Categories
Uncategorized

Men’s Rights activists had much more of a say in new campus rape policies than we thought

Education secretary Betsy DeVos, in cahoots with MRAs

By David Futrelle

You may recall the outrage when, back in 2017, Education secretary Betsy “Ten Yachts” DeVos met with members of three fringe Men’s Rights groups — two of which have histories of collaboration with Men’s Rights hate site A Voice for Men — to hear their propaganda about the alleged epidemic of false rape accusations on America’s college campuses.

Well, it turns out that these groups had much more of direct influence that we even knew on DeVos’s recklessly revised campus rape policies, which survived legal challenges and went into effect last week. According to an article by Hélène Barthélemy in The Nation:

Nearly 3,000 pages of e-mails obtained by the anti-corruption organization Democracy Forward through a Freedom of Information Act request and shared with The Nation reveal that the July 2017 meeting was part of a much deeper collaboration between the DOE and these men’s rights groups. From May to September 2017, the DOE’s Office of Civil Rights partnered with NCFMC [National Coalition for Men Carolinas], FACE [Families Advocating for Campus Equality] and SAVE [Stop Abusive and Violent Environments] to develop regulations on campus sexual assault. E-mails make clear that staffers from these organizations participated in conference calls, offered legal advice, and met with high-level employees at the Department of Education. The DOE even hired the main funder of SAVE to help draft new regulations and teamed up with FACE to try to produce supportive op-eds.

The views of these groups have never been hidden. In public and in e-mails with DOE employees, members of these organizations have demeaned the credibility of young women, ridiculed sexual assault survivors, and pushed junk science on campus rape.

Barthélemy goes into great detail on the extensive cooperation between these groups and the Department of Education and does a deft job uncovering the sheer dishonesty, not to mention misogyny, of many of their claims.

I’d strongly recommend you read the whole piece.

UNRELATED NOTE: Not sure why the site was down for several hours today but we’re back now and, well, I’m still rather peeved by the outage, the second one the site has had recently.

Send tips to dfutrelle at gmail dot com.

We Hunted the Mammoth relies entirely on readers like you for its survival. If you appreciate our work, please send a few bucks our way! Thanks!

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

35 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
3 months ago

I wish I could say I was shocked.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
3 months ago

@Victorious Parasol
You and me both.

But no, this development is just par for the course with the Trump administration. In fact, it’s slightly less bizarre than Trump gratefully acknowledging QAnon’s endorsement.

QAnon! Which claims that Trump is secretly saving the world from a left-wing conspiracy involving pedophiles and cannibals. This is our new normal.

Ariblester
3 months ago

Re: website matters, would it be possible to move to HTTPS? All the cool kids are doing it 😝

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 months ago

You know, I can sort of see where they go for when they trash regulations for money. But here, I have the impression that they are evil because they can.

Lukas Xavier
Lukas Xavier
3 months ago

A friendly reminder that the cruelty is the point.

Simon Hales
3 months ago

@Ariblester

WHTM is already available via HTTPS; certificate issued by “Let’s Encrypt” and encrypted with AES 128 bit encryption according to the security information about this page provided by my web browser.

Ariblester
3 months ago

I’ve just read the article.

Candice Jackson, the person at the DoE who ran the Office of Civil Rights, and first set up the meeting with these men’s rights groups, was herself a rape survivor.

Empathy is a quality alien to her, I take it.

Reads the Buzzfeed News article linked in the piece, where she is quoted as saying she is a “libertarian feminist”.

Yup.

Ariblester
3 months ago

Simon Hales wrote on
August 21, 2020 at 7:58 am:

@Ariblester

WHTM is already available via HTTPS; certificate issued by “Let’s Encrypt” and encrypted with AES 128 bit encryption according to the security information about this page provided by my web browser.

I’m not sure how I managed to miss that! My bad.

Naglfar
Naglfar
3 months ago

@Ariblester

she is quoted as saying she is a “libertarian feminist”.

