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Incels agree: If guys don’t have sex in high school they’re ruined for life

“Teenagers” in love: Detail from cover of Teen-Age Romances

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By David Futrelle

It’s not a secret that incels are obsessed with underage girls and the allegedly pure joys of teenage sex. Now they seem to have collectively decided that any guy who doesn’t manage to have sex in high school has lost out on something so magical that he is essentially scarred for life; he might as well rope, as they like to put it.

In a recent post on the Incels.co forums, an incel called Personalityinkwell declares, in all caps, that

SEX IN HIGH SCHOOL IS EVERYTHING

everything else is pure cope. …

The only thing that matters is having good genes/good parents so you can be a JB [jailbait] slayer, everything else is GIGACOPE.

Other incels expand on this theme. Mylifeistrash declares that

it’s the harshest pill

that you only got one shot in life and your genetics determined it all

no amount of self-improvement cope or money maxxing will ever make up for your teenage years

AmIjustDreaming agrees,

No amount of money or any other cope can make up for missed teen love. I’m almost 26 and the teenpill still gets to me. While I rotted playing video games, everyone else was having their first kiss, sex, teen love. It will fuck you up forever.

“Only teen love can make up for missed teen love,” laments LOLI BREEDING.

“Highschools need to offer euthanasia at the last day of school,” adds _wifebeater_.

The anger, naturally, stokes the incels’ feelings of entitlement.

“Its such a crime that we never got to fuck prime girls,” complains Ropemaxx.

And it’s not long before they start talking about the age of consent in the Phillipines.

Even aside from the pedophilia, an undercurrent in almost all incel discussions of sex, this is all just bullshit. There’s nothing magical about having sex as a teenager; it’s exciting, to be sure, but it can also be awkward and even a bit embarrassing, as no one knows what they’re doing at first. Sex can actually be a lot better for everyone once both partners have had a little more (or a lot more) experience.

And sex isn’t everything; it’s certainly a pleasant part of life, for those who are into it, but you can live without it. And lots of people do, living through “dry spells” than can last years. Not having sex in high school doesn’t make you special; it doesn’t even make you all that unusual, given that the average age at which Americans have sex for the first time at is 17, with the percentage of high schoolers having sex dropping below 50% in recent years.

That’s right: MOST PEOPLE in high school aren’t having sex.

Yes, it sucks to go through high school dateless. But there are worse things in life. And you have the rest of your life to make up for lost time. Move the fuck on, dudes; stop fixating on something you cannot change.

There are some guys whose lives basically peaked in high school who spend the rest of their lives trying to recapture what they felt the day they scored the winning touchdown. And they won’t shut up about it. Incels are doing something similar, only backwards, fixating on their sexual failures in high school and never shutting up about them. I can’t decide which group is more pathetic, but I know that neither the aging jock or the aging incel is going to be happy until they clear the resentment and self-hatred out of their heads and start living in the present.

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Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

“Uphill both ways” is a standard exaggerated joke about how hard things were in the old days (or in Yorkshire), e.g. “When I was your age we had to walk 20 miles to school, in hip deep snow, uphill both ways!”

And we were grateful!

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I didn’t fool around in a graveyard until I was 21 or 22, but I was always a late bloomer. My friends and I did hang around in the cemetery near my house a lot though.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Catalpa

I don’t see how being in a relationship that involves penetration with one’s genitals is somehow incomparable to a relationship where you are merely rubbing each other’s genitals.

I’m allosexual and I would say these are definitely comparable. Plus, for a lot of relationships PIV sex is undesirable or not possible. Defining PIV as the be-all, end-all of sex is problematic for many reasons.

@Lenona

if one partner blabs all the details on social media the day after, that’s causing heartache AND bullying

It’s also NOT THE VICTIM’S FAULT.
As for the gay man, wouldn’t the right thing to do be to try to address the homophobia in society instead of blaming the man for having sex? It isn’t his fault he was recorded.

But chances are they won’t be irritated by indirect warnings. Why would they?

Have you met a teenager? Telling them what is taboo just makes them want to do it more, generally.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

Oh, and if one partner blabs all the details on social media the day after, that’s causing heartache AND bullying, especially if others join in.

That’s not heartache, that’s slut-shaming. Everybody knowing that you are having sex is not a problem if slut-shaming is not a thing. It’s only an issue when you’re made to feel bad about the fact that you’ve had sex – that you’re “easy.”

Your own slut-shaming makes this worse, not better.

or the young gay male college student in NYC who jumped off a bridge when he found out he’d been recorded.

