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fatphobia MGTOW misogyny reddit

It’s “cruel” to tell fat women they’re beautiful, MGTOWs agree

For some strange reason, hateful people spend a great deal of their time explaining to people that they’re not hateful, really, just misunderstood. Literal Klan members will swear up and down that they’re not racist; misogynists insist they don’t really hate women. And those who hate fat people will try to pretend that they’re just worried about said fat people’s health.

In the MGTOW2 subreddit — a supposedly non-hateful spinoff of the original MGTOW subreddit — one of these fat haters has announced to the world that he doesn’t “hate obese women. Feminists do.”

“The so-called fat acceptance movement claims that anyone who doesn’t rave about the alleged beauty of obese women hates them,” he wrote.

That’s not true. I don’t hate obese women. I just don’t think I’m obligated to lie to them.

… by telling them they look nice.

Furthermore, I think feminists are being cruel to obese women by lying to them that they look wonderful when they don’t. I don’t go all out of my way to insult fat women. I just leave them alone. I just won’t lie to them and give them false hope. I find that wrong.

The problem, as he sees it, is that all obese women are by definition ugly, so treating them as anything but ugly monsters is mean.

If a woman is obese, it’s impossible for her to look attractive. That’s just the way it is. I don’t think it’s being kind to her to hide that truth with some bogus narrative that says all women are beautiful.

How noble this fellow is for never giving a fat woman a compliment.

That’s bogus BS. If you tell her she can be super attractive with enough inner beauty even if she weighs 400 pounds and has cellulite, you’re just setting her up for failure. That’s how you would treat someone you hate.

How hateful it is to be nice to fat people!

Naturally, this bold truth-teller was recieved warmly by his fellow MGTOWs.

“I don’t hate fat woman,” wrote one,

but I do hate that they’re forced on us on tv shows. Not that I watch network tv but the occasional ad I catch that has a young fatty as a protagonist makes me feel bad about society.

He doesn’t hate fat women; he just hates seeing evidence that they exist on television.

“This is women jeopardizing women; nothing new lol,” wrote another.

Like how post-wall feminists convinced young women to cut their hair short because “it’s not their obligation to look a certain way for men” while I was just a simple guy that wants a long haired beautiful girl for myself then suddenly I was branded sexist/mysogynist like wtf lol. Just one of the things I realized when I went MGTOW

Ah yes, the well-known plot of older women sneakily convincing their younger rivals to cut their hair short. Definitely happened.

Then there was this guy, who didn’t even pretend that he wasn’t hateful.

The evil part of me wants to support the “beauty at any size” movement because that means more fat people dying.

What a lovely group of non-hateful men.

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LaterSpaceCowboy
1 month ago

@Naglfar

Since you specifically asked and I am a man, I will say that my preference is long hair in men, women, and non-binary people generally speaking. Short hair looks too much like The Man and his idea of corporatist rank-and-file sameness. Though occasionally I will see someone with a pixie cut that looks ferocious as hell, especially if they have an asym side-buzz. But I don’t think I represent most men, though I was raised in the United States by conservative parents so I am certainly thoroughly steeped in toxic masculinity, no question about it.

North Sea Sparkly Dragon
North Sea Sparkly Dragon
1 month ago

“The so-called fat acceptance movement claims that anyone who doesn’t rave about the alleged beauty of obese women hates them,” he wrote.

I might have missed it, because I’ve only skimmed so far, but this is a complete and utter misunderstanding of the fat acceptance movement. Unfortunately it’s a common one. It’s a way for fatphobic prats to hide their fear and hate of fat people. The fat acceptance movement is a social justice movement for the accommodation of fat people. Stop trying to make us smaller, stop bullying is, accommodate us the way other marginalised people are accommodated. I know that acceptance of disabled people is a long way off still, so I have limited hopes of fat people being accepted, but the point of fat acceptance is to try to get that.
And as someone who actually is over 400lbs, people usually don’t realise and disbelieve me when I tell them. It helps that I’m also 177cm (about 5 foot 9,5 inches). I have always been tall, broad and big, while my sisters are taller than average but slighter. I take after my dad, they take after my mum. I have photos of me at 6 with my sisters. If you squished my sisters together you’d make one me. I also used to be incredibly active (age, illness and lack of access has reduced my activity), I was still fat. At my most active, I was still classified as ‘obese’ – this is a weasel word with no static definition – it changes as society tells it to.

