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men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW misogyny reddit

Women lure men into marriage with baked goods, MGTOW Redditors warn

She’s my cherry pie

By David Futrelle

Fellas! Watch out! Women will do anything to trap men into marrying them — including baking!

I learned this today in the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit.

Bronzeraptor 2 points 7 hours ago 
True story:

While dating, my wife used to be into baking and I would get a ton of baked goods to eat. Once rings went on her finger, suddenly she wasn't interested in baking anymore. "It's too much work.." "We don't have the space..", etc. The wave of excuses continued

It's just a trap my bro


[–]jws755[S] 1 point 5 hours ago 
My ex did the same prior to the wedding. The baked goods and blowjobs both ended about a year after the honeymoon.

You’re just sitting there enjoying an endless stream of pies and cupcakes and freshly baked bread and the next thing you know you’re stuck in a loveless marriage without even a dinner roll to your name.

THAT’S HOW THEY GET YOU.

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Full Metal Ox
2 months ago

@Moon Custafer:

I still have The I Hate To Cook Book, along with its followup The I Hate To Housekeep Book; this recipe from the latter was a favorite at our house:

WIENERINOS (1):

You’ll need a slice of French bread or plain bread per customer.
Toast the slices on one side only. On the other side, spread, in this order:

plain yellow hot-dog mustard
chopped green onions
a good big dollop of canned beans
(any kind—tomato sauce-style or New England; they can be hot from the double boiler if you like, but it’s not necessary)
a good chunk of cheese
(Cheddar, Swiss, or what-have-you)
2 or 3 strips of uncooked bacon (2)

Slide them under the broiler, four of five inches front the heating element or flame, until the bacon is done.

(The chapter title is, “Dinner Will Be Ready As Soon As I Decide What We’re Having.”)

(1) I’ve taken the liberty of renaming it because a Google search implies that the original name, “Beanerinos”, has since become an anti-Latinx slur–and for another reason below:

(2) My family substituted hot dogs sliced into medallions for the bacon.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
2 months ago

@Lainy

I’m sorry to hear that you were triggered. How’re you doing now?

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
2 months ago

@Full Metal Ox:

Bracken also did a pretty good etiquette guide called I Try to Behave Myself.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
2 months ago

Dalillama:

To be fair, our lad had a whole lot of pent-up anger about the whole ‘being enslaved’ part, which rather overwhelms gender relationships in this context. Also, IIRC she and her husband had been involved in murdering his whole family, so there’s that too. The moral of that story is “don’t be a genocidal slaver”, not “dudes overreact to minor provocations”.

There’s a bit of both. Kullervo was initially enslaved and raised by his uncle Untamo – the narrative is highly inconsistent on what exactly happened to his parents and how and when he lost contact with them. There’s certainly pent-up anger over the loss and exploitation, though it looks rather like simple social dysfunction from a rough childhood. Kullervo was already a grown up, difficult to manage slave when he was sold (for a comically low price) to smith Ilmarinen and his mistress.

The connection to Ilmarinen and his trophy wife was Lönnrot’s own addition when he composed the Kalevala – I think in original folklore narrative there was just a generic, unnamed evil farm wife (or possibly Untamo’s wife, or Untamo himself cast as the bullying boss). IIRC, the dread of “women’s laughter” also comes up in other storylines.

Lenona
Lenona
2 months ago

Naglfar: OK, how does one insert block quotes? I’m using a borrowed iPad, so there may be limitations here on what I can do – there certainly are in other forums. (I also can’t figure out how to include italics – other than in my e-mails.)

And yes, of course plenty of women never wanted to be housewives. Plus the fact that women who don’t really want children shouldn’t have them, so a childfree (not childless) woman really shouldn’t expect a spouse to support her as a housewife in that case. How many modern breadwinners WANT to support a CF homemaker/spouse?

But there’s a big difference between society’s saying “girls shouldn’t be pushed into a lifestyle they don’t want” and society’s putting down unpaid, menial work as a choice that needs to be discouraged for young women.

