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How can I flirt with a woman without accidentally making her feel good about herself, alpha male wannabe wonders

Show some sympathy for the poor alpha male trainee confused about how to flirt with women without inadvertently making them feel good about themselves by telling them they look pretty or something.

How do you flirt without validating,” someone called Lanaskillet wonders in a post on the Ask the Red Pill subreddit. He knows the general Red Pill stance is “to avoid validating and kissing up to women but,” he asks,

how do you even show interest to begin with. Talking to them without any sort of compliment will just have her thinking of you as just a man without a penis right? Push/pull to me seems like the only answer but even then it’s some sort of validation for them since you still give them a feel good statement. I’m trying to comprehend this part of the red pill

The trick, I imagine, is to figure out how to compliment a woman without making her feel good, about herself or about anything, really.

You’re beautiful — like the precious lives so cruelly snuffed out on 9/11.

If you were a fish, I bet you’d be a cod.

Your head shape appears to be within normal parameters.

You have a sister? Let me guess: she’s the pretty one?

Your makeup really makes your eyes pop … I mean, bulge.

You look better than you smell.

You’re almost as pretty as my mother.

You remind me a lot of this bug I once saw.

Are you a national park? Because you look like you’re open for drilling.

Are those your actual toes?

Use any of these suggestions and you’ll be in like Flynn.

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Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ bookworm

has anyone heard from Surplus lately? I’m worried about them;

Yeah, same here.

Hey Surplus; if you’re lurking can you just drop a quick post to say you’re ok?

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

OT update on JK: The hashtag #RipJKRowling is trending and TERFs are losing it.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
2 months ago

Not massively worried about Surplus yet – his crash cycle after the peak seems to be steady at about 10 days – but am a little bit.

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

O/T, but this may be of use if you’re ever arguing with a ‘pro-lifer’ who’s also against contraception.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/14/gp-cash-incentive-linked-to-fall-in-uk-abortion-rates-study-finds

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
2 months ago

@ Alan, that’s really interesting. I’m pro-choice myself but I do have a lot of prolifer friends. I disagree with them but they’re…not evil about their views, or their reasons for feeling as they do.

But for the life of me, I will never understand how someone can be against birth control.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw
There have been similar results in the United States, both with similar systems to the article and with abstinence-only education. Planned Parenthood’s distribution of contraceptives prevents far more abortions than they have ever performed.

Unfortunately, most anti-choicers are resistant to statistics, and if you argue with them enough most will eventually reveal that really they just want to punish women who have sex. There are of course exceptions, but in my experience many do hold this view.

Last edited 2 months ago by Naglfar
Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

I’m prepping some material for talks in the hopefully not too over optimistic belief that soon we’ll be able to do them live again.

This is a paper that I’ll be blatantly plagiarising using as a resource. It may be of interest to some peeps here as it talks about a lot of the things we discuss. It’s very intersectional.

http://www.individual.utoronto.ca/rogues/PunkCuisine.pdf

Dalillama
2 months ago

@Bookworm in Hijab

that’s really interesting. I’m pro-choice myself but I do have a lot of prolifer friends. I disagree with them but they’re…not evil about their views, or their reasons for feeling as they do.

But for the life of me, I will never understand how someone can be against birth control.

Because they’re not sincere about their reasons for opposing abortion. People who oppose abortion invariably do so for reasons entirely unrelated to the proportion of fertilized ovae that result in births, and entirely due to a desire to control AFAB people, especially as regards their sex lives.

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ bookworm in hijab

they’re…not evil about their views

A lot of time there are people whose views I vehemently disagree with, but I have to accept they hold them in good faith. So whilst I can’t see any point in debating with people who, for example, just obstruct fertility choices as a way of controlling people, there are people I can try to have a genuine discussion with. Like there’s a lot of crossover in veganism with people who believe in the tenets of Jainism or some people of Hindu faith who genuinely do believe life begins at conception (or even earlier in some cases but that gets a bit metaphysical). It gets quite the moral maze when I use the ‘involuntary life support’ metaphor with people who believe they would be under a duty to donate a kidney to save someone.

Sort of related, I have some very interesting chats with muslim vegan mates. That can be quite a hot topic in the Ummah! But some really interesting commentary and discussion around various Quranic verses and Hadiths! I love stuff like that.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw

It gets quite the moral maze when I use the ‘involuntary life support’ metaphor with people who believe they would be under a duty to donate a kidney to save someone.

These discussions also indicate a possible doublethink or dissonance between practice and theory: a lot of people would possibly believe that in theory, but most probably do not put it into practice by actually donating kidneys. There are a lot of cases where people may (in good faith or otherwise) believe on thing and do another, like how most Americans surveyed think that it’s important to learn a second language but less than 20% can hold a conversation in a second language.

