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evo psych fairy tales MGTOW misogyny

Oh how I love it when they talk evo psych

Genghis Khan: Blame him for disloyal hoes

Here’s one MGTOW Redditor offering an evo psych explanation as to why, ehrm, “hoes ain’t loyal to the tribe or men in general.”

It's in their genes, because of the many wars in history. To the victor goes the spoils, along with the women. As a survival mechanism women are not as adverse to hostile takeover of a foreign entity. Those that went along with being raped by outsiders were more likely to survive and pass on their genes, and those chldren may have been stronger in general as a result of natural selection via mass death. That's why they don't see a problem with mass immigration, even radical muslims who want to take away their rights.

Weird that these women only passed along their “go ahead and rape me, foreign invader” gene to their daughters and not their sons.

Here’s another lovely story about how evolution makes women recognize when other women look pretty. You may need to read it several times before it makes any sense to you, because apparently evolution didn’t gift this MGTOW dude with the power of unconfusing communication.

Huh. Then why did men decorate themselves with makeup and wigs and all that back in the 18th century? I mean, I may just be a straight man, but I can recognize pretty dudes like these:

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Naglfar
Naglfar
29 days ago

even radical Muslims who want to take away their rights

I think my rights are much more likely to be taken by conservatives from the US than radical Muslims. They’re projecting again.

women are wired up to find other women sexy.

Well, some us are. I find a lot of other women to be good looking, but I’m bisexual so not representative of most women.

social savvy is of critical importance to women in their selection of a mate

Wait, I thought it was all about wrists and facial bones?

which makes them want to be the shiniest and prettiest

I originally read this as saying that he men want to be shiny and pretty. Dudes, if you want to be shiny and pretty, go for it.

Nicole Marianne Nelson
Nicole Marianne Nelson
29 days ago

Looks like someone just took biology 101 so learned about some basic concepts behind sexual selection but used them in a teleological explanation of his weird beliefs. He has crafted his own explanation of the phenomena of personal adornment. He equated it with sexual selected dimorphism, then put it in terms of the end purpose he believes they serve rather than of the environmental selection as the cause driving how they arise.

I used to try to tutor in college then again when I retired. It is far harder to get people to get away from the disinformation, the lack of training in logic, and away from the Lamarckian teleological concept of evolutionary change in species.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy

Those that went along with being raped…

Oh. Oh dear.

Anyhoo… I know Dunning-Kruger gets thrown around a lot these days, but my god if these guys don’t personify it in every single way. I can’t even get annoyed at them, they’re so funny in all their certainty and ignorance.

The other thing that always strikes me on reading comments like these is the complete lack of joy in these men’s lives. Their idea of how society works is just so bleak.

Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
29 days ago

Yes, I yearn to be the shiniest so that I can catch the eye of other women, who will then bed my guy. BlackboxBlackboxBlackbox. And that, MGTOWs, is why you can’t get laid.

happy cat
happy cat
29 days ago

how evolution makes women recognize when other women look pretty.

Yeah, I can tell when a woman is pretty. I also recognise a beautiful sunrise or a cute kitten when I see one. Human beings can do that. This has nothing to do with selecting a mate.

occasional reader
occasional reader
29 days ago

From women as objects to women as literally man sexual characteristic… So much for the evolution…

Moggie
Moggie
29 days ago

Ladies, keep a small spray bottle of cooking oil in your handbag, so that you can spritz up your shininess throughout the day.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
29 days ago

“Assess a man’s value”? Ugh. The sexual marketplace idea needs to wither away, plz.

Alan Robertshaw
29 days ago

@ Vicky P

Assess a man’s value

I’ve seen a few tables over the years that break down the human body into its component parts; and then try to assign values based on market prices. That idea that there’s enough iron in your body to make a nail sort of thing. The tricky bit of course would be isolating the individual elements.

I come out at about 400 quid!

Form a queue ladies; and Phosphorous dealers!