The real problem, IMO, was that too many women in their 20s, then and now, thought they were somehow entitled to stop working for pay and insist that Prince Charmings appear out of nowhere. As if they could just wish away the possibility of death, divorce, mass layoffs, terrible accidents, or chronic diseases. (Not to mention that housewives with small children often get little sleep, so that scenario won’t exactly feel like a fairy tale when it happens.)

Whereas any woman who wanted to be a nurse or a teacher already KNEW she’d never get rich that way and that it would be hard work. So while there was feminist criticism of “pink-collar” jobs, it wasn’t nearly as intense. (Plus, I have never heard any girl, in real life or even fiction, say “I want to be a professional housecleaner when I grow up!” A nanny or something similar, maybe, but one could say there’s far more fun in being a nanny.)

Finally, society would have quite a bit of contempt for any young man who complained that all he wanted to do as an adult was keep house but not take care of children – and never get a paying job. So what’s the difference? In a world where more and more men with good jobs are realizing that they have a right to say no to fatherhood if they wish, that means fewer women have ANY hope of becoming full-time housewives, and even if they do, it will mean having no real control over their own lives.

(Unlike, say, pursuing a lucrative Hollywood career. Most people fail at that when they try, but those who get lucky can save their money if they’re smart – and run their own lives.)

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Lenona

OK, how does one insert block quotes? I’m using a borrowed iPad, so there may be limitations here on what I can do – there certainly are in other forums.

Do you see a button that says “quote” above the comment box? Press that button, paste your quote, then press it again. Or paste your quote, select it, and press the “quote” button.
If the button isn’t visible, type <blockquote> before your quote and </blockquote> after it.

society would have quite a bit of contempt for any young man who complained that all he wanted to do as an adult was keep house but not take care of children – and never get a paying job.

I’m not sure there would be contempt for him. Plenty of men don’t get jobs and live off of inherited money if they’re very wealthy.

But there’s a big difference between society’s saying “girls shouldn’t be pushed into a lifestyle they don’t want” and society’s putting down unpaid, menial work as a choice that needs to be discouraged for young women.

The real problem, IMO, was that too many women in their 20s, then and now, thought they were somehow entitled to stop working for pay and insist that Prince Charmings appear out of nowhere.

I don’t think feminists are pushing girls to think that they shouldn’t be housewives if they want to. Feminism is about women having rights, not telling women what to do. All the feminists I know are fine with women being homemakers (or men, for that matter), so long as it’s a choice.

And the latter idea is definitely not a feminist idea.

Lainy
Lainy
2 months ago

@Victorious

I vomited, but I’m better now.

@Lenona

Yeah, and when I was a little girl i wanted to be a vampire. But then i grew up and figured out that wasn’t possible so now i teach ballet classes and am wateriest. Part of going into adulthood is having realistic expectation for your life. A lot of kids might want to be president when their little, but guess what, only one president. So yeah, some people might want to be a fucking nanny even though you seem to think it’s something their forced into. My good friend knew from the time she was 9 that she wanted to be a special edds teacher because of how poor special edd kids are treated. because guess what. Some people love kids, some people love being around kids but have no desire to have their own. Some people want to spend their lives helping children. So nanny, daycare worker, grade school teachers, and so on. Hell i bought my car with the money i made off baby sitting in highschool because I loved it so much and the kids loved me.

Lainy
Lainy
2 months ago

Also your erasing disabled couples pretty hard that might have to “support” their partner.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
2 months ago

The real problem, IMO, was that too many women in their 20s, then and now, thought they were somehow entitled to stop working for pay and insist that Prince Charmings appear out of nowhere.

I’m Gen X and AFAB, and I certainly never got that message. Who is pushing it onto millennials? I suspect “nobody” and this is a problem that doesn’t exist. I’ve always known that I need to work for a living, and for millennials the situation is dire if all members of a household are not working. Millennials, married and partnered and otherwise, are putting off having children because they literally can’t afford them. Who is telling all these air-headed young ladies that they can expect to be a childfree homemaker and that’s a real thing that is likely to happen to them?

