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anti-Semitism TERFs transmisogyny transphobia

TERFs and guns: two terrible tastes that taste worse together

Saidit is a “free speech” Reddit clone that’s teeming with the sort of people who tend to get banned from Reddit. That is, the worst. As I noted in a previous post, some of the former denizens of Reddit’s banned Incels subreddit have taken up home there, as have several thousand TERFs, who are trying to recreate the peculiar, er, magic of the recently shut down GenderCritical subreddit.

While most of the r/GenderCritical refugees have ended up in Saidit’s own GenderCritical forum, a few dozen of the more extreme TERFs have founded an even more reactionary Saidit forum called 5thWaveFeminism.

The forum wears its backwards politics on its sleeve, declaring its opposition to

men posing as women, pornsites running trafficking operations and the liberal left kicking out women in favor for these subhumans. We are fed up, hence why we decided to create a whole new wave rejecting left wing/liberal feminism and their hatred of women. This community is proudly anti-antifa and anti-BLM.

We will ban TIM’s, Rapestars and other degenerates. 

TIM, by the way, stands for “Trans-IdentJewsified Male” — TERFspeak for trans women; “Rapestars” is the subreddit’s favorred terminology for “porn stars,” because in their view all porn is rape. Oh, and “degenerate?” That’s just a Nazi dogwhistle. It’s as if TERFs and 4chan had a baby.

So what to these self-declared 5th Wave Feminists like to talk about? The evils of drag and BDSM, and the alleged role of Jews in promoting “parasitic” trans ideology to teens.

And guns. They really like to talk about guns.

One commenter called LoveNotPorn really seems to be looking for an excuse to shoot a trans woman in “self defense.” In a post titled “Encountered a TIM in the wild,” she writes:

Today I went to get some gas and when I went into the gas station a TIM was stood talking to the cashier. They had long blond hair, pink leggings and some kind of vest on, I could tell they were a TIM despite them wearing a mask. I waited until they left and went up to pay for the gas.

Fortunately my state (Mississippi) allows open carry and I was carrying at the time so if he did try to rape or abuse me, I could have defend myself easily and be defended in law.

Yes, I’m sure the random (possibly) trans women you spotted at the gas station was planning to “rape or abuse” you.

The same commenter put up a photo of her and her husband’s guns in another post, so I don’t doubt she really was carrying at the time.

In another post, a commenter called StingingDove fantasizes about performing citizens arrests on people involved in the porn industry.

Does anyone know citizens arrest laws in LA or California AND/OR Canada? Given how pornhub is trafficking CHILDREN and no one is doing anything, i feel the need to perform a citizens arrest on the people behind this brainwashing and the damage to our children.

I do not want my teenage son to ruin his body by becoming transgender from watching porn, i do not want my daughter to become a lesbian and be brainwashed into becoming a pornstar.

Wat.

PORNHUB is trafficking children into their disgusting industry, they have a section that has MEN PRETENDING TO BE WOMEN RAPING TRAFFICKED WOMEN. They have women performing sex acts on other women on the site, which should be illegal, they promote and encourage women to promote their own rape and self rape.

Self rape?

We need to arrest not only the people behind this disgusting site, but also those women who are willing to act and promote these acts.

I will be travelling once the fires have stopped, a friend from WoLF has given me a list of addresses and names of people involved in these crimes. I have been planning how to arrest these people. Does anyone know if i will be put in jail if i carry a gun and handcuffs into california?

I hope this elaborate fantasy remains a fantasy. This is close to QAnon-level derangement.

H/T — Regular commenter Naglfar. Thanks!

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Leah
Leah
1 month ago

Ummm…”anti-antifascist”? Why not just say “fascist”?

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

These people sound like a weird hybrid of Andrew Anglin and Valerie Solanas.
I would have expected TERFs to be happier now, their favorite author just released a really transphobic book. Though I guess bigots will never be happy as long as the object of their hate remains breathing.