Last edited 1 month ago by North Sea Sparkly Dragon
Crip Dyke
1 month ago

@Threp

After the 3 weeks of protesting with so much tear gas thrown my way I did have some lingering unhealthiness, but it’s hard to say exactly what symptoms might have been caused by the (expired) tear gas since I have a metabolic disorder which fucks with my bones & causes chronic pain & some other problems. I stopped going when my BFF had to go back to the east coast to visit her mom, so I didn’t even have her to compare symptoms with.

Which is to say that there were almost certainly some lingering effects, but I’m not assuming I know exactly what they were or exactly how long they lasted without any ability to cross-reference my experience with others.

Since the most widely reported side effect of exposure to expired tear gas was fucked up fertility & menstrual cycles, though, I can at least say that the gas didn’t cause any periods to come early or late, and I didn’t have a harder time getting pregnant during those weeks.

jason-the-cripple
jason-the-cripple
1 month ago

The most beautiful woman I have ever known personally is overweight.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

@Crip Dyke

Good! Sounds like you’ll be none the worse for it – far as I remember there’s no real long term effects unless you dive in a vat of the stuff and go for a swim.

(Might still have the book somewhere in the loft, I’ll double check later. The Army honestly doesn’t give much of a shit about long term stuff with us since it doesn’t reduce our capability in the present, but we do still get studied – we’re handy guinea pigs if nothing else!)

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
1 month ago

My best friend in high school was “over”weight. She could out-hike me, and was very active just in general.

I’m thin. I actually get (unwanted and weird) compliments about that, from older women though not from men. But I also catch colds all the time, and while I’m active I have not much stamina. The healthiest I’ve been was when I was about 6-7 kg/15lbs heavier.

I’d also like to add (maybe it’s been said here already), what’s up with equating good health and morality? Obviously it feels nicer in one’s own body to be healthy, but shaming people for bad health is also messed up, even before we get into declaring that being fat automatically means being unhealthy.

Crip Dyke
1 month ago

what’s up with equating good health and morality

Yep. That’s some seriously awful shit right there.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

I’d also like to add (maybe it’s been said here already), what’s up with equating good health and morality?

There’s lots of causes for that. Off the top of my head you’ve got:

  1. The Calvinist/Puritan* influence – mortifying the flesh is good for the soul
  2. Class influence – the rich tended to be fatter and disposed to diseases of excess, while the “virtuous poor” were wee skinny runts thanks to their limited diet.
  3. the Hippy/New Age influence – “Your body is TEMPLE!!!!!”
  4. The normal human way of thinking – “I’m a good person, therefore anyone not like me is not a good person.”

All stupid. All basically designed to make the thinker feel special.

*I know there’s a lot more religions do this – most of them do to some extent, I think – but those two groups raised it to an art form while still being very influential outside their own communities.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

There is a thin link between weight and morality in that some form of immorality can lead to weight gain. Since peoples cannot into logics, that become the opposite, that being “too” big according to random standard is immoral.

It’s such a striking image for profiteers. The Harkonnen Baron in Dune is the ur-example, and on a symbolic level he work extremely well. Even if, as noted, it’s the immorality the root cause for his body, and not the other way around. IIRC he even flaunt it, because he can afford to be so big he need sci-fi technology to not die, and few people can do that.

(note : while striking, there’s a ton to criticize in thoses book. In particular, one of the children of the Baron is said that “he won’t let himself get fat”. While that’s probably possible in the context of not weighting over a ton like his father, it’s not possible in general)

It’s also powerfully stupid because real-world villains actually don’t tend to get overweight, especially now since throwing endless banquets isn’t the way rich people show their wealths. Zuckerberg isn’t particulary fat, for example.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

@Ohlmann

I’m trying to remember where I saw the quote about some villainous character being “a man of gross tastes and refined intellect” as opposed to of “gross intellect and refined tastes”? But yeah I feel like that second describes the bourgeois pretty well.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Ohlmann

It’s also powerfully stupid because real-world villains actually don’t tend to get overweight, especially now since throwing endless banquets isn’t the way rich people show their wealths. Zuckerberg isn’t particulary fat, for example.

I think this might have more to do with the fact that modern wealthy people can afford foods and nutritionists that the less wealthy may not be able to afford.

