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a new woman to hate harassment misogyny

Novak Djokovic booted from US Open after hitting line judge with a ball; his fans respond by sending her death threats

Djokovic comforts the line judge after hitting her in the neck with a ball

Tennis star Novak Djokovic got himself booted from the US Open on Sunday after he — accidentally, it seems — hit a line judge in the throat with a tennis ball, sending her sprawling to the ground clutching her neck.

Djokovic’s suspension was pretty much automatic — the rules are clear — but rather than blame him for hitting a ball in frustration after play was over, his fans decided to take their anger out on the line judge instead.

As the Daily Mail explained:

Fans of the world No 1 were quick to take to social media, finding [the line judge’s] public profile and sending thousands of hate-filled messages, including death threats. …

[Her] son died in 2008, and one of Djokovic’s fans told her ‘don’t worry, you’ll join him soon’ … while another posted: ‘hahahahahahahaha YEEEEES, YEEEEEEEES.’

They were not much more polite on Twitter, calling her a “bitch,” a “cunt” and a “Karen,” and accusing her of exaggerating her pain after being struck by the ball.

There’s nothing, it seems, that online misogynists can’t blame on a woman, but blaming a woman for being hit with a ball is a new one for me.

She didn’t make the rule that got Djokovic disqualified. She didn’t force him to hit the ball in frustration. Her only crime was catching a fast-moving tennis ball in the neck.

Djokovic, for what it’s worth, has asked his fans to stop targeting her, noting that “she’s done nothing wrong.” But somehow I doubt that will shut them up.

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Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
16 days ago

I saw this on TV earlier today while my mom was watching Fox. Fox made it seem like the fans were just frustrated, and didn’t make any mention of death threats. Because of course they didn’t.

Alan Robertshaw
16 days ago

I’ve watched the videos and read the rule book.

The rule is pretty clear, and seems intended precisely to avoid this sort of accident. It’s a health & safety issue; so people on court don’t have to keep an eye out for errant balls when a match is not in play.

You can smack the ball as hard as you want when you’re trying to score a point (and during warm up), and then the onus is on everyone else to avoid being hit.

And health & safety stuff tends to be strict liability; intention is irrelevant.

But those Twitter comments; ugh. There’s something particularly distasteful when people try to justify actions by saying they are defending another person; when that other person has stated they disagree with the action.

Djokovic himself deliberately didn’t name the official in his initial comments on the incident precisely to highlight she did nothing wrong. Which just makes it clear the ‘fans’ are nothing of the sort and just want an excuse to abuse and harass a woman.

Last edited 16 days ago by Alan Robertshaw
Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

but rather than blame him for hitting a ball in frustration after play was over

I don’t know anything about tennis so I could be way off, but this makes it sound to me like it might have been intentional. Djokovic hit the ball under circumstances where he knew he wasn’t supposed to, which makes me think this probably wasn’t an accident on his part.

Viscaria
Viscaria
16 days ago

It’s really frustrating to me that a term was coined to give a name to a specific kind of racism that comes from white women and a bunch of misogynists were like, “Oh, hell yes, a word I’m allowed to call women I don’t like.”

SpecialFrog
SpecialFrog
16 days ago

I do follow tennis and this rule is unambiguous. The top British player of the time was kicked out of Wimbledon for hitting a ball kid under the same circumstances. Another player forfeited a match in a tournament final that he was winning for something similar.

Djokovic contributed to the fan response by ducking press and not making a statement until much later. If he had owned it straight away it would have helped.

Also he is an anti-vaxxer but that is a separate issue.

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@SpecialFrog

Also he is an anti-vaxxer but that is a separate issue.

It’s a separate issue, but I can’t say it really makes him look better. Due to crank magnetism, most antivaxxers are also misogynists and believe other conspiracy theories (like the many antisemitic ones). I steer clear of their kind as much as possible.

SpecialFrog
SpecialFrog
16 days ago

@Naglfar: Indeed. I was considering adding more reasons why I dislike Djokovic but decided to stop there.