This is not a thing in my world, and I suspect it’s not a thing in anybody’s world, and you’re just inventing a problem that isn’t there.

Lainy
Lainy
2 months ago

@policy of maddness

This is not a thing in my world, and I suspect it’s not a thing in anybody’s world, and you’re just inventing a problem that isn’t there.

Something they are apparently really good at.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
2 months ago

(Plus, I have never heard any girl, in real life or even fiction, say “I want to be a professional housecleaner when I grow up!” A nanny or something similar, maybe, but one could say there’s far more fun in being a nanny.)

Also, there are absolutely children for whom being a house cleaner is the most lucrative job they can realistically see themselves getting. If you’ve never had the “pleasure” of hearing a child lowball their life trajectory, you’re incredibly privileged.

Moogue
Moogue
2 months ago

Since many people that are professional housecleaners own their own businesss, I personally don’t see what is wrong with girls wanting to be housecleaners or caretakers when they grow up. Some people REALLY like to clean. I don’t, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not a valuable skill for those that do, or that housecleaners won’t be successful in life.

The same generalization can’t really be said about housewives though. It’s not that it’s a bad thing to do, just that it’s really risky, and makes women vulnerable to abusive partners. Again, not automatically bad, just something to go onto with eyes wide open.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
2 months ago

OT

‘She was the aggressor’: Former Liberty student alleges sexual encounter with Becki Falwell

A former student at the evangelical university opens up about a 2008 incident with the wife of the school’s president.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/27/becki-falwell-affair-liberty-university-student-band-jerry-402559

And it actually sounds more like oral rape than a “sexual encounter.”

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
2 months ago

News for yesterday make me very anxious. Between the lionization of that asshole who crossed state line to kill two protesters, and a videogame opening with far right conspiracy footage, things look a lot grimer suddenly 😡

happy cat
happy cat
2 months ago

Wait… I’m asexual, happily single, not interested in getting married and sometimes I bake tiny cakes and I bring them to work so everyone can enjoy them at coffee time.

Do my male coworkers really believe I want to lure them into marriage?!!

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
2 months ago

The real problem, IMO, was that too many women in their 20s, then and now, thought they were somehow entitled to stop working for pay and insist that Prince Charmings appear out of nowhere.

I’m sorry, when was this supposedly happening, and amongst whom?
@Lenona, in what social class is it/has it ever been the case that young women (are told to) expect not to work (over and above being expected/obliged to do all or nearly all the domestic work)? In paractice, often 24/7 to enable the wage-earner to make a profit for the actual owner of assets, of course.

Sure there are rich rentiers who don’t work – a tiny fraction of the population, who own a huge fraction of the wealth – but those wealth-owners are overwhelmingly men.

Your comment sounds like some sort of odd echo of the bonbons fantasy, and we know how completely divorced from reality that is.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

Multiple people have already addressed directly the issue with Lenona’s comments, so I won’t go there. However, this does remind me of the last incident with this particular commenter, where they invented some new issue with teens and one night stands, or the issue of stumbling onto railway tracks while drunk. This seems to be a bit of a modus operandi: make up an issue that doesn’t exist except in the imaginations of conservatives, ramble about how feminists need to solve it, then leave without actually addressing people’s comments.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
2 months ago

@Ohlmann

Wait, which video game? 😮

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
2 months ago

One of my younger sisters is a professional housecleaner. She used to be a kindergarten teacher. She doesn’t miss classroom teaching (which I suspect is her polite way of saying she doesn’t miss certain kinds of parents), and her side hustle is teaching yoga to kids at our other sister’s yoga studio. I have no idea how much she makes, but she’s happy and she supports herself and her two daughters, keeping them safe from their father/her ex-husband.

We’re an interesting bag of daughters. Two of us are healthcare professionals (myself and Dr. Baby Sister Vet) and the other two own their own businesses (housecleaning and yoga).