That’s because he was NOT OUT you twit. He was forcibly outed. Being outed and being slut-shamed are both bad, but bad in completely different ways. Don’t fucking equate them.

Again, I don’t believe in directly saying to teens “don’t do this” unless we’re talking about possible criminal charges. But chances are they won’t be irritated by indirect warnings. Why would they?

But you believe that telling them not to have sex OR ELSE TRAUMATIC HEARTACHE is going to deter them? They can’t be deterred from slut-shaming, so they should be deterred from all sex, and that will somehow work? I am laughing at how stupid this is.

Mrs Morley
Mrs Morley
1 month ago

the person who WANTS it to be a ONS plans to shun, more or less, the second party ever after

Yeah no. At least not where and when I was a teen.

But even if it were true, so what?

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@PoM

They can’t be deterred from slut-shaming, so they should be deterred from all sex, and that will somehow work?

It’s Schrödinger’s Shame: they are simultaneously slut-shamed and not slut-shamed until you check.

@Mrs Morley
It wasn’t that way where I grew up either.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

@Lenona

I think you need a quote that might help put everything in perspective for you because its something you really need to understand

“Life is pain, anyone who says otherwise is selling something” The princess bride.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

Off topic:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/colorado-mom-inspired-qanon-conspiracy-sought-kidnap-her-own-child-n1111711

This is an example of how Q-Anon beliefs is causing active harm. I’m seeing some discussions elsewhere on the internet on whether the legal system is ready to handle cases where widespread beliefs results in a case where the just and moral thing to do would be to commit a crime, provided the beliefs were correct… but they’re not. You know, like if there were actual witches cursing people and ruining their milk and crops, then catching and burning witches would be the right thing to do.

I would say that no kid gloves or special consideration is needed. It provides a ready-made excuse to get off with mild (or occasionally no) punishment for a serious crime… which basically comes down to “they said” / “are they lying”. It can be really hard to prove whether someone really believes what they’re saying.

We saw that with Trans Panic, and before that with Gay Panic, and before that with Black Brute Panic (which is unfortunately still occasionally a thing, particularly in cases of police misconduct), and before that with Jewish Blood Libel (still a thing, sort of, but almost no one takes it seriously). It’s not a great idea.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Snowberry

This is an example of how Q-Anon beliefs is causing active harm.

What’s also dangerous is how QAnon is gaining more and more public legitimacy because a number of Q believing candidates are likely to be elected to Congress. And the party is doing nothing about it, as expected.

Unfortunately, gay/trans panic are still valid defenses in most states. As for blood libel, it’s not as common for people to straight up say it, but a similar idea is at the root of a lot of modern conspiracy theories (e.g. the adrenochrome conspiracy theories, aspects of QAnon).

QAnon is the logical conclusion of the conservative projection complex. They don’t want to be the bad guys in their own narrative, so they can’t admit that they are doing horrible things. Instead, they claim the Democrats are satanic pedophiles with the Illuminati so they can justify their horrors as in service of defeating the imaginary enemy. They also project all their own crimes onto this enemy, which gives them a clear conscience.

Lenona
Lenona
1 month ago

“Have you met a teenager? Telling them what is taboo just makes them want to do it more, generally.”

That’s why I said “indirect.” How many times do I have to say it?

We SHOULD be ordering kids not to bully and exploit others (and to stand up for victims) even when adults aren’t looking. (Too many awful parents just don’t care how cruel their kids are until someone calls the police – and then they often turn into their kids’ lawyers and deny everything.)

We also have to teach teens not to commit crimes out of ignorance, since judges often aren’t sympathetic to that, as I mentioned. (Not to mention drunk driving.)

In all those cases, one has to use blunt language – and threats if necessary. (Like the mother who sold her son’s car when she found alcohol under the seat.)

But I’ve made clear by now, it’s another matter altogether when you don’t want to blame potential victims, of course, but you also don’t want your kid either becoming a crime victim or a bullying victim – if only because adults usually have enough on their plates already without having to deal with avoidable teen soap operas or worse. Then, you have to give them all the INDIRECT information that they just might want, even if they don’t admit to wanting it. That’s why I mentioned coming up with non-gendered reasons to avoid heavy drinking, since no girl wants to hear that it’s ok for men to drink but not women. No, it’s NOT ok for men to get heavily drunk and stagger onto railroad tracks – what about the poor engineer who has to live with that nightmare for years?

