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anti-Semitism TERFs transmisogyny transphobia

TERFs and guns: two terrible tastes that taste worse together

Saidit is a “free speech” Reddit clone that’s teeming with the sort of people who tend to get banned from Reddit. That is, the worst. As I noted in a previous post, some of the former denizens of Reddit’s banned Incels subreddit have taken up home there, as have several thousand TERFs, who are trying to recreate the peculiar, er, magic of the recently shut down GenderCritical subreddit.

While most of the r/GenderCritical refugees have ended up in Saidit’s own GenderCritical forum, a few dozen of the more extreme TERFs have founded an even more reactionary Saidit forum called 5thWaveFeminism.

The forum wears its backwards politics on its sleeve, declaring its opposition to

men posing as women, pornsites running trafficking operations and the liberal left kicking out women in favor for these subhumans. We are fed up, hence why we decided to create a whole new wave rejecting left wing/liberal feminism and their hatred of women. This community is proudly anti-antifa and anti-BLM.

We will ban TIM’s, Rapestars and other degenerates. 

TIM, by the way, stands for “Trans-IdentJewsified Male” — TERFspeak for trans women; “Rapestars” is the subreddit’s favorred terminology for “porn stars,” because in their view all porn is rape. Oh, and “degenerate?” That’s just a Nazi dogwhistle. It’s as if TERFs and 4chan had a baby.

So what to these self-declared 5th Wave Feminists like to talk about? The evils of drag and BDSM, and the alleged role of Jews in promoting “parasitic” trans ideology to teens.

And guns. They really like to talk about guns.

One commenter called LoveNotPorn really seems to be looking for an excuse to shoot a trans woman in “self defense.” In a post titled “Encountered a TIM in the wild,” she writes:

Today I went to get some gas and when I went into the gas station a TIM was stood talking to the cashier. They had long blond hair, pink leggings and some kind of vest on, I could tell they were a TIM despite them wearing a mask. I waited until they left and went up to pay for the gas.

Fortunately my state (Mississippi) allows open carry and I was carrying at the time so if he did try to rape or abuse me, I could have defend myself easily and be defended in law.

Yes, I’m sure the random (possibly) trans women you spotted at the gas station was planning to “rape or abuse” you.

The same commenter put up a photo of her and her husband’s guns in another post, so I don’t doubt she really was carrying at the time.

In another post, a commenter called StingingDove fantasizes about performing citizens arrests on people involved in the porn industry.

Does anyone know citizens arrest laws in LA or California AND/OR Canada? Given how pornhub is trafficking CHILDREN and no one is doing anything, i feel the need to perform a citizens arrest on the people behind this brainwashing and the damage to our children.

I do not want my teenage son to ruin his body by becoming transgender from watching porn, i do not want my daughter to become a lesbian and be brainwashed into becoming a pornstar.

Wat.

PORNHUB is trafficking children into their disgusting industry, they have a section that has MEN PRETENDING TO BE WOMEN RAPING TRAFFICKED WOMEN. They have women performing sex acts on other women on the site, which should be illegal, they promote and encourage women to promote their own rape and self rape.

Self rape?

We need to arrest not only the people behind this disgusting site, but also those women who are willing to act and promote these acts.

I will be travelling once the fires have stopped, a friend from WoLF has given me a list of addresses and names of people involved in these crimes. I have been planning how to arrest these people. Does anyone know if i will be put in jail if i carry a gun and handcuffs into california?

I hope this elaborate fantasy remains a fantasy. This is close to QAnon-level derangement.

H/T — Regular commenter Naglfar. Thanks!

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Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Snowberry

Curiously, there are a lot of people who think the opposite. Isn’t that kind of part of the problem?

Yes, part of the problem is that the masses have been listening to propaganda that has normalized fascism and spread lies about left wing ideologies.

Is there a fascist breaking down your door right now? No? Then you have time to think about both the present and the future. Or if you do, metaphorically speaking, then you’re excused, but other people aren’t. I plan to live a very long time and am not looking forward to having to deal with this crap again in 25 years or whenever.

I am thinking about the present and future, I am concerned with the present first because that’s happening now. You seem to be mostly arguing based on semantics rather than disagreement of theory (I think we can both agree that fascism is a threat), but that doesn’t help us in fighting it. Fascists won’t listen to these kinds of arguments. They bought into Trump hook, line, and sinker. Trying to fight fascists with semantics is like attempting fisticuffs when your opponent has a shiv.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

…Before anyone says “we’ll fix the future consequences after we solve the current Nazi problem” you are being very optimistic. History says that it will just get bumped off the tables in favor of some other issue from some previous generation that never really got resolved and will end up not getting fully resolved either in favor of some other issue which was not resolved, and then the Nazi thing will probably pop up again… You want a long life, you don’t have the luxury of centrists forcing you to leave things half-finished. Seriously, NO MORE.

Last edited 1 month ago by Snowberry
Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Snowberry
So how do we fix the future without fixing the present? I can’t see a way to stop future Nazis without dealing with them in the here and now.

Bakunin
Bakunin
1 month ago

How fucking terrified do you have to be to constantly think all trans women want to r*pe you in a goddamned gas station?

Fucking hell, I just want snacks

Dalillama
1 month ago

@Snowberry
Yes. There are armed fascists roaming my city assaulting people like me. This has happened to people I know. They get help from the police while doing this, the same police that have been gassing the BLM protests for 100 nights and counting now. (Hint: this is because the police are also fascists. They also, you may note, regularly go about killing people who resemble my loved ones in socially significant ways. This is really happening, in realtime, and you are still making excuses for it. Why the fuck are you choosing nazi apologetics as the hill you’re going to die on?