Also Djokovic fans should know how hard he hits the ball so claims from them that it wasn’t travelling fast are especially dubious.

ginger
ginger
16 days ago

@Naglfar

I watched the match so I saw the incident as it happened. Earlier in the match, Djokovic had hit a ball in frustration towards the back of the court. He received no warning, and the ball didn’t come close to hitting anyone, so he set a precedent. Sometimes players will hit a ball into the net in frustration, not the wall, or they’ll hit their rackets on the ground.

I honestly don’t think Djokovic intended to hit the line judge. He was simply careless and stupid. The look on his face after the judge fell said it all. After being defaulted, he didn’t talk to the press and actually left the National Tennis Center grounds about an hour later. Some ESPN commentators said he should have met the press and publicly apologize, and I agree. He did, however, apologize on Instagram.

I don’t like Djokovic as a player or a person. He’s extremely arrogant, plus he’s a vocal anti-vaxxer. In this case, though, I really don’t think he deliberately aimed at the line judge.

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@ginger

Some ESPN commentators said he should have met the press and publicly apologize, and I agree.

I agree as well. It’s telling that he let the misogynistic abuse happen first, then he made a statement.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
16 days ago

Ugggh. Karen is not synonym for “bitch” and white men should not be using it at all.
comment image

Chris Oakley
Chris Oakley
16 days ago

Two observations:

1)Whether or not he hit the line judge on purpose, Djokovic deserved his expulsion from the US Open for sheer stupidity alone. In fact if it were up to me, he’d be banned from all major tennis tournaments for life.

2)Matt Booher is an asshole.

Big Titty Demon
Big Titty Demon
16 days ago

Ugggh. Karen is not synonym for “bitch” and white men should not be using it at all.

I don’t think white women should use it either, because I never saw one outside a very specific set of discussions about race use it to mean anything other than “bitch I disapprove of.” Yet somehow I am in the wrong if I point out the misogyny of this, and too sensitive, and jeez can’t some people take a joke it’s not that big of a deal, lighten up and don’t get your panties in a twist. Are you a Karen?

Basically, if you cannot use it in the original sense of the word (of which there definitely seems to be one despite know your meme protesting otherwise), you should not use it because it is a misogynist slur at that point.

People are not Karens for getting hit in the throat with a ball.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
16 days ago

Big Titty Demon,

Yeah, I’ve pretty much stopped using it even though I had only used it in the correct context because so many white women are using it wrong. At the very least, white women need to be really careful. But white men, should never use it ever at all.

That reminds me, I got called a Karen on Twitter twice last week in two separate threads both because I opposed street harassment.

Naglfar
Naglfar
16 days ago

@WWTH, Big Titty Demon

Yeah, I’ve pretty much stopped using it even though I had only used it in the correct context because so many white women are using it wrong.

Same here. I had used it before in what (I think) was the correct context, but have stopped since it got taken over by white dudebros. And yes, some white women are using it harmfully as well, but I think the bigger issue is the white men using it incorrectly. As a white woman, though, I feel it’s not a term for me to use either.

Last edited 16 days ago by Naglfar
Big Titty Demon
Big Titty Demon
16 days ago

That reminds me, I got called a Karen on Twitter twice last week in two separate threads both because I opposed street harassment.

Yep, totally not a euphemism for a different misogynist slur in that context. Hard eyeroll at this. Did they not see the street harassment video of the woman exercising in New York, just wearing regular exercise clothes? Or they did and it’s Karen-y to complain about that, just men giving compliments?

I mean, it’s totally possible for a real Karen to call the police on some innocent Black man and say he harassed her, oh no, she’s afraid for her pure white life, please save her and lock him up. That is real Karen behavior we’ve seen. But it’s a totally separate issue that doesn’t negate the real problem of street harassment.

Although it’s totally on the police that they would come for that call and not for one against a white dude. -.-

I’m sleep-deprived, I feel like this comment is rambling away from me, sorry.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
16 days ago

WTF, this is horrible! Why are dudes like this 🙁 I really hope the judge is going to be okay, a blow to the throat like that is no joke.

@Viscaria and others

Yeah the appropriation of Karen by white misogynists annoys me too. I’ve felt less unwilling to use it myself before because like… even as a white woman I’ve seen some really ridiculous behavior re: other white women calling cops on people. But I think at this point I’m just going to stop using it. Misogynists are invited to go roll in poison ivy, thx.

Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
16 days ago

Djokovic’s fans have no problem with his notorious anger management issues. They also know that getting hit by a ball in the throat is no big deal. If it happened to them, they’d just man up. This line judge, however, apparently has no interest in manning up. Uh-oh, it turns out that the judge is a woman and can’t man up.Therefore she should die.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
16 days ago

I hope she makes it out okay.

FlyByKiwi
FlyByKiwi
16 days ago

I have been discussing with my female cousins the delight with which misogynists of all types have jumped on Karen. It’s now akin to “socialist”. Just dismiss and shut down the person you disapprove of. I also think whatever the rules are, he smashed the ball having a hissy fit. Doesn’t matter if he didn’t intend to hit her. It was extremely reckless and has (as some of you have noted) happened before and wasn’t ok then either. And I didn’t see the same level of concern as was shown for that ball boy who was hit in England some years ago

Lakitha
Lakitha
16 days ago

I feel like this issue is so much more than simply misogyny. Granted, that’s pretty bad, but is death threats how we’re gonna handle all the people we disagree with now? Is that what humanity has just stooped to doing?
Whenever people don’t like something anyone did, or just want to punch down like the misogynists who are threatening this woman, we (I mean that in a generalized humanity way) are just gonna threaten to kill them? I’m trying to think of a person eroding in history where people were generally like that and I can only think of times when “duels” were a thing, and somebody’s honor was involved, but these people aren’t protecting anybody’s honor with this kind of sh*t.

And yeah, the term Karen was created in the black community to refer to a very specific criteria performed by white women. I do t use the term now because just like every term we create, it’s been appropriated by white people, who have bastardized this term, just to abuse women they disagree with. Yeah, that’s not what it’s for. As a general rule though, once terms we create hit the mainstream (i.e. white people/and they always do) black people will invent a new one, and stop using the old terms.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
16 days ago

@PoM : maybe I am too optimistic, but the number of fan who are frustrated and didn’t sent death threat probably outnumber the one who did send death threat 10:1 or more.

At least Djokovic didn’t try to push too much the advantage of having a bunch of dickhead defend you. His behavior wasn’t good enough, but I now take “did not willingly create a death mob” as a pro for one’s moral nowaday.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
15 days ago

@Ohlmann

maybe I am too optimistic, but the number of fan who are frustrated and didn’t sent death threat probably outnumber the one who did send death threat 10:1 or more.

That doesn’t matter. The toxicity of culture that allows people to think that threatening a woman with death is OK is a problem, regardless of what the proportions are. I doubt it’s just this one player who has toxic men in his fanbase, but his own behavior certainly doesn’t discourage them.

Lainy
Lainy
15 days ago

Okay, i’ve been hit in the neck with a tennis ball by someone who is not a pro-tennis player and let me tell you, that shit hurts, i can’t imagine what it would feel like with a full grown man and a pro tennis player doing it. I get that he wasn’t trying to hurt her and he felt bad about it but come on. he’s a grown man. He should know throwing a tantrum gives consequences. My mom and i were watching Naomi Osaka match and she threw her racket when she was having a tough match, my mom turned me and said “her mama gonna have something to say about that” because Naomi is my age.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
15 days ago

@PoM : sure, the majority need to be reminded that they abide and facilitate that kind of excess.

Still, if most were just frustrated, the correct reporting is still that the fans are frustrated, then only talking about the one that go way too far. (and probably put the role of facilitator in stark light)

In other word, it *DOES* matter. Just like it matter that fascisms proponent aren’t the silent majority, but a chunky and agitated minority facilitated by way too many apathic / fearful / intimidated people.

Naglfar
Naglfar
15 days ago

O/T: TERFs have declared that because a male YouTuber (who AFAIK is cis) has a higher voice and looks young, he must secretly be a trans* man trying to convince girls who like programming that they are men or non-binary.

Bluecat
Bluecat
15 days ago

Re: being called a Karen.

I honestly never knew it implied being a racist.
I got called it on Twitter a few months ago after I’d commented *in support of BLM*.
Someone replied, “I don’t think an old bag like you should be allowed to comment”.
I pointed out that as it’s not porn, nobody cares about his erection.
They replied “You must be a Karen” (or that was their next tweet at me: I’m not sure it was meant as a sequitur).
I was vaguely aware it was an insult.
Possibly they didn’t know what it means either.
You live and you learn.