The archetype of villains as fat is in a lot of other media as well, for instance Jabba the Hutt, a lot of depictions of 19th century industrialists, many Disney villains, etc.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

… real-world villains actually don’t tend to get overweight,

Villainy (or indeed outright evil) doesn’t grant immunity to social perceptions/expectations. 😛

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

I do kinda feel like the having fat men as villains is… different from with fat women. Men, esp. wealthy and charismatic ones, can get away with being fat up to a point and it’s acceptable, even cool – “Oh he’s a bully, he’s confident, he takes what he wants.” For women, outside some pretty narrow contexts, we’re just expected to be thin – and those “narrow contexts” are about desirability at best, not respect, even in the queer community where softness is in. Being desired by other lesbians isn’t usually objectifying like from straight men but like. It’s not the same as respect. Nobody in this culture is trained to look at a fat woman and say: “She’s confident, she’s strong, she takes up space, she takes what she wants.”

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

Actually TBH if anyone thinks my post above is onto something, I’ll go and suggest reading “Meat Market” by Laurie Penny. It’s one of their older books, short and to the point, and covers this in more detail and with better prose than I can.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

Yes, the baron Harkonnen as a woman would not sent the same vibe at all.

Powerful evil women are almost alway thin. Either because they are super pretty, or because they look like dry husk. One exception if my memory serve well is the principal in Mathilda (the book by Roal Dahl), where IIRC she is tall and big like an ogress.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Cyborgette

narrow contexts

Is that a pun?

As for your main point, I wasn’t trying to compare fat male villains to fat women at all, I was just pointing out that the idea of a fat villain is an established archetype in responsible to Ohlmann.
Looking back further historically, kings were often depicted as large which could, in addition to a signifier of power and taking up space, also show that they had as much food as they wanted.

@Ohlmann
I can think of a few fat female villains, mostly designed to be sexualized in a grotesque way. Anita Sarkeesian has a video about this:
https://youtu.be/1oXzWzMqarU

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Hambeast
Hambeast
1 month ago

So I guess Husbeast has been lying to me (and his two girlfriends!) for years and years now? Huh. Who knew?

Bookworm in hijab said

what’s up with equating good health and morality

In addition to what Threp said, it’s also a handy way to convince people that healthcare isn’t a right and something that has to be earned. It’s a double whammy for us fats because we’re still often treated badly by the medical establishment even if we can afford to buy healthcare.

Ann Hatzakis
Ann Hatzakis
1 month ago

I’ve been “heavy” for over 1/2 of my life. And I remember how while I was walking around 10 MILES a week and eating moderately, that I GAINED 60 pounds because of medication. Now, because I have only been able to shed 30 of those pounds over 4 years, my doctor wants me to consider bariatric surgery. And this is because my BMI is too high for knee surgery….

Joekster
Joekster
1 month ago

I know it’s off topic, and I suspect there will be an open thread on this, but RBG passed last night.

Every single reader who can vote in the US needs to verify their registration and vote. By November, SCOTUS will have a 6-3 conservative majority, and the only way to keep the court from striking down anything a democratic congress attempts to accomplish will be for the 2020 election to bring in a democratic congress and presidency by such a landslide that voter suppression and GOP cheating won’t matter (because SCOTUS will uphold whatever shenanigans the GOP comes up with), and then for that congress to expand the court to 13 justices- but that can only happen if the dems have the house, senate, and White House.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

… it’s also a handy way to convince people that healthcare isn’t a right and something that has to be earned.

Bingo. Blind spot for me with us having the NHS, so it never even crossed my mind as a factor (such is health privilege). But it most definitely is one.

Last edited 1 month ago by Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Joekster

then for that congress to expand the court to 13 justices

Can we do that? The court used to fluctuate in number of justices, but it’s been fairly static for the last few decades. Would it be constitutional to expand it? If so, it would be a good idea.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

…and because it’s Rosh Hashanah, evangelicals are going off about the Rapture again.
https://twitter.com/C_Stroop/status/1307356131728056322

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

@Naglfar

I wish more space were made for, like, Jewish anger about the way Christians (esp. white Christians) view us – the savior mentality, the fetishization, the dehumanization and hatred of our bodies, all of it. Pretty much my whole life I’ve been angered almost to the point of violence by people trotting out “Jesus loves you!” or “I bring Good News!”, and I had no idea until the last couple years that this is normal Jewish feelings. I swear the way Christian society views us, alienates us from our ability to see and understand our own anger at the religion that persecutes us.

Dalillama
1 month ago

what’s up with equating good health and morality?