I don’t see what’s wrong with giving kids real-life information. It’s all in how you present it.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

No, it’s NOT ok for men to get heavily drunk and stagger onto railroad tracks – what about the poor engineer who has to live with that nightmare for years?

Most people who get stagger-drunk don’t wander onto railroad tracks. WTF kind of fantasy world do you live in, where the main reason not to get drunk is because you might die on the railroad? Around here, the only people who die on the railroad are the ones chasing the Pope Lick Monster, and they typically are sober.

I don’t see what’s wrong with giving kids real-life information. It’s all in how you present it.

If you present your anti-drinking message as “it’s dangerous to get drunk because: railroad tracks!” you’re going to be laughed out of the room.

Cats In Shiny Hats
Cats In Shiny Hats
1 month ago

I think that Lenona is straight up anti-sex. Ok any kind, between anyone of any genders in any combination. I just read the whole thread at once and it seems to me like any time someone brings something up the closest they come to responding to it is some variation of “that’s bad too”.

They also seem to have a horrible core on teenagers, thinking that you have to manipulate them rather than actually teach them things.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

@lenona

You aren’t giving them real life information though. Like i said I’m sorry if you regretted your highschool sex experience but the majority of teenagers don’t. If they do they get over it because it was highschool. Sex is fun. It feels good. It is pleasurable. It’s as big as deal as the individual person wants to make it and if you want to go “meh not a big deal” then it’s not a big deal. You make this to complicated. You make it sound like sex is like juggling chainsaws on fire while ice skating.

I feel like you want to be like “precious delicate virginal teenage girls, you must hold tight to you purity because the boy beast wants to eat up and leave you a broken heart and destroyed soul because he has “gasp” sexual desire that your pure lady brain does not have and you must fight against his manly sexuality that you do not have.”

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

I had a long comment but it seems to have been eaten by the mammoth. Maybe it will show up later.

Anyway, I’ll try to summarize it.

That’s why I said “indirect.” How many times do I have to say it?

Not sure why you think that will be more effective. Teens can see what’s going on.

Then, you have to give them all the INDIRECT information that they just might want, even if they don’t admit to wanting it.

You haven’t given much information, just waffling about sources that have no relation to this.

I don’t see what’s wrong with giving kids real-life information. It’s all in how you present it.

The problem is, your panic about one night stands isn’t real information, it’s a judgement you’re trying to pass off as a universal fact.

@Cats in Shiny Hats

I think that Lenona is straight up anti-sex.

I’m also getting a real 2nd Wave vibe in a lot of what they’re saying and who they cite.

@Lainy

If they do they get over it because it was highschool.

Ironically, Lenona being hung up on this reminds me a lot of the incels in the post. Most people do get over it, but apparently some don’t and Lenona is one of them.

Lenona
Lenona
1 month ago

Here’s another example of being indirect.

Pre-COVID, you didn’t see cops going on local TV just before a big holiday weekend to tell SOBER drivers to stay off the road, even if some cops might have wanted to say that. Obviously, that would be horribly in fair to law-abiding citizens – and it would embolden lawbreakers. However, the fact that the cops NEED to go on TV to remind people not to drink and drive and that extra cops are needed to watch for drunk drivers is, inevitably, a reminder to sober drivers that they just might want to CHOOSE to stay off the road that night. If possible. (And the cops certainly don’t mind when they do.)

Lainy, I saw the movie, so I already know it’s a comedy. Even if it weren’t, there’s no reason not to treat life like defensive driving. (I’m hardly the first to compare navigating sex to defensive driving.) In other words, if, say, individual women have the right to insist on epidurals to minimize pain – or the right to refuse motherhood altogether, what right does anyone have to say either of THOSE choices is wrong, wimpy, or cowardly, just because both prevent pain and hardship, in different ways? There will be plenty of other hardships to deal with, after all. Why add to them?

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

If you present your anti-drinking message as “it’s dangerous to get drunk because: railroad tracks!” you’re going to be laughed out of the room.

Yeah, kids see through the bullshit. We mocked anti-drug PSAs all the time as kids.

My personal favorite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqaocGXy1uM

Even the Ninja Turtles couldn’t save it.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Lenona

However, the fact that the cops NEED to go on TV to remind people not to drink and drive

Does this happen elsewhere? I don’t watch local TV, so I don’t know if it’s in my area, but I’ve never heard about it.

I already know it’s a comedy.

Comedies can still make social commentary. That doesn’t invalidate Lainy’s use of the quote.

I’m hardly the first to compare navigating sex to defensive driving.

