Women lure men into marriage with baked goods, MGTOW Redditors warn

THANK you, Moogue.

And to some other commentators here: It isn’t that any real-life person necessarily “tells” any girl that the average woman is entitled to be supported by her husband (or receive alimony as opposed to child support, for that matter); it’s simply that in a Disney-saturated culture, it’s often a little difficult to find DIFFERENT messages than that. Even “Frozen” doesn’t really go beyond the admittedly refreshing message of “you can’t marry someone you just met.”

(Not even the message “better to be alone than to wish you were.”)

If you put all past and present Disney movies – and similar movies – into a blender, the average message to girls would probably be: “You can be independent and physically active if you like, but you shouldn’t REALLY have to work hard to become rich – that’s your parents’ job or your husband’s job or both!” (Or, some version of winning the lottery, if the character is a poor girl who never marries.)

As syndicated columnist Ellen Goodman once wrote (regarding media messages aimed at children): “It isn’t that parents can’t say no. It’s that there’s so much more to say no to.”

To the point, she said, where earning a living as a parent feels like something you’re only allowed to do in your spare time from your OTHER work.

Btw, while Americans often envy people who inherit their money, they typically have contempt for them as well. The two feelings aren’t mutually exclusive. I would bet that before 2016 or so, far more people had contempt for Trump – if they thought about him at all.

And right now, at least, this iPad won’t let me copy anything written above, so…

Lainy, I made it clear enough that I didn’t think anyone was being forced to become a nanny. Just that some low-level jobs are inherently more fun or fascinating than others, as a rule, in the minds of children and teens. Or, some such jobs make one feel more proud than other jobs.

Policy of Madness, I HAVE heard of a fictional teen who dreamed of becoming a waitress – because her options were so limited. (Significantly, she knew, for one thing, that no one was likely to marry her, and she also knew she’d have trouble graduating high school.) Girls who have at least a reasonable chance of going to college don’t typically fantasize about having low-paying jobs that a high-school dropout could do.

And Some Chick in Texas, I made it clear I WASN’T talking about stay-at-home dads. While for some bizarre reason, modern parents often tolerate adult basement kids who refuse even to look for jobs, we simply don’t hear about able-bodied men being completely supported by spouses UNLESS they’re raising kids. Why? Because those men would be too embarrassed to pursue that lifestyle. (It used to be somewhat common for a wife to be supported if the couple was infertile and they didn’t want to adopt, but nowadays, society would be telling the wife to get some marketable skills, at least.)

Just to be geeky, according to the OED, housewife may once have been gender neutral.

There is some evidence that in Middle English the word housewife in the general sense ‘housekeeper’ could be applied to both men and women.

A 1416 description of the duties of the housekeeper at a poorhouse, refers to the “husewyfe, man or woman.”

That may only have been of interest to Dali and she probably already knew .

While for some bizarre reason, modern parents often tolerate adult basement kids who refuse even to look for jobs,

Not commenting on the rest, as I’ve not been paying overmuch attention to the discussion, but this bit: You’re irritating me a touch, for a couple reasons.

You tried to get a job lately? As in the last 15 years or so? Our second youngest wound up living with us for nigh on 6 years after uni before she managed to get a decent job and was able to get out on her own. It weren’t pleasant for her – especially since her brother and sisters had their own gaffs and lives. (Or pleasant for us, really. There’s only one bathroom … made her having some bloke around for the night awkward.)

And as for it being a blip of modern parents? It’s been going on for decades. I were hearing the same damned complaint in the 60’s and early 70’s. Hell of a lot more justification for it then, too.

So – if you’re in my age group, knock that shit off. World’s changed, like it always does.
If you’re younger, definitely knock that shit off. Judgemental old fool don’t suit you.

Edit to add:

@Alan

Always thought it was a gender neutral name. My housewife certainly don’t have an obvious gender – it just sits in my kit holding the needles and thread and buttons, giving no offense to incels.

@ threp

The sewing kit version of the word seems to have an interesting history too; although no-one seems to know how it originated. But it leads into all that thing of how ‘hussy’ originally just meant mistress of a household, then thrifty woman, then the pejorative meaning.

There’s also some legal stuff about housewife, or hýfreyja in Norse, in relation to Vikings. It was a title signifying a particular status and privileges arising from that; like estate management and being in charge of the family and business finances.

IIRC the word “wife” itself is neutral in Old English, but I don’t remember exactly. Old English had grammatical gender of nouns that modern English lacks, with 3 genders: masculine, feminine, and neutral, much like modern German, Icelandic, or Old Norse.

@Lenona, Moogue

I suppose that so long as alimony exists, that is evidence that feminists are being somewhat supportive of housewives.

In addition to what Moogue said, alimony is usually given after divorce, while the idea of being a housewife implies marriage (the word “wife”), so those seem like disconnected ideas.

@ threp

First known written example of that use from 1735 according to the OED.

“Upon turning the Pocket out, he found only a Thread Paper, a Housewife, and a Crown piece.”

I’m pretty certain chatelaines were the inspiration for army webbing harnesses!