This is the US we’re talking about. Everything that you do or have happen to you is a moral judgement upon you

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

Would it be constitutional to expand it?

Meant to reply to this earlier, but missus decided we’d do the shopping tonight instead of tomorrow (the rumblings of a London lockdown got her spooked some)

There’s nothing in the constitution to prevent the court being expanded – I know both parties have considered it over the years. Only thing that’s really prevented it happening is neither party have had both a bulletproof majority AND the presidency for decades.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Cyborgette

I wish more space were made for, like, Jewish anger about the way Christians (esp. white Christians) view us – the savior mentality, the fetishization, the dehumanization and hatred of our bodies, all of it. Pretty much my whole life I’ve been angered almost to the point of violence by people trotting out “Jesus loves you!” or “I bring Good News!”, and I had no idea until the last couple years that this is normal Jewish feelings. I swear the way Christian society views us, alienates us from our ability to see and understand our own anger at the religion that persecutes us.

I hear you. And all the times they claim to be pro-Jewish because they like Netanyahu, or the condescending explaining (goysplaining?) of why Trump/the GOP/Evangelicalism is good for Jews, actually. And then there’s the Jews for Jesus who tell us they’re the real members of our own people and that they somehow know us better than we do.

It’s even more complicated for me because although I was raised Jewish my father comes from a Christian background and even though he isn’t practicing, his side of the family does all the stuff you’ve described. At any family reunion I have to be very careful not to bring up my religion lest I unleash it all.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

@Naglfar

Oh oof, my sympathies re family. Jewish family stuff is hard enough by itself. 😉

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
1 month ago

@ Cyborgette,

I second you (third you? With Naglfar seconding?). Would add as well, the blaming of you for your own dehumanization at their hands. They do that to us too; I suppose it is how they justify their evil.

Would you say a feeling of powerlessness about this is also common among Jews? I know that for Muslims, we often seem to feel sort of hopeless about it… like, there is so much bad, what can I even do?

Maybe we should team up to form our own league of superheros to address this. We could have the coolest costumes. (Sarcastic humour = coping mechanism 😂)

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

@Bookworm

Thanks, and my sympathies. 🙁

Re: powerlessness. Oh dear gods yes, feeling powerless and helpless is super common for us. We’ve internalized it to the point it’s almost cultural TBH; I didn’t learn that Jews fought back during the Holocaust in any way until I was in my 20s. And it goes back a long way; in medieval Europe we were mostly forbidden from owning weapons or serving in militaries. (Because Jews, including the ones working as financiers, were literal property of the gentile nobility – we lived entirely at their mercy, so obviously any tools of rebellion had to be taken away.)

The counterbalance to this obviously being Israeli military machismo, which… is even more toxic. I’m hoping resurgent Jewish leftism provides a less toxic alternative, with strength in collectivism and mutual support instead of individualism and military prowess.

(And IDK if that’s exactly what you were talking about, but like… yeah, TBH I feel like the learned helplessness of being Jewish has been as big in my life as that of being queer and that of being a woman.)

Re superheroes: I feel like there’s definitely a joke in there about police being unkosher. 🙂

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Bookworm

Would you say a feeling of powerlessness about this is also common among Jews?

Yes, I would say it is. We are a tiny minority in America and most of the world, conspiracy theories notwithstanding, so it occasionally does feel like we have no control.

Maybe we should team up to form our own league of superheros to address this. We could have the coolest costumes.

Well, since so many superheroes were invented by Jewish comic book artists (Superman, Iron Man, Spider-Man, the X-Men, and at least a dozen others) I’d say we’ve at least got a starting point for a league of superheroes. Superman in particular has some interesting Jewish allegories in his backstory, to the point that the Nazis actually issued a statement denouncing him. Superman also may have been loosely inspired by Jewish strongman Zishe Breitbart, who toured America a few years before the first Superman comic under the name “The Superman of the Ages.” Come to think of it, the number of superheroes created by Jewish authors might be a response to the persecution that Jews have faced over the years.

I don’t know off the top of my head any superheroes created by Muslim authors, though I’m sure there are some.

(Sarcastic humour = coping mechanism

This is true for us Jews as well, at least half of Jewish humor is a coping mechanism for dealing with our struggles.

@Cyborgette

I didn’t learn that Jews fought back during the Holocaust in any way until I was in my 20s.