I presume that’s the latest update to Camille Paglia’s “egalitarian feminism” or Christina Hoff Sommers’s “factual feminism.” Who wants to bet she’s also trans-exclusionary like Paglia and Sommers?

Naglfar
Naglfar
3 months ago

O/T but relevant to the blog:
Looks like Jordan Peterson isn’t the only person to do an all-meat diet. James Blunt just revealed that he was so insecure in his masculinity in the 1990s that he followed an all meat diet and developed scurvy.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

We really need to expand upon the way eating disorders are dealt with and discussed. Not only because scores of women struggle with behaviors and thoughts that are a lot like anorexia and bulimia but don’t quite fit, so they get dumped into the EDNOS bucket and forgotten. But also because a lot of disordered eating in men doesn’t quite look like eating disordered eating in women a lot of the time, so it doesn’t get acknowledged as such. To me, it’s disordered eating when men refuse to properly nourish themselves out of masculinity anxiety.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 months ago

I agree WWTH.

While that seem impractical to do, I wish doctors were not aware of the gender of their patients. Because there’s a ton of documented cases where doctors let theirs judgements be clouded by gender stereotypes.

Naglfar
Naglfar
3 months ago

@WWTH
What Blunt did could be disordered, but he mentions doing it to annoy women in his classes, so I’m not sure whether that’s a disorder. I agree that we do need to improve discourse and treatment re: eating disorders, but I’m not sure if going all-meat to annoy vegetarian/vegan women qualifies as a disorder so much as just toxic masculinity run amok (which could be a symptom/trigger of a disorder, I don’t know enough about eating disorders to say).

GoodJobHunters
GoodJobHunters
3 months ago

I just now learned of this blog and the important work you all do.

I want to tell you that you are doing a fantastic job and that I am thankful for the efforts you put into combatting the toxicity of “MRAs” and the manosphere.

I am also impressed that there are men that participate in this effort.

Years ago, I came across all these horrific websites and online community that promote this backward, ignorant and deranged misogyny. I am dismayed and frightened so many people feel this way, but also thankful that people like David combat them successfully. At least for now.

Good Job!

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 months ago
Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 months ago

@Nagfljar : doing that much harm to oneself just to spit other might actually be a disorder. Not that all instance of self harm to own the libs are disorders, but some might be.

More to the point, it can be a combination of an existing, possibly low-intensity, eating disorder and of him wanting to be an asshole to vegans. Thoses two hypothesis aren’t exclusives. It could also be that toxic masculinity degraded his relation with food from a bit abnormal to full on disorder.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 months ago

131 new cases today?! NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU
rips hair out

Things will NEVER get back to normal around here if you idiots keep fucking up like that! The schools open in a couple of fucking weeks and there is NO plan to avoid them becoming massive virus factories and distribution centers!

WEAR YOUR FUCKING MASKS!
KEEP YOUR FUCKING DISTANCE!
We HAVE to get rid of this thing by labor day or WE NEVER WILL!
AAAAAAGHH!
My province is FULL OF FUCKING IDIOTS who are going to get themselves, and possibly me, fucking killed!

How do I fix this??? How??? I need influence, and fast!

Naglfar
Naglfar
3 months ago

@Ohlmann

Thoses two hypothesis aren’t exclusives. It could also be that toxic masculinity degraded his relation with food from a bit abnormal to full on disorder.

That seems plausible. I’m hesitant to blame it all on eating disorders because that would seem to scapegoat other people with eating disorders, but I can see how that could be a factor.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 months ago

I understand what you mean. The thing is that untreated disorders is a big problem, for men and women alike. Men with mental issue often either don’t seek help or are told to man up. Women in pain are often told their pain isn’t real and that they exagerate. So it’s worth looking for men that acknowledge having had eating disorders, even if there’s other factors. Stupid, stupid factors.