Feline
Feline
1 month ago

Curiously, there are a lot of people who think the opposite. Isn’t that kind of part of the problem?

No, because that’s a completely false equivalency. Don’t be this fucking dumb. It looks bad on you.

Is there a fascist breaking down your door right now?

No, but in 2014 there was a gang of neo-nazis who went out hunting for feminists/leftists on the 8th of March and knifed a person into intensive care. They tried your “both sides, eh” self defense argument, but the one (sort-of, to be honest) left-leaning magazine mapped their movements and it was noticed that while they claimed that they were on their way home when they were “attacked” the home in question was equidistant (8 km, or half a mile) to the place of the knifing. I’ll leave it up the observer to guess about the legal outcome.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
1 month ago

@Dalillama,

Yes. There are armed fascists roaming my city assaulting people like me.

Dalillama, I hope you are safe and well! It’s so important that anyone who is not currently being targeted directly must be aware of this, and protest this. Those who have the privilege of not actually at this moment being a target, need to speak out. It falls disproportionately on minorities of all kinds to raise awareness — it is so tiring to be both fighting the hate, while being targets of the hate.

I know this has been said a million times but it pains me when I hear “oh well, neither side is perfect” said by people who are not being targeted for their race/sexuality/gender/abilities/etc. The utter lack of empathy, thinly disguised as resonable moderation!

We’ve been down this road before.

Etymologist
Etymologist
1 month ago

It’s a very minor point rightly overshadowed by all the other vileness, but I couldn’t help but notice that when “LoveNotPorn” wrote,

Today I went to get some gas and when I went into the gas station a TIM was stood talking to the cashier,

they used the typically UK colloquial expression “[x] was stood”. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m unaware of any US dialect which favors this locution. An American English speaker would have said, “[x] was standing” or “[x] stood”. I suspect LoveNotPorn is either a recent immigrant to the US or a British TER(F) pretending to be a Mississippian.

Dalillama
1 month ago

@Bookworm
So far so good, but I never leave the house unarmed anymore.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
1 month ago

@Bookworm:

Those who have the privilege of not actually at this moment being a target, need to speak out.

This, of course, was the point of Niemoller’s poem.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

There’s a saying about this: if one Nazi is at a table and 10 other people are talking to him and listening, there are now 11 Nazis at that table. To work with fascists, to accept fascism as a valid ideology, is to be complicit, and so anyone who is adjacent to fascists is one, not adjacent. Fascism is an insidious ideology that creeps into discourse through people claiming to be neutral or centrist

I hadn’t heard of that saying, but for me, that line of thinking sets off alarm bells. I lurk in a lot of places, and I’ve seen that type of wording being used in conservative Christian groups against Muslims.

I’m not saying that Nazism is in any way a good ideology. I’m saying using that kind of logic to claim any ideology is bad might be dangerous.

Naglfar is not using the “there are 11 Nazis” logic to claim that fascism is bad. The premise assumes that fascism is bad; it does not argue that fascism is bad.

Fascism is self-evidently bad, but if you really for some reason need persuading on that point, it is bad because it poses a direct existential threat to marginalized communities. Fascism is an ideology based around the removal or extermination of the “undesirables” they have chosen to scapegoat for their problems. If you need to be explained why ethnic cleansing is objectively wrong, then I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe stop taking the philosophy of moral relativism so seriously? We cannot assume that fascism is something worthy of equal consideration to other ideological frameworks, the ones not based around extermination.

People who do not oppose fascist ideology when it rears its vile head are at best enablers of this violence, and to the people who are the targets and victims of the violence? The difference is academic.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

Sigh. I guess that this is an “Okay Boomer” situation where I’m the Boomer (metaphorically, as I’m at the older end of Gen-X) where we’re just talking past each other. Or possibly a Malcolm X telling MLK “fuck off, KKK Apologist” situation (again, metaphorically, he didn’t literally say anything like that as far as I know). By my count, from a US perspective, we’ve had 5 Black Rights movements (6 If you count the Reconstruction separate from the Civil War, but I wouldn’t), 4 Women’s rights movements, 4 LGBTQIA+ movements, and we’ve had to deal with Nazis three times and Rogue Pseudo-Feminists at least twice, and now we’ve got Incels… and on top of that, the ever-present threat of religious fundamentalists for over a century and Climate Change since the 1970s, neither of which has ever really been dealt with, and not from lack of trying. And where has that all lead to? Incrementialism, small improvemets with a constant cost of blood to keep them, and centuries further to truly reach the goals. You want to play that kind of game? Like the one where you can’t talk about the problem of gun violence until gun violence is solved, because it’s always too soon? Okay.

Conservatives: Let’s just forgive and forget.
Centrists: Fine with me! I’m back in my comfort zone.
Liberals: No, really, we need to talk about the future now.
Conservatives: Nope.
Centrists: Nope.
Moderate Liberals: Eh, maybe they have a point? Nazis aren’t really a threat any more.
Other Liberals: But…
Everyone else: 70-30. You’re outvoted. And we’re stopping you if you try to pull anything.
Conservatives: Hey, you know what we’d like to bring back? Stalinism. Except without the communism part. Stalin was awesome. (Or whatever, I don’t know what they’d go with next, but it almost certainly wouldn’t be Stalinism.)
Centrists: Meh, don’t get it all over my shoes.
Liberals: Crap, more fires to put out! Survival mode!

