pity and help when amongst others, but they are extremely toxic in their own spaces. This is sort of an incel space so how they speak there amongst themselves provides valuable information. Even the “exited” ones seem to frequently still believe in biological imperatives, for instance, and the comments on the online dating guide are less about trying to find someone compatible with you and more about trying to play the numbers game with women.
@PoM
I see a sort of similar tendency with supposedly “breadpilled” alt right people who read some theory books and claim to be leftists. Many of them claim to be reformed but continue to use slurs to be “edgy” and criticize anyone who calls them out as a “wokescold.” They claim to be deradicalizing the right, but it feels like they’re just making the left more toxic. I’m seeing the same thing here with the supposedly exited incels. And maybe I’m just a cynic, but I know the danger of these types if they get into left wing spaces (in this case danger to women especially).
I see this kind of thing not as white nationalists reforming themselves, but as an effort white nationalists are making to recruit white leftists. Particularly white male leftists. The dirtbag left already scorns discussion of any oppression other than class oppression and resents leftists who take an intersectional approach so much that they’re obvious easy marks for the alt right if the alt right makes it seem like they’re for economic policies that will largely benefit white men.
Sorry for the run on sentences.
@WWTH
And this is why I can’t stand Chapo Trap House. Last I heard they’re now claiming that cops are working class so we should have solidarity with them. They’re either rewording the alt right to appeal to lefty dudebros, or they’re Nazbols. Neither is a good prospect for the left.
I don’t trust this at all.
This is well worth a read.
A lot of what has been discussed here before; but all the issues succinctly collated.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/
Further to elections.
Arnie has offered to pay for polling stations to stay open that are to be closed for ‘budget’ reasons.
https://www.gucmakale.com/wp/arnold-schwarzenegger-offers-to-pay-to-reopen-polling-centers-across-the-us-so-everyone-can-vote/
@Naglfar:
Seriously? They’re guard labor for the wealthy, when they aren’t just plain Gestapo thugs of course. A proper socialist society would have little need of them. Someone to manage drunk’n’disorderlies I suppose and maybe to intervene in arguments that threaten to get violent, but certainly no patrols along beats. There’d be little motivation for thievery and what exclusions of access were needed to avert tragedies of the commons would probably be achieved with the judicious application of padlocks here and there.
@Alan Robertshaw:
Wait, what? Last I checked, he was a Republican.
@nobody in particular: The choice of article photo is interesting. An argument could be made that Troi was one of the most feminist characters at that time on television. Consider this: she presented very feminine (and for some reason often went out in public in her pajamas) and had a “feminine” job for one of the hats she wore … and was a key trusted advisor of the captain, generally taken seriously if she offered an opinion or insight at a meeting, and not assumed by everyone in the crew to be an airheaded bimbo, a sex object, or otherwise not to be taken seriously. Her position on the bridge established her as the captain’s strong left hand. (Being a fairly reliable living lie detector obviously helped with that.) Late in the series she takes a difficult test needed to advance toward command ranks, which involves proving oneself capable to order a crewmember onto a suicide mission if it would save everybody else, and passes, so no depiction of her as “too emotional and feminine” to make tough decisions; indeed an explicit repudiation of that myth, involving easily the most feminine-presenting character.
In short, she succeeds as a woman, and not by being “one of the guys” and downplaying her femininity either. The future society she is in is shown as not requiring a woman to repudiate her femininity if she wishes to be taken seriously outside of traditionally “feminine” contexts (in her case, outside of when she’s being the ship’s therapist — so, on the bridge, in the briefing room, and during that test, in particular).
Thoughts?
(Notably, the same captain’s other commonplace source of advice, outside of specific technical areas, was a woman of color, though there was at least a whiff of the problematic “magical Negro” trope in her case.)
@Surplus
He is, though to be fair he has been a pretty vocal critic of Trump’s regime. This is probably because he grew up in Austria post-war and knows exactly what fascism does to a country.
Fun fact regarding Arnold Schwartznagger, InfoWars at one time was pushing a conspiracy that he was a Nazi and was part of a plot to infiltrate the US and make it a Nazi state. The elite were going to pass a constitutional amendment to allow immigrants to become president and would run Arnie. During the Bush 43 administration, my mom’s co-worker gave her some burned DVDs of InfoWars conspiracy documentaries and this was one of the topics.
Of course, now that white nationalist authoritarianism has for real come to pass, Alex Jones et al have embraced it. But there was a time they pretended to oppose.