The exact opposite of what we need is in that article for example :
https://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/texas-qanon-car-attack-cecilia-fulbright/
Saying that the women have “an history of untreated mental health issue” without saying if it’s an internet diagnosis or a real one and without recontextualizing in in which way thoses unnamed disorders would or would not matter is really asinine.

In the case of Jame Blunt, the contextualization would be that if women can adopt hurtful diets to conform to toxic feminity, men adopting hurtful diet to conform to toxic masculinity could be a reasonable analog. Most importantly, there’s hope to use that example to help or educate people who are hurting.

Katherine the Adequate
Katherine the Adequate
3 months ago

BYU’s Title 9 office and campus law enforcement are heavily influenced by MRAs, but that’s really not a surprise for a religious college. There’s a heavy assumption at that institution that a raped woman is somehow at fault for being raped, and it’s built into school policy.

Moogue
Moogue
3 months ago

I wish the author had given some more evidence for her views of NCFMC, FACE, and SAVE during the first part of the article instead of saving it all for the end, but that’s only a quibble.

As for the changes to the rules;

Among other changes, universities are no longer obligated to investigate most sexual assaults that occur off-campus, where an estimated 80 percent of college students live, or to complete their inquiry within 60 days.

And HOW exactly does this change protect men from being falsely accused of rape? If a woman wanted to lie about a man raping her because she wanted to ruin him, wouldn’t she now simply lie about being raped while on campus?

That is the whole thing about lying, it’s about making shit up. Is there some magic block that prevents liars from lying about locations? Would this just be one lie too much?

Seems like the only people this change protects is actual rapists. Hmmmmmm.🤔

Professors and administrators no longer have to report sexual violence when they’re informed of an incident.

I imagine professors were supposed to report “incidents” because they’re not investigators, and nobody should expect them to be. They have a job to do that doesn’t consist of conducting a thorough investigation in order to decide whether or not there even was an “incident”.

MRAs are always saying that men are owed due process. Well women are owed due process as well. Even if the woman is dead, or even if she is not the one making the report of the crime. Criminals are criminal, and investigating them so they can be dealt with appropriately is good for the community.

At the same time, the DOE effectively raised the evidentiary bar for schools to take action from a “preponderance of evidence” to a “clear and convincing” standard—or from a more than 50 percent likelihood to a more than 75 percent likelihood.

“Preponderance of evidence”. Oh so it was basically a civil court case, those poor poor oppressed men. /s

Although I have to wonder what the authors means by “take action”. The burden of proof gets heavier as the case moves along, as it frankly should. So what exact action is “take action”?

Moogue
Moogue
3 months ago

@Surplus

We HAVE to get rid of this thing by labor day or WE NEVER WILL!

Sorry to say, but COVID19 is here to stay for the next several years, it’s too widespread to “get rid of” at this point. You can’t control other people. Do everything you can to stay safe, and try to look into getting some therapy over the phones or online to help you deal with it. Even a free chatbot such as WYSA can provide some support, dumb AI that it is. There’s also a lot of stuff on DBT that you can find online, I think some of the mindfullness and stress management stuff may help you out.

Good luck.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 months ago

Although I have to wonder what the authors means by “take action”. The burden of proof gets heavier as the case moves along, as it frankly should. So what exact action is “take action”?

The action taken was usually something like separating the perp and the victim so that the victim doesn’t run into the perp in class every day. Many victims report that the “action taken” is pretty weaksauce and they wind up dropping out to avoid the rapist. Occasionally “action” rises to the level of expelling the perp, but that’s pretty unusual. Usually, even under the old rules, the burden of avoiding the perp was on the victim, even in cases where the perp feels entitled to the victim and stalks them across campus.

So they want a “clear and convincing evidence” standard on … telling the perp to take a different section of Biology 201 so that they aren’t in the same class as the victim, generally.

Alan Robertshaw
3 months ago

@ moouge

Professors and administrators no longer have to report sexual violence when they’re informed of an incident.

This is an issue that cropped up recently with our own code of conduct.