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
2 months ago

Ah, found the video game in question. Bloody hell.

https://www.kotaku.co.uk/2020/08/28/call-of-duty-trailer-recklessly-promotes-far-right-conspiracy-theory

This is actually quite horrifying.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Cyborgette
Sadly I can’t say I’m surprised. I’ve never played Call of Duty, but from what I know it’s always been full of conservative military fetishization. Although the Kotaku article says it’s reckless, I am pretty sure this wasn’t an accident or mistake. It’s a calculated move to pander to a right wing conspiracy theorist base.

Some Chick in Texas
Some Chick in Texas
2 months ago

Where are these masses of young women who don’t think they have to work or even don’t want to work? There will always be the one person here or there. But one person here or there proves nothing. As for society mocking men who want to be homemakers, I know a couple of stay at home dads, not a lot but they do exist. And even in Texas, people don’t think much of it at all. Like “Oh ok” and everyone moves on about their lives.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Some Chick in Texas

Where are these masses of young women who don’t think they have to work or even don’t want to work?

Presumably the same place where teens can never have one night stands and the main risk of drinking is railroads. And where teens listen to those lines of argument.

Moogue
Moogue
2 months ago

Oh for fucks sakes, this idea that only rich women “drop out” of the workforce in the US is a fantasy that needs to go die in some dumpsterfire. Stay at home moms today are more likely to be brown, more likely to be disabled, and unfortunately much more likely to be poor. Statistics show that it’s the working women that are more likely to be well off, white and privileged.

Who else do you think could afford a $600 a week childcare bill?

@opposablethumbs

@Lenona, in what social class is it/has it ever been the case that young women (are told to) expect not to work (over and above being expected/obliged to do all or nearly all the domestic work

I would say at least since the later part of the industrial revolution until second wave feminism took hold. Childcare has always been an issue for working mothers, but even besides that, a housewife was some American Dream status symbol that all groups should strive for. @barf@

Unless our men needed us for some war effort. Then we suddenly we should work outside the home, but only until all the men come home, that is.

What’s that saying; it’s called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it?

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
2 months ago

Oh great. Another bloody Call of Dude-T game.

Still, at least it’s two Christmas presents sorted.

Schnookums Von Fancypants, Assailed by Gynocratic Powers
Schnookums Von Fancypants, Assailed by Gynocratic Powers
2 months ago

Activision also edited the video for the new CoD game because it had footage of the 1989 Tienanmen Square protests, and that made China sad so they took it out. So I guess the line “Know your History” from the trailer really meant “know your history unless it has a chance to cost us some sweet sweet cash from China”. What a profile in fucking courage they are.

Lenona
Lenona
2 months ago

THANK you, Moogue.

And to some other commentators here: It isn’t that any real-life person necessarily “tells” any girl that the average woman is entitled to be supported by her husband (or receive alimony as opposed to child support, for that matter); it’s simply that in a Disney-saturated culture, it’s often a little difficult to find DIFFERENT messages than that. Even “Frozen” doesn’t really go beyond the admittedly refreshing message of “you can’t marry someone you just met.”

(Not even the message “better to be alone than to wish you were.”)

If you put all past and present Disney movies – and similar movies – into a blender, the average message to girls would probably be: “You can be independent and physically active if you like, but you shouldn’t REALLY have to work hard to become rich – that’s your parents’ job or your husband’s job or both!” (Or, some version of winning the lottery, if the character is a poor girl who never marries.)

As syndicated columnist Ellen Goodman once wrote (regarding media messages aimed at children): “It isn’t that parents can’t say no. It’s that there’s so much more to say no to.”

To the point, she said, where earning a living as a parent feels like something you’re only allowed to do in your spare time from your OTHER work.

Btw, while Americans often envy people who inherit their money, they typically have contempt for them as well. The two feelings aren’t mutually exclusive. I would bet that before 2016 or so, far more people had contempt for Trump – if they thought about him at all.

And right now, at least, this iPad won’t let me copy anything written above, so…

Lainy, I made it clear enough that I didn’t think anyone was being forced to become a nanny. Just that some low-level jobs are inherently more fun or fascinating than others, as a rule, in the minds of children and teens. Or, some such jobs make one feel more proud than other jobs.