If you think sex is like driving, you are doing one of those activities very wrong. If you find yourself fingering the ignition or stroking the gear shift, something has gone wrong.

In other words, if, say, individual women have the right to insist on epidurals to minimize pain – or the right to refuse motherhood altogether, what right does anyone have to say either of THOSE choices is wrong, wimpy, or cowardly, just because both prevent pain and hardship, in different ways?

Exactly, those are choices. They can make life better, but there are also possible complications. It’s for the individual to choose. Much like how someone should be allowed to choose if/how they are sexually active.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

@Lenona

Okay but sex isn’t painful?? it isn’t traumatic?? it isn’t a hardship?? it feels good? it’s pleasurable??? it’s nice?? are you that dude who was here a while back who tried to convince me all sexual acts were violent even the ones i have with my husband? because you sound like him? does retaining your sperm give you magical powers Leonona? Also your talking to a rape survivor. I know what real trauma is. The shit your talking about it ain’t it hun.

Sex is not a bad thing. I’m sorry you think it is. I’m sorry you think sex leads to pain. For me it leads to orgasms and a nap. And it has since I was like 16 and started fucking. It does now at almost 22 with my husband and the other partners we have. it’s fun. And i will tell my kids that. Sex is fun, have it when you want, tell me I’ll be there to help you, communicate with your partner.
Hell i’ll buy them a fucking dildo if they want to experience piv or pia before having it with a real person if they want. I’m 100% for sex and doing what they want with their bodies, I’m for them not having it if they want to. The last thing sex will be in my house hold is a big thing because I’m pretty sure people like you lead to teen pregnancy and the spread of STIs.

Cats In Shiny Hats
Cats In Shiny Hats
1 month ago

@Lenona

If you treat life like defensive driving you won’t live life. I say this as someone who spent so long trying to minimize all pain and all hardships because “there will be plenty of other hardships” that I couldn’t avoid that I didn’t do anything.

I almost made a list of all the things I didn’t do, then realised that I don’t have time for that.

I have loads of regrets for things I haven’t done. Not very many for the things I have done.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

My personal favorite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqaocGXy1uM

Even the Ninja Turtles couldn’t save it.

My personal favorite will always be the classic:

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

there’s no reason not to treat life like defensive driving

There are plenty of reasons not to hide away from risk. If you want to never risk anything, that’s your decision, but don’t generalize your personal choices to the world as if your choices are right for everyone.

The most defensive driving is not to drive at all. It’s no wonder you think nobody should have sex at all if that’s your analogy.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

If you find yourself fingering the ignition or stroking the gear shift, something has gone wrong.

I mean, if you drive a standard there’s a fair amount of pushing in the clutch and moving the gearshift up and down…

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Lainy

are you that dude who was here a while back who tried to convince me all sexual acts were violent even the ones i have with my husband? because you sound like him? does retaining your sperm give you magical powers Leonona?

I think the guy AVN in the other thread might have been the semen guy, they had a very similar writing style.

Re: drug PSAs
My favorite must be one that John Oliver mocked on his show some years ago, I can’t find it now but it spent a minute lecturing about the dangers of the “pot needle.” If we’re going for longer media, the film Reefer Madness is always a classic.

@Catalpa
And of course, many men can’t find the clutch.

Lenona
Lenona
1 month ago

PoM, I gave two other reasons for men to avoid heavy drinking, if you forgot. I’ll give another one – heavy drinking can hurt your overall health after a while, even if it doesn’t always make you fat. (I also knew someone who did pass out and who froze to death.)

“Like i said I’m sorry if you regretted your highschool sex experience but the majority of teenagers don’t.”

On the contrary, I don’t regret anything I did, back then. However, I do look back and shudder over all the particular chances I COULD have taken, both then and in college. I’m very glad I didn’t. Especially anything related to alcohol. Getting drunk on an empty stomach was just completely weird and alien to me, so I wasn’t tempted. (I was also never tempted to ride in a car driven by someone who got a driver’s license the day before – it would have terrified me. What’s wrong with that?)

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Lenona

I gave two other reasons for men to avoid heavy drinking, if you forgot.

In the specific comment PoM replied to, you only mentioned railroad tracks.

However, I do look back and shudder over all the particular chances I COULD have taken, both then and in college. I’m very glad I didn’t. Especially anything related to alcohol. Getting drunk on an empty stomach was just completely weird and alien to me, so I wasn’t tempted.

Are you aware that alcohol and sex are different? And WTF does this have to do with how teens shouldn’t be having one night stands?