The general rule is that we are under an obligation to report to the relevant authority any example of misconduct that we become aware of. It’s a disciplinary offence in itself not to.

That did cause a problem in relation to things like assault and harassment. There was an obligation on the victim to report, and also on anyone they told.

But of course some victims didn’t necessarily want to get the authorities involved at that stage, or at all. They might want to keep it to themselves, or maybe just tell a friend or even an authority figure they trust; but not want them take action before or unless they were ready for that.

So now the code has been modified that it’s up to the victim when and if a report should be made, either by themselves or someone they tell.

Of course, that doesn’t negate the obligation for people like heads of chambers or similar to take the required action if a victim asks them to.

Naglfar
Naglfar
3 months ago

@Moogue
Presumably eventually there will be a vaccine, but that’s not going to be ready by Labor Day.

Moogue
Moogue
3 months ago

@POM

The action taken was usually something like separating the perp and the victim so that the victim doesn’t run into the perp in class every day.

The author later called seperating the perp and victim a “preliminary action”. You might be right, though.

The author should have just said what they meant, so we’re not both left guessing. I’m reading the article because I want to be informed.

@Naglfar

Presumably eventually there will be a vaccine, but that’s not going to be ready by Labor Day.

Yes, eventually this will go away, one way or another. But we have to endure it, and keep ourselves and each other as safe as possible, first. One foot in front of the other.

@ Alan

That did cause a problem in relation to things like assault and harassment. There was an obligation on the victim to report, and also on anyone they told.

I agree, that is really fucked up to punish a victim or their friends for not reporting. But as far as professors go, by the time I got to high school my teachers informed me at the start of every year that they could not keep everything confidential, and that they had a duty to report certain things such as suicide plans, child abuse, etc. because they are mandated reporters. They should have a duty to warn the people they interact with ahead of time.

Naglfar
Naglfar
3 months ago

@Moogue

But as far as professors go, by the time I got to high school my teachers informed me at the start of every year that they could not keep everything confidential, and that they had a duty to report certain things such as suicide plans, child abuse, etc. because they are mandated reporters.

This is how it was at my high school as well, teachers also had to report death threats to others, including those seemingly made in jest, as any could potentially be serious.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 months ago

@Moogue:

Sorry to say, but COVID19 is here to stay for the next several years, it’s too widespread to “get rid of” at this point.

Nonsense. We had over 6000 active cases at our peak, then got it under 1000. Last week the numbers were steadily declining day by day. There is no goddamn reason that this week couldn’t have been like last week in that regard. And next week. And the week after that. And the week after that.

Someone chose to do something different this week than last week, and that choice, whatever it was, is putting everybody at risk. If they had not done so and the decline last week had continued, it might have been eradicated from this province by Labor Day and the only worry then would have been about people importing it again from outside of the province entirely. The brain-dead Tory school reopening plan would be a nonissue, as long as border quarantine policies held up.

But now some idiot has monkey-wrenched that for all of us, and it’s probably going to still be smoldering away when schools open, and after that it will fucking explode.

I don’t suppose anyone has any ideas who might be the idiot in question, who made some different choice this week than last week, and was in an influential enough position that their decisions could turn a slow but steady downward trend into a slow but steady upward trend for a whole fucking province?

Etymologist
Etymologist
3 months ago

Regarding college and university investigations of sexual assault, I’m genuinely puzzled why some institutions are allowed to perform their own private investigations, in-house and extrajudicially, as if they were a kind of sovereign island separate from civil society. In much the same way, we seem OK with churches handling their own sexual assault cases, without recourse to the courts (which as we well know usually leads to abuse being swept under the figurative rug). Surely sexual assault should be a matter for criminal justice, no matter where it occurs or who does it. Police and prosecutors have a pretty bad record when it comes to crimes like rape, but would you rather trust a university (or a church) with a vested interest in keeping bad publicity quiet? Why treat an assault which takes place on a campus, or by a student, any differently from any other crime? Is it somehow not a rape but only an honor code violation if it occurs before graduation?