Re: discussions of veganism and religion. I am Jewish and vegetarian, and I know a number of fellow Jews who are vegans or vegetarians either for reasons of belief or for practical reasons (kosher meat being expensive or hard to obtain in many places, for instance).

I’ve also discussed vegetarianism with some Christian friends, and it appears a number of Christian sects practice vegetarianism for varied reasons, some for ethical reasons, others for more creative reasons such as Sylvester Graham, who believed that sexual thoughts and nocturnal emissions were caused by the consumption of meat and that a vegetarian diet would prevent them. He invented the Graham cracker to help, and he also had some weird ideas about yogurt enemas.

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ naglfar

Oh indeed. Jains though do seem to be particularly big on organ donation. There’s something in their faith that makes it the biggest act of charity; especially donating eyes. Jains account for something like 85-90% of organ donations in India. Obviously that’s mainly post-mortem. Indian law generally only allows live donations between family members; but if you do need kidney a Jain family member will often be more than willing. I guess that’s less of an issue if you believe the body is just a temporary vessel.

ETA: Now I’m reminded of the Simpsons episode (back when it was good) with Flanders donating a kidney.

“Who are you donating to?”

“First come, first served!”

Although Ned is perhaps a christian exemplar that most people would find hard to live up to.

Last edited 2 months ago by Alan Robertshaw
Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

O/T: Looks like ICE has been doing hysterectomies on large numbers of women whom they have detained. Unsurprising, but horrible nevertheless.

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
2 months ago

Just feel a need to butt in re Graham crackers, because I’ve read Stella Parks’ excellent (and very well-researched) book Bravetart: Iconic American Desserts, which along with being a cookbook also has a lot of culinary/commercial history. Fascinating stuff.
Anyway, Graham did not invent the crackers; he was much too strict about food to allow anything with sugar or fat in it. He even recommended to his followers to grind their own wholemeal flour (“Graham flour”) whenever possible, and had very bad things to say about bakers and their practices. So bakers hated him – and I mean hated, as in “barricaded a hotel where he was staying and threatening violence”.
So, while there isn’t an actual documented source for where the name started, Parks’ idea that it was a sort of mean joke by bakers to make these really not terribly wholesome and not Graham-approved biscuits, using some wholemeal flour, and name them “Graham crackers”, seems generally reasonable.

Go read Bravetart! It’s so good, I’ve barely ever cooked from it (it can be a bit too calibrated to American tastes and ingredients) but still happy I bought it for all the history.

Last edited 2 months ago by Penny Psmith
Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ penny

Ooh, that was interesting. I can see a pub quiz question coming on. Maybe “What links…” and then things named for people who didn’t invent them.

So we have Graham Crackers

I think also Molotov Cocktails?

Any other examples anyone?

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Penny Psmith
My apologies, I stand corrected. I had thought the crackers were invented by Graham. Thank you for the additional info and corrections.

Last edited 2 months ago by Naglfar
Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
2 months ago

No apologies needed. 🙂 You know how sometimes you read about a thing and just love when it gets mentioned so you could jump in with the Thing You Know? That’s basically that.

(Also, chocolate chip cookies were not invented by accident, they have precedents before the famous Toll House story and the person who created them had much too much experience in recipe development for it to be an “oops, but hey this tastes good” moment. Most likely just a publicity story. But she deserves more credit for that, really, and definitely deserves me remembering her name and not being too tired to look it up right now. Oh well. Good night!)

Dalillama
2 months ago

@Alan
Boycotts are named after their original target, not their inventors.

Silhouettes are apparently named for a French finance minister who was such a budget hawk his name became synonymous with cheap second-rate imitations, like a picture that’s just an outline.

Hooker, in the meaning of sex worker rather than small boat, is a special case: General Hooker certainly didn’t invent sex work, but his practice of maintaining official army brothels led to the residents of same calling themselves “Hooker’s Battalion”, and the name stuck.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Penny Psmith
I had my doubts about that old legend about the cookies, it seemed too good to be true. Thank you for confirming my suspicions about it.

@Alan Robertshaw
In math there are a ton of proofs and concepts named after people who didn’t find them. Usually because someone discovered it a long time ago, then more recently some white guy found a proof and got published.
And the amount of misattributed quotes is massive, if that counts.

@Dalillama
An anecdote about General Hooker: In Boston, the Massachusetts State House has a large statue of him in front of one of the entrances, which is called the General Hooker Entrance.
comment image
A few years ago there was a movement to rename it, but that failed and the name has remained. I remember visiting the state house when I was younger and finding it rather funny.