Karalora
Karalora
29 days ago

What burns me about this sort of thing is that evo-psych is always used to excuse men’s actions but further condemn women’s. A man committed rape, harassment, adultery? He’s not evil; evolution made him do it to spread his genes! A woman committed *conspiratorial whisper* hypergamy? Evolution made her EVIL, therefore she cannot change and all women may be presumed equally EVIL and deserving of preemptive punishment!

Last edited 29 days ago by Karalora
Naglfar
Naglfar
29 days ago

@Karalora

What burns me about this sort of thing is that evo-psych is always used to excuse men’s actions but further condemn women’s.

The ethos of the right wing is to create a system where they can judge and not be judged. Or, as Wilhoit put it, “There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”

@Alan Robertshaw
One thing to consider is whether we are selling individual elements or compounds. If we are selling individual elements, some of them (like oxygen) are abundant in the body and fairly expensive in pure form because of the cost of purification. If we’re selling compounds, though, most of that oxygen is in the form of water, which is much cheaper, and separating it from the water would require electrolysis.

OTOH, some compounds found in the body, like vitamin B12 (aka cobalamin), are quite expensive in pure form and are worth way more than their constituent elements would be separately due to the difficulty of synthesis. This prompts a new project: a table of compounds sorted by whether a given amount of the compound costs more than the elements contained within. For some, like many organic compounds, it would cost a lot more, but for others (like oxides and ores), the compound would cost less, as the cost is due to extraction of the elements.

Last edited 29 days ago by Naglfar
Diego
Diego
29 days ago

Evo-psych is not a science, period. These aren’t hypotheses that can be subject to testing and verification. They are claims that are reverse engineered from a determined result, to arrive at a conclusion that best fits the current hierarchical order in society. I don’t think I’ve ever seen evo-psych used in a way that doesn’t justify misogyny, racism, homophobia or the like.

Naglfar
Naglfar
29 days ago

@Diego

I don’t think I’ve ever seen evo-psych used in a way that doesn’t justify misogyny, racism, homophobia or the like.

Nor have I. It’s a collection of just-so stories to explain away bigotry and sound edgy.
XKCD gets it pretty succinctly:
comment image

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
29 days ago

The starting point of evo-psych was possible, and similar ideas have yielded somewhat verifiable results, like the one who hypothesize that the story of Orion is one of the oldest story of mankind.

In actual practice, as Nagflar and Diego showed, it’s a pseudo-science that only serve to justify prejudice via just-so stories. Human behavior is apparently too complex to easily distinguish evolutionary patterns that aren’t trivial.

It’s a bit better than cladistic because it started from an idea that could work, instead of starting as a way to justify bullshit. That don’t make it a science.

North Sea Sparkly Dragon
North Sea Sparkly Dragon
29 days ago

Humans like to tell stories, but sometimes we really need to stop and apply logic to the stories.

I like that black suit, if I had the figure I’d have me one of them made. My sewing isn’t up to that sort of tailoring.

Naglfar
Naglfar
29 days ago

O/T: JK Rowling has continued her descent by plugging a TERF-run apparel shop that makes various transphobic shirts and buttons. Unsurprising, but still quite damaging.

Diego
Diego
29 days ago

@Naglfar

I really hope she gets what’s coming to her and she gets disaffiliated from major companies and speaking at public spaces. Unfortunately, not likely to happen whilst the world keeps in this spiraling trend towards fascism.

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
29 days ago

I’ve posted my arguments against evo-psych in the past and a lot of them boil down to “someone discovered intro-level sociology, but decided it needed a dose of biology-as-destiny to make it Real Science.”

Like, the second poster almost kinda makes sense, in that fashion is a language and being able to decode and perform it is a useful social ability— but it’s a learned skill, not some hereditary instinct that only expresses in women.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
29 days ago

The main argument against evo-psyche is that it doesn’t make testable hypotheses. It’s not a science if it’s not testable.

The secondary argument against it is that it is nearly impossible, with humans, to distinguish between instinct and learned culturally-instilled behaviors. Like, we know that infants have an instinct to turn their head toward a touch on the cheek, which assists with nursing, but any human older than the potato stage is steeped in culture. The difference between culturally-instilled behavior and instinctive behavior can’t be sussed out.