This is the world we live in. This is the world we have always lived in. This is the world we always will live in, or for several more generations at least, so long as people focus only on the present and believe that the rightness of their cause are enough to carry the day and stamp out evil forever, and that they won’t burn all the bridges needed to make the last few steps in the process, just like all the previous generations failed at. You don’t have the privilege to be MLK, or the diplomats who keep the centrists on board long enough to keep the Nazis from getting their fingers on too many of them? Then be the Black Panthers. A successful movement has to have all three. But don’t tell the others to step aside, because it’s only your destiny and only your right to determine the future because you were the most wronged, because if you succeed then I guarantee that the best case scenario is that there will be only minor improvements and we’ll be right back here in a generation, just like we’ve always done, and that’s just the best case.

I lived through a similar, but not identical, collective firestorm in the 1980s and some smaller ones in the 1990s and beyond. I made similar mistakes of thinking in my youth. But I’m not playing that stupid fucking game anymore if I can help it. It’s really hard to opt out when people who are in survival mode say “Nope! Play the game where we fight evil on its own terms where it can’t truly lose or step aside, evil-lover! All that matters is the now!” but I’m trying anyway.

I’ve heard variations of “if you don’t deal with the present, there is no future.” These usually come from people who are unknowingly or uncaringly sabotaging their own future, so they don’t have a future anyway without outside intervention. My position is the opposite: if you don’t tend to the future, whatever you do in the present doesn’t much matter. That attitude not only helped me out of a death spiral, by being dedicated to finding “third options” whenever possible, but also put me in a strong position to help out others who took the opposite attitude and failed. (When I tried to get my cousin to explain why she did things like that, she specifically said that her focus on the present was to endure in hopes that one day things would somehow work out in the end, and people like me eventually bailing her out counts as “working out in the end”. While some risk-taking is necessary, I personally find that risky in all the wrong ways. How would outside intervention even work on a broad social level? “Benevolent” colonialism? How would just waiting for anything else to happen work? Hoping Nazis all drop dead from slow attrition like a bunch of mindless zombies?)

I don’t believe in just enduring, even when I am enduring. That is putting off losing, not winning. You need to win sooner or later. If you can, win sooner. I also don’t believe in lesser evils. Occasionally, you have to give in because there’s no time to find a better way, but relying on lesser evils doesn’t stop the greater evil, only delays it and lets it grow stronger in the meantime. I mean, if you don’t mind the political tangent, Bill Clinton? Barack Obama? Joe Biden? Okay, Obama did a little in his last two years, but that was all undone. Those people are/were just delaying tactics, not the start of real solutions, just like everything else. I have little doubt that Biden will plant the seeds of someone worse than Trump taking over if we don’t find a way to whack him upside the head or do on his behalf all the necessary things he wouldn’t dare to do, despite his power and likely resistance. Enough already. Seriously.

Sometimes I forget that most of the people here see only their own bubbles and the bubbles of their enemies. That’s only a small part of the whole. You can’t write off the rest of it, you have to deal with everyone else too. Or somebody has to on your behalf, if you’re going entirely the Black Panthers route. I’d dig up MLK’s quote about moderates setting timetables for black rights, but most of the people here probably know the one. In the end, he was right, in the worst possible way. That needs to be fixed too, and you can’t do that by threatening them with violence. (Or maybe you can, no one’s tried on a large enough scale, but it would be an extremely difficult victory which requires thoroughly abandoning the moral high ground.)

If caring for both the present and the future instead of just the present, if caring about both the blood spilled now and the absolutely certain blood to be spilled in the future, if caring about distinctions which don’t matter to you but do matter to other people who are not like you, if trying to find/make some third option work to break out of the cycle while also staying out of your way, if all that makes me a revolting evil-lover, then so be it. Kill me. Kill all of the enemies of the Nazis, so your rage born of vengeance and righteousness can seek out it’s true target alone and with unmatched purity, as is your right and your right alone, and fuck everyone else who was also wronged. I’d hope you win. I’d also like to see the fallout from that, in a world were the Nazis are temporarily vanquished yet again but Antifa and BLM and similar groups are remembered as the villains of the story. No, wait, I wouldn’t like to see that, aside from as a morbid intellectual curiosity in a reality where there was no hope for anything better, but it wouldn’t matter to me because I would be dead at the hands of my presumed teammates and allies.

I want this to be the last generation which has to deal with most of this garbage. I have little hope of it, because these kinds of things have an inertia which are extremely hard to stop. Doesn’t matter, I’ll try anyway. But to even try, I do not have the luxury of considering only the present. Or for that matter, only the Nazis and the people fighting against them. And, as warped as it may sound, for those currently in the trenches, being able to only consider those things *is* a luxury – albeit one which they can’t (and shouldn’t) be grateful for.

So next time someone tells me to fuck off, Nazi apologist I’m going to respond with fuck off, Blood Knight. You can’t just fight Nazis just because they’re there, with no plan to keep them from coming back. That’s how you get more Nazis. That’s how you get eternal conflict with them. That is tantamount to being a blood knight, someone who keeps fighting and fighting and fighting because that’s all they can do, or sometimes, all they want to do. Yes, that’s a bad take. So is “Nazi apologist”.

Last edited 1 month ago by Snowberry
Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

@Snowberry

Okay, I’ve got absolutely no idea what point your long, rambling diatribe was intended to convey.

If I had to guess, it seems to be “if we can’t be civil to the people who are civil with fascists, then all the antifacists are going to do is murder a bunch of people and make antifacism look bad the next time fascism happens”? Or essentially the “but the optics!!!!” argument, stretched out over hundreds of words? Am I close to the mark?

I gotta say, I find it really weird to read a spiel that attempts to blend “incrementalism isn’t good enough and we need to ensure fascism will never rise again!!” and “we need to make sure we play nice with the Liberals/Centrists and not make enemies”. That seems like a bit of a contradiction. Do you believe that the Liberals and Centrists are poised to somehow end fascism forever but are being stymied by leftists and antifacists just being too violent and problematic?