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

@Lenona

What does any of this have to do with sex? why are you against sex? why do teenager having sex bother you so much? does it make you cringe to find out i started experimenting at 14? should i have waited till i was 20 in your mind? should I have waited till marriage? are you against masturbation? Like really what is your malfunction fam?

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

heavy drinking can hurt your overall health after a while, even if it doesn’t always make you fat.

Alright, this is the second time you’ve referred to fatness in a derogatory manner. Stop it. Fatphobia is a shitty and harmful thing to engage in and it actually does cause trauma and pain. If you actually cared about minimizing harm you wouldn’t take part in it.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

PoM, I gave two other reasons for men to avoid heavy drinking, if you forgot.

I didn’t forget. I just skim your longer posts because they’re too boring to read. Concision, what is it?

However, I do look back and shudder over all the particular chances I COULD have taken, both then and in college. I’m very glad I didn’t.

That’s your decision. That’s not a decision for you to impose on everyone. Not everyone lives their lives hiding under the bed in fear of what might happen, and not everyone should, despite what you think. Your fears, your regrets, your heartache, don’t belong to everyone and not everyone experiences life the same way you do. One time I climbed down a cliff to get at a little cave under the overhang. I’m not a climber and had no equipment, and could have slipped and died. But I don’t live my life based on worst-case scenarios.

I feel like you’d be a fan of the evangelical book I Kissed Dating Goodbye which posits that heartbreak is the worst thing in the world and should be avoided at the cost of literally everything. You should never date, you should never “give pieces of your heart away” to someone you’re not going to marry. The book is a product of purity culture. That should tell you something.

Ariblester
1 month ago

Snowberry wrote on
August 14, 2020 at 9:41 pm:

Off topic:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/colorado-mom-inspired-qanon-conspiracy-sought-kidnap-her-own-child-n1111711

This is an example of how Q-Anon beliefs is causing active harm. I’m seeing some discussions elsewhere on the internet on whether the legal system is ready to handle cases where widespread beliefs results in a case where the just and moral thing to do would be to commit a crime, provided the beliefs were correct… but they’re not. You know, like if there were actual witches cursing people and ruining their milk and crops, then catching and burning witches would be the right thing to do.

I would say that no kid gloves or special consideration is needed. It provides a ready-made excuse to get off with mild (or occasionally no) punishment for a serious crime… which basically comes down to “they said” / “are they lying”. It can be really hard to prove whether someone really believes what they’re saying.

We saw that with Trans Panic, and before that with Gay Panic, and before that with Black Brute Panic (which is unfortunately still occasionally a thing, particularly in cases of police misconduct), and before that with Jewish Blood Libel (still a thing, sort of, but almost no one takes it seriously). It’s not a great idea.

One of the purported activities of the people that Qanon points the finger at (which is a fairly long list, both of people and activities) is killing children to take their blood for nefarious purposes (i.e. blood libel), so I’ll not say that “almost no one takes it seriously”; as we can see, enough do that it has become a problem.

Valentin
Valentin
1 month ago

Ok I’m trying to understand lenore, but all of it seems very incorrect and generalizing, so also basically incorrect. So leonora is saying:

that they think only certain people have sex and only in certain ways.
Lesbians donr have one night stands becuase of women’s feelings are too fragile?
But gay men can have one night stands becuase of what? They dont have feelings?
But either way, leonora thinks one night stands are bad? But doesnt give any evidence for this or make an argument.
Heterosexual couples can still give diseases to each other even if they are monogamous. But they dont mention that people can get disease tests to be sure there are no diseases if they want to stop contraception. Leonora doesnt seem to know this.
They also seem to think teenage girls cant want sex as much as teenage boys. And that teenage boys are always dangerous to teenage girls (and always interested in girls)
Ace people dont exist for leonora and disabled people dont have sex apparently???
Ans love doesnt exist without sex.

But anyway it is so hard to understand and leonora gives no evidence or arguement

Viscaria
Viscaria
1 month ago

Wow, this thread is a whole mess. (I almost said “trainwreck,” but then I thought better of it.)

As I understand it, one-night stands are appealing and at least somewhat Mutually Beneficial to many gay male adults. Not so with adult lesbians, as a rule.

Feline, as I understand it, in medieval times, boys and girls alike were expected to marry in their early-mid teens, even if girls weren’t ALWAYS lucky enough to get husbands under 30.

As I understand it, unicorn poop has antigravity properties which cause it to float up into space immediately upon exit from the unicorn. No, I will not be providing any citations. You have my understanding.