Evo-psyche proponents never seem to acknowledge either of those issues or propose any sort of even tenuous solution to them. They just keep spouting stories, starting with the conclusion and working back toward observation, which is the opposite of how science actually functions.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
29 days ago

The Atlantic did a piece on the upcoming election.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/

My advice to everyone here would be: Vote. Then arm yourselves and batten down the hatches, or just GTFO where possible …

Naglfar
Naglfar
29 days ago

@Diego

I really hope she gets what’s coming to her and she gets disaffiliated from major companies and speaking at public spaces.

Unfortunately, that’s unlikely seeing as she recently released a new book and there’s a new Harry Potter video game coming out next year, which will give her a renewed boost of popularity. So far the most that’s happened to her seems to be that Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights rescinded her award (which she then tried to return in true “you can’t fire me, I quit” fashion) and a bunch of the actors from the HP films condemned her. She’s also lost around 300,000 Twitter followers, but that’s a drop in the bucket given that she still has 14.3 million.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
29 days ago

It’s kind of like someone had a vague memory of the sexy son hypothesis and decided to make it all about how women aren’t people but somehow extensions of men.

@Policy of Madness
It’s pretty strange how some go straight to assuming biological differences will explain all perceived differences between men and women.

I remember reading a Finnish question-and-answer type of column where some guy had recently seen a lot of women who habitually stood with their toes pointing inwards. He wanted to know whether this had something to do with the female pelvis, despite the fact that he had apparently seen a whole lot women not stand with their toes pointing inwards, since otherwise he wouldn’t have just recently started wondering about it.

Last edited 29 days ago by Masse_Mysteria
Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
29 days ago

It’s like they really do think we’re completely different species, which, come to think of it, also seems to be the belief of some transphobes.

Naglfar
Naglfar
29 days ago

@Moon Custafer

It’s like they really do think we’re completely different species, which, come to think of it, also seems to be the belief of some transphobes.

I remember at least one TERF claiming that men have more in common with male chimpanzees than women, so they really do believe that.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
29 days ago

@Alan

Oh, yeah – I’ve seen that thought experiment before! Of course, you’d get more money per body if you could sell the parts (blood, eggs, sperm, organs) rather than breaking everything down to the elements.

(Personally, I don’t mind the idea of selling blood or gametes, but trafficking in other organs squicks me right out.)

Dalillama
29 days ago

I used to have a book detailing how much all the various organs and fluids of your body were worth, along with advice on where and how to sell them.

Naglfar
Naglfar
29 days ago

@Dalillama

where and how to sell them.

Iran is the only country where it is legal to sell human organs, so I assume elsewhere you’d have to go black market to sell most organs. Fluids I’m not sure about.

Dalillama
29 days ago

@Naglfar
This was ~20 years ago now, but it was still mostly about fluids, cos you can only sell so many organs before you hit one you need more than any amount of money.

Viscaria
Viscaria
29 days ago

Weird that these women only passed along their “go ahead and rape me, foreign invader” gene to their daughters and not their sons.

Evo-psych misogynists are big believers in the “Lady and the Tramp” theory of heredity. It’s 1000 scientific.

https://movies.disney.com/lady-and-the-tramp-2-gallery?image_id=52f533150a172d5ba8007bf7

Oops, sorry, not sure why my image didn’t work. I guess because it’s a link to a slideshow and not the image itself. Sorry!

Last edited 29 days ago by Viscaria
Kimstu
Kimstu
29 days ago

@Naglfar:

So far the most that’s happened to her seems to be that Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights rescinded her award (which she then tried to return in true “you can’t fire me, I quit” fashion)

? Sorry for nitpicking a subject that’s O/T anyway, but I’m confused about how that version squares with the news story I read,

As far as I can tell, the RFKHR organization didn’t retract or rescind Rowling’s award from last year, but the president of RFKHR recently published a statement criticizing (and rightly so, in my opinion) Rowling’s transphobic remarks. So Rowling then voluntarily returned the award “because of the very serious conflict of views between myself and RFKHR”.