Last edited 1 month ago by Catalpa
Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@Catalpa: Yes, and no. Optics alone does not work. Smashing Nazis alone does not work. We need both. And that’s just two thirds of it. The other third is having a plan to deal with the scattered and hidden Nazis in the aftermath, one which does not look like we are the new oppressors.

Also, I’m not sure if we mean the same thing by “optics”. You do need to smooth things out with the centrists so that they don’t snatch your long-term defeat from the jaws of your short-term victory, but at the same time, you need to put constant pressure on them with arguments which they can’t easily ignore or refute. That’s not quite playing nice. “But WWII !” is a really weak argument, for example. Yes, those people were clearly bad, but you have to refute the economic side of fascism too, and prove that nationalism always leads to bad stuff regardless of how reasonable it may sound on the surface. And you can’t use the wisdom of, say, Karl Marx to do so. They haven’t read him and will be as totally as lost as you were in my rant (if not more so) and won’t want to read him once they find out it’s, well, Marx. Repeat for a lot of other people. Yes, huge handicap there, but if you don’t acknowledge that handicap then you’ll just be speaking gibberish or making unwarranted assertions for all they can tell.

One cannot just say “Nazis are bad. This is obvious” because it is really not obvious to a lot of people. You can’t just dismiss all of them as idiots. You need to speak to the ones you can reasonably speak to on a level that they can understand. That is in addition to all the other stuff. This is a multi-spectrum problem which can’t be permanently solved with a single ray of attack, to use a tortured light metaphor.

Last edited 1 month ago by Snowberry
Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

It’s pretty true that there is a significant difference between the core fascists, who go in the street and use violence on whoever they want to martyrise, and the vast mass of fascism enabler, who just don’t care that people are being martyrised even when that could happen to them randomly.

I guess that snowberry both want the distinction to be made *and* want a special discourse for them. Whether it help to not brutally remind them of the horrors they enable is discutable, but possible. (I fully expect Dalillama to say “no”, and TBH that’s the case for at least a decent amount of them).

As for preventing future fuck up like that, I suspect it have much more to do with a better governement and in particular election. Alway remember two things :

  • things have changed meaningfully since the WW2. There’s progress, it’s just that nobody want the road to be finished for their grand-grand-grandsons.
  • fascists and their enablers basically never have a majority and alway game the electoral system. There’s a ton of work done on actually useable voting systems, and convincing people to use them will help.
Knitting Cat Lady
Knitting Cat Lady
1 month ago

So. I’m German.

@Snowberry: We have a word for people who weren’t actively pursuing Nazi goals, but not resisting them either. ‘Mitläufer’ vaguely translates to ‘run along siders’.

The thing about Mitläufer is that, while they don’t actually do anything ‘bad’, not doing anything to stop said ‘bad’ thing is functionally indistinguishable from actually approving and endorsing said ‘bad’ thing.

Said ‘bad’ thing being the killing of 6 million Jews, 6 million Sinti, Roma, disabled, LGBTQ+, political dissidents, and countless others in WW2. And don’t forget the slave work POWs and inmates of concentration camps were forced to do.

The analogy of 1 Nazi and 10 others? That’s one Nazi and 10 Mitläufer. And a Mitläufer is indistinguishable from a Nazi.

In the face of fascism, anything but vocal disagreement is endorsement.

And why do I care?

Because I had disabled relatives who were killed by the Nazis.

Because I am disabled. And my people are always the first to be exterminated. Because we are a nice test balloon, to see if people care. And they never do.

I am German. Everywhere I go I see little bronze plaques in front of buildings, with the names of the Jewish owners and inhabitants on them. With the date when they were forcibly removed. Which camp they were sent to. And the date they were murdered.

THIS is what we’re fighting against.

It is happening again. Right now! In ICE concentration camps!

It is happening here. Yes. Even in Germany. Even though we should know better.

But at least our government is doing something about it. Not terribly effective, but for every Nazi protester there are more counter protesters, at least.

And you, @snowberry, are a Mitläufer.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@knitting old lady : I applaude your stand on principle, but if someone convincingly showed me that calling thoses enablers something else than fascist and nazis would help get their supports, I would do it in an heartbeat.

In the XIXth England, they tried to push an oversized sentence on pickpocketing, namely death penalty. It didn’t helped one inch and actually there were more pickpocketers after, because humans actually stop caring about a sentence if it feel absurdly unjust. That’s one of the reason for which the war on drug cannot possibly work and why the all repressive society some people sell won’t work.

The questions, and I am not sure of the answer, is whether treatings enablers and core fascists in the same way won’t have the same effect of making the enabler not care. Whether they morally are vile or not isn’t terribly important to me compared to efficiently finding a way to shift their supports, since they are still very much the weak point of fascists.

Also, my experience is that convincing a core fascist to turn around is vastly different from passive enablers. Nazis can have change of hearts, and AFAIK it’s more common for actual thugs to have a crisis of conscience than for passive enablers.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@Knitting Cat Lady & maybe a few others:

Yeah, no. I promised I would say it, so I will: Fuck off, blood knight.

I know what people like you want. You want the Mitläufers to escape so they can create the next generation of Nazis. You want to stoke the fires of your hate and righteous fury so you can kill them, again and again. They are bad people, and bad people must die, and you must kill. Killing must be justified, get the bad people. You don’t want to let anyone disable the Mitläufers, because no more Nazis to kill. So you accuse anyone who tries to do so of being one of them, in hopes that they will eventually break down and say, “I was wrong and you were right. Blood for the blood god! Skulls for the skull throne!”