Trans-IdentJewsified Male

And when I thought they couldn’t get much worse…

The evils of drag

So much for claiming to support GNC people.

They had long blond hair, pink leggings and some kind of vest on, I could tell they were a TIM despite them wearing a mask.

Because no cis woman has ever had long blonde hair, pink leggings, or a vest. /s
At least 90% of times when TERFs claim to have clocked a trans person, they have just found a cis person who didn’t look exactly like their stereotype of what a man or woman should look like.

Given how pornhub is trafficking CHILDREN and no one is doing anything, i feel the need to perform a citizens arrest on the people behind this brainwashing and the damage to our children.

The issue of Pornhub is sticky (no pun intended). It definitely has many issues and is rife with problematic content and doesn’t pay well to sex workers, so I don’t like that site at all. However, SWERF/TERF campaigns against it seem to be ineffective and don’t actually try to help sex workers. They also appear to think that all porn = Pornhub.
Do they know that the performers aren’t the ones who run Pornhub?

Also, I’ll bet 10 to 1 the OP is a QAnoner.

i do not want my daughter to become a lesbian and be brainwashed into becoming a pornstar.

So much for TERFs defending lesbians.

Self rape?

The last time I heard this term was when the troll SRLO used it to refer to masturbation. Is this what they think solo scenes are?

I have been planning how to arrest these people. Does anyone know if i will be put in jail if i carry a gun and handcuffs into california?

I don’t know the citizen’s arrest laws in California, but I do know that if this commenter is serious, they will probably show up at a random house, which may or may not be the home of a porn star, and shout something incoherent then open fire. I sincerely hope they don’t actually try this.

Thanks!

You’re welcome! 🙂

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Sillabub
Sillabub
1 month ago

I suspect “self rape” means masturbation, probably with some kind of dildo or other toy intended for penetration. Which is eerily close to those anti-masturbation Christians.

On another note, and not to be That Person, but I’m going to assume “Trans-IdentJewsified Male” is a typo, in which case it’d probably be worthwhile correcting it…!

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Sillabub

On another note, and not to be That Person, but I’m going to assume “Trans-IdentJewsified Male” is a typo, in which case it’d probably be worthwhile correcting it…!

It could be, since the acronym usually is from “trans-identified male,” but given that these TERFs are more mask-off antisemitic than most, I am not so sure it is a typo.

Which is eerily close to those anti-masturbation Christians.

It’s not the only thing that sounds similar to Christian fundamentalists. WoLF (which they claim is a source of addresses) is a sockpuppet group funded by the Religious Right.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

I think the citizens arrest idiot is going to get crunched rather badly, either by whoever she tries this crap on, or (hopefully) by the cops. Which I’d be fine with, except she’ll be blaming her attempted victims and becoming a million times worse.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
1 month ago

I do not want my teenage son to ruin his body by becoming transgender from watching porn, i do not want my daughter to become a lesbian and be brainwashed into becoming a pornstar.

There’s so much wrong in this one sentence, I don’t even know how it’s possible.

And self rape? Are TERFs starting to meld with the no-fappers now?

Crip Dyke
1 month ago

How can you be a TERF if you’re not feminist, much less radical feminist?

They say this term is an insult, but I say it’s a compliment that they don’t deserve.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Crip Dyke
I’ve started seeing people on Twitter call them TERs, which seems to serve a dual purpose of not being flagged by Twitter as a slur and also removing anything that would suggest that they are feminists.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

Sigh. They’re all just joining together in to one amorphous, unstable blob of evil, aren’t they? Absorbing many of the ideas of all the adjacent groups in the mess, meanwhile hating most of the non-adjacent groups just as much as they hate everyone outside of the blob. The one thing they all have in common is that they’ve all but lost the culture wars and refuse to surrender. This is going to be a mess. Let’s just hope it that they inflict most of the damage on each other…

In regards to this one in particular: Watching a variety of porn can expand your sexual interests, and admittedly, give you some messed-up ideas if industrial-style porn is your only source of knowledge about sexuality, but it can’t fundamentally change who you are. Watching and liking girl-on-girl, for example, doesn’t turn straight cis men into lesbian transwomen (let alone ones who specifically target and rape random women who are clearly hostile and packing guns – that’s not even how rapists work), but it might make him at least moderately interested in MFF threesomes. Or it might not. Porn can be good or bad, but it’s just not that powerful.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

Thoses peoples are vile. Also, very stupid.