This is a big one for me. In my years of education there was little to no mention of this, and all the books seemed to show Jews as passive rather than fighting back. I don’t want to draw a comparison between antisemitism and racism, but I will say that I find this aspect similar to how slave rebellions in the Americas are often erased from history books.

Because Jews, including the ones working as financiers, were literal property of the gentile nobility – we lived entirely at their mercy, so obviously any tools of rebellion had to be taken away.

And that feeds all the way back into us being blamed for our own situation. The stereotype of Jews as greedy is from our history as money-lenders, so society comes in and DARVOs the situation to paint it all as our fault.

I’m hoping resurgent Jewish leftism provides a less toxic alternative, with strength in collectivism and mutual support instead of individualism and military prowess.

At this point I only tend to want to work with leftists who are PoC, minority religions, LGBTQIPA+, disabled, or some combination thereof. Rather disillusioned with many cishet white leftists at this point.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Interglactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Interglactic Meanie
1 month ago

Speaking of Muslim super-heroes, there was an academic guy who was researching that very topic a couple of years ago, and found what seems to be the first ever Muslim hero in US comics, whose adventures were first published back in 1944. He was charmed by the fours issues the character was in, found he was in the public domain, then went ‘guess who’s getting a revival this decade’. 😀

https://www.comicsbeat.com/interview-a-david-lewis-embraces-kismet/?amp=1

This looks like an interesting take on the ‘WWII person gets revived in the modern era’ trope, if nothing else.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

I remember when I was a wee child and I was explained Jerusalem and Israel.

The moment that stuck with me was the explanation of the powder keg that is Jerusalem and the fact there’s severals important muslim building that would need to get demolished if the temple were to be rebuild. But since the temple isn’t slated to be rebuilt in the foreseeable future, there’s not problem !

And then, the teacher described how some evangelicals were trying to genetically engineer a ginger cow that would fit the description for one of the prerequisite of rebuilding the temple. Because they want to trigger the end of the world. I think it’s where I started losing faith in mankind.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

@Ohlmann

The genetically engineered cow is news to me, but yes, that’s Evangelicals for you. I’ve had my faith in humanity back for a while, but I never recovered my faith in Christians, and to this day I refuse to date practicing ones. (And yes, that very much includes the “Jesus was nonbinary though!” trans crowd.)

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

Like some of this is just personal and me being an angry kvetchy Jewish girl, but like. Christians, including cultural Christians, and most especially practicing white Christians, are going to need to grapple with a LOT of shit about how hypocritical and systematically antisemitic their religion and culture are before we can really have the cultural sea change we need.

For starters: as a Jewish woman, Jesus to me is not only the icon of the oppressor, he is the personification of the Male Savior. Think about it: it is literally assumed that a woman can be nothing, is worth nothing, deserves nothing, unless she submits entirely to this beautiful and all-powerful man. Officially (in most cases) that’s not sexual or romantic submission, but like… Can you see it? Can you see how fucked up it is? The reason “Jesus was nonbinary!” doesn’t ride with me is that baggage – Christianity says that we’re supposed to make ourselves literally the brides of this ancient religious leader. His foreskin is a sacred relic FFS. It’s patriarchy all the way down.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Ohlmann

And then, the teacher described how some evangelicals were trying to genetically engineer a ginger cow that would fit the description for one of the prerequisite of rebuilding the temple. Because they want to trigger the end of the world.

Of course, notably absent from this plan is the input of Jewish people. I’m sure there are a few Ultra-Orthodox folks out there who would favor it, but most of us don’t want to rebuild the temple or have a ginger cow.
Evangelical Zionism was never about the Jewish people. We, like the cow, are sacrificial animals for them. According to their own beliefs, when their beloved rapture is brought about by things they made us do, we will be sent to Hell.

@Cyborgette

“Jesus was nonbinary though!”

Is this something people actually say? I haven’t heard that argument before, but it sounds very suspect because although I lack much knowledge about the New Testament, IIRC Jesus was a cis man. I’ve heard a few people comment that he may have been gay or bisexual, referencing “The Disciple Jesus Loved,” but I don’t know enough to weigh in on that either and it still wouldn’t change the reality we face as Jews in a Christian dominated world.