Breaking Nazi ideology is not and never was your goal. Breaking Nazis is your goal. When you have learned the difference between self-defense and vengeance, then maybe we can talk about ending Nazis. But until then, fuck off, blood knight. Go back in the trenches and focus on the enemy and no one else so that the people who want to win, by using diplomacy and optics in addition to violence, can try to find a way to break out of the ongoing cycle in spite of you. Don’t kill the other people in the trenches who have not yet learned to hate like you, or have learned to let it go. That would make things a lot harder. Of course, you might actually want that.

Don’t like that take? Then stop acting like violence is the solution to everything. Violence is an unfortunate necessity in this case. Violence is what protects in the short term and buys the time to enact solutions AND IT IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN A SOLUTION TO SOCIAL ISSUES unless you want to go full genocide, in which case, you’d damn well better succeed… and who are the Nazis now? If you go that route, please kill yourself in penance afterward so I and the other non-blood-knight warriors in this cause don’t have to, regardless of whether you succeed.

Fuck it, Ethiopia is on the verge of experiencing a large-scale genocide in part because of fucking optics because some of the major social media outlets are passively complicit. You want Mitläufers, there’s some of them right there. But sure, target the people who are taking the task to them (“them” being the social media outlets) both there and for the fight at home, along with all the other people who are taking the other prongs in this multipronged fight. Any way to ensure there will always be more Nazis. No, of course you don’t want that. Or so you claim. But in my eyes, you’re just as indistinguishable from a blood knight as you apparently believe that I am indistinguishable from a Nazi enabler, assuming you are not lying in the hopes of browbeating me into compliance, blood knight.

Sigh. Humans some days.

Last edited 1 month ago by Snowberry
Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

…I just had a better idea. Don’t talk to me like I am a human with different perspectives, but as a robot who does not have the perspective to comprehend humans well enough to understand why converting some of the Nazi enablers away from Nazi enabling and dismepowering the rest makes Nazis stronger and other people’s more direct fights against the Nazis harder, beep boop. 🤖 Because that is the argument I am hearing, and I would sure like a logical, comprehensible explanation.

Last edited 1 month ago by Snowberry
Knitting Cat Lady
Knitting Cat Lady
1 month ago

So, @snowberry, your solution is appeasement. Got it. Because that worked so fine last time around.

I don’t want to kill all the Nazis. But I will do my damnedest to take the ones coming to kill me with me.

What I want is for everyone to work together to stop the fucking Nazis. To make it so their policies can’t take hold again.

And fucking Mitläufer like you just don’t fucking care to lift a finger to do the simplest things like, ya know, go out and fucking vote.

I will do everything I can, which isn’t much beyond donating money to specific causes due to being fucking disabled, to stop the fucking Nazis getting enough power to actively start killing me and people like me.

And people like YOU, @snowberry, quibble about whether it’s ‘fair’ to call Mitläufer Nazis.

Enablers are functionally indistinguishable Nazis.

And if you don’t show me and other Nazi targets that you are actively, vocally, against Nazis? I will treat you like a Nazi. Self preservation demands it.

In the fight against fascism, if you’re not with us, you’re against us.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

I am not sure how to respond at this point, so I’ll just say that I really did not intend for this to happen. I truly didn’t expect that my statement about the evils of fascism would be that controversial.

Oh, and forgive me for being a bit angry at an ideology that wants me dead. If that makes me a blood knight, so be it.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@Knitting Cat Lady: Awesome! Now we’re getting somewhere. You’re not a blood knight after all. You’re a conservative! Or at least think like one.

So much black and white thinking. You’re with us or you’re with the Nazis. You must let the cycle of generational violence continue or you’re appeasing them. You’re putting everything that I say in one of two boxes when the entire point of what I’ve been saying in all of these rants is that both of those two boxes are a centuries-long proven losing strategy, not just on Nazis but other social issues – or at least one of them is on its own, so it’s long past time to find more boxes. And use all of them. Yes, I get some people aren’t in the position to find new boxes, and some of those might be offended by other people trying to find new boxes because they’re the ones hurting most so they should have all the say in things, but it has to be done unless living with a constant blood price for incrementalism is really the world you want.

So if I stole a pair of a Nazi’s pants 👖, that’s appeasing them, because it doesn’t fit the box of smashing them directly and no other boxes are allowed as far as interaction with them is concerned, to use a silly example. Okay. Hey, let’s appease Richard Spencer by deplatforming him and stealing all his money! 🤪 So much to unpack now, but I’m going to bed.

(Oh, and in case someone says why I didn’t address the “quibbling over whether it’s fair to call the Nazi-adjacent ‘Nazis'”, I personally don’t care whether or not it’s fair, only whether it is counterproductive certain cases, and anyway that’s only vaguely adjacent to anything I was trying to say. Anyone who wants to prevent me from making the Nazi-adjacent no longer Nazi-adjacent because it is somehow “appeasing” the Nazis and not helping to destroy as many possible footholds for their ideology to take root again is blood-knight-adjacent and will be treated accordingly. Anyone who tries to stop me from my part in forcing various social media to be socially responsible and not accomplices to the worst of humanity will also be treated accordingly. Anyone who tries to stop someone else who is using other methods… you get the picture.)

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

@Snowberry

Please just stop. Seriously. This shit is exhausting.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Snowberry

So if I stole a pair of a Nazi’s pants 👖, that’s appeasing them, because it doesn’t fit the box of smashing them directly and no other boxes are allowed as far as interaction with them is concerned, to use a silly example. Okay. Hey, let’s appease Richard Spencer by deplatforming him and stealing all his money! 🤪 So much to unpack now, but I’m going to bed.