I personally believe it’s a rather big self own to loudly say that one’s childrens are so influencable and weak that they need to be protected from everything.

ED James
ED James
1 month ago

Wat.

Could not have said it better myself.
Also, what in the name of Jonny Sins c*ck is WoLF suppose to be?

Knitting Cat Lady
Knitting Cat Lady
1 month ago

proudly anti antifa = proudly fascist

I prefer FART (Feminism Appropriating Radical Transphobe) over TERF

And now there is an ammosexual wing of FARTs. Yay.

The neolithic revolution was the biggest mistake humanity ever made.

Kereea
Kereea
1 month ago

Like, Pornhub has legitimate issues that need addressing, but arresting the ACTORS is not gonna do jack shit. Mainly because the issues stem from the business side of the site, which IS A BUSINESS and therefore has owners who are profiting off of the entire thing, even without fixing the many issues with the site and wider business. But the idea of it as a business instead of just some, idk, collection of degeneracy seems beyond these folks.

On the other hand, freaking out that a random person you think may be trans at a gas station was SO TOTALLY going to rape you is more of an indicator that you may need therapy or anxiety meds to deal with your issues. That is QUITE a jump.

Kereea
Kereea
1 month ago

@Naglfar

So much for TERFs defending lesbians.

Interestingly, a gay guy I follow on tumblr has been getting a TON of shit from both TERFs and gay transphobes recently, due to a post where he asked transphobic gay men what they felt they gained by allying with TERFS, who tend to be of the “all men are evil” variety on that site. Multiple people have insisted he must not really be gay since he doesn’t care if trans people are on grindr, or if grindr has become more of a general LGBT dating app than just gay men. It’s been quite the shitshow.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Kereea

Interestingly, a gay guy I follow on tumblr has been getting a TON of shit from both TERFs and gay transphobes recently

The same happens to trans inclusive lesbians. TERFs claim to support various minorities, but what they mean is that they will support members of those minorities who lick their boots. Most transphobes are homophobes too, including those who are gay themselves. There’s even a Twitter account that tracks examples of TERFs being homophobic.

nobody
nobody
1 month ago

On the other hand, freaking out that a random person you think may be trans at a gas station was SO TOTALLY going to rape you is more of an indicator that you may need therapy or anxiety meds to deal with your issues. That is QUITE a jump

It’s dangerous incitement, that threatens the safety of trans people AND women who are not gender normative.

Wanna talk about bathrooms? I don’t know how many times during the military I’d go to use the head and some service man’s wife would act all shocked and ask if I was a man. You’d think being married to a grunt would have exposed her to fit women, without makeup….

It’s happened in the civilian world too, a female security guard who confronted me outside the restroom in a store. She insisted I was a man….which was a bit embarrassing when her male supervisor was called. I was all for just calling the real cops….which she lost enthusiasm for soon after. I was informed by a real cop trainee later, that unless a crime was being committed, there is no legal right to badger people about how they use the restroom.

My point is, these people overly concerned about what people’s sex or gender are not only a menace but could get themselves or their employer into serious legal hot water when they inevitably guess wrong.

It’s not just transphobic… it’s reckless

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@nobody

It’s dangerous incitement, that threatens the safety of trans people AND women who are not gender normative.

Indeed, since there are far more GNC cis women (or even cis women who present gender conforming but happen to look a little bit masculine) than there are trans women, it’s far more likely that some TERF who is out to shoot trans women will end up shooting a cis woman.