Policy of Madness, I HAVE heard of a fictional teen who dreamed of becoming a waitress – because her options were so limited. (Significantly, she knew, for one thing, that no one was likely to marry her, and she also knew she’d have trouble graduating high school.) Girls who have at least a reasonable chance of going to college don’t typically fantasize about having low-paying jobs that a high-school dropout could do.

And Some Chick in Texas, I made it clear I WASN’T talking about stay-at-home dads. While for some bizarre reason, modern parents often tolerate adult basement kids who refuse even to look for jobs, we simply don’t hear about able-bodied men being completely supported by spouses UNLESS they’re raising kids. Why? Because those men would be too embarrassed to pursue that lifestyle. (It used to be somewhat common for a wife to be supported if the couple was infertile and they didn’t want to adopt, but nowadays, society would be telling the wife to get some marketable skills, at least.)

Lenona
Lenona
2 months ago

Oh, and Naglfar, I forgot to say that the abandoned housewife I quoted was responding to a complaint sent to Ms. Magazine. The complainer had said that the magazine (and feminists in general) were only giving minimal support to housewives and that that should change. The housewife disagreed and responded:

“Six months ago I too was a self-described ‘happy homemaker.’ I baked bread, grew roses, played with my toddler. Then I woke one morning and found my husband (and our car, our stereo, our checkbook, etc.) gone. I was COMPLETELY surprised; I had assumed he was as happy as I was!

“I had to immediately find a job (which pays a third what his does); arrange for day care: try to scrape together enough money for food, mortgage, and utilities.

“Housewife is NOT a valid career option because you have no control over your own life. If you lose your husband you can’t go down to the employment agency and apply for another one!”

I suppose that so long as alimony exists, that is evidence that feminists are being somewhat supportive of housewives. But I don’t hear any self-described feminists disagreeing with that abandoned housewife, either. After all, if it turns out no one wants to marry you and you don’t really want to work for minimum wage, you have to start planning once you begin high school, pretty much. (That was true even in the 19th century – it wasn’t just ANYONE who could become a teacher.)

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

Just to be geeky, according to the OED, housewife may once have been gender neutral.

There is some evidence that in Middle English the word housewife in the general sense ‘housekeeper’ could be applied to both men and women.

A 1416 description of the duties of the housekeeper at a poorhouse, refers to the “husewyfe, man or woman.”

That may only have been of interest to Dali and she probably already knew .

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw
I didn’t know that. Thank you.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
2 months ago

While for some bizarre reason, modern parents often tolerate adult basement kids who refuse even to look for jobs,

Not commenting on the rest, as I’ve not been paying overmuch attention to the discussion, but this bit: You’re irritating me a touch, for a couple reasons.

You tried to get a job lately? As in the last 15 years or so? Our second youngest wound up living with us for nigh on 6 years after uni before she managed to get a decent job and was able to get out on her own. It weren’t pleasant for her – especially since her brother and sisters had their own gaffs and lives. (Or pleasant for us, really. There’s only one bathroom … made her having some bloke around for the night awkward.)

And as for it being a blip of modern parents? It’s been going on for decades. I were hearing the same damned complaint in the 60’s and early 70’s. Hell of a lot more justification for it then, too.

So – if you’re in my age group, knock that shit off. World’s changed, like it always does.
If you’re younger, definitely knock that shit off. Judgemental old fool don’t suit you.

Edit to add:

@Alan

Always thought it was a gender neutral name. My housewife certainly don’t have an obvious gender – it just sits in my kit holding the needles and thread and buttons, giving no offense to incels.

Moogue
Moogue
2 months ago

@Lenona

Don’t thank me prematurly- I’m not any more convinced that this is something that has been explicitly taught to USian girls during present times. But I will concede that this was a thing recent enough ago that it does still pop up in our culture here and there. Disney prolly is a good example, if only because the old movies from the 30s and 40s are still beloved and watched by most young girls. And even in modern times it tends to be more conservative.