@Moogue

Personally I don’t think that Lenona is here is bad faith, but at the same time they seem to be really well read and hung up on 2nd wave feminism in a way that I’ve personally experienced MRAs to be.

I’m noticing the same re: 2nd wave stuff, especially during that other thread they were digging hard into sex negativity and sex essentialism. I don’t think they’re an MRA, but I do think they have some conservative ideas.

You tried to get a job lately? As in the last 15 years or so?

I don’t understand why I have to spell everything out, but there’s obviously a big difference between young adults who live with their parents and who DO look for work every day – and young adults who refuse even to TRY. If you look for 100 jobs a week, you clearly have a better chance than someone who only looks for 1 job per week. Plus, did I really need to point out that someone who refuses to look for paid work is not at all likely to be working like a dog around the house just to make the parents happy?

And as for it being a blip of modern parents? It’s been going on for decades. I were hearing the same damned complaint in the 60’s and early 70’s. Hell of a lot more justification for it then, too.

I don’t quite follow – do you mean “complaint” as in parents complaining about their own shiftless adult children, or society complaining about parents who are too cowardly to throw kids out when there ARE jobs to be had?

Incidentally, I don’t know what the pattern over the decades has been in Italy, but in 2002, a judge ordered a father to keep supporting his 30ish son, who’d been to law school IIRC, until the son found a job he liked. However, according to this recent article, the tide is turning – but the implication is that young Italians who live at home are getting breakfast in bed – which sounds very much like a piece I saw on “60 Minutes,” years ago.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/18/europe/italy-adult-child-finance-intl-scli/index.html

If the unemployment rate is as awful as the article says, coddling one’s kids like that won’t exactly motivate them either. (But it’s well known that the unemployment rate and the high cost of living in Italy are two big reasons that a culture that used to embrace big families now has maybe THE lowest birth rate in Europe.)

And Moogue, I just tried to copy one of your paragraphs and couldn’t. I don’t believe there are many self-described feminists who openly support alimony, let alone push for it. But otherwise, your reading of what I said is almost correct. That is, it’s one thing for feminists to scold women in their 20s for wanting to become housewives/mothers and nothing else, but it would look heartless to ignore the plight of abandoned, unskilled 40ish housewives – and make feminism even less popular than it already is with many young conservatives or young poor women. So, most feminists refuse to talk about alimony, let alone move to abolish it. I call that a type of sympathy, at least.

If ALL heterosexual women built up their marketable skills as best they could and thought well in advance about what they would do if their perfect husbands got hit by cars and paralyzed, then chances are more and more young women would start saying “we don’t want our husbands, brothers and sons to be hampered by alimony payments to THEIR exes – it’s time for alimony to go.” But, we’ll have to wait and see.

Btw, feel free to call me “she,” everyone. It makes people’s grammar easier to follow. (The stupid auto-correct already causes too many problems.)

I used to tangle with a few MRAs (at now-defunct forums) just to make them mad. For example, I pointed out to Robert O’Hara (aka “rohara”) that we can’t have Choice for Men because
-ANY man could claim his girlfriend lied about being on the Pill when she didn’t lie
-contraceptives fail
-if a man doesn’t want a pregnancy, it’s HIS job to make sure two contraceptives are used every time
-if unwed fathers were allowed to get off the hook, married fathers eventually could do that too
-fathers of young women are not eager to support their grandchildren and so would not support such a bill
-no politician, left or right, with half a brain would support or even allow a law that would cause the abortion rate to skyrocket

He wasn’t happy – and kept dodging my points.

I got tired of him and others, since they’re so repetitive. It was nice to see that Bernard Chapin seems to have changed his mind and now CARES about new male birth control methods, at least. But we might as well sit back and wait for RISUG or Vasalgel to arrive. I can’t wait for the crushed looks on MRAs’ faces once they realize that the women who insist on condom use will keep doing so – and that single men who don’t use condoms typically don’t WANT to use male birth control and don’t care how many babies they have. Plus, of course, there are all the unsympathetic family judges who will start saying “if you didn’t want a kid, why didn’t you do something in advance?” (Which is, no doubt, why many MRAs refuse to talk about male bc at all. Like Marc Rudov, last I remember.)

Dalillama, I’m not about to go wading through that long thread, let alone bother to figure out how you twisted my words. (Posting here is way too time-consuming as it is.)

All I can say is, if you could read a certain paean I wrote to a late celebrity, a piece that got praise from not only those close to him but from the late political comedian Barry Crimmins (I knew both of them personally), you would never call me homophobic. However, I’m not about to point it out, since it’s under my real name.

All I can say is, if you could read a certain paean I wrote to a late celebrity, a piece that got praise from not only those close to him but from the late political comedian Barry Crimmins (I knew both of them personally), you would never call me homophobic.

oh my god you’re insufferable.

One human interest story about a family in Italy doesn’t actually prove that millennials are more inclined to laziness and don’t look for jobs.

@Lenona

I think you know very well

You keep moving the goalposts and making assumptions of your audience. Assuming you’re arguing in good faith, we still can’t read your mind, so no, we don’t know exactly what you’re thinking.