For instance, my mother is a cis woman with elevated testosterone levels (possibly due to some form of PCOS, she’s not sure) and although she presents as feminine, people have asked her on at least a few occasions if she is a trans woman because she has a more masculine face and is muscular. Thankfully she has never been assaulted on that basis, but I do worry about her with all the TERFs around who declare that any insufficiently feminine-looking woman is a “TIM” and a threat.

moregeekthan
moregeekthan
1 month ago

It just seems so many folks on the right are:

1) I am very unhappy about something.
(We’re probably unhappy about different things, but I get the sentiment.)

2) I need to find out the person responsible and shoot them.
(Just no. This is fractally wrong. There is no one person. You couldn’t find them if there were. You couldn’t shoot them if you could find them. Even if you somehow did, it wouldn’t help, and you’d be a murderer.)

Some Chick
Some Chick
1 month ago

This is no way these are actually a)feminists of any kind and b)real people. This sounds like bad fanfic written by a conservative teenagers LARPing as a TERF. Not that TERFs aren’t terrible in their own right. But this is just unbelievable even by their low standards.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Some Chick
Unfortunately, having seen TERFs online amongst each other, this isn’t beyond the pale for them. They openly ruminate at their events about wanting trans people to die. These ones might be a bit more mask off, but the rhetoric they’re using isn’t too different from mainstream TERFs.

Knitting Cat Lady
Knitting Cat Lady
1 month ago

proudly anti antifa = proudly fascist

I prefer FART (Feminism Appropriating Radical Transphobe) to TERF

nobody
nobody
1 month ago

@Naglfar, Some Chick

Here’s the thing…real or not, they’re hosting this on their own website now? They may be in violation of registrar or hosting TOU.

Someone should look into it….

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@nobody

Here’s the thing…real or not, they’re hosting this on their own website now? They may be in violation of registrar or hosting TOU.

Someone should look into it….

They’re on Saidit, which appears to have very few rules (no porn and no illegal substance sales but that’s about it) and is hosted by Cloudflare, the infamous former hosts of 8chan and The Daily Stormer who only dropped those after the Christchurch shooting.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@ED James

Also, what in the name of Jonny Sins c*ck is WoLF suppose to be?

Women’s Liberation Front. It’s a group that masquerades as a radical feminist organization but in reality seems to only care about opposing trans rights and is known to receive most of its funding from Religious Right groups.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@Cryp Dyke : I don’t know if that’s what you’re trying to say, but TERF are very obviously not feminists. Just like republicains aren’t in favor of a republic.

It’s deep inside the DNA of trans-exclusionary. If you put men and women on specific roles and archetype, then you’re not a feminist. Fundamentally, trans exclusion is misogyne, and misandre.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Ohlmann

@Cryp Dyke : I don’t know if that’s what you’re trying to say, but TERF are very obviously not feminists. Just like republicains aren’t in favor of a republic.

AFAICT the term started because this variant of transphobia springs from a strand of radical feminists in the 1970s like Mary Daly and Janice Raymond (though their feminist credentials are a bit debatable as well, by modern standards most of their ideas would likely be considered antifeminist and both very clearly were heavily influenced by conservative Catholicism).

It’s deep inside the DNA of trans-exclusionary. If you put men and women on specific roles and archetype, then you’re not a feminist.

Or, in comic form:
http://www.transadvocate.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/transphobia_mistake.jpg
(ETA: I don’t know why the image isn’t embedding)

Fundamentally, trans exclusion is misogyne, and misandre.

It’s also closely tied to racism, as a lot of cultural ideas of femininity and masculinity are linked to race and most stereotypical gender roles in modern society are results of European colonialism. This is why it especially irks me when TERFs call trans people colonizers (which they do fairly often), because a) the vast majority of TERFs are white and b) colonialism is when transphobia spread worldwide, when Europeans imposed binary gender on societies around the world.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Magnesium
Magnesium
1 month ago

Who had “TERFs merge with Qanon” on their 2020 Hell-Bingo card?