My issue is that it sounds like you are making a faulty generalization here. There is so many OTHER media sources telling women to work, or to have careers. I will grant that there are probably religious exceptions to this, or other groups that shun modern media and gender roles in general, but imo we’re still talking about exceptions, not rules. But this may be a regional thing.

““You can be independent and physically active if you like, but you shouldn’t REALLY have to work hard to become rich – that’s your parents’ job or your husband’s job or both!” (Or, some version of winning the lottery, if the character is a poor girl who never marries.)”

Sounds similar to the “Mary Sue” complaints that people make about women being competent without “putting in the work”. Problem is, every last piece of media is a fantasy, an escape from reality. No one wants to consume media that truly details all the drudgery that goes into competence, and that goes whether the protagonist is male or female. So why is it that criticism of effortless competence and privilege is always so focused on female characters?

ETA:

I suppose that so long as alimony exists, that is evidence that feminists are being somewhat supportive of housewives.

🤔🤔🤔

What does alimony have to do with feminism? It was a patriarchal paternal judge thing, not something faught for by feminists.

Honest question; are you/have you been involved with MRAs?

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ threp

The sewing kit version of the word seems to have an interesting history too; although no-one seems to know how it originated. But it leads into all that thing of how ‘hussy’ originally just meant mistress of a household, then thrifty woman, then the pejorative meaning.

There’s also some legal stuff about housewife, or hýfreyja in Norse, in relation to Vikings. It was a title signifying a particular status and privileges arising from that; like estate management and being in charge of the family and business finances.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
2 months ago

So why is it that criticism of effortless competence and privilege is always so focused on female characters?

No training montages, obviously.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

IIRC the word “wife” itself is neutral in Old English, but I don’t remember exactly. Old English had grammatical gender of nouns that modern English lacks, with 3 genders: masculine, feminine, and neutral, much like modern German, Icelandic, or Old Norse.

@Lenona, Moogue

I suppose that so long as alimony exists, that is evidence that feminists are being somewhat supportive of housewives.

In addition to what Moogue said, alimony is usually given after divorce, while the idea of being a housewife implies marriage (the word “wife”), so those seem like disconnected ideas.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
2 months ago

@Alan

I always heard it came through to us army slobs from the Victorian wife or housekeeper’s housewife or chatelaine (Those things are neat. I have 5 – always were a pushover for mini toolkits and the like)

Edit: And NOW the bloody edit timer shows up. Sorry for the multiple posts! also vaguely recall hearing wifing used as a term for repairing /working, but that’s old.

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ threp

First known written example of that use from 1735 according to the OED.

“Upon turning the Pocket out, he found only a Thread Paper, a Housewife, and a Crown piece.”

I’m pretty certain chatelaines were the inspiration for army webbing harnesses!

Moogue
Moogue
2 months ago

@Naglfar

I think Lenona may mean “supportive of housewives” in that the theoretical feminists pushing for alimony would be offering housewives a safety net in case of death or divorce. At least that’s the way I read it.

Personally I don’t think that Lenona is here is bad faith, but at the same time they seem to be really well read and hung up on 2nd wave feminism in a way that I’ve personally experienced MRAs to be. But I VERY well could be wrong. And even if I’m right, as long as they show good faith, we all start somewhere, don’t we?

@Threp

No training montages, obviously.

Welp, good thing Legend of Korra just came onto Netflix. I haven’t watched it in a while, and I do so enjoy training “mishaps” that involve buring 1000 year old cultural artifacts and stick-in-the-mud airbending masters. 😁

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Moogue

Personally I don’t think that Lenona is here is bad faith, but at the same time they seem to be really well read and hung up on 2nd wave feminism in a way that I’ve personally experienced MRAs to be.

I’m noticing the same re: 2nd wave stuff, especially during that other thread they were digging hard into sex negativity and sex essentialism. I don’t think they’re an MRA, but I do think they have some conservative ideas.