I don’t understand what you mean by this. We should do whatever we can to stop Nazis, and if that means stealing pants, then that means stealing pants. You seem to be the one thinking in black and white here.

Knitting Cat Lady
Knitting Cat Lady
1 month ago

@snowberry:

I’m anarcho-communist, for what it’s worth.

As for black and white thinking?

Forgive me the principle of Schrödinger’s Rapist applies to Nazis.

Because the Nazis want to FUCKING KILL ME, FFS!

How to fight Nazis:

-Defunding
-Deplatforming
-Educating people so they don’t become Nazis in the first place
-Never letting anything they say stay unopposed
-When they march, organise a bigger march
-When they smash, smash back harder
-Argue with relatives who sympathise with Nazis

It’s not fucking rocket science!

Nazis are bad. People who don’t care that Nazis are bad? Are also bad, because they can’t be bothered to do anything about them.

I don’t care whether they believe Nazi ideology or not! It doesn’t matter if they pull the trigger themselves or just don’t bother to stop someone else from pulling the trigger. I’m dead either way.

So, kindly fuck off with your Nazi apologetics.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

@Snowberry

First off, Jesus fuck, the next time you tell the rest of the commentariat to kill themselves, I’m going to ask David to ban you.

Second, you seem to assume that the goal of antifacists is entirely to just murder all fascists. This is not the case. Antifacists want to stop fascists. That can include killing them, certainly, but it’s an enormous leap of logic to go from someone saying “there’s 11 Nazis” and tack on “and all those Nazis should immediately be murdered, there is no other solution”.

Also, fascism doesn’t arise because individual fascists escape and spread to the next generation. Fascism is an ideology, not a genetic trait. If we somehow magically got a button that made all the fascists in the world disappear, that would not prevent fascism from arising in the future. Showing the world how awful fascism is won’t stop fascism from arising in the future. The Nazis proved that rather handily. Fascism is intrinsically linked to capitalism and as long as the capitalist system is in power, fascism will sooner or later arise. (Kay and Skittles explains this concept very concisely: https://youtu.be/darxphvk058)

There is no “correct” course of action that antifacists can take to remove fascism without dealing with the underlying systems that give rise to it. Antifacists can get literally everyone else to turn against the fascists today and fascism will still crop up in the future if the material conditions that give rise to it are not addressed.

And it is incredibly reductive to assume that antifacists do not realize this and that we are somehow only interested in murdering everyone we label a Nazi.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Catalpa

And it is incredibly reductive to assume that antifacists do not realize this and that we are somehow only interested in murdering everyone we label a Nazi.

This is something the right wing fails to understand. Because they think in black and white absolutes, they assume that someone either loves something or hates it and wants it supporters to all die (which is of course a projection of their own thoughts). This is part of the outrage that they have over cancel culture: they have projected onto the left that the point of boycotting something or someone is because they hate them and want all their fans and supporters to die. In reality, most of us don’t want to kill people, we want people to stop being fascists.

Viscaria
Viscaria
1 month ago

Just want to say that I agree with the idea that people who listen to Nazi shit who are like “This sounds good. I have no problem with this” cannot be distinguished from the “real” Nazis, and I don’t believe this makes me an incrementalist (???), a blood knight, or a conservative.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

There is no “correct” course of action that antifacists can take to remove fascism without dealing with the underlying systems that give rise to it. Antifacists can get literally everyone else to turn against the fascists today and fascism will still crop up in the future if the material conditions that give rise to it are not addressed.

Thank you!

It’s not a one and done problem. It’s something that’ll crop up again and again and again down the years.

People LIKE othering folks in response to their own problems and beliefs, it’s pretty much a default action for most, and from “other” to “subhuman” is a fucking short and very slippery step. See pretty much every single group David reports on for evidence.

numerobis
numerobis
1 month ago

We’re going to solve fascism the same way we solve the dishes: by doing the work over and over for eternity.

And refusing to let them get the upper hand ever, because that way lies a messy, bug-infested kitchen.

Hambeast
Hambeast
1 month ago

I just want to Quote For Truth what Catalpa said:  

If we somehow magically got a button that made all the fascists in the world disappear, that would not prevent fascism from arising in the future. Showing the world how awful fascism is won’t stop fascism from arising in the future. The Nazis proved that rather handily. Fascism is intrinsically linked to capitalism and as long as the capitalist system is in power, fascism will sooner or later arise.

And also what numerobis said:

We’re going to solve fascism the same way we solve the dishes: by doing the work over and over for eternity.

And refusing to let them get the upper hand ever, because that way lies a messy, bug-infested kitchen.

Unfortunately, the world has been neglecting the dishes for far too long and the smell and mess are now impossible to ignore.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 month ago

Okay, to bring it all back to ‘one nazi sitting at a table of 10 other people = 11 nazis’, i’d like to dig in to this a little bit.

First off, the one person who is identified in the sentence as a nazi. How do we know they are a nazi?

In this little story, i think this is the most important point. How do we KNOW this person is a nazi?

What are they saying? Are they using dog whistles? Are they just outright talking about how hitler wasn’t that bad, actually?

What have they said, in the past? Are they known for their dog whistles, their fascist rhetoric?

How are they dressed?

What have they done?

HOW COME THEY ARE KNOWN AS A NAZI???

In short: the sentence presumes that the 10 people at the table are choosing to sit with *someone they know is a nazi*.

A nazi isn’t going and sitting at tables in a cafeteria, eating something quietly, then standing up and crowing “you ate with me, a nazi! Now you are all nazis! Muahahahahaha!!!”