Naglfar
Naglfar
3 months ago

@Etymologist

Why treat an assault which takes place on a campus, or by a student, any differently from any other crime?

Not sure about in other countries, but in the US a lot of universities have their own on campus police forces, so most crimes would probably be addressed by campus police at first. I’m not sure how much courts get involved with other crimes at universities either as a result.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 months ago

@Etymologist

Churches and universities work differently.

For a university, the burden of proof is lower than the burden in the criminal justice system. For many survivors, what they want is some semblance that someone believes them, takes them seriously, and the perpetrator faces consequences, and if they can’t get that in the criminal justice system (which is usually the case) they can at least get that from the student honor code court. They can get some kind of accommodations, like the rapist not living in the same dorm as the victim, or attending the same classes. They can get a system that at least believes them. Or, that’s how it used to be, dunno how it’s going to be now.

With a church, many church catechisms are explicit in demanding that adherents operate within the church system rather than go to the secular courts. They quote Bible verses that say that believers should be able to police themselves and not resort to worldly police. In theory, a church should engage in restorative justice, but in practice they generally just demand a performance of contrition by the perp, and then demand a performance of forgiveness from the victim, and call it a day. It’s a form of spiritual abuse, but you won’t get the churches to see it that way.

An Impish Pepper
An Impish Pepper
3 months ago

I haven’t been following the stats very closely, but a “steady upward trend for a whole fucking province” smells a little like misapplying overall provincial stats. The province is pretty big. Where are these upticks happening? An uptick in overall provincial numbers in one week seems rather vague to try to assign blame to some specific event. Provinces aren’t hermetically sealed.

Totally eradicating COVID pre-vaccine simply isn’t going to happen without strict lockdowns, and probably even then not without having geographical advantages like Vietnam and New Zealand. “Reopening” frankly shouldn’t be happening the way it is, but society has been designed around having certain things run continuously, so to a large extent it just can’t be helped. The problem is bigger than one person or one government.

I notice a common theme with a lot of your posts, a rejection of suggestions and explanations that would require exposing yourself to potentially bad things through no fault of your own. The problem is we have to build the world we want from the world that already exists.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 months ago

The problem for me, in turn, is that I operate with virtually no margin for error. If I take some sort of gamble and lose, I could very easily find myself without a roof next winter, or without food, or in some other way utterly and royally screwed.

Also, this is not (solely) about me. There are numerous even more vulnerable people in Ontario. Think “also on a meagre disability pension, but with, additionally, a preexisting condition that makes COVID a lot more dangerous”.

Whatever happened that reversed the trend direction will certainly inconvenience me and has a small chance of killing me. It has a much larger chance of killing them, when schools reopen without a proper containment plan with the virus still smoldering in pockets, every schoolchild in Ontario becomes an asymptomatic carrier in short order (save the tiny number who instead get the Kawasaki disease complication and die, of course), and shortly afterward half the adult population is infected by their own kids, or because they worked in a school, and a little after that everyone else gets it just from sheer likelihood of exposure once half the people they come into contact with have the virus.

Moogue
Moogue
3 months ago

@Surplus

Ontario is never going to be able to seal itself up enough to keep all cases of Covid out. Rather than getting all upset everytime this happens, you need to work on your ability to manage stress for when it does happen. Control what you can control. Let go of the rest. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

SophiaS
SophiaS
3 months ago

@ An impish pepper

Islands that got covid relatively late or never are in a good position for an elimination strategy, but I fail to see what geographic advantages Vietnam has. Got it in December or January, has several hundred km border with China. Of course, the border with China is no longer a problem, as china has now also successfully pursued an elimination strategy. NZ did well (proud kiwi here) but I swear people only focus on it because 1) you can make excuses why your country isn’t doing the same and 2) they’re white an rich, so worthy of attention, unlike those other countries.

Sorry, pet peeve. Its certainly true a border makes things harder, especially if it is with a country doing badly in the pandemic.