The thing that annoys me the most is when some supposedly progressive Christians (and even some Jews, e.g. my mother) tell me I shouldn’t criticize Jesus because “he had good intentions.” It’s not about his intentions 2000 years ago, it’s about how his followers are behaving in the modern day. Or when some progressive Christians say that Trump supporting Evangelicals aren’t “Real Christians” and make a No True Scotsman of it. We’ve internalized all this to the point where we can’t even say this without including some disclaimer about “not all Christians.”

BTW: Sorry if I’m getting too ranty, it’s just that it’s Rosh Hashanah and I feel like I need to vent a bit.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
1 month ago

@Snowberry:

Can’t wait for Mitch McConnell’s “let the people decide” words from early 2016 to be thrown in his face. I suspect that won’t make an actual difference, regardless of how things play out.

Oh, that’s already happened. By Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer.
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/schumer-ruth-bader-ginsburg-mcconnell-confirm-senate_n_5f654b55c5b6b9795b108afe?ri18n=true

@Naglfar:

It’s not about his intentions 2000 years ago, it’s about how his followers are behaving in the modern day.

I always liked the quote from John Brunner’s ‘The Sheep Look Up’, where the original founder of the ecoterrorist movement says “I am no more responsible for the actions of my followers than Christ is responsible for those upon whom Paul of Tarsos projected his own personal neuroses.”

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Jenora Feuer

I always liked the quote from John Brunner’s ‘The Sheep Look Up’, where the original founder of the ecoterrorist movement says “I am no more responsible for the actions of my followers than Christ is responsible for those upon whom Paul of Tarsos projected his own personal neuroses.”

Now there’s a book that’s feeling a bit more relevant by the day.

Lucy Montrose
Lucy Montrose
1 month ago

I know where I’ve recently heard this smarmy, pathetic attempt at “compassion” and “pity” that drains all meaning from the words: Sean Hannity.

Overheard a few nights ago from my R family member watching Fox: Hannity concern trollin’ it up with his worries about Biden’s mental faculties.

A bunch of junior Sean Hannities?! Ewww.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
1 month ago

@ Naglfar, you said

At this point I only tend to want to work with leftists who are PoC, minority religions, LGBTQIPA+, disabled, or some combination thereof. Rather disillusioned with many cishet white leftists at this point.

I have felt this way too. Sometimes I feel guilty for thinking it. But too often I’ve been friends with/working with someone who seems like they “get” it, and then they say something that just…proves they don’t.

I often feel like leftists only accept me, as a Muslim, to the degree that I can be their token “one of the good ones”. If my Islam is too overt – if it becomes obvious that I do in fact take it seriously, beyond just, say, wearing cute headscarves – they get very uncomfortable and aaaaaaaalllll their underlying Islamophobia starts emerging. It means I find it hard to trust people who claim to be open-minded. I’m sure I’m not alone in this.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Bookworm

But too often I’ve been friends with/working with someone who seems like they “get” it, and then they say something that just…proves they don’t.

Can relate. So many people who think they’re progressive allies to a group, but then the instant someone from that group calls them out they double down and get angry at that person. It seems a lot of cishet white male leftists really don’t like having to check their privilege.

The biggest red flag to me at this point is how many white male leftists claim to be “deradicalizing” the alt right while using all the alt right’s language. This kind of behavior doesn’t make the alt right less dangerous, it just makes the left more toxic.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
1 month ago

@ Naglfar,

instant someone from that group calls them out

Sometimes not even because of a call-out. Sometimes it’s just spontaneous.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
29 days ago

@Naglfar:
Considering at the end of the book, they’re seeing and smelling the smoke from America over in Ireland… yeah.

Also, the source of the title is very apropos as well, and deliberately so; Brunner knew exactly what he was referencing. From Lycidus, by John Milton, and which was quoted in the epilogue of the novel:

The hungry sheep look up, and are not fed,

But, swoll’n with wind and the rank mist they draw,

Rot inwardly, and foul contagion spread;

It can very much be taken as a rant about how the common people are ignored and not provided for by those in power… and given the time and place of Milton, ‘those in power’ almost certainly included religious power, especially given how often sheep and related words are used as a metaphor for the church and its members.

Dalillama
29 days ago

@Jenora Fuer

Considering at the end of the book, they’re seeing and smelling the smoke from America over in Ireland… yeah.

Unfortunately,
that’s real now.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
29 days ago

@Dalillama:
I was, sadly, aware of that already. But it definitely bears repeating.

Dana C.
Dana C.
24 days ago

As the wife of a man whose favorite spank material is plus-sized lingerie sites, I can attest that not all men feel this way.