Viscaria
Viscaria
15 days ago

@Naglfar

TERFs are like “the trans cult tries to reduce gender to a bunch of stereotypes! They don’t understand that you can be a ‘masculine’ woman or a ‘feminine’ man!” And then they’re like “Real men have deep voices and are built like Dwayne Johnson, and any man who doesn’t have chest hair sticking out of his shirt is an imposter.”

an autistic giraffe
an autistic giraffe
15 days ago

@Viscaria

We need to abolish gender. Gender is bad. And if you have a better way to abolish gender then forcing everyone to follow strict gender stereotypes of which ever gender they were assigned at birth I’d love to hear it. /sarcasm

Crip Dyke
15 days ago

@Naglfar

I can’t access that tweet (don’t know why). It’s the kind of thing I’d like to write about on my blog. Can you take screen shots of the tweet thread or point me to some other source of info about it?

If you can’t I understand. If you can, thanks a ton!

Naglfar
Naglfar
15 days ago

@Crip Dyke
Here’s a screenshot:
comment image
And, I finally found the original post on Ovarit, which appears to be a new TERF forum site that has sprung up after Reddit banned most of the TERF subs.
https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/3570/many-tifs-look-and-sound-like-13yo-boys
(TW transphobia, general creepiness)
To give a slight bit of credit, some of the responses did point out that there is no real evidence that the YouTuber is trans, but most went off on weird tangents about puberty blockers

@Viscaria
TERF groups are also fond of claiming that GNC people are all LGB, which is obviously homophobic stereotyping, and ignores that there are masculine straight women or feminine straight men.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
15 days ago

TERF groups are also fond of claiming that GNC people are all LGB, which is obviously homophobic stereotyping, and ignores that there are masculine straight women or feminine straight men.

These fuckwits have come full fucking circle. They don’t seem to notice or care that they are coming up with the exact same bullshit as the ultra-conservative bigots of the ’70s and before who wanted us all in skirts and dresses, with long hair and ‘invisible’ makeup, aspiring to be stay-at-home mothers.

Eh, there are so many shitty things going on at the moment that I want to wish these fucking arseholes things bordering on violence, so I’d better stop typing until I feel a bit less pissed off.

Big Titty Demon
Big Titty Demon
15 days ago

@Lakitha

I feel like this issue is so much more than simply misogyny. Granted, that’s pretty bad, but is death threats how we’re gonna handle all the people we disagree with now?

No, it’s how we handle women. There are some specific men that get death threats, but by and large it’s a thing that happens to women. It’s a misogynist thing. It’s not more than simple misogyny.

@POM

That doesn’t matter. The toxicity of culture that allows people to think that threatening a woman with death is OK is a problem, regardless of what the proportions are.

Yup! This! So much this.

@Ohlmann

Still, if most were just frustrated, the correct reporting is still that the fans are frustrated, then only talking about the one that go way too far. (and probably put the role of facilitator in stark light)

I must misunderstand you. A woman was threatened with death and the correct reporting of this incident is that fans were frustrated about a sporting incident, and one (death threats implies plural, though) fan went too far?

Isn’t the correct reporting that a woman was threatened with death by misogynist fans, while sports star delays and then asks fans to stop, but no measurable cessation of harassment is produced? Isn’t it that, although clearly the footage is of masculine authority making and delivering the decision to boot said sports star, a woman’s authority as line judge is questioned, as is her authority to feel pain in her own body?

I don’t understand why the correct reporting should be either sports-star-centric or fan-centric, given the result of what happened. It should focus on what happened to the woman, given the massive, horrendous consequences to her.

Naglfar
Naglfar
15 days ago

@opposablethumbs

They don’t seem to notice or care that they are coming up with the exact same bullshit as the ultra-conservative bigots of the ’70s and before who wanted us all in skirts and dresses, with long hair and ‘invisible’ makeup, aspiring to be stay-at-home mothers.