Last edited 2 months ago by Naglfar
Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ Dali

The Boycott and Silhouette ones work well with the other examples. Then the theme is things named after people in a sort of derogatory way.

ETA: The hooker one reminds me of the supposed origin of “show a leg” meaning get out of bed.

Last edited 2 months ago by Alan Robertshaw
NautaliaC
NautaliaC
2 months ago

Looks like ICE has been doing hysterectomies on large numbers of women whom they have detained. Unsurprising, but horrible nevertheless

I had just read that and I thought I would have righteous rage. As someone in healthcare, it just makes me sick and cry.

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
2 months ago

Hold on — J. K. Rowling is <i>dead</i>?! When did this happen and why isn’t it being reported anywhere else?

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ penny

The choc chip cookie one reminds me of the supposed origin of crisps (or ‘chips’* for our colonial friends).

The story I was told was that someone in a posh restaurant ordered chips (in the English sense; what US people might call ‘fries’*) but complained they were cut too thick. After multiple unsuccessful attempts to satisfy the diner’s demands the chef just went “Well fuck this for a game of soldiers” and just cut the potato as thinly as possible to take the piss.

I don’t know whether that’s true; although I do know enough chefs to find that very believable.

(*two nations separated by a common language indeed!)

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw
I’ve heard that story as well, though it appears to be apocryphal.

Dalillama
2 months ago

@Alan
While New York chef George Crum was the major populariser of potato chips/crisps as “Saratoga chips” (which were promptly copied and he couldn’t patent them on account of not being white), the earliest recorded recipe is some 30 years older and comes from a health food book by a (British) physician named Kitchener.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
2 months ago

@opposablethumbs:
Regarding the ‘Basque’ versus ‘vache’ change, I can’t confirm or deny that (I’m a primarily English-speaking Canadian who knows enough French to read but not to speak well, and enough German to get into trouble but not out of it again). But that certainly sounds reasonable.

Of course, so do a number of other similar stories that we have evidence were made up as ‘Just So’ stories centuries later, so that’s not saying much.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

So sorry to go O/T again, but I just have to because Jacob Wohl is at it again.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/jacob-wohl-staged-fake-fbi-raid-on-business-partner-actor-hired-for-production-says

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
2 months ago

@Alan, @Naglfar

This may interest you. An ancestor of mine was an explorer, and he kept a diary of his travels.

16th March. We kept up the Staunton to William Englishs. He lives on a small Branch, and was not much hurt by the Fresh. He has a mill, which is the furtherest back except one lately built by the Sect of People who call themselves of the Brotherhood of Euphrates, and are commonly called the Duncards, who are the upper Inhabitants of the New River, which is about 400 yards wide at this place. They live on the west side, and we were obliged to swim our horses over.9 The Duncards are an odd set of people who make it a matter of Religion not to Shave their Beards, ly on beds, or eat flesh, though at the present, in the last, they transgress, being constrained to it, they say, by the want of a sufficiency of Grain and Roots, they have not long been seated here. I doubt the plenty and deliciousness of the Venison and Turkeys has contributed not a little to this. The unmarried have no Property but live on a common Stock. They don’t baptize either Young or Old, they keep their Sabbath on Saturday, and hold that all men shall be happy hereafter, but first must pass through punishment according to their Sins. They are very hospitable.

Proof that the States have always had odd little sects running around.

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ Vicky P

That is interesting; thank you!

not to Shave their Beards, ly on beds, or eat flesh

That’s basically me at any music festival.

What does “not much hurt by the Fresh” mean do you know?

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
2 months ago

@Alan

What does “not much hurt by the Fresh” mean do you know?

I’m afraid I’m not sure. A lot of his journal for this trip involved describing rivers and other waterways, so I’ve supposed that Great-Great-Great-etc.-Grandfather was describing a recent flood or a vigorous river.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@VP
Do you know if this is the same group he was referring to? If so, it appears they still exist.

Dalillama
2 months ago

@Alan
The fresh in this context would be a recent flood, probably caused by smowmelt.

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ Vicky P

Hmm, got me thinking of possibilities.

The way it’s written may suggest somehow it’s connected with living on the river branch.

At first I thought maybe fresh water? But that doesn’t really seem to make much sense in context.

We sometimes use fresh here to mean cold; as in “Brrr, it’s a bit fresh out there today.” Wonder if that’s it?

ETA: Ah cheers Dali. That makes much more sense.

Last edited 2 months ago by Alan Robertshaw
Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
2 months ago

@Naglfar

Yep, I believe that’s the same group!

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ naglfar

Dunkard Brethren

I initially read that as drunkard brethren and wondered where I signed up.

