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bad history men created civilization MGTOW misogyny

We kept women in check to feed you, MGTOW explains

The MGTOWs are trying their hand at history again. Only this time they aren’t telling stories about brave cavemen taking down huge mammoths to feed their lazy-ass cavewives. This time they’re suggesting that women’s rights are somehow incompatable with civilization itself.

In the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, a fellow called FlameForgeD2 confidently asserts that

It’s not a coincidence that every civilization before our time has kept women in check and that MGTOW was born in a civilization which doesn’t

Well, no, it’s not a surprise that some backwards men have responded to the increased rights of women by complaining on the internet like a bunch of babies.

But that’s not the point our intrepid historian wants to make: he’s saying that civilizations can’t grow and thrive without putting women down.

Does anyone honestly think that every society ever before just magically decided to “opress” (or so they think) 50+% of it’s population? Or were there reasons for restricting women to go to school and be stay at home housewives and mothers?

There were certainly reasons women were kept down; doing so benefited men, who just happened to have most of the power in society. Now, with some of the central pillers of the patriarchy being chipped away, MGTOWs are crying over the loss of this unearned male privilege.

Of course there were good reasons for such a huge decision, affecting milions. Men and women before covered for each other’s weaknesses. Women in their own way ensured the survival of our species, while men were productive and therefore built and brought to life the very civilization we have now. They made a good team and were productive by covering for each other’s pros and cons.

Apparently, in the mind of FlameForgeD2, the only thing women can do properly is to give birth to babies?

Just how a coleric boss/entrepreneur in a company works well together with a second-in-command melancholic, his right hand. They work together because their strenghts cover for each other’s weaknesses – the entrepreneur is a very diligent and hard working man, while his right hand is the analytical smart thinker.

This is a terrible example, in no way analogous to the alleged differences between men and women, and doesn’t prove much of anything. Got another one?

Oh, crap, he does.

Just how a captain and a first sergeant work well in the military. The captain is the brains of the operation, and the 1SG is the dangerous guy who enforces his decisions by keeping the soldiers below obedient, acting as an bridge between the officer and the soldier.

Weird that none of his examples involve anyone being stripped of their basic human rights.

Oh wait, he’s got still another example.

Just how a carry and support work well in popular MOBA’s. One is weak early but strong later, and the other vice versa – and by playing around each they work well – the support “supports” the carry while he’s weak, and the carry later carries him when the support falls off (his whole team anyway).

MOBA — I had to look it up — stands for “Multiplayer online battle arena.” That’s right. He’s basing his argument for suppressing the rights of women in part on the mechanics of a video game.

But he’s not done yet:

So, what happened since the old system was abolished? The deconstruction of the nuclear family, hypersexuality, degeneracy.

Well, that’s one way of looking at it. Another is to see the last 100 years or so as a period in which half of humanity got to share in the basic human rights the other half took for granted.

Oh, and there’s no “hypersexuality” going on now; people, especially young people, are having less sex than their counterparts were a quarter of a century ago.

The modern feminist narrative is today’s society’s weakness, not it’s strenght.

“Not it’s strenght,” you say?

It is making the western “democracies” more and more decadent and inefficient, and if they continue to honor the modern narrative, they will ultimately succumb to the disciplined nations of the east.

We may be going down the tubes at the moment, but it’s not because of too much democracy, that’s for sure.

The only valiable solution for this madness is for any woke people left to GTOW [Go Their Own Way]. Focus on self defined success and happiness, and don’t help or try to save a society which doesn’t want to help itself and save itself.

Funny how the people talking about “going their own way” always seem to be the people whom society will miss the least.

Somehow the comments inspired by FlameForgeD2’s post managed to be worse than his post.

According to aniani04,

Nature tends to correct itself, every single civilization that tried empowering women ended up going to shit, and we’re witnessing the death of a great civilization just because they didn’t keep their bitches in check… Fascinating!

“Letting women vote made the end inevitable,” declares PipBoyTinkerer.