And, again IMO, that was the right thing for her to do (well, not as right as belatedly recognizing the problem with her transphobic comments and wholeheartedly apologizing for them, but apparently the rightest thing possible for her given her obstinate bigotry on the subject).

Hanging on to a commendatory award from an organization that has subsequently expressed a clear wish to dissociate itself from you just looks greedy and desperate.

bekabot
bekabot
29 days ago

Weird that these women only passed along their ‘go ahead and rape me, foreign invader’ gene to their daughters and not their sons.

I dunno. Since most of these men palpably yearn for a strongman to bow down to, and since they spend minutes/hours/days/weeks/months/years discussing the virtues of doing exactly that, and since they vote and politick in ways which frustrate their own interests, and since they never stop complaining that they can’t operate outside a super-draconian pecking order, and that they claim to be purposeless and lost unless they can count on regular punishments from Dad, you could argue that the women they’re talking about passed their ‘go ahead and rape me’ genes to their sons too. Sometimes it sure seems that way.

Naglfar
Naglfar
29 days ago

@Kimstu

As far as I can tell, the RFKHR organization didn’t retract or rescind Rowling’s award from last year, but the president of RFKHR recently published a statement criticizing (and rightly so, in my opinion) Rowling’s transphobic remarks. So Rowling then voluntarily returned the award “because of the very serious conflict of views between myself and RFKHR”.

Apologies, I must be remembering the incident wrong. I thought I read some story where they said she couldn’t return it because they’d already retracted it.

Karalora
Karalora
29 days ago

The ethos of the right wing is to create a system where they can judge and not be judged. Or, as Wilhoit put it, “There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”

For sure. But in this case they seem particularly unaware of the contradiction, as if it’s perfectly natural to excuse one group on the grounds of biology but condemn the other on those same grounds.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
29 days ago

@Bekabot

Since most of these men palpably yearn for a strongman to bow down to …

Well said. Whole lot, not just the snippet I used.

They need one. They know they need one. It’s the only way they’re ever going to sniff the bicycle seat of power* – by being some strongman’s mooks.

All this frantically trying to be alpha crap they do – it’s all an admission of their own failures.

*sorry for the mental image – it just seemed the most pathetic thing someone’s actually done that I could think of to illustrate!

Lucy Montrose
Lucy Montrose
29 days ago

@Naglfar, @Diego and others:
I had a look at a link someone posted here a few days ago, to a TERF twitter feed. And it was some of the scariest shit I’ve seen in a while.

I mean… these “feminists” are trying to reduce women to biology– what feminists have been trying to get us away from for the last century– and saying “I’m sorry, it’s science”. They’re brandishing science like a religious edict.

Even worse, they’re disparaging adoption. They’re pushing the line that adoptive parents will never be real parents, only bio-parents are… an idea I thought had really come and gone.
Seems like no bad idea has ever really come and gone! If someone wants to bring a horrible idea back from the dead, they will do it, and we will have to keep going over the same ground, over and over again.

At the very least, you see exactly what TERFs’ true colors are– anti-love, anti-freedom, and pro-restrictive family, gender and societal roles.
And they call that respecting science, because they know people will listen to that when they’d just tune out if they’d been talking about tradition. They’re pandering to reasonable people in language they know will be listened to. These impostors must be stopped!

Last edited 29 days ago by Lucy Montrose
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
29 days ago

I don’t think I’ve ever seen evo-psych used in a way that doesn’t justify misogyny, racism, homophobia or the like.

I have, but only in college classes when I was majoring in psych. Example, gossip is beneficial and we evolved to do it because before mass media, that was how communities spread news.

Not defending evo-pysch or disagreeing that it’s primarily used to justify bigotry though!

Naglfar
Naglfar
29 days ago

@Lucy Montrose

If someone wants to bring a horrible idea back from the dead, they will do it, and we will have to keep going over the same ground, over and over again.

See also: their resurrection of phrenology, gold star discourse, bi/pan lesbian exclusionism, and a thousand other things that we had moved on from until TERFs brought them back.

And they call that respecting science, because they know people will listen to that when they’d just tune out if they’d been talking about tradition.