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
1 month ago

I don’t know about California, but the citizen’s arrest laws in Canada are pretty limited, and I’d assume they’re similar elsewhere:

  1. You must have witnessed the crime being committed in person, or be intercepting someone on the run from someone who does have the authority to perform an arrest. For some offences, only the first is acceptable.
  2. You must do no more than reasonable detainment of the person until the responsible authorities arrive; you aren’t even allowed to search their possessions, and shouldn’t use any significant level of force.

Going after people they’ve seen on Pornhub already violates point 1. Having a gun with you pretty much violates point 2 as well.

The actual rules are given a layman’s description at https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/other-autre/wyntk.html

(Some of this actually came up in an online Superhero RPG I was playing set in Vancouver, B.C. Anybody wanting to be a superhero was very strongly encouraged to learn about the relevant laws, just like anybody getting first aid training is taught about Good Samaritan laws.)

Just to add a bit more detail to what ‘nobody’ said above. Unless you’re calling the police on someone immediately, you’re really not supposed to detain them at all.

Dalillama
1 month ago

Back when I used men’s rooms, I got endless doubletakes from dudes confused by my long hair and slender figure*.

*At the time I was painfully thin; I’m up 70 lbs and counting since then and frankly feel much better overall.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

Somewhat relevant: TERFs have also decided that doctors responding to their transphobic form letters is more important than saving people in a pandemic. No, really.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

Since it comes up occasionally, I figure I might as well address it now: “Anti-Antifa? Isn’t that just fascist?”

Certainly, there are some people who say that who are fascists or at least fascist-adjacent. As well as the occasional “very serious person” who doesn’t agree with fascism but considers it to be a valid entry in the “marketplace of ideas” and the Antifa movement to be a “disruptive menace” (while ignoring the fact that the pro-fascist movement is just as much of a “menace” by their standards because it doesn’t affect them personally). But on the other hand, there are also people who consider Antifa to be a Q-anon level cult – fighting phantoms, and inflicting splash damage on real people. To them, that response almost might as well be “Anti-Antivamp? Isn’t that just a vampire?”

The key is that you can be against a misnamed or mistargeted group or movement without being for the things they claim to be against. Or for that matter, a group or movement which you mistakenly believe to be misnamed or mistargeted.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Snowberry

Certainly, there are some people who say that who are fascists or at least fascist-adjacent. As well as the occasional “very serious person” who doesn’t agree with fascism but considers it to be a valid entry in the “marketplace of ideas”

I would argue there isn’t really a such thing as fascist-adjacent, anyone close to being a fascist is one. There’s a saying about this: if one Nazi is at a table and 10 other people are talking to him and listening, there are now 11 Nazis at that table. To work with fascists, to accept fascism as a valid ideology, is to be complicit, and so anyone who is adjacent to fascists is one, not adjacent. Fascism is an insidious ideology that creeps into discourse through people claiming to be neutral or centrist but who parrot fascist talking points.

bekabot
bekabot
1 month ago

“Self rape?”

‘Self-rape’ = ‘masturbate’, is my guess.

These women could be described as very Victorian, if it weren’t true that actual Victorian women (as we know from their diaries and memoirs) were in fact super physical and extremely fond of sex (with men and with each other). What this is, is the Angel-in-the-House mythos (according to which an adult woman is ‘pure’ in the sense that she has no physicality which is not imposed on her from some outside source) taken with the literalness accorded the less imaginative forms of Gospel. (Whereas the Victorians themselves nurtured it and played it out while knowing it was untrue.)

I used to suspect that J. K. Rowling was a devotee of this branch of folklore, and now I’m afraid I’m certain of it. The difference being, of course, that the original worshippers of the Angel paid their respects with a wink, since they knew they were visiting a shrine erected solely by themselves, but that Rowling and her followers pursue theirs in deadly earnest — if there is no Angel, if there’s no such thing as The Lady, then by God they’ll force the Angel or The Lady to exist — and if they find they can’t, then they’ll make the world pay.