And then there’s Intp-A1, who seems to think the only solution is like something out of The Handmaid’s Tale.

[S]ociety will ultimately collapse without a sustainable birth rate in the long run. Women must be forced to perform their biological duties, it’s as simple as that. That forcing mechanism will either be before the collapse by men asserting themselves or after a collapse when society is picking up the pieces and wondering what went wrong. Either way it will happen, because the current state of affairs is simply unsustainable.

Dream on, dude.

Remind me again why the MGTOW subreddit hasn’t been banned for hate speech already?

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Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

MGTOW was born in a civilization which doesn’t

I wish I lived in a civilization which didn’t “keep women in check.” Once again, the fictional world in which MRAs live seems more desirable than our own world.

Just how a coleric boss/entrepreneur in a company works well together with a second-in-command melancholic, his right hand.

Leave it to MGTOWs to still believe in the four humors. I wonder if they do bloodletting as a part of going their own way.

That’s right. He’s basing his argument for suppressing the rights of women in part on the mechanics of a video game.

Cue angry GamerGaters screaming that somehow this means feminists ruined video games.

The deconstruction of the nuclear family, hypersexuality, degeneracy.

Alt right bingo card players can now check off antisemitism. I think we all know who he’s referring to with “degeneracy.”

more and more decadent

Curious how the alt right can square the circle on their hatred of “decadent” things with their fetishization of the Ancient Greeks and Romana, who were known for their decadence and indulgence.

the current state of affairs is simply unsustainable.

This is one of those statements that is technically true for all the wrong reasons. The current world is unsustainable, but not because of feminism. It’s unsustainable because of capitalism and fascism, for which MGTOWs are cheerleaders.

epronovost
epronovost
2 months ago

Nothing better than pseudo-history to help miserable people feel even more miserable about themselves and participate in the weakenning of a civilisation. It’s ironic that MGTOW believe that stripping their country from one of its greatest economical asset (women’s work) and one of its most important stabilising force (women’s rights) would improve it. As if going back in time would make you more prosperous in a competitive environment which has moved beyond that past.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
2 months ago

Men and women before covered for each other’s weaknesses.

I mean, this would be lovely. It is lovely when we all cover for each other’s weaknesses and assist each other so that collectively we can be more safe, secure, and generally doing ok. It’s just that MGTOWs have absolutely no idea what genuinely having each other’s backs would look like. Hint dudes: it doesn’t look like treating women like garbage.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Bookworm in Hijab

It is lovely when we all cover for each other’s weaknesses and assist each other so that collectively we can be more safe, secure, and generally doing ok.

It certainly is, and I think one of the ways to achieve that is to dismantle the sex essentialism inherent to complementarianism. Toxic masculinity gets in the way because many men will never acknowledge their weaknesses, and are unwilling to help others. To create a system in which everyone is supported by everyone else, the key is individuality and allowing each individual to perform the role they do best without regard to their gender.

numerobis
numerobis
2 months ago

How the heck is going back to the mythical time when women couldn’t do anything compatible with covering for each others’ weaknesses?

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
2 months ago

@ Numerobois,

Exactly! That’s why I picked up on that phrase; it seemed so odd in the context of his overall…um, “argument” seems like the wrong word, given how incoherent it was.

@Naglfar,

I think you’re completely right about his gender-roles-essentialism nonsense. If we as a society are really going to cover for each others weaknesses (God only knows how this MGTOW meant that, but I mean it as “have each other’s backs, take care of each other, value and respect each other”) then surely we need to ditch the bullshit idea of men doing A and only A, while women do B and only B (and of course the mgtows think in binaries too 🙄).

I just…I want a world where we all look out for one another and help one another, and are not divided by bigotries. It’s sad how utopian and unlikely that seems. Gotta keep working for it though.

It’s so late…sorry if this is incoherent, mostly wanted to vociferously agree with Numerobois and Naglfar’s comments there…

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
2 months ago

Naglfar and Numerobois, I had a whole comment agreeing with you, and I posted it and it was there, and now its goooooone! Just to quickly say: I don’t think mgtows have the first clue about how to actually care for others. That’s why I picked up on that phrase, it didn’t seem to fit, but then I do think it was just word-vomit.

