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Incels agree: If guys don’t have sex in high school they’re ruined for life

“Teenagers” in love: Detail from cover of Teen-Age Romances

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By David Futrelle

It’s not a secret that incels are obsessed with underage girls and the allegedly pure joys of teenage sex. Now they seem to have collectively decided that any guy who doesn’t manage to have sex in high school has lost out on something so magical that he is essentially scarred for life; he might as well rope, as they like to put it.

In a recent post on the Incels.co forums, an incel called Personalityinkwell declares, in all caps, that

SEX IN HIGH SCHOOL IS EVERYTHING

everything else is pure cope. …

The only thing that matters is having good genes/good parents so you can be a JB [jailbait] slayer, everything else is GIGACOPE.

Other incels expand on this theme. Mylifeistrash declares that

it’s the harshest pill

that you only got one shot in life and your genetics determined it all

no amount of self-improvement cope or money maxxing will ever make up for your teenage years

AmIjustDreaming agrees,

No amount of money or any other cope can make up for missed teen love. I’m almost 26 and the teenpill still gets to me. While I rotted playing video games, everyone else was having their first kiss, sex, teen love. It will fuck you up forever.

“Only teen love can make up for missed teen love,” laments LOLI BREEDING.

“Highschools need to offer euthanasia at the last day of school,” adds _wifebeater_.

The anger, naturally, stokes the incels’ feelings of entitlement.

“Its such a crime that we never got to fuck prime girls,” complains Ropemaxx.

And it’s not long before they start talking about the age of consent in the Phillipines.

Even aside from the pedophilia, an undercurrent in almost all incel discussions of sex, this is all just bullshit. There’s nothing magical about having sex as a teenager; it’s exciting, to be sure, but it can also be awkward and even a bit embarrassing, as no one knows what they’re doing at first. Sex can actually be a lot better for everyone once both partners have had a little more (or a lot more) experience.

And sex isn’t everything; it’s certainly a pleasant part of life, for those who are into it, but you can live without it. And lots of people do, living through “dry spells” than can last years. Not having sex in high school doesn’t make you special; it doesn’t even make you all that unusual, given that the average age at which Americans have sex for the first time at is 17, with the percentage of high schoolers having sex dropping below 50% in recent years.

That’s right: MOST PEOPLE in high school aren’t having sex.

Yes, it sucks to go through high school dateless. But there are worse things in life. And you have the rest of your life to make up for lost time. Move the fuck on, dudes; stop fixating on something you cannot change.

There are some guys whose lives basically peaked in high school who spend the rest of their lives trying to recapture what they felt the day they scored the winning touchdown. And they won’t shut up about it. Incels are doing something similar, only backwards, fixating on their sexual failures in high school and never shutting up about them. I can’t decide which group is more pathetic, but I know that neither the aging jock or the aging incel is going to be happy until they clear the resentment and self-hatred out of their heads and start living in the present.

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Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

@Naglfar:

Especially information like how to recognize an abusive relationship and how to get out

Oh wow, yeah, that is so important. And it needs to have information about more than just physical/verbal abuse (which is what you’d most often see in media), it has to include things like emotional abuse and gaslighting, financial abuse, and so on. How to recognize grooming, how to handle things when a friend is in a situation like that, and of course, resources you can turn to (because you will never be able to cover everything in class, and it’s important to know where you can get good information and help).
Plus I think there need to be more general discussions about power structures and how they are placed in them as teenagers (their relations with parents, with teachers or other authority figures, with the state, with each other…) and what they can do. That Little Red Schoolbook from the 70s that I mentioned before was actually not bad in that regard, especially in how to deal with the system, but is of course a bit dated, and I don’t remember if I saw, when I skimmed through that PDF, any mentions of various teen power structures like cliques, which I think should also be discussed. Peer pressure is too often presented as a sort of simplistic “come on, everybody’s doing it, don’t you want to be cool” situation, when often it’s a lot more pernicious.
But this is all pretty huge, and a lot of it is much more than just sexual education, so ideally it would be provided under some other lesson plan.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Alan
In America AFAIK we don’t have many such fans, but maybe it’s because PSAs here are less entertaining.

Although I’m not a hardcore PSA fan, a museum near where I live used to do a show each year of the best British TV commercials, and I generally found that to be enjoyable.

@Penny Psmith

ideally it would be provided under some other lesson plan.

What about a larger curriculum of which sex ed is one part? Like a “health” curriculum that has different components for different years of school. For instance, it could start teaching about consent (in a non sexual way) starting at a fairly young age, then in later years start discussing more about sex and relationships, for a comprehensive education. Maybe this exists in some places already, I’m not sure.