@Lenona

I am sincerely happy to learn that you don’t regret the decisions you made regarding sex during your teenage years. Unfortunately, you seem to be unaware that there is a whole world full of people who are not you who have different desires and priorities and ways of looking at the world. The right decisions for you are not the right decisions for every teenage girl on the planet.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 month ago

What is HAPPENING in this thread? Let me see if I have this straight. My blockquotes are summaries of what I’m understanding from @Lenona’s posts, and not direct quotes. I expand on my thoughts below them. (I am going to be really reductionary, and talk about cis women and cis men, for the most part. Sorry for that, I just needed to start somewhere, and this seemed the easiest thing to tackle first.)

-Gay men prefer one night stands.

It is not explained why, so I’m going to posit it’s because they don’t actually have meaningful relationships, they’re just have sex for the sex. Also, men have higher sex drives than women, always, so it makes sense that gay men would want more sex. Two men = twice the sex drive! (With extra double mint gum!)
comment image

Note: Men have varying sex drive, just like everyone on the planet. Generalising it to “men always want one thing!” says that men are

a) always up for sex (which makes it hard to believe they would not consent to sex, which makes it hard to believe they could/would be raped)

b)can’t control themselves around women. It’s up to women to stop men from having sex with them. This means that a rape is always the women’s fault, why wasn’t she better at controlling the men around her?

Lesbian women don’t have one night stands

Women, on the other hand, don’t have the same huuuuuge sex drive that men do, so lesbians don’t want sex without a long term relationship.

This says that a) no women want sex, basically. B) women, without the influence of men, are less sexual.

If you get fat or disabled, no one will want you.

WHY does ‘being fat’ keep being brought up? Or disabled? Out of nowhere??? Can you just not?

The only good sex is in a long term relationship.

I mean…??? No? Communicate with your partner(s), make sure you’re all on the same page, and then proceed from there?

Teens need to be tricked into behaving the way we want to, by being tricksy and indirect. They will rebel if we explain why they shouldn’t do things.

I don’t get why you have this concentration on ONSs, honestly. Explaining to teens how to prevent STDs and pregnancy, that consent needs to be continous and freely given, that any party can remove their consent at any time, having sex doesn’t make you a bad (or uncool) person, and not having sex also doesn’t make you a bad (or uncool) person.

You’ve talked about alcohol, let me share a story. When I was a kid, alcohol was a thing that my parents drank in my house. We got to have a little glass of it, or a sip of their drink. Not enough for us to get drunk, but enough for us to understand that alcohol wasn’t this huge taboo thing that we needed to rebel and indulge in as soon as we could.

I think I had a much healthier relationship to alcohol, because in my house, it was no big deal.

The whole thing was handled really well, I thought. If I had kids, I’d want to handle it the same way.

ANYWAY, it’s late, and I’m too tired to think about this more. I just wanted to cap it off with this:

@Lenona, if how I’ve summarised your points irks you, because I’m saying things openly that you don’t think you’ve said… Why did I interpret it the way I did? What have you said, to make me interpret your words and beliefs like this?

If you’re going to quote something (please don’t quote any more books, we literally can’t look up the context, so you going “BUT THE CONTEXT MAKES THIS MAKE SENSE” is ridiculous.) – please use the blockquote feature. You will need to have javascript enabled for it to show up, but it’s the little button above the window you type in that says ‘quote’. You can either hit that, type what you want, then hit it again to open and close the block quote, or select the words and then hit that button.

It’s super difficult to parse what are your thoughts, and what is a strange quote that doesn’t actually support anything, and we can’t go and check for ourselves, because they are books.

WTF was with bringing up *statutory rape* as an answer to one night stands??? That was SO strange.

Maybe using the *Christian Science Monitor* as a source is uh… not the strongest source you could find. Putting that out there.

LollyPop
LollyPop
1 month ago

God knows we probably don’t need it but my two pennies worth…

1. Boys sleeping with girls and then making fun of them online or elsewhere is not a sex problem, it’s a “teenagers being arseholes” and “entrenched sexism” problem. Adults need to promote a culture for teens where it is seen as more shameful to be a bullying prick than a girl who has sex. You want the good kids (and most especially boys) to feel empowered to say “that’s not on” when they see that kind of behaviour and direct social shame where it is deserved. I think Lenona’s approach would inadvertently do the opposite.

2. Speaking as a person uninterested in ONS and who has felt pressured into unwanted sex in my youth, what I needed to hear in my formative years was “you are a valuable person with sound judgement and instincts, don’t do anything you don’t want to do, here’s a load of tips on building your confidence and learning how to assert yourself”.