I think they notice, they just don’t care. TERFs have pretty much merged with the alt right and the TradCons at this point and are working with antiLGBT groups in the US for funding, so it’s no accident that they have the same views as conservatives.

Kaybee
Kaybee
15 days ago

Full confession here: my name is Karen. I have never, even ONCE, pulled the kind of attitude or displayed the kind of behavior that “Karen” is supposed to imply. I’m just sick about the way my name has been stolen and perverted and twisted and used to craft some vicious unintended meaning. Seriously, how is this not appropriation? I don’t really care if this perversion of a perfectly normal name was “created in the black community” or made up by some incel in a basement corner, it was a benign, fairly innocuous name and it NEVER meant this. The whole stupid Karen meme is a way for hip, self-congratulatory people to use a shorthand reference that makes them appear “with-it.”

I don’t even remember if the original offender was actually named Karen, or if somebody just grabbed a cute, catchy, casually vicious, alliterative sound-byte to make a meme to pour more-enlightened-than-thou derision on a mind-set. I know what it’s “supposed” to mean, but none of the dozens of Karens I’ve actually known in my life — most of them perfectly decent, overwhelmingly unremarkable, 50-60-y-o-ish people who are genuinely appalled at the entitled, boorish, privileged behavior suddenly and universally ascribed to them — have behaved in anything like this. I have a 20-y-o niece named Karen, a sensitive and kind and shy young artist, who visibly cringes when people laugh and give her knowing looks when hearing (or overhearing) her name. My heart breaks for her. It’s worse than being named Stacy or Chad or Becky, because it’s now everywhere, it’s casually accepted cruelty, and it’s just unrelenting. I thought this would pass, but it never does.

So maybe stop for a minute before you add to this undeserved misery. None of us earned this. Imagine if your own, personal, unremarkable name suddenly became shorthand for “unrepentant pedophile,” or “brutal torturer of small animals,” or “clueless and vicious abuser of elderly neighbors.” None of the Karens I know asked for any of this. Imagine being so heartsick with the undeserved venom that you try to change your own name in your 60s.

I don’t always live up to my potential. Often I’m less-than-perfect, but I’ve never been this. Yeah, I can be a bitch — but I’m not that bitch.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
15 days ago

… male YouTuber (who AFAIK is cis) has a higher voice …

That’s all it takes for these melons to scream “Trans!!!!!!” ?

Shit, my voice is both fairly high pitched and soft. Where do I report in?

Last edited 15 days ago by Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Crip Dyke
15 days ago

@Naglfar

I said thanks in advance, but allow me to thank you again. I’ve never encountered that before when twitter told me I didn’t have the privileges to access a twitter page to which I had been directly linked.

I have never had a twitter account, but following links always seemed to work before.

Naglfar
Naglfar
15 days ago

@Threp

That’s all it takes for these melons to scream “Trans!!!!!!” ?

The only thing unusual in this case is that they are attacking a man. Usually TERFs harass cis women for not being feminine or for having a certain facial feature and accuse them of being trans*. This especially happens to Black women (see: Michelle Obama, Caster Semenya, a whole load of Black actresses and musicians, etc), which just shows how racist they are and how much cultural ideas of femininity are linked to ideas of whiteness.

@Crip Dyke

I have never had a twitter account, but following links always seemed to work before.

I do use Twitter regularly and it’s been happening more and more over the past couple weeks. Usually refreshing the page seems to fix it, but I don’t know why it’s happening.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
15 days ago

I’m not even convinced that “Karen” started out in the black community. I checked Know Your Meme and there’s no indication there of a black community connection.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/karen

I’m not saying it’s impossible, because Know Your Meme might be overlooking something in a systemic-racist way, but my memory doesn’t match up with the idea either.

I remember a spate of racist white women calling the cops on black people living their lives a couple of years ago (maybe 2018 or 2019) but each of them got a unique nickname, like BBQ Becky, and Pool Patty. I don’t recall Karen ever being anything but a misogynist slur directed toward assertive women who “want to speak with the manager” because god forbid you ever want to speak with the manager while female.

Sheila Crosby
Sheila Crosby
15 days ago

I got punched in the throat once in a karate competition (Ia long time ago). I blacked out, briefly. I wonder how that compares? I mean, a tennis ball has a lot less mass than a fist, but tennis balls have been clocked at over 160 mph and a professional punch is about 20 mph. I think the tennis ball probably had quite a bit more kinetic energy.