Specialffrog
Specialffrog
1 month ago

I feel we are ignoring the fact that Lenora idolizes Sam Harris.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ naglfar

In America AFAIK we don’t have many such fans, but maybe it’s because PSAs here are less entertaining.

This PIF (‘public information film’ as I insist on calling them; like we did in the 70s) got banned in the US. They’re only allowed to show an edited 30 second version!

Funnily enough, pertaining to the main discussion above, it does have a bit of a side plot about teen relationships. (Maybe that was as much an issue for the ban?)

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Specialffrog
I recall seeing that but had forgotten about it until now. Definitely telling.

At this point I think Lenona is a tradcon trying to sell us that ideology. Bit weird that this is the second troll in a week we’ve had pretending to be left wing/feminist in order to hawk right wing views. Is this the new trend for trolls? They could do to be more entertaining.

That’s not the only hint either, a lot of Lenona’s rhetoric very closely resembles the purity movement, like where they said that girls should be allowed to “go against the grain in a liberal context.” The idea of rebelling against sex, as though it’s somehow rebellious to be abstinent, is a common one in those circles.

@Alan
Possibly as part of the ban, it won’t let me watch it as it’s blocked in the US on copyright grounds. Not sure if that’s the formal ban or something separate.

Viscaria
Viscaria
1 month ago

@Lizzie

@Viscaria, could you maybe clarify a little – so are rainbows made of unicorn poop or am I misunderstanding the science here? Thanking you in anticipation…

Ah, I see you are a fellow scholar! It sounds like you and I have received our information from the same very authoritative source that definitely exists but that I won’t mention here because reasons.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@Naglfar : it could be in general. For example, rebelious girl uniform is having a short skirt in the USA, but it can be having a long skirt in Japan. (I say “can” because the marker of rebellion seem to change fast and a lot in Japan)

Might be an european thing, but the pressure to have sex was quite high in my experience ; in that sense, telling youngsters that it’s okay to not want sex is useful, just as well as telling them that one-night stands are fine too.

In fact, as far as I can tell, the western society ask its youngster to simultaneously be good little samaritain that don’t do sex before marriage *and* crazed sex machines that need to try everything before being 18. Similar to how it ask its women to be both super thin *and* doing sports. I believe it’s why it’s popular for youngster to pretend that only PiV sex count as sex, because it let them fulfill both mandate at the same time.

Lenora sure peddle way strange and disquieting stuff however, who go much further than “hey, sex isn’t everything”. I fully think he or she is either a troll or at least a seriously conservative person.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Ohlmann
I recognize that society does put pressure to have sex, but I wouldn’t say it’s “rebellious” to abstain when the dominant conservative political culture is pushing it. Conservatives like to pretend they’re rebels (e.g. “conservatism is the new punk rock!”) while repeating the status quo. It’s a common reactionary line.

@Viscaria
Aren’t you going to drop a poorly cited quote from a 90s book we haven’t read to explain it?

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
1 month ago

@Alan

Have you seen the “Charley Says” collection on DVD?

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 month ago

@ Naglfar

If you find yourself fingering the ignition or stroking the gear shift, something has gone wrong.

nuh-UHHH! I was a car-mad boy in the 1960s, I know that floor-mounted Hurst shifter had TWO jobe: stir the gears in the transmission, and represent my …

uhhh… nevermind

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

I wish schools also taught that if something happened and you got ab sti it’s not the end of the world. It’s not the end of your life. There are treatments for you. Your sex life is going to have to change a bit and there will be awkward talks with partners and health providers but I wish there wasn’t a stigma around it because an sti doesn’t make you dirty, anymore then catching the flu because you shared a drink with a friend makes you dirty. They aren’t fun of course and you’ll have to deal with them but with a lot of things medical ( like mental health, addiction problems) if you could remove the big stigma around having them it will help people actually want to get treatment and testing done.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
1 month ago

OT, but you may have seen this Pharyngula post re a Dear Prudence letter in Slate, from a bloke who threw away his wife’s birth control and thinks she’s overreacting.

https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2020/08/15/the-unfixable-man/

It’s frighteningly oblivious, a real Yes-You-Are-The-Asehole flesh-creeper of a guy.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

I recognize that society does put pressure to have sex, but I wouldn’t say it’s “rebellious” to abstain when the dominant conservative political culture is pushing it.

In my experience as an asexual person, sex ed is generally pretty good at emphasizing that it’s fine to not have sex if you’re not ready. The harm inflicted on me came from the assumption and societal pressure that you are always eventually supposed to be “ready”, and that there’s something seriously wrong with you if you’re not.