One of the other DVDs was about how George W Bush murdered JFK Jr. Good times. I may still have those DVDs somewhere.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m sceptical as fuck, but I’m congratulating him like I train puppies, excessive positive reinforcement establishes good behaviour. Also, I needed some good news, and sometimes take what I can get.
@WWTH : the thing important to them is if the dictators is from their group or not. In fact, the reason for which they see plot to impose a totalitarian governement is that it’s what they seek to do.
Just, they want to be sure the dictator is to their liking. Funnily, the best they can do is fail, because if they succeed, the fate of the SA await them.
I don’t particulary like Schwartznagger, but he more or less stuck to his gun in being a “centrist” republicain. On one hand you can easily found a lot of problem in his administration ; on the other he isn’t significantly different from Obama I guess. If he really pay from his pocket for polling station it would be a strong sign that he didn’t sell his soul. There have to be some republicains who stuck to be vaguely malevolent and not downright evil I guess.
It’s gotten to the point where I feel kind of shocked to hear people openly admitting to being Republicans, like on TV, where everyone can hear them.
Re: Schwarzenegger: he’s politically not horrible as Republicans go, but he’s also a serial sexual harasser, so fuck him regardless. He gets no cookies from me.
@Policy of Madness
@Seth S
I think I kind of agree with both of you: it should be difficult for ex-incels to earn our trust given their previous toxicity, but at the same time, I think it’s okay to express approval of even small positive steps. Responding, “Not good enough; fuck you,” when someone takes the first step out of manospherian toxicity doesn’t exactly provide an incentive to keep going.
Obviously this needs the caveat that being nice to fuckboys is a lot of emotional labour, and if you’re not willing/able to do that it’s okay.
@Citerior Motive
I don’t think that’s what Policy of Madness said. The ex-incel still sounds a lot like an incel and seems like has a long way to go. Patting him on the back excessively now might convince him he doesn’t have anything else to do. It’s a start, but I don’t think that we should be rewarding people for the bare minimum.
Also? No reason to assume he’s reading this, and I’m not going to hold back what I think just in case he is.
(And TBH that’s another thing he probably needs to get used to: that for some women, he’ll simply never be good enough, and that has to be okay. Seriously that’s not even a problem limited to men, I *still* struggle with accepting I’ll never be good enough for some people – as a white woman that’s super important in antiracist work, and honestly I still suck at it.)
Anyway yeah because I’m feeling tired but generous right now, I’m gonna drop a bunch of advice for any incels or proximate guys reading this who are questioning where they’re at:
Learn to lean on other men for emotional support, and support them in turn. Not just when you’re drunk or stoned either.
Learn to walk away from notions of virginity and sexual experience. These things are constructs, not physical reality – there are people who don’t like or can’t have PIV sex and are more experienced than you. (Hi, I’m one of them.)
Learn a hobby. Learn something artistic. Learn to knit, learn to sing, learn to cook – and not just for self sufficiency or to impress women, but to find joy in your cooking. Learn how to dance. Learn yoga (there are numerous apps available for it). If you’re thinking martial arts, learn tai chi first, or something else slow and pretty and useless in a fight.
If you like reading, read books by women – not necessarily feminist ones, pulpy genre fiction is cool too. If you like watching TV and films, watch stuff that centers on female characters – it doesn’t have to be good, just something other than the male perspective. Learn to live in female characters’ heads, understand what they’re feeling, actually empathize, instead of just seeing their bodies and objectifying them. Find forms of entertainment that aren’t video games, and that don’t center violence. (That last one is hard TBH, I’m still working on that.)
Learn about skin care, hair care, how to select clothing by color. Browse thrift stores (online ones now, what with the plague) and cultivate your own personal style. If makeup sounds interesting, learn that too! Find things that you like about your body, and note them in the mirror. Learn to look good for yourself, not just for other people. It’s okay to find yourself attractive sometimes – that’s not pathological narcissism, it’s completely normal.
Find guy friends who are okay with hugs and physical touch (when it’s safe again, anyway). You’re as vulnerable to touch starvation as we are, but men are trained not to help each other with that, and women avoid touching men for fear of rape – and yes, I’m keenly aware of how terrible this is, I used to be male and it made my life almost unbearable. But building that level of trust among men is super important. Women rely all the time on people who aren’t their partners, or who aren’t even attractive to them, for touch support; men can learn to do that too.