I also wonder how many of the people sending death threats are actually Djokovic fans, and how many just enjoy threatening women for a hobby?

Kaybee
Kaybee
15 days ago

@PoM: I’ve seen several iterations of what Karen is “supposed” to mean, but it’s the speed at which this has become just another casual, vicious insult that is so appalling. And it is ubiquitous. This is one of the sites where I come to read smart people discussing relevant issues (and watch kittens and goats jumping on sheet metal), and even here there are truly savvy, educated, articulate people trying to decide if MY NAME is actually code for racist behavior, or who is allowed to use it as an insult, or what the actual context of the uncertain insult is, or whether it’s actually just (just!) another misogynist slur because this complete tool of a Twitter commenter called the line ref “a complete cunt of a Karen.”

I mean, this is not a “term that was coined.” This is a perfectly normal name that has been highjacked, abused, and perverted. I just wish that people would think before playing along with the so-cool-in-the-know expropriation. And believe me — it’s also the split-second evaluation that people now make when they hear your name for the first time that makes me feel sick in the pit of my stomach. It might hit others more personally if it were their name being stolen and redefined.

I’ll drop it, but this literally makes me sick. It is relentless.

Last edited 15 days ago by Kaybee
Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
15 days ago

@Kaybee

I’m actually agreeing with you, although I may not have conveyed that well. The idea that white people are not allowed to use “Karen” but black people are because: appropriation doesn’t really hold up with me. My experience is that it’s never been anything except a slur intended to put down assertive women who won’t take shit from you. It needs to die, for all users.

Alan Robertshaw
15 days ago

@ kaybee

goats jumping on sheet metal

Sorry to hear about your name discomfort. By way of small consolation have a donkey playing football.

Kaybee
Kaybee
15 days ago

@PoM, no, I get it. Thanks for the explanation (really), but yours is NOT the position that gets me so steamed. I also look side-eyed at the claim that only SOME people get to use my name as a dismissive, insulting slur because (reasons).

This is just so personal! I wish its 15 minutes were just over, but I’m afraid this might never pass…

But thanks for the kind words! You’re one of the commenters who keeps me coming back.

Last edited 15 days ago by Kaybee
Kaybee
Kaybee
15 days ago

@Alan Robertshaw: You Rock — this made my evening! Now I need to figure out how to obtain a football-playing donkey.

moregeekthan
moregeekthan
15 days ago

Re: the “Karen” thing, as I remember things, the term “Karen” was used to describe white, middle-class, usually married, usually moms, who were overly-entitled and very quick to ask to speak to the manager of whatever establishment they were patronizing. White folks calling to cops on African Americans for existing-while-black would have some unique alliterative moniker created for them individually, like Permit Patty for the woman who reported the kids for selling lemonade. At some point, these terms combined, and folks started calling white women who were quick to call the cops on black folks “Karens”. I find this development confusing, sexist (why we letting white men off the hook), and a really shitty thing to do to non-racist folks who happen to be named Karen; but I don’t know what to do about it other than avoid doing that myself.

An Impish Pepper
An Impish Pepper
15 days ago

We’re really doing the “Karen is a slur” thing now, huh?

Kaybee
Kaybee
15 days ago

@An Impish Pepper — I’m happy to stand down. But I’m not really sure what other lesson to take from expressions like, “complete cunt of a Karen.”

Naglfar
Naglfar
15 days ago

@Kaybee
I am sorry that your name is being used against women, all the women named Karen that I have known have been fine people and I do not mean to cause you or anyone else discomfort. I apologize for any harm I may have caused.

Nequam
Nequam
15 days ago

Personally I think those wretched, over-entitled women should be called “Verucas” but I don’t think I can make it happen any more than “fetch”.

Fabe
Fabe
15 days ago

@moregeekthan

I don’t think white males are being let of the hook I think it’s more that a term like ‘karen’ hasn’t been fully adapted yet. Some people use ‘ken’ or ‘kyle’ but no one name has been universally accepted.

Last edited 15 days ago by Fabe