The conservative position was never “hey, not having sex is good actually”, it’s “you must have sex, but only with the person you’re married to”. It’s not even relevant to those of us who don’t want sex.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 month ago

Seriously, the only time I have ever seen the term “heavy petting” was in an “advice” column by Ann Landers… in about 1969

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@opposablethumbs
Holy shit. He threw away her birth control and now is demanding she give up more things for him? She needs to get out of that marriage ASAP.

You might want to send a link to that to David if you haven’t already, that’s the kind of guy he could post about.

@Catalpa

The conservative position was never “hey, not having sex is good actually”, it’s “you must have sex, but only with the person you’re married to”. It’s not even relevant to those of us who don’t want sex.

Exactly. Lenona keeps trying to both sides it and might subscribe to the golden mean fallacy, when really the two sides aren’t polar opposites. One’s about giving people choices, the other is about forcing one path onto all people and shaming those who don’t follow.

Re: heavy petting
I’ve mostly seen that term in the context of satire, mocking the way conservatives talk about sex. I don’t think I’d seen someone use it unironically in anything written after 1970 until today.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 month ago

@ Naglfar:

don’t think I’d seen someone use it unironically in anything written after 1970

😉 😉

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ Vicky P

Have you seen the “Charley Says” collection on DVD?

Ooh no; but I have of course seen them all as a kid. And then there’s the Prodigy sample.

Did you know the voice of Charley was provided by Kenny Everett?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

Paging Cats in Shiny Hats

This popped up in my emails. Don’t know if it’s of any interest to you?

https://news.artnet.com/art-world/quarantine-mail-art-initiative-usps-1902009

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
1 month ago

“Heavy petting” – is that some furry kink?

“Uphill both ways” is a standard exaggerated joke about how hard things were in the old days (or in Yorkshire), e.g. “When I was your age we had to walk 20 miles to school, in hip deep snow, uphill both ways!”

In Finland we used to ski to school all year round, both ways in trackless snow.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

Re: Petting

This was a very familiar sign in swimming pools here (I love that they had to expressly prohibit smoking)

comment image

And is referenced in this song.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 month ago

@ Opposablethumbs:

re: unfixable man….

and he is totally oblivious to the fact that everything after the first conversation (about starting a family) was based on a social convention that HIS wishes have priority.

(TL:DNR…. there IS a point being made here…)

I was in a monogamous relationship for nearly 40 years, to a person who was well-read, feisty and opinionated. We NEVER had a “calm” conversation. We had emotional conversations, heated conversations, crying-together conversations, angry shouting matches….

And conversations. No “calm” conversations. My point being, if the man qualifies the exchange as “calm”, I suspect that either 1) it was not, or 2) he thought he was going to prevail and did not

In my life, I’ve done shit that I knew to be against the values I wished to uphold. I’ve done shit that was steeped in patriarchy and toxic masculinity. When I did them, I knew I was doing them… I knew it was wrong, and I knew I could stop at any time and make amends; all I had to do was STOP. Amends consist of “I was wrong, and I’ll try not to act in that manner in the future,” and amends continue by me NOT ACTING IN THAT MANNER.

There is no “make [them] understand….” There is no “get back to where we were” There’s certainly no “forget about it and move on”

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 month ago

well, poo, I never did make the point I was prepping….

sorry, I have “old folx’ brain” and my reasoning skills are verry ‘trumped out”….

Malitia
Malitia
1 month ago

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie wrote on
August 15, 2020 at 11:29 am:

We NEVER had a “calm” conversation.

My parents had, just before mom filed for divorce… but maybe better adjective would be “icy”.

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

Some more on heavy petting:

In that previously-mentioned Little Red Schoolbook, there’s this bit when discussing masturbation where they suggest answering someone who advises you not to masturbate “too much” by asking “how much is the right amount then?” – in a similar way, I find myself tempted to ask what makes petting heavy, what is light petting, and how can you tell the difference.

@Lainy:
Absolutely! Feeling ashamed of an STI (or any genital issue, like UTIs, yeast infections, weird rashes or what have you) is not only bad for your mental state, it can also lead to them going untreated, making things a whole lot worse down the line (and possibly infecting others). It’s so important to give straightforward information both about the diseases themselves and about treatment options, without making people feel bad or dirty for having them.
(And this also reminds me – there needs to be more awareness about things like vaginismus, vestibulodynia and so on, and of course any equivalents from the penis-having side of things. People shouldn’t feel like they’re somehow “broken” or “wrong” because they have a medical issue.)