May heaven help us all.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@Naglfar:

There’s a saying about this: if one Nazi is at a table and 10 other people are talking to him and listening, there are now 11 Nazis at that table. To work with fascists, to accept fascism as a valid ideology, is to be complicit, and so anyone who is adjacent to fascists is one, not adjacent. Fascism is an insidious ideology that creeps into discourse through people claiming to be neutral or centrist

I hadn’t heard of that saying, but for me, that line of thinking sets off alarm bells. I lurk in a lot of places, and I’ve seen that type of wording being used in conservative Christian groups against Muslims.

I’m not saying that Nazism is in any way a good ideology. I’m saying using that kind of logic to claim any ideology is bad might be dangerous.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@Snowberry : TBH, the average anti-antifa is closer to a vampire exterminator : he want to destroy something that don’t exist. The trick is dispelling the notion of antifa as a secret society.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Snowberry

I lurk in a lot of places, and I’ve seen that type of wording being used in conservative Christian groups against Muslims.

That seems like a logical fallacy. The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists and do not support terrorism. However, all fascists by definition support fascism as an ideology, which is inherently bigoted and anti-democratic.

I’m not saying that Nazism is in any way a good ideology. I’m saying using that kind of logic to claim any ideology is bad might be dangerous.

The problem is, if we acknowledge fascism as legitimate, it’s halfway to winning. The paradox of tolerance suggests that to remain tolerant we can’t tolerate intolerance, and fascism is by definition intolerant. By giving fascists a seat at the table we give them power. By making it clear that we will not tolerate them, we take that power away.

I am not calling you a fascist or trying to make a personal attack at all. But the argument that we can’t condemn fascists because it’s a slippery slope sounds a lot like “there are fine people on both sides” to me.

@Ohlmann
That’s the hard part. Cult members (and I’m pretty sure QAnon fans fit that description) generally ignore anyone who tries to indicate other than what their chorus says, often assuming that anyone who tries to tell them otherwise is part of the conspiracy.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Chris
Chris
1 month ago

I HAVE used pornhub’s report function. I have seen them take down videos as well. I’m sure they don’t want to be shut down by the FBI. (Edit: I’ve started using onlyfans, I feel better giving money to performers for their work)

(Damn I forgot my photo is up there)

But sometimes I think trans women need to start carrying guns themselves. I know statistically guns don’t protect cis women from their stalkers/ abusers, but a gun might protect a trans woman from a complete stranger. These TERFs make me so upset, I hate the harm they cause.

Last edited 1 month ago by Chris
Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Chris
I do know of a few trans people who do carry guns (like occasional commenter Alexis Filth). I don’t carry one because I live in a blue state and I don’t want to give money to firearm companies, but some do.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

That seems like a logical fallacy. The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists and do not support terrorism.

Pedantry alert: Using incorrect premises isn’t a logical fallacy, it’s an unsound argument. If there’s any logical fallacy here, and I’m not certain whether there is, then it’s a logical fallacy to use it against any ideology.

The problem is, if we acknowledge fascism as legitimate, it’s halfway to winning. The paradox of tolerance suggests that to remain tolerant we can’t tolerate intolerance, and fascism is by definition intolerant. By giving fascists a seat at the table we give them power. By making it clear that we will not tolerate them, we take that power away.

I’m not saying to let them have a seat at the table anyway, because of some fear of a slippery slope, only that it seems like a poor basis to exclude them. If you’re going to assert that nazism is an uniquely destructive brain-hijacking phenomenon like a human cordyceps fungus, then that requires a very high burden of proof. If merely asserting it were valid because it seems so, then what’s to stop anyone else from any group who honestly believed that other ideologies very different from their own were “infectious mental diseases” or similar from doing the same thing? They’d have a similarly high burden of proof, and why wasn’t it applied in your case? I’m only asking to use a stronger and less messy argument. You yourself mentioned the seed of a better one: the intolerance paradox. That’s not sufficient in itself (for example, it contains the assumption that tolerance being good is more than a mere value judgement, something I’ve never personally seen addressed) but at least it lacks the problematic line of thinking implied by “1 nazis + 10 listeners = 11 nazis”.