Full Metal Ox
2 months ago

@Naglfar:

<I>O/T: Looks like ICE has been doing hysterectomies on large numbers of women whom they have detained. Unsurprising, but horrible nevertheless.</I>

And with abundant precedent:

http://mississippiappendectomy.wordpress.com/about/

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/03/07/469478098/the-supreme-court-ruling-that-led-to-70-000-forced-sterilizations

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
2 months ago

Wow, I go to work for a few hours and come back to so many interesting comments! This site is great. 😄

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
2 months ago

@ Alan,

That can be quite a hot topic in the Ummah!

…to put it mildly? 😆

Diego
Diego
2 months ago

“O/T: Looks like ICE has been doing hysterectomies on large numbers of women whom they have detained. Unsurprising, but horrible nevertheless.”

Not sure how many times we have to say this is genocide and these are concentration camps before the liberals listen.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
2 months ago

That ICE stuff is so vile,

An amusing case of french etymology is that waste bins are called “poubelle”, from the name of the guy who imposed their use in Paris. As a patronym it lost a lot of popularity since then.

Technically, it’s also a case of something not named for its inventor.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
2 months ago

Thanks, Jenora. Yeah, it does sound reasonable – but we humans do love our just-so stories, so … guess I’ll file it under “dunno” (an excessively large category for me) until or unless somebody further enlightens 🙂

Big Titty Demon
Big Titty Demon
2 months ago

@ Penny Psmith

Huh, I totally had Sylvester Graham’s history mixed up with Kellogg’s history. I’m indebted to you for making me fact-check your report, which is 100% correct. I can’t even imagine a vegetarian causing a riot of butchers and bakers today, so… progress?

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
2 months ago

@opposablethumb : as a french speaker, I never ever have heard of “parler comme un basque espagnol”.

The etymology might be true (I have been raised quite further east than the Pays Basque), but it do reek of anti-basque racism.

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ big titty demon

I can’t even imagine a vegetarian causing a riot of butchers and bakers today

Sainsburys set up a meat-free butchers in Shoreditch (of course)

comment image

And that did provoke this!

comment image

Admittedly it’s not exactly the Storming of the Bastille.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw
Did the meat free butcher sell things like imitation meats and substitutes? If so, that sounds rather useful, as it’s hard to find those sometimes.

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ naglfar

Basically it’s all the same stuff they sell in the regular Sainsbury’s but put out on trays rather than in packets.

That’s Shoreditch for you.

(I shouldn’t dig; I love the place)

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
2 months ago

It alway amaze me how much effort some people are able to do just because someone else do something not destined for them.

A bunch of vegan and vegetarian are annoying, but I much prefer doing some efforts to, you know, just be less annoying than them, than trying to one up and make myself even more of a nuisance than them.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Ohlmann

It alway amaze me how much effort some people are able to do just because someone else do something not destined for them.

At this point, it seems the main philosophy of many conservatives is to be obnoxious because someone is doing something different, i.e. “owning the libs.” Instead of just not getting an abortion or not entering into a gay marriage, conservatives have to be assholes to people for those things.

For a more on-topic example, I saw a conservative meme the other day saying that they will eat twice as much meat to make up for vegans. Or, as someone who doesn’t eat meat and is Jewish, I’ve had antisemites tell me they will eat extra pork to make up for me not eating it. Truth be told, I really don’t care what they eat, but I think they were expecting a different reaction. Pigs aren’t kosher, but the reason for that is because the meat spoils in a Mediterranean climate, not because they are viewed as holy or special. Although I do think potbellied pigs are cute.
comment image

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ olhmann

It alway amaze me how much effort some people are able to do just because someone else do something not destined for them

There’s a guy called sv3rige who turns up at vegan things and eats raw squirrels at us.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/13/man-who-ate-raw-pigs-head-at-vegan-festival-stabbed-four-classmates-at-school-9184229/

@ Varalys is the expert on him though, so I’ll let her fill in the details if she’s about.

He does have some rather unpleasant views though; he’s an unapologetic rape proponent for a start.

Last edited 2 months ago by Alan Robertshaw
Ohlmann
Ohlmann
2 months ago

Someone who eat raw squirrels to spite people is already pretty unpleasant. I am not against squirrel-eating in general, but eating them raw in front of an audience seem much more motivated by spite than by taste.

I mean, still small potatoes compared to being a rape apologist. But I don’t expect that kind of individual to be pleasant TBH.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
2 months ago

There’s a guy called sv3ige who turns up at vegan things and eats raw squirrels at us

Oh, him. He’s an embarrassment to humanity. Not edgy or particularly irritating, just embarrassing. I can just see our far distant ancestors slapping him upside the head and saying “We tamed fire for a reason!”