Their rigidly binary thinking is such a red flag clue. They don’t really want genuine empathy, genuine covering for/compassion for their fellow humans’ weaknesses. They want rigid structures of control. It’s sickening.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
2 months ago

And now my first comment has been returned.

Time for bed.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
2 months ago

The modern feminist narrative is today’s society’s weakness, not it’s strenght.

Looks like he could use a dictionary, or Grammarly. If he were a professional writer (perish the thought), I’d say that he could use a proofreader, possibly even a female proofreader!

Talonknife
Talonknife
2 months ago

Setting aside the fact that no major western power is currently in danger of imminent collapse, isn’t it just kind of the life cycle of civilizations to rise and fall over the course of history, mostly by either assimilation into a larger culture or fragmentation into smaller ones? The idea that any society could exist indefinitely is hubris to begin with.

Critical Dragon1177
Critical Dragon1177
2 months ago

[S]ociety will ultimately collapse without a sustainable birth rate in the long run. Women must be forced to perform their biological duties, it’s as simple as that. That forcing mechanism will either be before the collapse by men asserting themselves or after a collapse when society is picking up the pieces and wondering what went wrong. Either way it will happen, because the current state of affairs is simply unsustainable.

Yes Intp-A1, forcing women to have large numbers of children they cannot afford is so “sustainable,” as opposed to having a small number of children when they actually want to and not overpopulating the planet.

How much you want to bet that he is also a violent anti abortion fanatic who thinks that bombing clinics is justified?

Snowberry
Snowberry
2 months ago

@Critical Dragon1177:

Yes Intp-A1, forcing women to have large numbers of children they cannot afford is so “sustainable,” as opposed to having a small number of children when they actually want to and not overpopulating the planet.

They’re not referring to environmental or economic sustainability; rather, they’re referring to the preservation of the “white race”. They’re worried that if purely white breeding doesn’t go way up, white people will be a gradually dwindling (and eventually extinct) minority in a world of dark-skinned people and “muds” (mixed-race people, as “race-mixing” supposedly permanently erases one’s racial heritage, leaving one and all of one’s descendants essentially un-people). Were this actually true, it would not be a “sustainable future” for the “white race”.

How much you want to bet that he is also a violent anti abortion fanatic who thinks that bombing clinics is justified?

No bet. There are also manospherians who are fine and dandy with abortion, so long as it’s the father’s choice.

Last edited 2 months ago by Snowberry
Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
2 months ago

S]ociety will ultimately collapse without a sustainable birth rate in the long run. Women must be forced to perform their biological duties, it’s as simple as that. That forcing mechanism will either be before the collapse by men asserting themselves or after a collapse when society is picking up the pieces and wondering what went wrong. Either way it will happen, because the current state of affairs is simply unsustainable.

Well, if this is true then I humbly suggest the following: Society can eff off.

It isn’t true, though. While I share a negative outlook as to where we are going as a society, it has more to do with global warming, capitalism and the growing influence of fascist thought.

Lukas Xavier
Lukas Xavier
2 months ago

I just…I want a world where we all look out for one another and help one another, and are not divided by bigotries. It’s sad how utopian and unlikely that seems. Gotta keep working for it though.

I want to marry this comment.

A. Noyd
A. Noyd
2 months ago

Naglfar says:

Leave it to MGTOWs to still believe in the four humors. I wonder if they do bloodletting as a part of going their own way.

Right? Don’t they need a sanguine secretary and a phlegmatic head of HR to round things out and achieve true synergy?

Last edited 2 months ago by A. Noyd
North Sea Sparkly Dragon
North Sea Sparkly Dragon
2 months ago

I wonder if they realise they’re using the same arguments as fundi-evangelical types when it comes to bio-essentialism and complementarianism? There’s nothing new in their beliefs and they can’t articulate them well. Or humorously. I do wish they’d make an effort to try to be interesting, or at least amusing.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Talonknife

no major western power is currently in danger of imminent collapse

I somewhat question this assertion. In the US it seems like we’re getting closer to either collapse or absolute fascism every day.