A blanket, if indirect, discouraging of casual sex wouldn’t have helped me, but it would have reinforced a damaging shaming culture, alienated other girls who liked casual sex, and subtly perpetuated sexist ideas. The sex ed in my school was very much along the lines of sex = DANGER and mainly led by a well meaning but highly misguided Christian group looking to stop girls (in a indirect manner) having abortions. The resulting sex ed programme was pretty similar to what has been proposed in this thread. Trust me, it didn’t help.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

Is Lenona a troll ? At that point I have vibes of that.

@Snowberry : Qanon is scary. It look like it could generate a fascist religion useful to would be dictators, and as you show it already generate plenty of assaults.

I believe that, even if one believe the conspiracy theory of Qanon, that their actions are still morally bad and not justified. What make them do that is that Qanon isn’t just a set of outlandish belief, but also a twisted moral system, one that is unjustly violent.

It’s one thing to believe that the earth is governed by inherently evil vampires ; it’s another to say that the live of all their supposed dupes is worthless.

kupo
kupo
1 month ago

Oh right, I had a blockquote copypasta around here somewhere.

If you have javascript enabled
Method 1:
1. Copy the text that you want to quote.
2. Paste it into the reply field.
3. Highlight the text.
4. Click the ‘quote’ button.

Method 2:
1. Copy the text that you want to quote.
2. Click the ‘quote’ button; it will insert the opening tag.
3. Paste the text after the tag that was inserted.
4. Click the ‘quote’ button again; it will insert the closing tag.

If you have javascript disabled
1. Copy the text that you want to quote.
2. Type <blockquote>
3. Paste the text after the tag.
4. Type </blockquote>

Ariblester
1 month ago

I wonder if I wasn’t clear enough in a previous message directed at @Lenona suggesting that he use “quote tags” instead of his previous practice of putting a horizontal line at the end of quotes, like this:

This is a quote, but since there is only a paragraph break separating this from the previous paragraph it is hard to understand where the quote starts and ends.
_____________________________________________

I see now that he has switched to using quotation marks:

“This is another quote, but it still is not as clear as it could be.”

Of course (shameless self-promotion) I have also created a tool that allows one to blockquote entire comments on comment threads here, downloadable at the link in my username.

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

Edit option ran out before I could correct some typing and grammar mistakes, I hope it’s still clear enough.

…Huh, now it looks like the whole big comment (which I was referring to here) got eaten by the mammoth. Dang. I hope it shows up again.

Lizzie
Lizzie
1 month ago

@Viscaria, could you maybe clarify a little – so are rainbows made of unicorn poop or am I misunderstanding the science here? Thanking you in anticipation…

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ ariblester

the link in my username.

May I prevail further upon your tech skills and ask, how do you make usernames into links?

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

Tend to avoid walls of text – life’s too short to waste on people who can’t be concise – but I got bored and had a stab at summing up Lenona’s posts.

Best I can make out, they boil down to: “Ma! Nanna’s watching Fox again!”

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

Okay, seems my earlier comment has indeed been irrevocably eaten by the comment mammoth, so I’ll try to do it again, and maybe will manage to be a bit more succinct this time around (although I make no promises :-/ sorry in advance if it’s too long).

I agree with LollyPop and Lainy (and probably others, this thread is such a mess I must have missed stuff) that Lenona seems to be seriously overcomplicating things, and agree with others who’ve pointed out problematic aspects. And a lot of the suggestions Lenona made for sex ed classes don’t even necessarily have much to do with sex ed – for example the bit about not having to get drunk to have fun is perhaps good general advice, but any aspect of it that has anything to do with sex would be better covered by other aspects of teaching about sex.
So, to put my money where my mouth is, here’s a general concept of what I personally would like to see in sex ed classes:

– Details about biology, including sexual and gender identity. This will include exploring your own body and your own pleasure, while not ignoring the fact that some people feel dysphoria about their own body, and giving resources to help deal with that.

– Details about STDs, pregnancy, contraception and protection; not in a “sex is bad because you can get an STD or get pregnant, don’t have sex!” kind of way, but just supplying information, and again, giving resources about how to deal with it. This part will include information about the different kinds of available contraceptives, how to use them, how not to use them (e.g. how wearing two condoms is actually less safe than wearing one), how to get them, etc.; it will also include information about various forms of protection that is relevant to more than just PiV sex, like dental dams or Truvada.
(Side note: I think that teenagers actually react better to direct information than to various attempts to be “sneaky” and give it indirectly, as long as it’s not given in a way that is condescending or fearmongering and is more along the lines of “here are some things you might run into, here are some ways to deal with them safely and some resources you can turn to”.)