Dalillama
2 months ago

@Lenona
You never did acknowledge the homophobic bullshit you posted when you first arrived, let alone apologize.

Lenona
Lenona
2 months ago

You tried to get a job lately? As in the last 15 years or so?

I don’t understand why I have to spell everything out, but there’s obviously a big difference between young adults who live with their parents and who DO look for work every day – and young adults who refuse even to TRY. If you look for 100 jobs a week, you clearly have a better chance than someone who only looks for 1 job per week. Plus, did I really need to point out that someone who refuses to look for paid work is not at all likely to be working like a dog around the house just to make the parents happy?

And as for it being a blip of modern parents? It’s been going on for decades. I were hearing the same damned complaint in the 60’s and early 70’s. Hell of a lot more justification for it then, too.

I don’t quite follow – do you mean “complaint” as in parents complaining about their own shiftless adult children, or society complaining about parents who are too cowardly to throw kids out when there ARE jobs to be had?

Incidentally, I don’t know what the pattern over the decades has been in Italy, but in 2002, a judge ordered a father to keep supporting his 30ish son, who’d been to law school IIRC, until the son found a job he liked. However, according to this recent article, the tide is turning – but the implication is that young Italians who live at home are getting breakfast in bed – which sounds very much like a piece I saw on “60 Minutes,” years ago.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/18/europe/italy-adult-child-finance-intl-scli/index.html

If the unemployment rate is as awful as the article says, coddling one’s kids like that won’t exactly motivate them either. (But it’s well known that the unemployment rate and the high cost of living in Italy are two big reasons that a culture that used to embrace big families now has maybe THE lowest birth rate in Europe.)

And Moogue, I just tried to copy one of your paragraphs and couldn’t. I don’t believe there are many self-described feminists who openly support alimony, let alone push for it. But otherwise, your reading of what I said is almost correct. That is, it’s one thing for feminists to scold women in their 20s for wanting to become housewives/mothers and nothing else, but it would look heartless to ignore the plight of abandoned, unskilled 40ish housewives – and make feminism even less popular than it already is with many young conservatives or young poor women. So, most feminists refuse to talk about alimony, let alone move to abolish it. I call that a type of sympathy, at least.

If ALL heterosexual women built up their marketable skills as best they could and thought well in advance about what they would do if their perfect husbands got hit by cars and paralyzed, then chances are more and more young women would start saying “we don’t want our husbands, brothers and sons to be hampered by alimony payments to THEIR exes – it’s time for alimony to go.” But, we’ll have to wait and see.

Btw, feel free to call me “she,” everyone. It makes people’s grammar easier to follow. (The stupid auto-correct already causes too many problems.)

I used to tangle with a few MRAs (at now-defunct forums) just to make them mad. For example, I pointed out to Robert O’Hara (aka “rohara”) that we can’t have Choice for Men because
-ANY man could claim his girlfriend lied about being on the Pill when she didn’t lie
-contraceptives fail
-if a man doesn’t want a pregnancy, it’s HIS job to make sure two contraceptives are used every time
-if unwed fathers were allowed to get off the hook, married fathers eventually could do that too
-fathers of young women are not eager to support their grandchildren and so would not support such a bill
-no politician, left or right, with half a brain would support or even allow a law that would cause the abortion rate to skyrocket

He wasn’t happy – and kept dodging my points.

I got tired of him and others, since they’re so repetitive. It was nice to see that Bernard Chapin seems to have changed his mind and now CARES about new male birth control methods, at least. But we might as well sit back and wait for RISUG or Vasalgel to arrive. I can’t wait for the crushed looks on MRAs’ faces once they realize that the women who insist on condom use will keep doing so – and that single men who don’t use condoms typically don’t WANT to use male birth control and don’t care how many babies they have. Plus, of course, there are all the unsympathetic family judges who will start saying “if you didn’t want a kid, why didn’t you do something in advance?” (Which is, no doubt, why many MRAs refuse to talk about male bc at all. Like Marc Rudov, last I remember.)

Dalillama
2 months ago

@Lenona
I see you.