This grouping is 10 people who are say: “oh, them? Yeah, i know they are a literal nazi, but i don’t care to violate the social rules to do anything about it. They aren’t bothering me.”

That’s how they become effectively nazis. They might not support the ideology directly, but they sure as shit aren’t ostracising someone who does! They become cover.

“Oh, joe? Yeah, i heard he’s a nazi, but he’s a nice guy who walks his elderly neighbour’s dog, and has lots of friends. He’s probably not a NAZI nazi, maybe just someone who thinks that the transes are transing our kids.”

Also, if stealing nazi pants was a thing we could do, it would be good. Think of the money they’d have to spend on pants! Think of how often they couldn’t appear in public, because their pants were just gone!

“Right, i’m dapper nazi richard spencer, and i am ready to get dressed to do whatever richard spencer is doing right now. OH NO MY PANTS ARE GONE!!”

And then i dream he’d howl: “how does this keep HAPPENING!!! DAMN YOU, PANTS THIEVING ANTIFA!!!!!”

I also agree that we need to look at the systems we have in place, and determine why fascism just keeps cropping up, and change that. But doing that work doesn’t mean you let nazis just… nazi along, like there’s nothing wrong with the present nazis nazi-ing. We need to both solve the actual problem, and the symptoms.

Last edited 1 month ago by Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Rhuu

Think of how often they couldn’t appear in public, because their pants were just gone!

Maybe, but I feel like they’d probably show up without pants “to own the libs” and somehow it would become a symbol of the alt right to not wear pants. Sort of like how they refuse to wear masks.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

O/T but relevant: Apparently this is happening next month. Their choice of graphic is unusual, I thought they said the rainbow was oppressing them.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Lucy Montrose
Lucy Montrose
1 month ago

OK… I’ll wade in for a bit.

@Snowberry, it’s always a shame when someone partially gets it or almost gets it, but fails in the end.
That’s what most angers me about the QAnon nuts and Trumpsters: they recognize enough that corporate power is a threat to our freedom… and then they embrace the very politicians who would deliver us into privatized Tartarus. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, indeed… emphasis on “little”. Barely enough to mouth some of the right words. Meanwhile, their actions are pure fascist.

I thought what you said about living for the present vs. living for the future was great, FWIW:

I’ve heard variations of “if you don’t deal with the present, there is no future.” These usually come from people who are unknowingly or uncaringly sabotaging their own future, so they don’t have a future anyway without outside intervention

.

A lot of these happily deluded righties care only about an ineffable now. And their actions put us all in survival mode… too stressed and too busy just trying to survive to get politically involved, enjoy our lives, or do more than the bare minimum for our loved ones.  Also, constant stress and survival make us all more likely to take mental shortcuts and operate solely on gut instinct. Embracing stereotypes, etc. is something our guts adore.
This is deliberate: to keep us chasing our tails, so the fascists alone can shape our societies.

My position is the opposite: if you don’t tend to the future, whatever you do in the present doesn’t much matter. That attitude not only helped me out of a death spiral, by being dedicated to finding “third options” whenever possible, but also put me in a strong position to help out others who took the opposite attitude and failed.

I had an effton of people telling me to take one day at a time and to live in the here and now when I was going through a rough patch in college. They doubtless thought they were comforting me and providing me a road map to happiness.
All that did was make me suspicious of happiness, wondering if it required engaging the off switches on my brain and my empathy for others. Conservatives are happier than liberals because of their particular happiness-boosting mechanism: they simply choose not to care about others’ plight. Embracing the just world fallacy helps them gain an internal locus of control. Damn the unintended consequences in both cases.

Have you ever noticed that it’s mainly people who are going through rough times in their life (or visiting a yogi) who are sold on the importance of living in the present? Not to mention an outsize faith in baby steps, and the blithe disregard of the importance of them going somewhere.
Keep us chasing our tails and working on ourselves, and taken out of the fight for a better world.

I feel like these happiness bromides like “take one day at a time” were dropped on me as a substitute for actually being my friend. A cheap bone thrown at me, to get me momentarily distracted and “boosted” so that I’ll go away. Because presumably I’ll cease talking to them if I’m happy enough or “present-centered” enough.

TL;DR:  certain comforting messages are a trap. They induce you into not working for the future, or trick you into waiting your life away to become “centered” or “emotionally regulated” enough to join the fight for justice. “You’re overthinking” is what I consider a gateway drug to disdaining reason and thought. It’s despicable to imply that we must sacrifice our brains, or our future-thinking, in order to be happy or balanced; and yet we do that every day in the name of boosting our friends’ spirits.

Also TL;DR: there may be attempting to understand where fascists are coming from (so as to prevent their ideas from taking hold in others), but there is no sparing their feelings or saving a seat for them at the table. Fascists want power at our expense, period.

Last edited 1 month ago by Lucy Montrose
Dalillama
1 month ago

@Knitting Cat Lady
I believe that the best English rendition of Mitläufer would be ‘fellow-traveler’, although it refers to ancillary supporters of any ideology, and in English usually refers to pinkos.

@Ohlmann

Whether it help to not brutally remind them of the horrors they enable is discutable, but possible. (I fully expect Dalillama to say “no”, and TBH that’s the case for at least a decent amount of them).

For all of me I’d as soon see the lot of them face a tribunal at Den Hague or such other place as may be determined, followed by the same trip their bosses got the last time around. Logistically this is probably not feasible, but that’s honestly my only objection.