@CrtiicalDragon
He probably only opposes abortion when it’s something the father doesn’t want, as that seems to be the usual manosphere position.

Pie
Pie
2 months ago

@A. Noyd

Right? Don’t they need a sanguine secretary and a phlegmatic head of HR to round things out and achieve true synergy?

I’m disappointed that “Intp-A1” didn’t point out how the four humors are old and busted. Maybe using classical humorism makes you seem more erudite than referencing Myers and Briggs who were after all… women.

Anyway, aren’t the “dark triad” the most important personality traits to measure in manospherology?

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ pie

I’m disappointed that “Intp-A1” didn’t point out how the four humors are old and busted

Wait, are you saying I don’t need these leeches?

Pie
Pie
2 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw

Wait, are you saying I don’t need these leeches?

Isn’t everyone into cupping these days?

Kereea
Kereea
2 months ago

Ironically Rome, which a lot of these dudes idolize, was MUCH more liberal for women than its democratic predecessor Athens was. Even after going imperial, Rome was still better for women than Athens, as was Sparta (another oft-idolized society).
Part of this was because if you’re gonna have a good chunk of your men off fighting and conquering (or training to be ready to do so for a lot of their time), that means the ladies are going to have to step up like they did in the US during the World Wars and Civil War. And therefore you’re going to have to allow them into the public sphere to a certain extent. Meanwhile in Athens a woman was to almost never leave the home unless it was to go to a woman’s only place like a beauty salon or such–even shopping was delegated to men most of the time. For a wealthy woman, leaving the house at all was unusual, since they were supposed to have services come to them, and a LOT of philosophers at the time used those societal rules as reasons to scorn them.
The thing is, generally when women have gained more rights in a western society, it’s because the society was in some form of upheaval that demanded more of them, commonly war (WW1 work by women was used as leverage for the 19th amendment). More nomadic/warrior societies often HAD more liberated women specifically because if the men had to be off fighting/patrolling/hunting, that left even more work to the ladies who could then leverage that into influence and power.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
2 months ago

Seems to me violent assholes going on random shooting sprees is far more destructive to the fabric of society than women working outside the house. How can students be expected to learn and innovate when they live in constant fear and have to keep interrupting the school day for active shooter drills? How are the arts supposed to thrive when concerts, festivals, and movies are open season for mass shooters? How can new ideas be heard when the second amendment is used to suppress the first?

Conversely, where do these men propose to get the time to build civilization during their busy schedule of anxiously patrolling Starbucks with AK-47s, lest a woman be found out in public having an independent thought?

For all their talk of being world-builders, the manosphere has never had a single original thought. It’s a stagnant ideology that’s old as dirt. All they ever talk about is white grievance. All they ever think about is how to force the world to acknowledge their (thoroughly unearned) superiority. They can’t even cook a simple meal without putting it on a misogyny float and having a parade for it. I doubt they’re going to be solving cold fusion anytime soon.

Pie
Pie
2 months ago

@Kereea

Ironically Rome, which a lot of these dudes idolize, was MUCH more liberal for women than its democratic predecessor Athens was. Even after going imperial, Rome was still better for women than Athens, as was Sparta (another oft-idolized society).

Because people don’t say “fuck sparta” enough: Fuck Sparta.

They were shit at war, they were shit at art, they were shit at diplomacy, and they were shit at equality.

Something like 5 in every 6 women in Sparta were Helots, which is to say they were literal slaves whose only purpose was to support the household of the sixth woman. Women of the Spartan equivalent of the aristocracy had it good, certainly better than their Athenian counterparts, but their lifestyle was built on brutal slavery with far more slaves treated far more badly than they were in Athens.

Kereea
Kereea
2 months ago

@Pie

Because people don’t say “fuck sparta” enough: Fuck Sparta.