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ weird eddie

sorry, I have “old folx’ brain

You don’t have to worry until you get to the stage where you go into a room, can’t remember why, and then when you go back into the original room you think “Oh yeah; fire extinguisher.”

@ penny psmith

what makes petting heavy

It’s when your petting has an extra neutron

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

Touching is sexy. I love the feel of my guys’ shoulders, back and chests and love my hands on them. Heavy petting sounds like 1950s conservative creep and the fact it comes from that mindset to me kind of back handedly shames me for the fact that I already think touching a male body that way, especially if it’s done as part of our kink performance art, counts as sex.

Why can’t we just like what we like? If people are communicating and enjoying each other everybody else shut up.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
1 month ago

@Naglfar, I actually hadn’t thought of that (>.<) so now I have emailed.

Yes, it's gobsmackingly arrogant and high-handed. The thought of being trapped with someone like that is frightening – I hope she gets the fuck out. She needs to get good escape advice from someone like Captain Awkward!

@Weird Eddie, yes. He thinks claiming to have been ‘calm’ gives him free rein to just fucking ride roughshod over anything she wants, thinks or cares about.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@Alan

I think that cartoon couple in the pool are kind of cute. All they’re doing is just sort of holding each other and the hearts are supposed to show they’re attracted to each other.

What that awful and repressive sign is saying is “don’t act on your attraction to the person you’re attracted to”

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Alan Robertshaw

It’s when your petting has an extra neutron

If we add another neutron to heavy petting I assume we get radioactive petting.

@Stacey

What that awful and repressive sign is saying is “don’t act on your attraction to the person you’re attracted to”

Maybe, but I think it is also suggesting that in public, other people are watching and may not want to be a part of one’s love life, and may not consent.
Even though I don’t personally mind other people being affectionate in public, I know some people do and I don’t want to inadvertently hurt them.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 month ago

“Oh yeah; fire extinguisher.”

I snorted my coffee….

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

I think it’s pretty clear that the unfixable man’s wife is formulating an escape plan, and that’s why she’s on the phone to unknown parties and out of the house a lot.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@Naglfar

Then they don’t have to watch. “Watching” makes it sound like it’s something someone actively is choosing to do. And the way the cartoon is drawn the couple aren’t being overly affectionate. She isn’t pulling him close to her and trying to get into his arms. He’s not pulling her close to him. They aren’t even petting, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

Then they don’t have to watch. “Watching” makes it sound like it’s something someone actively is choosing to do.

There’s a line on PDA that it’s not respectful to cross, because it pulls unwilling third parties into one’s sex life. The couple in the picture clearly haven’t crossed it, but if one is running one’s hands all over one’s partner, that line has been crossed, and telling people “don’t watch me while I basically have sex right in front of you” is disrespectful and violating the consent of others.

Dalillama
Dalillama
1 month ago

@Penny Psmith

a similar way, I find myself tempted to ask what makes petting heavy, what is light petting, and how can you tell the difference.

Light petting: hands outside of clothes
Heavy petting: hands inside of clothes

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 month ago

Light petting: what cats like
Heavy petting: what dogs like

@ Policy:

PDA … public displays of affection….

I was doing braintwisters trying to notch “personal digital assistant” into your comment 🙂

Ariblester
1 month ago

I’ve always assumed that heavy petting was just an older/more formal name for what is now termed “outercourse”.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
1 month ago

@Alan

I did not know that, but I bet Mr. Parasol would be chuffed to know that (assuming he doesn’t already). As you may’ve guessed, he’s the one who bought the DVD. PIFs/PSAs are of great interest to him.

On the topic of PDA, I confess that Mr. Parasol and I were once that semi–obnoxious couple who kissed a lot at a gathering of friends. I plead honeymoon fever; we’d only been married about a month at that point, and were also still snogging briefly at red lights because we were so happy to be together. We’ve gotten a lot more subtle since then.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Weird Eddie

I was doing braintwisters trying to notch “personal digital assistant” into your comment

Same here. I’ve also heard it jokingly expanded as “public display of awesomeness.”

epitome of incomprehensibility

I did see the term “heavy petting” as a teen, and I was born in ’88 – it was in some sex-ed book – but I don’t think I’d ever heard people say it so I found it funny. To me, “petting” was totally non-sexual – something you did to cats and dogs. (Ugh, now I’m reminded of the incel “dogpill” again.)

Cats In Shiny Hats
Cats In Shiny Hats
1 month ago

@Alan

Oh, yes! That is relevant to my interests, thank you for the link.