– Presenting sex as a fun activity that people do together; this is a rather wide umbrella that includes several sub-topics, such as:
(a) It’s okay to have sex. It’s also okay not to have sex, for any reason, because people can have fun in different ways. (This part should deal with things like slut-shaming, virgin-shaming, asexuality, peer pressure, etc.)
(b) Everyone involved should be having fun. (This part should deal with aspects of both consent and the importance of open communication, and greatly expand on both.)
(c) There are different ways to have sex, and different things that people see as sex, not just PiV. (This part should at least touch on the topic of fetish and kink, to de-shame them and offer resources where folks could learn about them in a safe and positive way.)

And that’s the basis. All the stuff about romance and relationships and feelings could either be included under one of the above topics (such as communication, shaming, etc.) or could be dealt with in other contexts that teach general life skills, rather than in sex ed specifically.

I might have left stuff out, and I’m sure others here could point out various possible additions or tweaks, but as a basis I think this is what I wish I had learnt in school.

Ariblester
1 month ago

Alan Robertshaw wrote on
August 15, 2020 at 5:26 am:

@ ariblester

the link in my username.

May I prevail further upon your tech skills and ask, how do you make usernames into links?

I put it as the Website in the text box that asks for it in the comments form, though I’m not sure of the process if you are using a Gravatar account.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

Oh, maybe I should have just looked further down.

Test

ETA: Sorry Ariblester. My reading skills are on a par with my tech skills.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

Re: Teaching kids of railway danger

Brits of a certain age will remember those public information films they used to show. Some were truly terrifying (“Dark and Lonely Water” anyone?)

The train one was basically The Hunger Games.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

Alan … I could have done without that particular memory being hauled from the crypt I’d sealed it in, thanks.

😛

That one were actually frightening. Though the film loop we got in school on farm dangers was a bit moreso.

LollyPop
LollyPop
1 month ago

@PennyPsmith

I’m pleased you reposted, I would have missed your comment otherwise.

I agree 100%. I definitely think STI chat should be totally matter of fact and really comprehensive. Too many kids leave school dimly aware of the scary spectre of disease but with no idea where the local sexual health clinics are. Practical, stigma-free advice that directs to relevant services seems like a low bar but unfortunately one that gets missed – mainly because some adults seem to think STIs are a good scare story to promote abstinence (and telling kids how to avoid them/get treated/protect others would be nothing short of encouraging teen sex), instead of what could be a highly manageable public health issue.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ threp

Though the film loop we got in school on farm dangers was a bit moreso.

Why the heck did I go and rewatch that; I live in a rural area where the main industry is farming!

Now if you’ll excuse me; I need to go figure out a way of living my life without ever leaving the house again.

(What is particularly disconcerting is how real those scenes are; and that we never saw those child actors turn up in anything else)

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Penny Psmith

I think that teenagers actually react better to direct information than to various attempts to be “sneaky” and give it indirectly

This is true, as attempts to be sneaky inevitably will fail and they will see it bright and clear, just maybe be annoyed that adults thought they could sneak it past.

Details about biology, including sexual and gender identity. This will include exploring your own body and your own pleasure, while not ignoring the fact that some people feel dysphoria about their own body, and giving resources to help deal with that.

This is the kind of thing I wish I had learned in school. The only sex ed I ever had in school was being shown reproductive diagrams once, we never learned about any actual sex/relationship stuff or this, and I think that maybe if I’d learned about sexuality and gender identity younger I could have come out much younger and wouldn’t have spent as long repressing it.

And I agree re: learning about relationships. Especially information like how to recognize an abusive relationship and how to get out.

@Alan Robertshaw
I stumbled across that particular film a few years ago. The main thing that stuck out to me about it was how its Wikipedia page contained the sentence “Although it is not strictly a public information film, it is often considered to be so by fans of the genre.” I find it a bit funny to think there are fans of 70s PSAs who debate the merits of each one.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

@Alan – Ha! It’s a thought provoker that one. Though when I saw it, one of my mates piped up with “Sir, we still use horses on our farm … ” 🙂

@Naglfar

I’m not what you’d call a devotee of PSAs, but have a certain fondness for this one from WW2:

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ naglfar

I find it a bit funny to think there are fans of 70s PSAs

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