Lenona
Lenona
2 months ago

Dalillama, I’m not about to go wading through that long thread, let alone bother to figure out how you twisted my words. (Posting here is way too time-consuming as it is.)

All I can say is, if you could read a certain paean I wrote to a late celebrity, a piece that got praise from not only those close to him but from the late political comedian Barry Crimmins (I knew both of them personally), you would never call me homophobic. However, I’m not about to point it out, since it’s under my real name.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
2 months ago

While for some bizarre reason, modern parents often tolerate adult basement kids who refuse even to look for jobs

My kids are too young still for this to be a consideration, but we actually expect that they will live at home with us into adulthood. This is a common situation for many Muslim families of all backgrounds, as well as for many Arab and South Asian families who are not Muslim (and presumably lots of other cultures too). Why should this be seen as a bad thing?

To state that adult children must move out as soon as possible is not just classist, but also racist — or at least woefully unaware.

While of course we will expect our kids to look for jobs, we know that these can be hard to get. A lack of options doesn’t indicate laziness.

kupo
kupo
2 months ago

All I can say is, if you could read a certain paean I wrote to a late celebrity, a piece that got praise from not only those close to him but from the late political comedian Barry Crimmins (I knew both of them personally), you would never call me homophobic.

oh my god you’re insufferable.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Lenona

there’s obviously a big difference between young adults who live with their parents and who DO look for work every day – and young adults who refuse even to TRY

You didn’t make that distinction before. And even then, there’s a pandemic going on, so work might be a bit hard to find and safety may take priority.

That is, it’s one thing for feminists to scold women in their 20s for wanting to become housewives/mothers and nothing else

I don’t think feminists are doing this. I’m not sure where you are getting your ideas about feminism.

I’m not about to go wading through that long thread, let alone bother to figure out how you twisted my words.

How about when you jumped in with your stereotypes about gay men and lesbians? Here’s a link.
And regardless of what you write about a specific gay person, that doesn’t give you a free pass. In other words: Trump praises Ivanka. He’s still a misogynist.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

One human interest story about a family in Italy doesn’t actually prove that millennials are more inclined to laziness and don’t look for jobs.

Lenona
Lenona
2 months ago

To state that adult children must move out as soon as possible is not just classist, but also racist — or at least woefully unaware.

While of course we will expect our kids to look for jobs, we know that these can be hard to get. A lack of options doesn’t indicate laziness.

I think you know very well I wasn’t TALKING about those families where it’s traditional for adults to live with parents or even grandparents. We’ve all heard of such happy families. After all, living together that way can save money, big time, for the needs of all the family members. I heard the Vietnamese refugees pooled their resources as much as possible in multiple ways when they arrived in the US, so as to adjust more quickly.

The problem, of course, comes when we’re talking about the type of community where on average, parents just don’t WANT that arrangement – they want their space, period, and they expect their kids to move in with multiple young roommates if they can’t afford anything better.

And I already made it clear enough at 7:12 that I AGREE with your last paragraph. What’s the problem?

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Lenona

I think you know very well

You keep moving the goalposts and making assumptions of your audience. Assuming you’re arguing in good faith, we still can’t read your mind, so no, we don’t know exactly what you’re thinking.

Lenona
Lenona
2 months ago

Naglfar, ever heard of giving people the benefit of the doubt? As I said, I don’t understand why I have to keep spelling things out. If I’m not sure what someone ELSE means, I just ask, as I did earlier in this thread.

There are stereotypes and stereotypes. Some are only 5% true and others are 80% true. If what I mentioned has changed tremendously over the last two decades, or so, then of course I was wrong. But I would consider it very foolish to pretend the gulf between the two sets of stereotypes doesn’t exist.

In the meantime, about Bracken’s cake – it’s very similar to one collected by Ernest Matthew Mickler in one of his cookbooks. There, it’s called “Lazy-Woman’s Cake” – and it has a good deal more oil. Maybe that’s why I didn’t like Mickler’s recipe. Who wants to taste oil when you’re eating cake?