@Valentin

Don’t forget Aromantic people. Lenona also seems to think that Aromantic people don’t exist.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Cats in Shiny Hats
And although she hasn’t said it outright, she also probably doesn’t feel too warmly towards polyamory.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@Stacey : I am one of the person that generally speaking would prefer to not see people show their affection in public, and the “just don’t look” just don’t seem pertinent because :
* for me, there’s no exactly a ton of difference between people touching each other and people having sex. I can understand people being on the “should be allowed to have sex in public” camp, but I am in the opposed camp of “please keep your couple life private”
* as PoM said, it can be involving stranger in your couple life, and that’s something not be done without consent
* in the average pool I have visited, I might have to look at the spectacle simply to not run / swim into it. Some specific person like pool safety officer might need to look in permanence to make sure you’re safe. Point dependant on how the pool is architectured and where you are, of course.

Because I am not a complete monster and can understand different people having different opinions, and also because some couple guenuingly don’t have anywhere private to go, especially if they are young, I do understand that there is a bit of leeway about that

I would also state that if I can’t normally get to see a couple while doing normal activities, that couple can do whatever they want. That may seem self-evident, but I guess a lot of conservatives are more like “if I can find you in less than a week while using dogs, torchlights and helicopters, then it’s not private !!! think of the children !!!”.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Cats In Shiny Hats,

I tried to point out to her that aromantics exist, but she just ignored it. I guess if something can’t be made to fit the narrative, best pretend it doesn’t exist!

Cats In Shiny Hats
Cats In Shiny Hats
1 month ago

@WWTH

That’s right, you did. My apologies.

NautaliaC
NautaliaC
1 month ago

@Naglfar

Is this something your relatives told you? I’m not sure I understand. I recognize the “bird in the hand” bit but not the rest.

I’m so late to responding to this, my apologies. I wrote a composite phrase of different sayings as a joke to emphasize the silliness of it.

My relatives’ phrase consisted of a long ‘yup’ for emphasis and that’s basically it. From what I can recall, at least.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@NautaliaC

I’m so late to responding to this, my apologies. I wrote a composite phrase of different sayings as a joke to emphasize the silliness of it.

Ah. I was a bit confused earlier, but at least it makes more sense than much of Lenona’s writing.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Cats In Shiny Hats,

Nothing to apologize for! I was just adding to your post.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 month ago

content warning, trauma discussion

O.T. waaayyyy o.t., but I need to unload. An earlier discussion featured an example of an intoxicated person stumbling on to railroad tracks; I have no input there, but….

My last career was in support of the rail road industry, and I had a detail which required me to parse material for rail safety PSAs. Part of that detail included editing incident and accident film from on-board cameras. Please be cautious around the rails. Please.

There was material in those films that would not be educational, it would be traumatizing.

One of the accidents involved two teenagers fishing from a long “open-deck” rail road bridge. By the time they heard the train horn, they were already dead. They simply could not run fast enough to get off the bridge before the train hit them. One got hit, the other jumped to their death. Through sheer unholy bad fortune, I knew the train driver and one of the teenagers. My point here is, the PSAs often do have very valuable information. The way I suggested the rail road use that example was, set it up as a mathematics problem, e.g. given the speed, distance, length of bridge, “how fast do you think you would need to run in order to make it off in time?” (spoiler alert, it was a 100-yd dash in 14.8 seconds, running on oily railroad ties with open-air spaces between them)

NautaliaC
NautaliaC
1 month ago

Ah. I was a bit confused earlier, but at least it makes more sense than much of Lenona’s writing.

Burn.

I know not everyone knows how to formulate an argument so sometime it’s hard to distinguish problems with structure and logic versus the content of the argument if that person is difficult to read. Since I’m on my phone for the bulk of the day, I can’t make large arguments simply due to inconvenience. But, I do like adding flavor and levity to the conversation if it’s welcome!

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

@ Weird Eddie

Another big tragedy of rail line accidents is that the person struck is often charged damages for having stopped railway operations. It seems heartless of the rail line, but it’s how it works. If the person was killed and their estate is nothing, then the railway collects nothing, but if the person survives they can be sued for big bucks and criminal charges can be pressed. There was an accident on the Pope Lick trestle in 2016 where a young woman was killed and her boyfriend survived, and the railway had him arrested and sued him for damages.

But staggering-drunk people are not the typical victims of railway accidents. It’s people who are sober but have bad judgment when it comes to trestles. They think they can run when they hear the train but the train is going very fast and can’t stop when the operator sees them.