@Quisling dogshit
Thanks for completely ignoring the part where fascists are trying to kill us right the fuck now. Thinking of the future is a luxury reserved for people who have a future. I don’t have that luxury, because I’ve already outlived about half my contemporaries in my demographic and I have no way of knowing when my ticket is going to be punched. So, in short, fuck you and the nazi you rode in on. The world will be a better place when you die, and I dearly hope that’s soon.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

@Dalilama
Wishing death on someone is against the comments policy, please don’t do that.

Lucy Montrose
Lucy Montrose
1 month ago

Is Snowberry the quisling dogshit, or is it me?

I am sorry I hurt you, Daliilama, and for apparently picking the wrong time and place to say what I did

To everyone else: am I still welcome here in the future?

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

@Lucy

I’m 99% sure that Dalilama is referring to Snowberry, not you. You’re fine.

Dalillama
1 month ago

@Lucy
I meant Snowberry, indeed.

@Catalpa
Golden rule style of thing. People who don’t want to be wished death ought not to impugn my right to live.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

@Dalillama
Whether or not it’s justified, it’s still against the comments policy to say that kind of thing here.

North Sea Sparkly Dragon
North Sea Sparkly Dragon
1 month ago

I read the arguments yesterday, and this morning I’ve caught up with the discussion. Seeing people at each other’s throats was very disturbing, but I have been thinking. Fighting fascism is like draining a massive pus filled wound. In the 1940s they drained the original wound but didn’t clean it properly, leaving behind infectious material and the root cause of the infection. Infections from bits of the pus getting in other cuts have caused outbreaks and the original wound has refilled.
Now our job is to clean the wound, get a curette in there to scrape out every last bit, remove any sack to prevent it coming back and then pack the wound with iodine tape to help it heal from the inside. It’ll need antibiotics and several revisits to prevent a reinfection.
In other words, we need to actively be antifascist, dealing with fascists in the street, countering arguments that might rope in those who aren’t actively fascist but don’t object either, and also find out why fascism as an ideology appeals to people when we can show that it is objectively bad and leads to evil things happening. What is it that leads to people who might otherwise be very pleasent becoming fascists? What social conditions are the breeding grounds for fascism? We can only end fascism by getting at the underlying causes, which takes work, every day, and the systemic change that needs to happen actually happens. We need to know what changes to make first, the best way to clean the wound and heal it. Until then, we’re going to be fighting reinfection, draining the pus but not clearing the infection from the body.

I hope that makes sense, and that we, humanity in general, can clean the wound and find the correct route to healing so it doesn’t come back, soon.

P. S. I am also in multiple categories of people fascists want to kill, and since my government (UK) is fascist-lite at the moment I feel an existential fear that should I get Covid I’ll be allowed to die. Logically, I know the area I live in has very low infection and death rates so I’ll get treatment but I’m disabled and the government has made it clear we are not a priority.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

@North Sea Sparkly Dragon and any other UK Mammotheers:

I’ve been using this site to keep an eye on rates in my borough You can just plug in the area you’re interested in and get a pretty graph of historic and current cases. There’s a day or so’s delay, obviously, as testing’s not instant, but we’re still using it to decide if we’re going out and about or not.

Bout the first time I’ve found something RL useful from Reddit! 🙂

Beyond Ocean
Beyond Ocean
1 month ago

@Naglfar

Maybe, but I feel like they’d probably show up without pants “to own the libs” and somehow it would become a symbol of the alt right to not wear pants. Sort of like how they refuse to wear masks.

I’ve already seen a fash party member go to a protest without pants to own the libs. I wish I could say it was because some intrepid antifascist stole them.

@Snowberry

Anyone who wants to prevent me from making the Nazi-adjacent no longer Nazi-adjacent because it is somehow “appeasing” the Nazis and not helping to destroy as many possible footholds for their ideology to take root again is blood-knight-adjacent and will be treated accordingly.

You know, for all this fantasizing how we’re all blood-starved killers trying to tear your precious Mitläufer babies from you (using terminology from TV Tropes for some reason), what do you have to show for making them “no longer Nazi-adjacent”?

You whinge about how much smarter you are than everyone who doesn’t have the big brain to think about THE FUTURE, but all you seem to have to offer is inscrutable, sanctimonious rage and a 4D chess master strategy that if only we could go to the nazis and convince them that being tolerant is actually the good thing using FACTS & LOGIC, because no one before you was future-focused enough to try that apparently.

Brenda
Brenda
1 month ago

I’m disabled and in other categories that are targeted or at risk of becoming so.

It’s painful to admit so many Americans are either fascist or duped by media that promotes fascist ideas, but it’s true and it’s been normalized for a long, long time.

Colonialism = capitalism = fascism

Telling people who are getting killed that they need to just calm down or they will make things worse, is neither being an ally nor thinking of the future.

It’s usually an attempt to preserve American normal. But the old American normal is colonialist.

There’s no way to avoid offending people who have grown up in colonialist fundamentalism. Some of them are educable, but we can’t ask people who are getting killed to stop doing what they have to do to fight back to survive.

This isn’t the cause of the constantly repeating colonialism, which was not caused by its victims.

Younger generations appear more aware of this whole dynamic than we Boomers are. We should let them have at it.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

Wow, talk about black-and-white thinking. Apparently if you’re anti-fascist, that means you literally want to murder fascists and will not be satisfied until their skulls are stacked into a throne. This is news to me, that you can’t oppose fascism without being a murderer, or at least a murderer-wannabe. I guess that’s the dichotomy: Nazi and murderer. You have to choose!

How many Nazis have been murdered by antifa lately? I’ll wait while someone goes and counts them.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@PoM

How many Nazis have been murdered by antifa lately?

I have the perfect infographic:

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

@Naglfar

Clearly antifa are the true blood knights, always thirsting for ever-more blood and never quite satiated.