Oh, true. I’m not super well versed in how the various Greek city-states handled their slaves other than they just about all had them and Sparta’s generally had it the worst. I was more talking about how the socieites treated women they saw as “their” women (given othering was very in vogue in the time period of the Greek Citystate Heyday) but you do absolutely have a point.

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
2 months ago

@Bookworm in hijab:

They don’t really want genuine empathy, genuine covering for/compassion for their fellow humans’ weaknesses. They want rigid structures of control.

They want a society where “there’s a place for everybody— and everybody knows their place.”

@Pie:

IIRC Sparta got into a vicious circle where their citizens spent all their time on military training, which meant they kept slaves to do all the everyday infrastructure tasks, which led to the number of slaves required being vastly greater than the number of citizens, which led to the citizens living in constant fear of a slave uprising and deciding they needed to step up their military training, rinse and repeat.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
2 months ago

OT – content warning: sick kitties

Our three cats went to the vet today. They’re getting up there in age (15 and 14), and they’re all sliding into renal failure. The oldest also has just been diagnosed with hyperthyroidism.

As our now-retired vet used to say, “You get so dad-gummed attached to them.”

Hambeast
Hambeast
2 months ago

No, dude. So. Much. NO. A few thoughts:

For one thing, your right hand is that thing at the end of your right arm. I’ve been uncomfortable with that metaphor since I was a wee child in Sunday School. Always hated Sunday School, too; no amount of arts & crafts or punch and cookies ever made me like it. Same for VBS, while I’m at it.

Sorry! Got a little off-track, there.

Next thing, I spent eight years in the military and had a fair few first sergeants. None of them were ‘enforcer’ types. I suppose it’s possible for what you describe to exist, but it’s certainly not the norm. The real military is not actually like a movie or video game.

Last thing, there’s a whole lot more NOPE in that there screed; too much for me to want to take on, but let me say this: Go your own way, already, just SHOO! Maybe you and some others of your ilk can scare (heh) up enough cash to buy that Libertarian paradise lost down in Chile. I’m sure it’ll work out every bit as well.

Sorry to the Chileans, they don’t really deserve any more stupid Americans trying to build fashy Randian utopias.

Vicky P – I hope your kitties do well on a kidney diet, if that’s what’s prescribed. We lost our beloved Catbeast to CKD.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
2 months ago

Victorious Parasol, I’m so sorry to hear that. Hugs if you want them. 😢

Hambeast
Hambeast
2 months ago

Huh. Now there’s no edit function. I was going to add that my comment has appeared at the top of the thread and perhaps that’s why the comments seem to temporarily disappear; because they’re relocating to the bottom of the thread?

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Victorious Parasol
Sorry to hear about your cats.

@Hambeast
The edit button should be found if you see a little gear icon and click it, there will be a menu with an edit option.

Maybe you and some others of your ilk can scare (heh) up enough cash to buy that Libertarian paradise lost down in Chile. I’m sure it’ll work out every bit as well.

Sorry to the Chileans, they don’t really deserve any more stupid Americans trying to build fashy Randian utopias.

They could always take up seasteading.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
2 months ago

@VP

Sorry to hear about your friends. It’s always hard, watching them get old.

Pie
Pie
2 months ago

@Moon Custafer

IIRC Sparta got into a vicious circle where their citizens spent all their time on military training, which meant they kept slaves to do all the everyday infrastructure tasks

The elites were forbidden from doing productive work; that was for the slaves who worked on the estates. People who had to work for a living were not truly free, and were treated with contempt. That was baked into their society from the get-go… it wasn’t the cause of their decline, though it didn’t help. It meant that as a society they were relatively poor compared to their neighbours, because that’s what happens when you don’t value productive labor. This is bad news when your enemies can afford mercenaries and siege engineers and the like, and you can’t.

Their main problem was basically greed. Land was a critical resource to the elite, as it was the sole source of their wealth. If they fell below a certain threshold of wealth, they and their descendants would be forever barred from the elite class. Unfortunately, they set up a system that concentrated the wealth and power in the hands of fewer and fewer, making it impractical to support a large elite class and the richest Spartans were unprepared to give up their own wealth to allow others into their exclusive club.