Dalillama
1 month ago

@Snowberry
The difference is very obvious, and no amount of your apologetics alters that. Incidentally, knock it right the fuck off with your fascist apologia, you’re frankly making me ill reading your bullshit.

Since it appears that the previous explanations have not penetrated the shield of liberalism around your brain, let me spell it out for you in words of no more that two syllables:
Fascists want to kill me. This is always a part of fascism. Fascists want to kill all the people I care about. Again, all fascists, all the time. This is not true of e.g. Islam. This should be plain to you. The fact that it is not makes one worry rather a lot. If someone treats fascism as a valid point of view, that person is ok with me being killed, along with my loved ones.

Last edited 1 month ago by Dalillama
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

I’m not saying to let them have a seat at the table anyway, because of some fear of a slippery slope, only that it seems like a poor basis to exclude them.

They had a “seat at the table,” and were forcibly removed for annexing the roast and gravy and killing a large number of guests.

My grandfather was in a POW camp, and talked odd times of the random cruelties and inhumanities. My uncle (the shepherd who were allergic to dogs, not the one with the raven) survived 2 years in Dachau. He weren’t Jewish, he were a Gypsy, married Dad’s sister after the war. Came to England because his entire clan were just … gone.

He weren’t one as was quiet about what he’d seen around us kids – though he’d never talk about what were done to him.

There is NO need for some “Good basis to exclude them.” They can fuck off.

(Sometimes I find the comments rules slightly limiting)

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@Dalilama:

The difference is very obvious

Punch Nazis. Kill them if you have to, to defend yourself and others. I’m saying that if “1 Nazi + 10 Listeners = 11 Nazis” were actually true, then “it is very obvious” is not. And vice versa. You want to use the exact same flawed arguments as the fanatics you hate because your people alone possess the ultimate truth? Okay, it’s your right, I won’t stop you…

You don’t think Nazis won’t target people I love? I’m a bisexual person, and part of some local alt-culture groups which contain large numbers of other LGBTQIA+ people. Hardly a disinterested outsider. I’m looking at the forest and not just the trees, and trying to replace the double-edged swords some of us use in favor of single-edged ones where possible. Less self-inflicted injuries that way.

Last edited 1 month ago by Snowberry
Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Snowberry

Using incorrect premises isn’t a logical fallacy, it’s an unsound argument. If there’s any logical fallacy here, and I’m not certain whether there is, then it’s a logical fallacy to use it against any ideology.

It’s a false equivalent. That may not be formally a logical fallacy, but it’s still faulty or disingenuous reasoning.

only that it seems like a poor basis to exclude them.

What’s a good basis to exclude them? We’ve seen how fascism plays out.

If you’re going to assert that nazism is an uniquely destructive brain-hijacking phenomenon like a human cordyceps fungus, then that requires a very high burden of proof.

  1. That isn’t what I said
  2. How’s World War II and the Holocaust as proof? When you legitimize fascism, you get the Holocaust and World War II, which between them killed 90,000,000 people.

If merely asserting it were valid because it seems so, then what’s to stop anyone else from any group who honestly believed that other ideologies very different from their own were “infectious mental diseases” or similar from doing the same thing?

Can you drop the ableist straw man? We know how fascism works, I didn’t say it was a mental disease, we know how this plays out.

I’m looking at the forest and not just the trees, and trying to replace the double-edged swords some of us use in favor of single-edged ones where possible. Less self-inflicted injuries that way.

There wasn’t any self-inflicted injury that I am aware of as a result of excluding Nazis.

@Threp

There is NO need for some “Good basis to exclude them.” They can fuck off.