Learn to take care of houseplants. Learn to garden. Learn to take care of a pet, and get one. Get to where you’re entirely comfortable baby-talking to your pet (or your plants) in front of strangers.
If the Horny Demon makes you feel awful all the time, there are actual medical interventions for that. Finasteride kills male libido for instance, and also makes your skin clearer and keeps you from going bald. This isn’t an intervention to be taken lightly, but like… if you feel like your sexuality makes you unable to function, it’s okay to talk to your doctor about it. It doesn’t make you any less a man, or any less a person. Just as for women, there is more to you than sex; sex is not your only purpose in life, and it’s okay to want to escape your libido instead of satisfying it.
Learn to channel your anger into things that make the world better. Learn to cry instead of yelling or hitting things. Learn to cry from positive emotions, not just negative ones. Make a list of songs and film scenes that bring you to tears every time.
Learn to smile more – I know this is super ironic what with how men police women around not smiling, but Resting Douche Face reads to many of us not just as ugly but as a threat. Learn what expressions your face is capable of, and build your awareness of them. Watch yourself in a mirror and see what works, or just make yourself laugh with ridiculous goblin faces. It’s okay to laugh at yourself too, as long as you do it gently and lovingly.
Find a cause to fight for – women’s liberation is a good one, just saying – and do so in ways that aren’t violent, without the expectation of reward.
Learn how to masturbate better. I know that sounds utterly weird, but it’s a huge part of women’s and queer liberation, and there’s no reason it can’t help straight men too. Learn to do it without porn; get medical help with that if you need to, seriously, most porn is toxic and addictive by design. Learn to love yourself the same way you’d love a partner. Again, that’s not narcissism, that’s normal. Learn to mentally separate love from respect, and sexual love from romantic and platonic love. Learn to mentally separate sexual pleasure from sexual attraction to other people.
Engage with the idea that you might never have a sexual partner, and learn to disentangle that from your sense of confidence and self-respect. Learn to accept that it’s not something you have full control of, and not something you need to have full control of.
I can’t promise you love and sex. (Though honestly, IME? Those things are more likely to happen when you stop feeling that you need them.) But I can absolutely promise you a better life. Come out into the light, we have cupcakes and balloon animals and personal fulfillment! 🙂
You know, I do get it. Reward the behavior you want to see, and encourage it to see more of it. I understand. I just think that we go overboard to give men kudos for meeting basic standards that they should have been meeting all along.
This reminds me a lot of the trend a couple of years ago of celebrating men for taking care of their own children. Women who take care of their own children don’t get the same kind of accolades that men do; a single father raising children on his own gets a ton of support that single mothers do not. There’s a current trend of giving men applause when they contribute toward keeping a house clean, and edge closer toward 50/50 division of household labor.
I get it. You reward the behavior you want to see. But we don’t give women the same kind of kudos and it’s fucking exhausting to continually be expected to give positive reinforcement, like men are children themselves or circus animals being trained. Men are intelligent beings who are capable of self-motivation and they shouldn’t need me over here cheering them on in order for them to meet minimum standards. If they fail to motivate themselves, because they didn’t get enough head pats, that’s on them and not on me.
@PoM
My long post above wasn’t aimed at you. I agree with you.
@Cyborgette
My comment wasn’t aimed at you either. LOL
@Cyborgette
I would say they should do this if they want to, but if they don’t want that they shouldn’t be obliged to seek it out. Some people really don’t like touch, and that’s okay too.
@PoM
I agree. I support rewarding behavior in small ways (like maybe some small compliments if warranted), but I am not a fan of this whole “OMG he did some housework once without being asked! Best person ever!” thing. That would be befitting for a 5 year old, but not for a grown adult.
@PoM
Ah sorry. Speaking of needing to be good enough for people… 😐
I’m not entirely sure where people got the impression that celebrating a “crumb of decency” in another person meant throwing a massive party and telling him what a great job he’s doing and a wonderful human being he is and he has finally arrived at True Enlightenment or whatever.
No. It’s a quiet “yay” for this first step, and a grain of hope he continues taking steps in the journey of his recovery. Maybe not all of humanity is irredeemable.
Which, I don’t know about anyone else, but given the things going on in my life, personally, such assurance has been very hard to find lately, and it’s been extremely – exhaustingly – discouraging.
@Seth S
I’m sorry. It’s been hard for a lot of us, and I guess you and I just have different reactions. Me, I’m rather jaded at this point so I’m more cynical. If you feel differently, you do you. I can only speak for myself.