Then they got a much-deserved kicking from their neighbours, and then the Macedonians, and then the Romans, and ended up as a tourist attraction and modern-day gun-fondler fetish.

Last edited 2 months ago by Pie
Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
2 months ago

Thanks, everyone. They’re all home from the vet now, and being their usual post-visit cranky selves.

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
2 months ago

Land was a critical resource to the elite, as it was the sole source of their wealth. If they fell below a certain threshold of wealth, they and their descendants would be forever barred from the elite class.

Wow, that’s even stupider than I’d heard. Sparta is like somebody had a “design the most hobbled-by-snobbery society” contest.

Viscaria
Viscaria
2 months ago

@VP, I am sorry to hear about your cats. I hope they get over their post-vet grumps quickly and settle back in at home.

We’re going through something similar with our elderly cat. I know he has had a good, long, happy life, but I will miss him when he has to leave us. I’m happy for every day we have left to share with this furry little demon.

Anonymous
Anonymous
2 months ago

>Remind me again why the MGTOW subreddit hasn’t been banned for hate speech already?

I’m going out on a limb and assuming it’s because Reddit wants their money. It’s always about the money.

(How do you use quotes on this?)

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Anonymous

(How do you use quotes on this?)

There’s a button. If you’re on mobile it says “B-QUOTE” and if you’re on a computer it looks like a quotation mark. Hit it before and after your quote.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 months ago

[S]ociety will ultimately collapse without a sustainable birth rate in the long run

In 1920, when women were granted the vote in the US, the world population was around 2 billion. Now it’s around 7.8 billion. It doesn’t seem like women having rights has caused any birthrate problems to me.
(But I assume that these chucklefucks are the kind to consider the only white birthrate to be relevant, aren’t they? Have some racism to go along with their misogyny.)

Last edited 2 months ago by Catalpa
Kimstu
Kimstu
2 months ago

@Catalpa:

In 1920, when women were granted the vote in the US, the world population was around 2 billion. Now it’s around 7.8 billion. It doesn’t seem like women having rights has caused any birthrate problems to me.

In fact, the birthrate in most countries dropped dramatically over the second half (and mostly over the fourth quarter) of the 20th century, often after experiencing a significant rise, or a drop followed by a rise, over the first half.

The same general demographic pattern is seen regardless of whether the country in question enacted women’s suffrage before 1900 (such as New Zealand), or in the early 20th century (such as the UK and US), or in the late 20th century (such as Kuwait), or even in the 21st century (such as Oman).

Birthrates plummeted for women in almost all societies after about 1960, whether they had the vote or not. And as you note, this didn’t stop the overall world population from continuing to grow, either.

Fraser
2 months ago

Oooh, those sinister disciplined civilizations of the East! Did this dude get his concept of geopolitics from the start of the last century?

Hambeast
Hambeast
2 months ago

Naglfar – Thanks for the tip! And I like the sea steading idea, too.

I’m still not seeing a gear anywhere, but maybe I have to post first?

Edited to add: Yep! There she is!! Thanks again!

Last edited 2 months ago by Hambeast
occasional reader
occasional reader
2 months ago

the entrepreneur is a very diligent and hard working man, while his right hand is the analytical smart thinker.

If the poster thinks of himself as the entrepreneur, he is welcome to have fun with his right hand. There is nothing wrong with self-love. And meanwhile, he would not be able to post shit on the Internet.
Now, if your right hand is smarter than you, it may be bad new for you (insert picture of Migi from the manga Parasite here).

Frederic Christie
2 months ago

This is a terrible example, in no way analogous to the alleged differences between men and women, and doesn’t prove much of anything. Got another one?

No, Dave, it does prove something. That even his own analogies are between equal partners. If he was being honest to himself and to his audience, he’d talk about the synergy between a choleric slave and a melancholic master, and then have to admit that the choleric slave would get beaten.