Exactly. I am reminded of Mona Eltahawy’s declarations against civility. Civility is only worth using when your opponent reciprocates. Otherwise, you’re bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Sorry to hear about your relatives in the camps. My ancestors, by virtue of having arrived in America mostly during the 1910s-1920s, mostly avoided the fate they would have met in Europe, but my great-grandmother’s cousins (my first cousins 3x removed) were almost entirely killed off during the Holocaust. Only one survived Bergen-Belsen.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@Threp:

There is NO need for some “Good basis to exclude them.” They can fuck off.

YES THERE IS. As the silent generation grows ever more silent, and the memory of WWII grows ever more distant, you need a bit more than looking like a bully, because the perceived unfairness in the eyes of people for whom this can be forgived as a distant history will be exactly what will insure they get a seat on the table.

It wasn’t the current crop of Nazis who set fire to the table and killed the guests. You shouldn’t judge people by the actions of their great-grandparents. You need a stronger argument than, “well some guys nearly a century ago were bad”. If that were the case, then communism and possibly socialism would be off the table forever.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

the “self rape” is what they call women who do solo like cam work and all that. basically a lot of the women who do only fans who masturbate with dildos or vibrators or anal plugs and so on. Had to deal with this crowd a bunch of time with the bdsm club my husband and I go too.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

@Naglfar

one time a TERF accused me of being trans online because i used the word “cunt” and obviously no cis woman would ever use that word. They have a very narrow view of what cis womanhood is and if you don’t reach it your not a real woman no matter what parts you have.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Snowberry

YES THERE IS. As the silent generation grows ever more silent, and the memory of WWII grows ever more distant, you need a bit more than looking like a bully, because the perceived unfairness in the eyes of people for whom this can be forgived as a distant history will be exactly what will insure they get a seat on the table.

I’m not quite sure I’m reading this right, but the solution seems to be to educate about the Nazis and the Holocaust. IIRC close to a majority of Americans don’t know that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, so we really do need to educate about that. I’m not sure what better argument there is against fascism than “they killed millions of people and that’s the point.”

You shouldn’t judge people by the actions of their great-grandparents.

If that were the case, then communism and possibly socialism would be off the table forever.

This isn’t some hypothetical future issue. Fascism is rising now, and we need to stop it. Debating semantics isn’t helping. Communism and socialism are not ideologies designed to kill millions of people. Fascism is rooted in it.

@Lainy

They have a very narrow view of what cis womanhood is and if you don’t reach it your not a real woman no matter what parts you have.

I know a cis woman whom TERFs said couldn’t have been cis because she said she liked her breasts. Because apparently no cis woman has ever liked her body.

Last edited 1 month ago by Naglfar
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

You shouldn’t judge people by the actions of their great-grandparents.

When their words and actions are identical in every way to those of their ideological great-grandparents … yes, I will judge them in the same measure.
When they praise and imitate those ideological great-grandparents … yes, I will judge them in the same measure.

@Naglfar

Sorry to hear about your relatives in the camps.

Thanks. It were wartime, the risks were worth the price, he always said. My uncle wasn’t just grabbed up on a street sweep – he was a runner for the resistance for a couple years before getting caught and sent to be worked to death. Who better? He knew all the back roads, alleys, isolated fields and unguarded gates. 🙂

Tough old bastard, he were. Still miss him at times.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

This isn’t some hypothetical future issue. Fascism is rising now, and we need to stop it. Debating semantics isn’t helping. Communism and socialism are not ideologies designed to kill millions of people. Fascism is rooted in it.

Curiously, there are a lot of people who think the opposite. Isn’t that kind of part of the problem?

Is there a fascist breaking down your door right now? No? Then you have time to think about both the present and the future. Or if you do, metaphorically speaking, then you’re excused, but other people aren’t. I plan to live a very long time and am not looking forward to having to deal with this crap again in 25 years or whenever.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

I know a cis woman whom TERFs said couldn’t have been cis because she said she liked her breasts. Because apparently no cis woman has ever liked her body.

Yeah, what was crazy about it is I was talking about my own body! I was talking about what i call and prefer to call my own genitals and she went fucking off. The TERF you talked to would really hate me because I love my breast. Their my best feature