Of course, the scientific consensus is diametrically opposed to what they say. Science overwhelmingly affirms trans people and transition and rejects binarist sex essentialism. I’m also fairly certain a decent chunk of TERFs are anti-vaxxers, so they’re probably anti science in other ways as well.

Speaking of shitty Twitter threads, this one is shitty in a different way:
https://twitter.com/westerninfidel/status/1308089324664225792
TL;DR is some tradwife doesn’t want women to vote, but repeatedly shoots herself in the foot trying to justify her position and making bigger and bigger leaps of logic.

Last edited 29 days ago by Naglfar
TB Tabby
TB Tabby
29 days ago

Employ a little Occam’s Razor, boys. Which of these is a more likely reason as to why women would “go along with” being raped by foreign invaders?

  • An inherent, genetic lack of loyalty
  • They would’ve been killed if they hadn’t
Naglfar
Naglfar
29 days ago

@WWTH
I can imagine the manosphere spin on that would be something along the lines of “the womenz spread fake news through gossip, bad!”

Kimstu
Kimstu
28 days ago

@Lucy M.:

Even worse, they’re disparaging adoption. They’re pushing the line that adoptive parents will never be real parents, only bio-parents are… an idea I thought had really come and gone.

Holy TOLEDO. I was just recently arguing to a “gender-critical” ideologue that saying “transgender women are women” is merely like saying “adoptive mothers are mothers”: each of them relates to a social category that can include individuals who don’t match the original biological criteria for that category.

But I never knew that there were GCs already using that analogy to argue that adoptive mothers aren’t in fact mothers! Golly, transphobia really does make everything it touches that much shitelier.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
28 days ago

@bekabot:

I dunno. Since most of these men palpably yearn for a strongman to bow down to, and since they spend minutes/hours/days/weeks/months/years discussing the virtues of doing exactly that, and since they vote and politick in ways which frustrate their own interests, and since they never stop complaining that they can’t operate outside a super-draconian pecking order, and that they claim to be purposeless and lost unless they can count on regular punishments from Dad, you could argue that the women they’re talking about passed their ‘go ahead and rape me’ genes to their sons too. Sometimes it sure seems that way.

Have you read Altemeyer’s “The Authoritarians”? This makes one wonder if there’s some level of heredity to the high-RWA trait.

P.S. What happened to your avatar?

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
28 days ago

…I feel like maybe the majority of human births haven’t been the result of warlords raping captive women? Why is that the source of all human nature?

Naglfar
Naglfar
28 days ago

@Buttercup

Why is that the source of all human nature?

Racist asshat and House Member from Iowa Steve King (not to be confused with the horror writer) trotted out a similar argument last year to oppose abortion. It’s very telling that conservatives can only see human nature as rape and can’t see any positive aspects of existence.

Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
28 days ago

@WWTH

[G]ossip is beneficial and we evolved to do it because before mass media, that was how communities spread news.

I’ve actually seen a feminist take on gossip: Women do it (and have done it for eons) to stay safe. The whisper network can steer a woman away from a rapist or a batterer. That said, of course men gossip too.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
28 days ago

Evo-psych tend to focus on non-testable hypothesis because most actually testable one proved false or way more complicated than expected. Generally, the one that stand to test are also the one who are so simple they are meaningless (“human have developped how to share all kind of information via gossip” NO SHIT SHERLOCK)

That being said, culture is as much a part of ourselves and of our hereditary characteristic than gut flora or DNA, so the distinction between instinct and learned culturally-instilled behavior is pretty meaningless. Or rather, there’s little useful information in knowing that a behavior is stored in culture or in DNA since both seem equally hard to change (that is, not all that difficult but still need a decent effort)

epitome of incomrepehensibility

The first post is pretty horrible in its implications. Not just racist, but also justifying rape (because today’s women apparently evolved not to mind it). Fuck that and not in a sexual way.

The second one – okay, stupid, but it made me laugh. I dunno, I just like the phrasing “shiniest and prettiest.” SHINIEST AND PRETTIEST!